Speaker 1 (04:12):
All rise.
Judge (04:15):
Please be seated.
(04:27)
Calling the case State of Ohio versus Andrew Griffin, case number 25CR46. Mr. Griffin is present in the courtroom with his counsel. The State of Ohio is also present. We are outside the presence of the jury. Mr. Vavra, is there any issues the state of Ohio needs to address?
Mr. Vavra (04:46):
No, Judge.
Judge (04:47):
Mr. Shamansky, same question.
Mr. Shamansky (04:49):
We're good, Your Honor. Thank you.
Judge (04:50):
All right. Then Mr. Gortz, if you'll bring in the jury. Please everyone be seated.
(05:54)
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you remember my orders. Please raise your hand if you had any issues or violations of those orders last night or this morning.
(06:05)
No one has raised their hand. Mr. Vavra, it is still the State's case in chief. Are you ready to proceed?
Mr. Vavra (06:13):
Yes, Judge. State calls Dr. Amanda Fisher.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Dr. Fisher? Raise your right hand, please. Do you swear the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (06:47):
Yes, I do.
Judge (06:47):
Doctor, do you object to being filmed?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (06:47):
No, sir.
Judge (06:51):
Mr. Vavra, whenever you're ready.
Mr. Vavra (06:52):
Thank you, Judge. Tell us your name for the record.
Dr. Amanda Fisher (06:55):
Amanda Fisher, F-I-S-H-E-R.
Mr. Vavra (06:59):
And what do you do for a living?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (07:02):
I am the county coroner and I am a chiropractor.
Mr. Vavra (07:06):
Okay. You have your own business?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (07:07):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (07:09):
Okay. And where is that located?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (07:10):
Barnesville, Ohio.
Mr. Vavra (07:11):
And you also indicate you are the county coroner?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (07:12):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (07:15):
And that is an elected position here in Ohio?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (07:16):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (07:17):
How long have you served in that position?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (07:19):
Almost six years.
Mr. Vavra (07:22):
Can you tell us a little bit about your background, training, education?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (07:27):
I have a Bachelor's of Science degree from Otterbein University in Life Science with a concentration in Molecular Biology. I have a doctorate in Chiropractic from Northeast College of Health Sciences, a residency at Walter Reed National Medical Military Center, and various continuing education courses, training, training through the Ohio State Coroners Association yearly.
Mr. Vavra (07:55):
Are you required to take trainings and certifications for your position as chiropractor?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (08:00):
Yes. A minimum of 16 hours of continuing education every two years by the Ohio State Coroners Association.
Mr. Vavra (08:10):
Are there requirements for you to have training to maintain your position as coroner?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (08:16):
Yes. Sorry. For the coroner, it's 16 hours of continuing education every two years.
Mr. Vavra (08:24):
Okay. What about for your [inaudible 00:08:25]?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (08:25):
For chiropractic, it is 36 hours of continuing education every two years.
Mr. Vavra (08:34):
Can you tell us what are the general job duties of the county coroner?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (08:42):
By definition, the coroner's job is to determine the cause and the manner of death of any crime or any death that is not considered natural. So we can rule a death a homicide, a suicide, natural, accidental, or undetermined.
Mr. Vavra (09:09):
And what do you do to make those determinations?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (09:12):
We will visit the scene where the death occurred, collect evidence, and early on we have to make a decision of whether or not we think this is suspicious. Is there enough information for us to make a determination right then and there, or should we have an autopsy done? Because certain cases, they might be young, they have no health history, there's nothing there to indicate why they may have passed.
(09:41)
So right then and there at the scene of a death, it's our job to determine, can we make a decision right now or do we need to send this person out? Also, we determine, do we need to do toxicology? If we're not going to have an autopsy done, we can do toxicology, which means we draw blood or we draw something called vitreous humor from the eyes and we send that to a lab to test for drugs, alcohol, even prescription medication that they're on.
Mr. Vavra (10:16):
Under what circumstances might you request an autopsy be done? And so we're clear, do you conduct the autopsy?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (10:24):
No. In the State of Ohio, counties that have less than 175,000 people for their population, they do not do autopsies in their county. Smaller counties like Belmont County, we're contracted with one of the larger counties. So Belmont County is contracted with Licking County, which is Newark or Montgomery County, which is Dayton. A forensic pathologist is actually who conducts the autopsies.
Mr. Vavra (10:53):
And under what circumstances might you feel an autopsy is required or necessary?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (10:59):
Anytime that we think something may be suspicious, fire deaths, because oftentimes because of the condition of the body after the fire, we can't make a determination on our own. Again, as I said earlier, if they're young, they have no health history, there's nothing there at the scene to indicate what may have caused this death. Obviously, any type of a gunshot wound where we believe it's a homicide and certain cases where it appears that the death might be accidental, but we can't be sure.
Mr. Vavra (11:39):
I may have asked you this already, but when did you obtain your Doctor of Chiropractic?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (11:45):
July of 2011.
Mr. Vavra (11:46):
Okay. When were you first elected as county coroner?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (11:50):
I was elected in November of 2020. I took office in January of 2021.
Mr. Vavra (11:57):
Okay. So from January 2021 until now, you have served as the coroner?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (12:00):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (12:01):
Okay. So in September of 2021, you were in that position?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (12:05):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (12:05):
Do you recall the date, September 21 of 2021, when you were notified of a fire here in Belmont County and possible deaths?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (12:16):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (12:16):
Okay. Do you recall where you were, what you're doing, what time you received that information?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (12:21):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (12:22):
Okay. And when was that?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (12:24):
My office was first notified at 7:27 AM. 911 dispatch notified my chief investigator who then called to find out what was happening. He then in turn called me. That was at approximately 7:40 AM. I was at my home getting ready for work and getting my children ready for school.
Mr. Vavra (12:47):
And when you say work, is that to go to your private practice?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (12:49):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (12:51):
Okay. Based on that call, what did you do?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (12:58):
My children's school was on the way to the scene, so I hurried them to the truck, dropped them off at their school and proceeded to the scene.
Mr. Vavra (13:09):
And this scene, was this on Trails End Drive in Belmont, Ohio?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (13:12):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (13:12):
Okay. And what information at that point did you have?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (13:18):
I knew that there was a fire with two fatalities.
Mr. Vavra (13:24):
Okay. No other details at that stage?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (13:25):
No.
Mr. Vavra (13:26):
Okay. Did you arrive on scene?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (13:29):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (13:29):
Is it just you from your office or is anyone else there?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (13:32):
My chief investigator had already arrived at 7:49 AM. I arrived at 8:12 AM.
Mr. Vavra (13:38):
Okay. What did you find when you arrived on scene?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (13:46):
When I arrived on scene, there were multiple fire departments there as well as sheriff's deputies. They took me around to the rear of the home to a back deck, and when I walked up to the back deck, there were two decedents lying side by side on their back, face up.
Mr. Vavra (14:08):
And who was it that actually led you back to that area, if you recall?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (14:13):
I believe that it was Ryan Aller.
Mr. Vavra (14:18):
Okay. And he's with the sheriff's office?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (14:19):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (14:21):
Okay. Do you recall how many fire trucks were there or firefighters were there?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (14:26):
There were several. I wasn't focused 100% on that, but I do remember there were folks from Cumberland Trail, Belmont, and Flushing.
Mr. Vavra (14:42):
Were they still actively putting the fire out when you got there?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (14:47):
I did not see fire, but they did still have hoses and were spraying, I believe, probably for hotspots.
Mr. Vavra (14:55):
So you travel around the back and you see two bodies there on the deck?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (14:59):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (15:00):
Were you able to identify genders pretty quickly?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (15:02):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (15:03):
One male, one female?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (15:04):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (15:05):
Did you know the identities yet?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (15:07):
I did not as soon as I arrived.
Mr. Vavra (15:11):
When did you learn that?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (15:14):
When asking, who lives here? Could there be anyone else in the house? I was informed by the sheriff's department that these were the two people who owned the home and lived in the home, and then they told me their names.
Mr. Vavra (15:30):
Okay. Were you given any explanation as to how they got to be in that position and where they were originally?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (15:37):
I was.
Mr. Vavra (15:38):
What was your understanding?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (15:40):
What I was told upon my arrival was that the female decedent had been inside the back doors to the deck, which I was told was the living room, and just off to the right-hand side, one of the first males that worked at a company just over the hill, I believe a towing company, he's also a volunteer firefighter, they were first on scene. I was told that when they made entry, they found someone.
(16:12)
Obviously, they were hoping to be able to save the person, so they drug the female outside. I was told that then later when the firefighters had entered, they found another body that was lying in the living room, but that body was further inside to the... If you were standing at the back doors looking in, off to the right-hand side of the couch. And then they also pulled that gentleman out.
Mr. Vavra (16:43):
So the two had already been moved and removed from the home?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (16:47):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (16:48):
Per your knowledge, had anybody else touched them other than the folks who removed them?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (16:53):
Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Vavra (16:54):
And is that ideal for you that bodies are moved from their position where they may have passed away?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (17:01):
If at all, we prefer that no one move the body from the area where they are deceased. However, in an effort to save someone's life, if you think that they may still have a chance, of course we would want you to move them.
Mr. Vavra (17:18):
Sure. Again, it's not ideal, but here it's completely understandable?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (17:22):
Correct. The gentleman who made entry had no way of knowing that the female was already deceased until he pulled her out of that home.
Mr. Vavra (17:32):
Okay. And was it apparent to you when you arrived that they were deceased?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (17:38):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (17:41):
Okay. What is your role at that point?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (17:44):
Our role at that point is making sure that we are preserving evidence.
Mr. Vavra (17:53):
And were there obstacles to that?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (17:56):
Yes. The weather was not in our favor that morning. It was raining and misting on and off, so you're always concerned. Now, at this point, you have two deceased people out and exposed to the weather and what evidence may be being destroyed by the weather.
Mr. Vavra (18:19):
Are you also, you or your chief investigator, taking photographs?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (18:24):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (18:25):
What do you do that for?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (18:27):
Instances like this, but also to send to our forensic pathologist so they can have an understanding of what the scene looked like, what was going on, because when we send someone for an autopsy, we want that forensic pathologist to also have a clear understanding of the backstory of the death.
Mr. Vavra (18:50):
You take a large number of photos, fair to say?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (18:54):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (18:54):
Okay. And we have limited it here. Judge, at this time, I would ask permission to display Exhibits 136A, B, and C.
Mr. Shamansky (19:03):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge (19:04):
Then you may proceed, Mr. Vavra.
Mr. Vavra (19:06):
And fair warning, these pictures are somewhat unpleasant to look at?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (19:14):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (19:18):
So Exhibit 136A, first of all, if I scan down to the bottom there, we have a date and time. Do you see that?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (19:45):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (19:47):
Is the time of day accurate per your knowledge?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (19:49):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (19:50):
8:17 AM?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (19:51):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (19:52):
And now the date, we have 9/21, but the year says 2022, correct?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (19:56):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (19:57):
Can you just explain why that is?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (20:00):
That is the camera that my chief investigator was using. He had not updated. Sometimes when our cameras go dead completely and we need to recharge them, when we turn them back on, the date can be wrong.
Mr. Vavra (20:17):
Okay. But these were taken on September 21, 2021?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (20:19):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (20:21):
Okay. All right. Now, if I scan back up, can you tell us what we're looking at?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (20:26):
You are looking at the two deceased that were found upon my arrival, the female identified to me as Angela and the male identified to me as Thomas.
Mr. Vavra (20:38):
Okay. And those are the positions that you found them when you got there?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (20:41):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (20:42):
So to the best of your knowledge, when they were removed from the home, that's how they were left?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (20:46):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (20:49):
Okay. State's Exhibit 136B. Can you tell us what we're looking at here?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (20:56):
So you are looking at Thomas lying face down.
Mr. Vavra (21:03):
Okay. And I think in 136A, he is face up, is that correct?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (21:06):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (21:07):
Okay. And at this point, he had been turned over?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (21:09):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (21:09):
Do you know who turned him over?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (21:11):
I do not.
Mr. Vavra (21:14):
Okay. 136C now we are looking at, and that is a closer picture of Ms. Strussion?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (21:20):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (21:20):
Okay. All right. So as a part of your investigation, do you kind of take a closer look at the bodies?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (21:38):
I do.
Mr. Vavra (21:39):
Okay. And tell us what you did here and what you found.
Dr. Amanda Fisher (21:42):
When I first arrived on scene, something that was unusual for me investigating a death was the amount of blood that was present for a fire. Typically, when we have a fire death, we don't see a large amount of blood. Also, the bodies are not as well-preserved usually with a fire death. So when I first arrived on scene, I had an uneasy feeling about the amount of blood that could be seen on the victims.
(22:14)
Also, when I looked inside the home, you could see blood on the floor of what I was told was the living room. That photo, you could see a large amount of blood on Angela's face. So while still trying to preserve as much evidence as possible and not touch the body more than necessary, looking at the blood trail, I started to look through Angela's hair. It was at that time I saw what I believe to be an entry wound on the left side of her head that would've been consistent with a bullet hole.
Mr. Vavra (22:54):
Once that is discovered, do you take any immediate further action with Angela?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (23:01):
I continued to look around that area and then I found a second wound on her forehead.
Mr. Vavra (23:11):
Anything else with Angela at that time?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (23:13):
At that time, I told my chief investigator to go and get his camera because the weather had been bad, so when he had finished his initial photographs, he put his camera back away into his bag.
Mr. Vavra (23:27):
And that was to photograph the wounds that you found?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (23:29):
Yes, because we didn't see those wounds initially, obviously, so I needed him to get closeup photographs of those.
Mr. Vavra (23:37):
What about Mr. Strussion? Did you take a look at him as well?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (23:40):
We did. After we found what we believe to be bullet holes in Angela, we moved to Mr. Strussion, and in our examination, we found also the first bullet hole... What we believed to be a bullet hole in his head.
Mr. Vavra (23:59):
Did you search him further as far as any other injuries or bullet holes?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (24:03):
We did not. We searched the head, but at that time we knew that we were dealing with a potential homicide, so we stop our examination. We call Licking County Coroner's Office to let them know that we're going to need an autopsy for two decedents and why that is.
Mr. Vavra (24:23):
We talked before about when you determine an autopsy might be necessary, right?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (24:26):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (24:27):
So at that point, once you notice the bullet holes or discover them, you make the determination, hey, the situation has now changed?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (24:34):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (24:37):
If it had just been a fire cause of death, would an autopsy have been necessary?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (24:43):
Not always, but each scene is different, and in fire deaths, we do still do autopsies at times to look for things of this nature when maybe a fire could be covering up another crime and we want a body to be X-rayed, to look for a projectile maybe still in the body. So it's very dependent on each scene.
Mr. Vavra (25:19):
Once you determine, hey, we got to get autopsies done, what steps do you take as far as the bodies are concerned? And is it your job to, I guess, take care of the bodies and their transportation and those sorts of things?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (25:33):
Yes, sir. So on scenes like this, the way things work, the coroner's office is responsible for the bodies, the decedents themselves, and anything and everything to do with that. Law enforcement is tasked with securing the scene and the investigation side of what happened leading up to these events.
Mr. Vavra (25:59):
And again, we're talking about what's ideal in situations sometimes, but usually when we're talking about a case like this, BCI comes in?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (26:09):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (26:10):
And typically you want to leave the bodies undisturbed for them to conduct their investigation?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (26:16):
Yes. Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (26:17):
Was that possible here?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (26:20):
Initially, no, because the bodies had already been removed from inside of the home. We were also concerned, again, like I mentioned, about the weather and preserving any evidence that may have been on their bodies. So at this time, Detective Aller called BCI to ask them if it would be okay to put the decedents into body bags to keep them covered until they arrived.
Mr. Vavra (26:48):
Is that ultimately what you did?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (26:50):
We did. Until we got the okay from BCI, we were holding a tarp over top of Angela and Thomas to keep any of the elements from getting on them.
Mr. Vavra (27:07):
In looking at the bodies physically, did anything stick out to you to lead you to believe when these individuals passed away?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (27:20):
Yes. I know the pictures aren't up there, and the thing that stood out first, the blood. Second, they were not in a typical position that we see with fire deaths where they've been burned and exposed to heavy heat. When that happens, the body will be much more charred, but also you'll start to see the bodies go into what's called a pugilistic position.
(27:50)
Sometimes people call that a boxer's position, where as the heat and the fire affect the muscles, the muscles are dehydrated and it causes them to shorten. So when that happens, the joints and the arms draw up, the wrists draw forward. I can't show you because I'm in a skirt, but the legs, the knees start to draw up towards the hips and you'll get a curled position. We did not see that with Angela and Thomas.
Mr. Vavra (28:25):
Were there any other indicators to you as to when they may have passed?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (28:31):
Yes. So with the lack of the pugilistic position, that means from an investigative standpoint, we can use something called rigor to help us determine what the time of death may have been. Rigor is where we check for the stiffening of the joints, and Thomas and Angela, their jaw had stiffened, their upper limbs, their arms had stiffened, but their lower extremities had not went into rigor yet.
(29:03)
Full rigor sets in at approximately 12 hours, comes out at 24 hours. When you see the upper extremities and the jaw, that's a much shorter timeframe, typically eight to nine hours. We did have to take some of the heat elements into consideration, but with the lack of the pugilistic position, you should still use rigor as an indicator for your time of death.
Mr. Vavra (29:35):
Based upon... I'm sorry. Any other factors you were looking into or considering?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (29:41):
No. Again, at this time, after finding the wounds in the head and checking for rigor to help us determine a time of death, we leave the bodies as undisturbed as possible until they go to our forensic pathologist.
Mr. Vavra (29:58):
Based on what you saw, did you actually that day feel comfortable expressing, I think, to Detective Aller when you believed they had passed?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (30:05):
I did.
Mr. Vavra (30:06):
And what was that?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (30:08):
I told Detective Aller that based on my physical findings that day, I believe that the time of death was between 11:00 PM and 2:00 AM.
Mr. Vavra (30:18):
Now, what ultimately happens with the bodies now? We're processing a crime scene at this point, correct?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (30:26):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (30:27):
What did you ultimately do with the bodies?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (30:29):
So at this time, they are in the body bag. We have to make contact with Licking County to make sure that they're able to take the decedents. Occasionally, their schedule is full, so then we go to Montgomery County. We make the arrangements, they tell us when it's okay to bring the decedents to their office. So we prepare that. We had to get a second transport vehicle because our vehicle only transports one body at a time. And we clear the scene at 12:26 PM and go en route to Licking County with the decedents.
Mr. Vavra (31:07):
And they're delivered to Licking County. Is it your understanding that Dr. Lee conducts the autopsies there?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (31:13):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (31:14):
Typically. I know sometimes it's another individual, but...
Dr. Amanda Fisher (31:17):
Dr. Pandey was not yet a forensic pathologist at Licking County at this time.
Mr. Vavra (31:22):
Okay. You deliver the bodies to Licking County for autopsy. Do you have any further role at that point?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (31:33):
With the bodies themselves, no. After they're delivered for autopsy and Dr. Lee conducts the autopsy, our office has to wait for his final report. Once the final report is given to me, I use all of that information plus my own investigation to determine the cause and manner of death. And that cause and manner of death that I determine is what is placed on the death certificate.
Mr. Vavra (31:58):
And in this situation, did you do that?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (31:58):
I did.
Mr. Vavra (32:02):
And what was your determined cause of death?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (32:05):
Homicide was the manner and gunshot wound to the head.
Mr. Vavra (32:10):
For both individuals?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (32:11):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (32:15):
Okay. No further questions, Judge.
Judge (32:16):
Mr. Shamansky, do you have any cross-examination?
Mr. Shamansky (32:21):
Yes. Thank you, Your Honor. Good morning, ma'am.
Dr. Amanda Fisher (32:23):
Good morning.
Mr. Shamansky (32:24):
So you're a doctor of chiropractic medicine, correct?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (32:29):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (32:30):
Not a medical doctor?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (32:31):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (32:32):
And thus you're not able to make findings to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, right?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (32:37):
Incorrect.
Mr. Shamansky (32:38):
Okay. So you can make findings to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, even though you're not trained in medicine?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (32:47):
Actually, doctors of chiropractic have more training in anatomy and physiology, neuroanatomy, pathology, diagnosis and diagnostic imaging, vs. medical doctors have more training in other things such as gynecology, pharmacology, so-
Dr. Amanda Fisher (33:00):
Things such as gynecology, pharmacology.
Samuel H. Shamansky (33:05):
I'm not looking to demean a professional chiropractic, but so you are able to render medical opinions?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (33:12):
Yes, sir.
Samuel H. Shamansky (33:13):
Okay. And you're every bit as well-trained as a medical doctor, just a little differently?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (33:19):
Correct.
Samuel H. Shamansky (33:20):
Okay. You can prescribe medication, right?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (33:22):
No.
Samuel H. Shamansky (33:23):
Okay.
Dr. Amanda Fisher (33:24):
Not in Ohio.
Samuel H. Shamansky (33:26):
Okay. I get it. And ma'am, time of death you said was when?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (33:31):
We estimated time of death between 11:00 PM and 2:00 AM.
Samuel H. Shamansky (33:35):
Okay. So I'm looking, and you of course know Timothy Skinner, your chief investigator, correct?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (33:41):
Yes, sir.
Samuel H. Shamansky (33:42):
Who places time of death at 22:30, that would be 10:30 at night, right?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (33:47):
Yes.
Samuel H. Shamansky (33:48):
And 7:00 AM in the morning?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (33:49):
Yes.
Samuel H. Shamansky (33:50):
And what was your timeframe?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (33:52):
11:00 PM to 2:00 AM.
Samuel H. Shamansky (33:54):
Okay. So you disagree with Mr. Skinner, correct?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (33:59):
I do not. Are you referencing-
Samuel H. Shamansky (34:03):
You can ask me a question. It's okay.
Dr. Amanda Fisher (34:04):
Okay. Are you referencing the report that was sent to Licking County?
Samuel H. Shamansky (34:08):
Yes.
Dr. Amanda Fisher (34:09):
Okay. When we have an autopsy that's being sent to Licking County, prior to them accepting the body, we have to send a report to them outlining our immediate findings and why we're sending the body, or bodies, to them. One of the things that they ask is time of death. At that point, we are still early in our investigation. The 10:30 PM timeframe comes from that is the earliest that we believed that it could have occurred.
Samuel H. Shamansky (34:46):
You keep saying we, I'm sorry.
Dr. Amanda Fisher (34:47):
My chief investigator, Mr. Skinner and I.
Samuel H. Shamansky (34:50):
Okay. I'm interested in, of course, in your opinion.
Dr. Amanda Fisher (34:53):
Yes.
Samuel H. Shamansky (34:53):
And so I get it. You're saying that this autopsy request is authored by your chief investigator, Mr. Skinner, correct?
(35:03)
Yes.
(35:03)
Chief investigator, Timothy R. Skinner, right?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (35:06):
Yes.
Samuel H. Shamansky (35:07):
And he's a medical doctor?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (35:09):
No, he's a certified medical legal death investigator.
Samuel H. Shamansky (35:13):
Okay. So you hire him to assist you with your duties as the Belmont County coroner?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (35:17):
He was already in the position when I was elected.
Samuel H. Shamansky (35:20):
I got it. And you were elected in 2020, right?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (35:23):
Yes.
Samuel H. Shamansky (35:25):
And how many deaths had you been involved with prior to those of the Strussions?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (35:32):
I don't have an accurate number. More than most would have in the size of the county for those nine months. We had a very unusual and busy 2021.
Samuel H. Shamansky (35:45):
Okay. So you've been in office about nine months when this occurred?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (35:48):
Yes.
Samuel H. Shamansky (35:48):
Okay. And again, ma'am, did you author your own report subsequent to that of Mr. Skinner's?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (35:55):
No.
Samuel H. Shamansky (35:55):
Okay. So you haven't authored a subsequent report and you had no further interaction with the bodies of the Strussions to do any type of examination, correct?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (36:08):
Personally, no.
Samuel H. Shamansky (36:09):
Okay. That's all I'm getting at, just what you did personally. And so when you opined about the time of death, we're talking about an opinion that of course differs from Mr. Skinner's, right?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (36:21):
I was going to finish where the 7:00 AM came from, but you asked another question in the middle of my response.
Samuel H. Shamansky (36:29):
Yeah. I'm sorry to have done that. Go ahead, I'm sorry.
Dr. Amanda Fisher (36:31):
Would you like me to continue?
Samuel H. Shamansky (36:32):
Please.
Dr. Amanda Fisher (36:32):
Okay. So the 7:00 AM timeframe came from 7:00 AM is when the smoke was noted to be coming out of the home. So we know that the latest possible time that the death could have occurred was when smoke was first coming out. So our goal is to get the bodies to Licking County as quickly as possible. Again, we're authoring this report before we go en route to Licking County. So we do a broad range. When could the first time of death have occurred to the last? It is completely based on the scene. The first 911 call came in at 7:02 or 7:03 AM, and that is why my investigator chose the range of 10:30 to 7:00.
Samuel H. Shamansky (37:30):
It's indicated that you hypothesized the estimated time of death was between five to eight hours from the fire incident. That's what you told investigators, correct? Or are they incorrect about that?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (37:41):
I told them 11:00 PM to 2:00 AM.
Samuel H. Shamansky (37:46):
Okay. So if there's a report that says you hypothesized, you being, they refer to you as Fisher, the time of death between five to eight hours from the fire suggesting a possible time of death anywhere from 2300 to 0200 on September 20th, 2021 to September 21st, 2021, that's what they're gleaning from your statements, correct?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (38:09):
Yes. 2300 to 0200.
Samuel H. Shamansky (38:13):
To 0200. And lastly, you of course, in this case, you quickly determined there were gunshot wounds, right?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (38:24):
Yes.
Samuel H. Shamansky (38:24):
And so blood, no, but of course you're willing to, under these circumstances, request an autopsy, right?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (38:30):
Yes.
Samuel H. Shamansky (38:31):
And as you indicated, you contract with Licking County because they have a much bigger budget to handle these types of things, right?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (38:37):
Correct.
Samuel H. Shamansky (38:38):
And you don't keep, of course, not that you wouldn't want to, but for budgetary reasons, you don't keep a forensic pathologist on staff, right?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (38:45):
No.
Samuel H. Shamansky (38:45):
Just makes more sense to contract with Licking, right?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (38:48):
That's per Ohio revised code.
Samuel H. Shamansky (38:51):
But I mean, for you as a good steward of the county funds, it's a good idea, right? There's nothing nefarious about it. I mean, you're not the only county that uses Licking, right?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (39:00):
Correct.
Samuel H. Shamansky (39:01):
Okay. And ma'am, while I'm thinking about this, you've been trained in scene preservation and how important it is, correct?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (39:09):
Correct.
Samuel H. Shamansky (39:10):
And naturally when you saw this scene, you knew that preservation had become very difficult because of the fire, correct?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (39:18):
Correct.
Samuel H. Shamansky (39:19):
And as a result, unfortunately, investigators such as yourself and forensic examiners and pathologists have a much more difficult time of making scientific and medical determinations, correct?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (39:34):
Correct.
Samuel H. Shamansky (39:35):
That's all I have. Thank you.
Judge Chris Berhalter (39:36):
Mr. Vavra, any redirect?
Assistant Prosecutor Joe Vavra (39:41):
Dr. Fisher, did you indicate fire was discovered on 7:00 AM?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (39:47):
Yes.
Assistant Prosecutor Joe Vavra (39:47):
And eight hours prior to that would be 11:00 PM, correct?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (39:50):
Yes.
Assistant Prosecutor Joe Vavra (39:51):
And that's what you had told investigators in the earliest possible time that the deaths could have occurred?
Dr. Amanda Fisher (39:56):
Yes, sir.
Assistant Prosecutor Joe Vavra (39:58):
Okay. I have no other questions, Judge.
Judge Chris Berhalter (40:00):
Mr. Shamansky?
Samuel H. Shamansky (40:01):
We're good, Your Honor. Thank you, sir.
Judge Chris Berhalter (40:03):
Mr. Vavra, may this witness be released?
Assistant Prosecutor Joe Vavra (40:05):
Yes, Your Honor.
Judge Chris Berhalter (40:05):
Thank you.
Dr. Amanda Fisher (40:05):
Thank you.
Judge Chris Berhalter (40:20):
Mr. Vavra, the State's next witness.
Assistant Prosecutor Joe Vavra (40:22):
Dr. Jeff Lee.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
Do you swear the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (40:54):
Yes, I do.
Judge Chris Berhalter (41:00):
Doctor, do you object to being filmed?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (41:02):
No, not at all.
Judge Chris Berhalter (41:07):
Okay. Mr. [inaudible 00:41:08]?
Christopher Kinsler (41:08):
Thank you, Your Honor.
(41:13)
Good morning.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (41:14):
Good morning. How are you today?
Christopher Kinsler (41:15):
Very good. Sir, would you state your name and spell your last name?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (41:20):
My name is Dr. Charles Jeffrey Lee, L-E-E.
Christopher Kinsler (41:24):
And where do you work, sir?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (41:25):
I'm the deputy coroner and chief forensic pathologist at the Licking County Coroner's Office in Newark, Ohio.
Christopher Kinsler (41:33):
And how long have you done that job, sir?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (41:36):
Since the summer of 2000, so 26 years now.
Christopher Kinsler (41:41):
Okay. If you would explain for the jury, what does that job entail?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (41:44):
Okay. As a deputy coroner, I am one of several people who take call and are responsible for going to death scenes when we are on call. As the forensic pathologist, I perform all of the forensic autopsies that are necessary in Licking County, and then we take referrals from 10 other counties, or nine other counties around that don't have forensic pathologists.
Christopher Kinsler (42:14):
And in order to do your job, what sort of education do you have?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (42:19):
I graduated from Ohio University College of Osteopathic Medicine in 1992, and then I did a one-year rotating internship at Flint Osteopathic Hospital in Flint, Michigan. That would be from '92 to '93. And then a four-year hospital pathology residency at Beaumont Hospital in Royal Oak, Michigan. That would've been from '93 to '97. And then I did a one-year specialty forensic fellowship at the Medical University of South Carolina in Charleston, and that was from '97 to '98. And that was the end of my training. I worked for two years at the Richmond, Virginia Medical Examiner's Office before I came back here to Newark.
Christopher Kinsler (43:06):
Okay. So in your time in Ohio being employed in this role, has it always been with Licking County?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (43:10):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (43:14):
How many autopsies do you think you've performed?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (43:17):
A little over 7,200.
Christopher Kinsler (43:21):
Have you ever testified as to the results of these autopsies?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (43:24):
Yes, I've testified over 200 times.
Christopher Kinsler (43:26):
Would those be in Ohio state courts?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (43:29):
Probably 190 to 200 of them are in Ohio. The others were in South Carolina and Virginia.
Christopher Kinsler (43:35):
Okay. In any of those testimonies, were you qualified as an expert?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (43:39):
Yes, I think all of them.
Samuel H. Shamansky (43:40):
We'll stipulate he's an expert.
Christopher Kinsler (43:42):
Thank you.
(43:44)
Your Honor, shouldn't say that -- how have you been qualified as an expert? In what field?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (43:49):
Forensic medicine.
Christopher Kinsler (43:51):
Your Honor, let the record reflect that that's what we're stipulating to.
Samuel H. Shamansky (43:59):
No objection, sir.
Judge Chris Berhalter (43:59):
The record shall reflect that.
Christopher Kinsler (44:01):
In your duties, were you asked to perform autopsies of Tom and Angela Strussion?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (44:04):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (44:04):
And do you have any idea when this took place?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (44:10):
Yeah, it was... Well, we were contacted on September 21st of 2021.
Christopher Kinsler (44:17):
And do you know when you did those autopsies?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (44:19):
Yeah, we did Tom's on the 22nd, the next day, and then we did Mrs. Strussion then the day after that on the 23rd.
Christopher Kinsler (44:29):
Okay. I'm going to ask you about Tom's autopsy first. Do you have any idea how old Tom was?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (44:38):
I'm sorry, do I have any idea about what?
Christopher Kinsler (44:40):
How old Mr. Strussion, Tom-
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (44:42):
Yeah, I think he was 52 years old at the time.
Christopher Kinsler (44:43):
Okay. And in your report, you talk about rigor.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (44:49):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (44:49):
Could you explain what that means, what the term rigor means to the jury?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (44:53):
Rigor means the stiffness of the body after death, and it depends on the muscles and what part of the muscle of the body is becoming stiff over time, because after someone passes away, you don't have any rigor for about four hours or so, and then rigor starts, and it usually starts in the smallest muscles, so the fingers and the toes and the jaw, and it works its way up to the larger muscles become rigorous, and they just become stiff because it has to do with how the muscles are decomposing after death. Want me to go through a whole situation?
Christopher Kinsler (45:35):
Does that stiffness change over time?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (45:37):
Yes. So that's what I was going to ask about. Now, all of this assumes a room temperature and a person is fully clothed, but in about 8 to 12 hours, you get all of the muscles fully rigored. We scale the rigor on a scale from one to four, so it gets to be a four out of four in about 8 to 12 hours. And then assuming nothing changes, the person stays there in the 70-degree room, then the rigor will stay at that four out of four level for maybe another 24 hours, 18 to 24 hours, and then the decomposition is still going on and the proteins break down and the rigor becomes less and less. And so after about 36 to 48 hours at room temperature, you will go back to having no rigor.
Christopher Kinsler (46:32):
Okay. Do you recall finding what level of rigor Tom's body was in?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (46:38):
I did at the time. I have my notes here in front of me in my report. I can refer to that to tell you exactly what the levels were.
Christopher Kinsler (46:45):
Your Honor, with the court's permission, can he refer to his report?
Samuel H. Shamansky (46:48):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge Chris Berhalter (46:48):
Yes.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (46:55):
Okay. So like I said, we did Tom's autopsy that following day. On the 22nd, we started at 1:40 PM and his rigor is considered three out of four.
Christopher Kinsler (47:08):
Okay. And is that remarkable to you in any way?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (47:15):
It shows that he is beyond what we call the plateau or the four out of four. He's on his way down, so he has been dead around 36 hours or so in general from what we typically see in someone, again, at a 70-degree room.
Christopher Kinsler (47:37):
Does exposure to heat impact how rigor sets in and how rigor releases?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (47:42):
Yeah, the temperature of the environment definitely impacts it. The warmer the temperature is, rigor starts and everything is just quicker. So someone outside who dies on a park bench in 90 degree August weather, they will go through that rigor much more quickly. If you're in a cooler and you pass away, it really extends it out and makes it last for maybe four or five days before you can complete the entire cycle.
Christopher Kinsler (48:15):
Did you also make observations on Tom's remains as far as livor mortis?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (48:19):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (48:20):
Do you recall what that was?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (48:21):
Yes. So livor mortis is the settling of the blood that you can see on the skin after death. So if I were to die right here and lie face up on the floor, in about 30 minutes, you would see my blood pool onto what's the lowest part of my body because the the heart's not pumping, the blood's not circulating at that time. So it's just sitting there in a pool and you would be able to see that on my back.
(48:50)
So it will stay in that position for about 18 to 24 hours and then it becomes fixed. If you were to roll me over before those 18 to 24 hours, then it would move down to the front of my body because that's still the lowest part due to gravity. But after about 18 to 24 hours, that's when the blood has congealed, started to decompose, and break apart enough so that the red staining in the hemoglobin sticks to the inside of the blood vessels.
(49:27)
So you could roll me over and that stain, that red color won't change and won't move because the blood's not mobile anymore and some of those stains are adherent to the inside of the blood vessels.
Christopher Kinsler (49:43):
Do you recall what your observations were on livor mortis on?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (49:48):
Yes. The livor I noted was red and fixed and posterior, so on his back.
Christopher Kinsler (49:54):
Does that suggest anything to you?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (49:56):
The on his back part is most due to him lying on the gurney or on the floor for several hours from whenever he was transported up to our office, lying in the cooler overnight until we saw him the next day. It is on the back of his body. The fixed part means, again, at least 18 to 24 hours have gone by since he had passed away.
Christopher Kinsler (50:23):
You're not-
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (50:23):
And the redness, I'm sorry. The redness is due to a combination of either carbon monoxide in his system or the coldness of our cooler. Typically, people are purple or reddish purple at room temperature.
Christopher Kinsler (50:41):
So I think in your answer you mentioned that it suggests he was on his back on the gurney. Does it tell you anything about how his body was found?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (50:49):
No. If you wanted to see that or know most about that, that would be examining him at the scene as soon as you find him to see if the lividity matches his position in which he is found.
Christopher Kinsler (51:04):
Did you observe burn injuries on Tom?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (51:08):
Yes, he had a few burn injuries. On his right hand, he had a lot of burn with most of the skin peeling away. He had some burns on his right hip area and the fronts of his thighs. He also, he had what we call heat injury where it's like a severe sunburn and your skin starts to peel away and that's just from the heat, the heat of the fire. And there's some red coloring underneath where that skin has burned away, or not burned away, peeled up.
Christopher Kinsler (51:42):
Does that suggest anything to you about the body's proximity to fire?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (51:45):
Just that it was close to a significant heat source, but then the burning part, at least part of his right thigh, or right hip and tops of thighs actually was in contact with some fire to get it burned.
Christopher Kinsler (52:03):
Did you make mention in your report of charring or charring skin?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (52:06):
That's what I was talking about on the thighs and the hip, yes.
Christopher Kinsler (52:10):
And does that-
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (52:10):
And the hand too.
Christopher Kinsler (52:13):
And I think you answered this, but does that suggest something to you about the body's proximity to fire?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (52:17):
Yeah, that is where fire is actually touching and burning those parts of the skin.
Christopher Kinsler (52:29):
In your autopsy, do you look at things like the nose, the esophagus, the throat?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (52:36):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (52:37):
And you're aware, obviously when Tom's remains were presented to you, you were aware that there was a fire, is that correct?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (52:44):
Yes, that's what we were told originally, that there was a fire and possibly some gunshots.
Christopher Kinsler (52:49):
Okay. Did you examine things like his respiratory system for the presence of soot or the presence of smoke?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (52:55):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (52:56):
And what areas are we talking about that you look for?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (53:00):
Well, when you first look, you can get a good idea by looking at the edges of the nostrils, the inside of the lips, the gums and the teeth before you do anything else. He had soot a little bit, but more on his hand rather than his face. He certainly didn't have anything on the inside of his lips or gums or more than just at the edge of the nose. Then when we open him up, we are able to look at the entire airway from the back of the throat down into the lungs. Sometimes soot will get in your esophagus and he did not have any soot in any of those places.
Christopher Kinsler (53:45):
And I heard you mention nose. I heard you mention esophagus. Do you look at his lungs as well?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (53:52):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (53:53):
And did you find any evidence of soot?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (53:54):
No. No soot in what we would call the airway, the trachea, the larynx, the bronchi, the lungs, no soot anywhere like that.
Christopher Kinsler (54:02):
Does that absence of soot in those airways or in the respiratory system suggest anything to you?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (54:07):
Yes. That he was deceased before he was able to breathe in any soot or smoke from the fire.
Christopher Kinsler (54:18):
Have I failed to ask you about anything? Well, have we covered everything in terms of burn injuries to Tom's body?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (54:26):
I think so, yeah.
Christopher Kinsler (54:28):
Okay. In addition to burn injuries, you observed bullet wounds?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (54:31):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (54:31):
Okay. How many... Do you recall how many bullet wounds?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (54:35):
Three separate bullet paths.
Christopher Kinsler (54:40):
Okay. And I'm going to ask you about wound number two. We're going to show 132H.
Samuel H. Shamansky (54:50):
No objection, Your Honor.
Christopher Kinsler (54:51):
This is State's Exhibit 132H. Do you recognize this, sir?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (55:07):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (55:09):
Do you have a pointer up there with you?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (55:11):
I've got this. I've got... I've got my own. I don't know what you can-
Christopher Kinsler (55:17):
If you need it there, but obviously if you're... You're welcome to refer to the one that's close, screen closer to you, whichever's convenient, but if you don't mind, if you see something you need to point out to the jury, please don't hesitate to use that pointer. What are we looking at in 132H?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (55:31):
So what we're looking at here is the back of Tom's skull and head. Here you can see his right ear. So this is the back right part. This is of the burn... Not burn, that's where the skin is peeled off with the heat damage that I was mentioning before where it's turned red on his back of his neck and upper back, I guess. And then right here where this arrow is pointing, that is an entrance gunshot wound.
Christopher Kinsler (55:59):
And what is an entrance gunshot wound, for the jury?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (56:02):
It means where a bullet has entered the body.
Christopher Kinsler (56:06):
And how do you determine a wound is an entrance wound?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (56:09):
Well, most of the time the bullet wound is either going to be nice and round and sort of cut out like this, like if you were cutting biscuits or cookies. Sometimes it's star shaped, but there are different ways to determine if there is obvious gunpowder on the skin edges or what we call stippling around the skin from gunpowder hitting the skin while it's burning. Those are only seen in entrance wounds. Once you get inside and look at the skull, then you can definitely tell if a wound that you see is an entrance or an exit.
Christopher Kinsler (56:53):
And when you say when you look at the skull, why is that?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (56:56):
Because the skull has a certain thickness and the bullet comes out of the gun spinning and twirling like a football, when you throw a football, and it acts kind of like a drill as it's going through the skin and the body. And so when it hits the skull, it sort of drills out a hole about the size of that bullet. On the outside of the thickness of the skull, that hole is right about the same size as a bullet if you were to test it with the same size bullet. As it goes through the skull bone, it splits like in the shape of a cone. So on the inside or the other side of that skull bone, the hole has a bigger, larger diameter. So if you just have a piece of skull bone that a dog finds out in the woods or something, you can tell which is the entrance and which... If this is the entrance or the exit, depending on what the hole looks like, it is going through the skull.
Christopher Kinsler (57:54):
I heard you mention stippling. Can you explain to the jury what that means?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (57:58):
Yeah, sorry about that. So as a gun fires and a bullet comes out, most of the gunpowder is used up in the explosion to force the gases to force the bullet out. Some of it isn't, and so that gunpowder follows the bullet out and is burning. It is very light. We're talking... I mean, the word is powder. So it's really light and it will travel a certain distance with that pressure until it's just too light and it falls to the ground. So if there is a piece of skin between the end of the gun that is close enough for those burning pieces of gunpowder to hit the skin, then they are still burning and they can make little tiny red or black or brown dots on the skin. And that can give you a general idea of the range of fire. If there's no stippling, you know that there's either a contact wound because all the gunpowder went in the skin and didn't hit it, or it's farther away than three feet or so or more because there's too much room for the gunpowder to fall to the ground and not reach the skin.
Christopher Kinsler (59:17):
Did you observe stippling in this wound?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (59:19):
No, I did not.
Christopher Kinsler (59:20):
Is that complicated at all by the fact that there was a fire present?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (59:24):
Because of the soot, as you can see on his jaw and back of the neck, that grayish black sort of powdery, all of this is soot from the fire and there's no way I can tell if what I see there as soot is from the gunpowder or from the fire.
Christopher Kinsler (59:45):
Okay. What was the path of this bullet?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (59:52):
So this bullet went through the right back portion of the skull, as we can see. It then went through the right side of the brain, the brain stem, and then into the left side of the brain. And then we recovered that bullet in the left side of the brain.
Christopher Kinsler (01:00:13):
Can you show me 123... Or I'm sorry, 132L or no, excuse me. I want to show 132I, Your Honor.
Samuel H. Shamansky (01:00:24):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge Chris Berhalter (01:00:26):
You may proceed.
Christopher Kinsler (01:00:28):
State's Exhibit 132I, do you recognize that?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:00:32):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (01:00:33):
And what are we looking at here?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:00:34):
This is the bullet that I recovered from inside the left side of the brain on Tom that matches the pathway and the entrance that we just saw on the previous slide.
Christopher Kinsler (01:00:55):
And this projectile, what did you... What do you wind up doing with that?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:00:59):
I end up giving it to one of the sheriff's detectives so he can take it to be analyzed by a forensic scientist.
Christopher Kinsler (01:01:09):
Okay. Is it fair to say that in the course of your autopsy, you gather exhibits like... Well, not exhibits, but evidence like this throughout the autopsy?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:01:19):
Yeah, that's part of the exam, necessary parts of the exam, trying to determine the cause of death and the manner of death and any kind of piece of evidence that... Well, piece of biological or other things that might be evidence in such a case.
Christopher Kinsler (01:01:39):
What do you typically do with that evidence after the autopsy?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:01:42):
After the autopsy, if there is a detective there, then we package it up and sign it off to the detective so that he or she can take it to whatever forensic testing facility that they want. Usually it's BCI, but some of them have their own testing facility. If they're not there, then we package it up and keep it until they show up. Sometimes, like when we have bloody clothing, it needs to dry until you can package it, and so we will keep it for two or three days, maybe four days and let it dry and then package it and give it to the detectives.
Christopher Kinsler (01:02:21):
Okay. Your Honor, may I approach the witness? It's my intention to show him State's Exhibit 63.
Samuel H. Shamansky (01:02:26):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge Chris Berhalter (01:02:27):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (01:02:28):
Thank you, Your Honor. I'm going to show you what's been marked as State's Exhibit 63.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:02:48):
Okay.
Christopher Kinsler (01:02:49):
Do you happen to recognize that?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:02:52):
No, this is not any of my initials or writing.
Christopher Kinsler (01:02:57):
Are you familiar with that sort of packaging? Have you seen it before?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:02:59):
Oh yeah. We have some of these packages. It depends on what the evidence is. We have smaller ones, we have larger ones, but yeah, this is a common envelope that we use.
Christopher Kinsler (01:03:18):
Do you mind opening that?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:03:20):
No. Is there any particular place you want me to open it? There's a bunch of evidence stickers all over it.
Christopher Kinsler (01:03:29):
Hold on one second.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:03:30):
Sure.
Christopher Kinsler (01:03:32):
Your Honor, I think we're going to enter into a stipulation.
Samuel H. Shamansky (01:03:36):
Yeah, Judge, we're going to stipulate that the item contained in this envelope matches that which is on the screen.
Christopher Kinsler (01:03:43):
Yeah, the State is satisfied with that stipulation, Your Honor.
Judge Chris Berhalter (01:03:46):
So the parties are stipulating that what's in that package is that or [inaudible 01:03:52] for Mr. Strussion?
Christopher Kinsler (01:03:52):
Yes. State's exhibit 63 and the State's exhibit 132I. 132 is the photograph of the projectile E, and State's exhibit 63 is the actual projectile E.
Samuel H. Shamansky (01:04:05):
So stipulated, Your Honor.
Judge Chris Berhalter (01:04:07):
All right.
Christopher Kinsler (01:04:21):
State, I'm going to show exhibit 132L.
Speaker 4 (01:04:22):
[inaudible 01:04:23].
Christopher Kinsler (01:04:22):
Yes.
Judge Chris Berhalter (01:04:23):
Mr. Shamansky?
Samuel H. Shamansky (01:04:34):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge Chris Berhalter (01:04:36):
Thank you.
Christopher Kinsler (01:04:37):
I'm showing you state's exhibit 132L. Do you recognize this?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:04:41):
Yes. This is one of the X-rays that we took of Tom prior to the autopsy. Whenever there is a potential for we see something that's a penetrating wound, then we take X-rays of that part of the body to determine if there is a bullet still in there or a piece of metal or glass or something that we might get injured on or need to find for evidence. So this is what we call a lateral or sideways X-ray that we took before we did anything else on Tom.
Christopher Kinsler (01:05:16):
So which side of Tom will we be... Where was this X-ray taken from? His right or his left?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:05:21):
It's probably his right, but it doesn't matter. See through the whole thing. But if you look, that large white area right there, that is the bullet that we've been talking about in the last picture.
Christopher Kinsler (01:05:37):
So projectile E?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:05:40):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (01:05:41):
And was there an exit wound associated with that bullet?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:05:45):
No. We try to match up. That's one of the things that's important in gunshot wounds, especially multiples. You need to match up the number of entrance wounds to equal the total of exit wounds plus bullets. So if it has a bullet there, it doesn't have an exit wound.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:06:00):
If it has a bullet there, it doesn't have an exit wound.
Christopher Kinsler (01:06:04):
Outside of what you've just demonstrated for the jury in regard to projectile, are there any other points of interest in that x-ray to you?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:06:16):
No.
Christopher Kinsler (01:06:17):
Okay. I would like to show State's Exhibit 132M, another x-ray.
Mr. Shymanski (01:06:23):
No objection, your honor.
Judge (01:06:29):
You may proceed.
Christopher Kinsler (01:06:40):
Do you recognize State's Exhibit 132M?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:06:43):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (01:06:44):
And what are we looking at here?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:06:46):
So this is also Tom's x-ray. It's a front on, face on view of his head and neck. And we can still see the bullet up here, the large projectile, and then some small fragments beside it. So that, you know, when you add that up and you look at it with the other x-ray, because both of these are just two dimensions, but if you put it together, you can think in your mind as a three-dimensional skull, that bullet is on the left upper portion of the head. So it's in the left part of the brain.
Christopher Kinsler (01:07:23):
And I think you've talked about the path that this bullet took through Mr. Strush's skull. How would you describe the general direction that it went?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:07:35):
Upward and forward. So back to front and to the left.
Christopher Kinsler (01:07:43):
Okay. Was this wound fatal?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:07:45):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (01:07:46):
Would you have any idea how long it would've taken to be fatal?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:07:48):
It would be almost as quick as you can imagine a fatal injury because the bullet went through the brainstem.
Christopher Kinsler (01:07:59):
Okay. I'm going to show you another exhibit marked 132A.
Judge (01:08:04):
Mr. Shymanski?
Mr. Shymanski (01:08:04):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge (01:08:06):
You may proceed.
Christopher Kinsler (01:08:11):
Do you recognize State's Exhibit 132A?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:08:14):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (01:08:15):
And what are we looking at here?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:08:16):
So what we see here is the left side of Tom's face. You can see another gunshot entrance wound from a bullet right here, just in front of his ear. And then we can see some abrasions just below or yeah, below and to the right of his eye and above on his forehead and then just between his eye and nose. There's also one on the nose. If you can make that out, that's another abrasion. And he has one here on the right side of his chin. I don't know if we have another photograph, but he's got another small abrasion on the... I'm sorry, that's the left side. He has another small abrasion on the right side of his nose and the right side of his chin.
Christopher Kinsler (01:08:57):
Okay. And the bullet wound we're talking about that's in front of his ear, which one is that?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:09:09):
I called that wound number one, wound A.
Christopher Kinsler (01:09:15):
Okay. And I apologize if you stated this, do you have an opinion as to that being an entrance or exit wound?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:09:21):
Yes, that's an entrance wound. Again, it's nice and round, circular. This one on the inside of the skull, it doesn't hit a nice, smooth, rounded portion of the skull, so you can't look at that, but we have to match it up to either an exit wound or a bullet. There is no other bullet in his head and we do have another exit wound and it's an obvious exit wound.
Christopher Kinsler (01:09:46):
And we're going to show State's Exhibit 132B.
Judge (01:09:48):
Mr. Shymanski?
Mr. Shymanski (01:09:49):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge (01:09:52):
All right. Thank you.
Christopher Kinsler (01:09:52):
And what are we looking at here?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:09:59):
This is just a closer view of that last gunshot wound, number one.
Christopher Kinsler (01:10:06):
Same question as to this wound as to the prior entrance wound about stippling. Did you observe stippling on this wound?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:10:11):
No.
Christopher Kinsler (01:10:15):
And the fire complicates that evaluation, is that fair?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:10:17):
The fire complicates the soot more than the stippling because you can wipe soot off and the stippling is going to stay there because it's burning gunpowder that actually embeds itself in the skin. So you can take a sponge or a rag and wipe off the soot, the stippling will not go away. So it's not the stippling that the soot is interfering with. It's the presence of soot. Is that soot from the fire or soot from the gunpowder shot?
Christopher Kinsler (01:10:46):
And as far as entrance wound A, was there any stippling present?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:10:50):
No, there was not.
Christopher Kinsler (01:10:52):
Okay. Does that suggest anything to you about the distance the gun was away?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:10:56):
That... Now you would have to test fire the gun, but in typical, if it's a pistol, the fire would've been... Or the end of the gun would've been at least two to three feet away from the skin when it was fired.
Christopher Kinsler (01:11:13):
Thank you. We've been referring to this as wound one, correct?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:11:18):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (01:11:18):
And the first one we spoke about is wound two, correct?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:11:23):
Let me double check. Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (01:11:26):
How do you decide to number the wounds in your report?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:11:31):
Well, you take a look at who you have lying there and I have wounds and I just start at the top of the head. So if I see a wound as I'm coming down, then I just call that one or A, just depending because if it's an obvious entrance wound, then I usually call it a number. But if I can't tell if it's an entrance or an exit right then, then I might call it a letter and then later determine if it's an entrance or exit and call it a number because I want all the wounds to be numbered or I want all the entrance wounds and pathway to be numbered. But if I have five holes on the head, they might be hole A, B, C, D, E, and eventually before I finish, I'll connect them and figure out which one is an entrance, which one is an exit. So it's from the top of the head down to the feet.
Christopher Kinsler (01:12:26):
So the numbering of the wounds is not some sort of judgment of which order they took place?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:12:30):
Not at all. It's just an easy way for me to determine which one I'm talking about. And this was higher up on the head. The other one was actually harder to find because it was on the back and sort of, you know, above his neck, but not as easy to see. This one was the first one you see.
Christopher Kinsler (01:12:50):
Your Honor, I'm going to show the witness State's Exhibit 132F.
Mr. Shymanski (01:12:54):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge (01:12:55):
You may proceed.
Christopher Kinsler (01:13:00):
What are we looking at here, State's 132F?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:13:03):
So this is the entrance wound we've been talking about, number one, just in front of the left ear. And what I've done is put a probe, this silver probe into that entrance wound to show the path that it traveled into his head or through his head.
Christopher Kinsler (01:13:27):
And what was the path of this wound?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:13:37):
So this path goes downward and to the right and forward, and it goes through both of the cheek areas and it exits the right cheek.
Christopher Kinsler (01:13:58):
We'll show this witness 132D, Your Honor.
Judge (01:14:03):
Mr. Shymanski?
Mr. Shymanski (01:14:04):
No objection, Your Honor. In fact, no objection to any of this series of photos.
Judge (01:14:08):
Thank you.
Mr. Shymanski (01:14:08):
Yes, sir.
Christopher Kinsler (01:14:11):
State's 132D, do you recognize this item?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:14:14):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (01:14:15):
And what are we looking at here?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:14:16):
So this is a photograph of the right side of Tom's face and where we have the arrow pointing in the letter B right here. This is an exit wound and it's the exit wound from the previous entrance that we've been talking about.
Christopher Kinsler (01:14:34):
Okay. I think earlier you mentioned there being some sort of injury to the right side of Tom's nose. Do you see that in this case?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:14:42):
Yes, yes. Right here on the right side of his nose here, there's a little bit of an abrasion or a scrape on the right side of his chin. I think this is more on his forehead on the right side.
Christopher Kinsler (01:14:56):
Do we also see a wound marked C in this photograph?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:15:00):
We have an arrow marked C. I don't think we see what it's pointing to quite in this photograph.
Christopher Kinsler (01:15:06):
Okay. Thank you. And was there a projectile recovered from this wound?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:15:17):
No.
Christopher Kinsler (01:15:17):
And Your Honor, I want to show State's Exhibit 132C.
Judge (01:15:21):
You may proceed.
Mr. Shymanski (01:15:24):
No objection, Your Honor.
Christopher Kinsler (01:15:27):
State's 132C, what are we looking at?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:15:30):
What we're looking at is what I thought was another hole, but it's... Once we cleaned him up, you could scrub that off and it was just a dried blood spot. It did not end up being a hole. It sure looks like the other ones though, so that's why I marked it.
Christopher Kinsler (01:15:49):
Would wound two have been fatal?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:15:52):
Not for a long period of time.
Christopher Kinsler (01:15:57):
Okay.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:15:58):
So wound two went through the left side of his face, head area and through his, I guess, cheek and sinuses on the left side and on the right side and exited. So there's certainly going to be a lot of bleeding in his sinuses. It didn't hit a major organ. It would not have hit a major artery or vein, small veins, and he would probably be swallowing a lot of blood, coughing blood, if that was the only thing, blood coming out of his nose and mouth, but there should... He should be able to survive something like that for maybe an hour or two before he lost enough blood to just completely lose too much blood to live. But I've seen people with a shotgun wound to their face that are still alive, that survived to the hospital, they get it treated, and then they have surgery and everything. So I would expect this, if this were the only injury, for him to have survived for quite a long time.
Christopher Kinsler (01:17:04):
And I think I may have misspoke when I asked you the question. The wound you're talking about there that's going from the left to the right through the cheek that you described as not being immediately fatal, which wound number was that?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:17:17):
Number two. Wait, see, I've got to check again. It's wound number one.
Christopher Kinsler (01:17:27):
Thank you.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:17:28):
Yeah, sorry.
Christopher Kinsler (01:17:44):
Okay. Thank you. Was there an additional wound, a bullet wound that you discovered?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:17:52):
Yes, later on. The information we originally got from the coroner's investigator was he was shot in the head. It appeared he was shot in the head and there was a fire. So once we did our x-rays of the head and then we were taking all of our evidence and then we do our external examination and then we unclothe him and he was fully clothed and then we take off his shirt and the back part of his shirt was burned by the fire. So we were doing pictures of it because it's going to be evidence and we rolled him over and we found he had another bullet hole on his right upper back near the armpit.
Christopher Kinsler (01:18:39):
State, I'd like... Your Honor, I'd like to show State's Exhibit 132G.
Judge (01:18:45):
You may proceed.
Christopher Kinsler (01:18:51):
Do you recognize State's 132G?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:18:53):
Yes. So the arrow is pointing right at the gunshot and this is another entrance wound. Again, it's nice and round and circular and it looks like you've taken a thing and cut out a biscuit and removed it. It's a hole. You can't pull the two pieces of skin together and sew it together like you can a lot of times with an exit wound.
Christopher Kinsler (01:19:18):
We talked earlier in your testimony about, and these are my terms, not yours, but kind of heat damage to the body and fire damage to the body.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:19:26):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (01:19:26):
You may have used the word char.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:19:27):
Yeah.
Christopher Kinsler (01:19:28):
Are either of those present in this photo?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:19:30):
We see a little bit of char up here on his shoulder where the black area is. The more reddish brown that we're seeing here, that is heat, heat damage and heat injury.
Christopher Kinsler (01:19:48):
Was there a soot or stippling present with this entrance wound?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:19:51):
No, and I would not have expected it either because he was wearing a shirt at the time and the part of the shirt that burned away is the part that the bullet went through because there was no hole in the shirt. There was a large wedge of the part of the shirt right on his right side of the back that was completely gone from the fire. But if there had been any soot that would... Or stip... Well, there's no stippling, but if there had been any deposition of gunpowder onto that shirt, it would be on the shirt, not the skin, because the shirt is the first thing that that gunpowder would've touched.
Christopher Kinsler (01:20:33):
I'd like to show State's Exhibit 132K.
Judge (01:20:37):
You may proceed.
Christopher Kinsler (01:20:46):
Do you recognize State's Exhibit 132K?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:20:48):
Yes. This is the T-shirt I was talking about. This is the front and you can see it's... I don't know if you can tell, but all of the... It's lying on a white sort of background that we have that's somewhat absorbent. And so this red that you're seeing is the blood that has leaked out of the T-shirt because it was soaking onto the white towel that we're using as a background.
Christopher Kinsler (01:21:16):
And did I understand you to say that parts of the shirt had been damaged, removed, whatever?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:21:21):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (01:21:22):
Any idea how?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:21:23):
I think it's the fire because it looks like... I don't know if we have a picture of that, but it looks like it's an irregular area and it just looks like the material has been burned.
Christopher Kinsler (01:21:34):
Where did this bullet go through the body?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:21:39):
So we saw on the right upper back is where it entered. It then went through... Or it hit rib number five on the right, and then it went through the upper lobe of the right lung, and then it stopped just beside rib number four on the right, on the front. And you could see a bruise on his chest, on his skin, from where the bullet hit the rib hard enough to fracture it and cause a bruise on the skin.
Christopher Kinsler (01:22:10):
No exit wound associated with this?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:22:12):
Correct.
Christopher Kinsler (01:22:15):
Did you recover a projectile?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:22:16):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (01:22:17):
I would like to show State's Exhibit 132J, Your Honor.
Judge (01:22:20):
You may proceed.
Christopher Kinsler (01:22:27):
Do you recognize State's Exhibit 132J?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:22:30):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (01:22:32):
And what is that?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:22:33):
This is the projectile that we were just talking about that entered through the right upper back and it almost exited but did not. It was under the skin and the fatty tissue on the right chest.
Christopher Kinsler (01:22:52):
I asked you about stippling and you indicated that wouldn't be present, assuming the shirt was intact when the shooting happened, that wouldn't be present, correct?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:22:59):
Correct.
Christopher Kinsler (01:23:00):
So you're not in any position to suggest anything or say anything about the range of fire for that wound?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:23:06):
Correct.
Christopher Kinsler (01:23:17):
Your Honor, I think the parties will enter into a stipulation that exhibit one... Or excuse me, exhibit 62 is the same projectile labeled projectile D displayed in State's Exhibit 132J.
Mr. Shymanski (01:23:29):
Correct, Your Honor.
Judge (01:23:30):
All right. That stipulation is so noted.
Christopher Kinsler (01:23:34):
Did you observe blood in the chest?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:23:37):
Oh, yes. Yes. So the bullet, like I said, went through the right... The upper lobe of the right lung, and as it did that, it caused bleeding, and he had 375 ccs of blood, which is about 10 to 12 ounces.
Christopher Kinsler (01:23:55):
Okay. What is the significance of that?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:23:58):
Definitely he was alive because he bled and the heart was pumping and the blood was circulating at that point. It also means that that shot was before the other shot that went through the brainstem, because once the bullet went through the brainstem on that shot, he would've been dead within a couple seconds. So this one had to be prior to that other one that went through the brainstem.
Christopher Kinsler (01:24:27):
Okay. So this wound we're talking about, I believe, is wound number three?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:24:31):
Number three, yes.
Christopher Kinsler (01:24:32):
And I think the first wound we talked about was wound number two?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:24:35):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (01:24:36):
And that was the one I believe you testified would've been immediately... I don't remember your word, but that would've been fatal rapidly.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:24:43):
Yes, within a couple seconds, yes. So to give you an example, if that was the first... If that shot went through the brainstem first, and then this shot went through his chest, through his lung, I wouldn't expect to have more than maybe 20 ccs, whatever was right there and just happened to leak down blood. But because this one has so much 375 ccs, then this was shot maybe a minute prior to the one going through the brainstem, maybe less, but definitely before.
Christopher Kinsler (01:25:22):
Was toxicology also performed on Tom?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:25:25):
Yes, as much as we could.
Christopher Kinsler (01:25:26):
Okay. And why do you say as much as we could?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:25:28):
Because fire and the heat can sort of denature the blood and make it so it's not good for tox testing, because it won't... Sometimes it becomes... Instead of liquid like we all think of blood, it can get like a jelly and depending if it's a really hot fire or it's been in the fire for a long time, it can even evaporate all the fluid and get like a... I don't know, not clay, but a powder that you've packed together and firm. So those specimens won't go through the instrument that it's used. So we were able to get an alcohol level and we tried to get a carbon monoxide level, but that didn't work. And the only thing they found was alcohol in the toxicology.
Christopher Kinsler (01:26:22):
And what was the alcohol level?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:26:25):
Alcohol level for Tom was 0.138, so essentially 0.14.
Christopher Kinsler (01:26:33):
And did you mention there's carbon monoxide testing?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:26:36):
It was done, but the lab gave us the results that says... Let me see... That says unsuitable for analysis. They also... I forgot about this. One other thing that they detected was called products of decomposition. So whenever you have something that says products of decomposition, that means there's been enough degeneration of the blood that it's really hard to detect other drugs and medications that might be in there. Alcohol is different because it's a really small molecule, but most drugs and street drugs and medications are much longer and bigger. And so if there's denaturation or breaking down of the blood, those drugs and medications are going to break down, so the instrument won't be able to detect them either.
Christopher Kinsler (01:27:36):
Why would you be interested in carbon monoxide testing in this case?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:27:40):
Another way to prove if he was alive or dead at the time of the shooting in the fire. If we have a carbon monoxide up to maybe eight to 10%, that might be just because he's a smoker. I don't know if he is or not, but you can have that much and a normal smoker can have that much carbon monoxide in their blood at any time. He's relatively healthy, so if the carbon monoxide was high enough to kill him and the shots were fired afterwards, then the carbon monoxide would be pretty high, 50, 60%, something like that.
Christopher Kinsler (01:28:18):
Now, as part of your process of the autopsy, do you wind up turning over some property from Tom's autopsy?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:28:26):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (01:28:26):
And who did you turn that over to?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:28:31):
Well, you used the term property, so I want to make sure we consider property possessions that are not evidence, and then we have other things that are called evidence that we turn over to the police.
Christopher Kinsler (01:28:46):
Well, let me ask that question in this way. What evidence would he be turned over to law enforcement?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:28:51):
Okay. So we gave them what we call a DNA card. On everyone, we take just a couple of drops of blood and put it on some filter paper and let it dry. Then DNA could be done on that in the future if it's necessary to match something, his DNA. We have the bullet from the brain. We have the bullet from the chest. He had some hair or fibers stuck to some of the blood on his right hand, so we gave them those, and all of his clothes. Two white socks, his gray underwear, and a black T-shirt.
Christopher Kinsler (01:30:45):
[inaudible 01:29:46]. Your Honor, I think the parties are going to enter into a stipulation. We've already discussed, I think, State's Exhibit 62 and 63. In addition, we would stipulate to State's Exhibit 64, a DNA card from Tom. State's Exhibit 65, hair and fibers from Tom. And I believe that's... Well, also State's Exhibit 74, which I believe are closed from Tom.
Mr. Shymanski (01:31:16):
So stipulated, Your Honor.
Judge (01:31:19):
Stipulation is noted.
Christopher Kinsler (01:31:38):
Did you formulate an opinion as to the cause of Tom's death?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:31:41):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (01:31:42):
And what would that have been?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:31:43):
Multiple gunshot wounds to the head and back.
Christopher Kinsler (01:31:47):
I don't think I asked you this. I apologize. The wound to the back that we described, would that have been fatal?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:31:53):
Eventually. He had 375 ccs of blood in his chest, and again, if that were the only shot, he would've been continued to bleed until he got help, but he would probably need to have some significant help and treatment within about five minutes or so. Typically, if we see someone who dies from a gunshot wound that it's due to bleeding, it's about a thousand or 1200 ccs, maybe 1500 ccs before the person dies. So he's only about a quarter of the way there, 20% of the way there on his loss of blood to where the loss of blood is too much that his brain and heart can't keep functioning without that oxygen.
Christopher Kinsler (01:32:46):
I want to ask you now about Angela's autopsy.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:33:00):
Okay.
Judge (01:33:26):
Parties approach.
(01:33:26)
... the case. So Mr. Gorns will take you back there again. It's 10:30, about 15 minutes, and we'll resume.
Speaker X (01:33:36):
No, Your Honor.
Judge (01:33:54):
Mr. Shymanski?
Mr. Shymanski (01:34:16):
We're good, Judge. Thank you.
Judge (01:34:30):
Okay. Then we are going to take a 15-minute recess.
Speaker 5 (01:55:30):
[inaudible 01:55:17] the last one. 72020407.
Speaker 6 (01:55:30):
[inaudible 01:55:59].
Speaker 7 (01:56:01):
All rise.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (01:56:04):
Please be seated.
(01:56:14)
We are back on the record in State of Ohio v. Andrew Griffin. Mr. Griffin is present in the courtroom with his counsel. The State of Ohio is also present as well as the jury. Dr. Lee, I'll remind you, you're still under oath.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:56:27):
Okay.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (01:56:28):
And State of Ohio may proceed.
Christopher Kinsler (01:56:30):
Thank you, Your Honor.
(01:56:38)
Before I move on to Angela's autopsy, on Tom's autopsy, you mentioned bruising on the face.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:56:45):
Abrasions. There were abrasions on his face, yeah.
Christopher Kinsler (01:56:48):
Describe for me, what are abrasions?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:56:50):
Abrasions are superficial scrapes of the skin, like, if you were to fall down and hit your knee on a sidewalk or your elbow, whatever, that's an abrasion. So it's a scrape.
Christopher Kinsler (01:57:03):
And based on what you've testified here today, do you have any idea if those would've occurred before or after Tom's death?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:57:09):
They're definitely before death. They look completely different after death. They're a dark brown color and they were within no more than four to six hours prior to his death. Once you get an abrasion, then usually within four to six hours, you will start having a scab start to form on it. And these did not have any scabbing formations.
Christopher Kinsler (01:57:36):
I want to move on to Angela's autopsy. Do you recall when that took place?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:57:42):
Yes, that was 9:15 AM on the 23rd of September in 2021.
Christopher Kinsler (01:57:49):
Do you recall what was Angela's age?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:57:51):
Yes, she was 49 years old.
Christopher Kinsler (01:57:53):
And I want to ask you the same question we asked about Tom. Do you make an observation in every autopsy about rigor?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:58:02):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (01:58:03):
And did you do so in her case?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:58:04):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (01:58:05):
And what was that?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:58:08):
So I mentioned before the scale from one to four, or actually it's zero to four, and that's in the major muscle groups. So the jaw, the neck, the arms and legs, so essentially the elbows and the knees. Hers were not ... His, Tom's was three out of four in all of those groups. Angela's was three out of four in the jaw, three out of four in the neck, and zero out of four in the arms and legs. And that's because her rigor is further gone along in time than his, and she is coming out of rigor because her autopsy was, what, 18 hours after his, something like that. So it's what we would expect.
Christopher Kinsler (01:58:53):
Okay. And same question I had for you about lividity. Did you observe that or whichever term you prefer? [inaudible 01:59:00]-
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:59:00):
Yeah, her lividity was the same as his. It was red and it was fixed in place and it was on her back.
Christopher Kinsler (01:59:08):
Okay.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:59:08):
But again, she had been lying on the gurney now for ... Well, they had been at our office since 3:00 PM on the 21st, so nearly 48 hours for her.
Christopher Kinsler (01:59:20):
Did you observe any of the either heat or fire damage that we talked about in Tom's autopsy?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:59:27):
Yeah. Now, she had no direct burning of the fire that would cause the skin to burn and turn black, but she did have heat effects where the skin is starting to peel off and it's red underneath, and she had deposit of soot on her face and on her hands.
Christopher Kinsler (01:59:48):
Do you recall where the evidence that heat damage was on her body? Or ...
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (01:59:52):
It was intermittently on lots of different parts of her body, but it seemed to be more so on her right side than her left side. Right arm, right leg, right hip, right abdomen, right side of the face, more so than on the left.
Christopher Kinsler (02:00:07):
Does the absence of that blackened skin or charring indicate anything to you?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:00:12):
It just means that the fire was not in direct contact with her skin at any time.
Christopher Kinsler (02:00:19):
Did you observe any injuries aside from the burning injuries that we discussed? Did you observe any other injuries on Angela?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:00:27):
Yes. She also had three gunshot wounds and they were all to the head.
Christopher Kinsler (02:00:32):
Okay. I think I want to start with wound number three. Your Honor, I would like to publish State's Exhibit 133B.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:00:40):
And Judge, we're going to have no objection to everything that Mr. Kinsler wishes to show to the jury in this next sequence and examination of Dr. Lee.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (02:00:47):
Thank you. You may proceed.
Christopher Kinsler (02:00:50):
State's Exhibit 133B. Do you recognize that?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:00:53):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (02:00:53):
What-
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:00:55):
This is an entrance gunshot wound where the arrow is pointing right there beyond her left scalp area, just in front of her ear. And again, this looks just like the others that we saw on Tom, round and small and smooth bordered, so it's an obvious entrance wound.
Christopher Kinsler (02:01:17):
Okay. I'd like to show you State's Exhibit 133C. And what are we looking at in 133C?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:01:28):
That's the same wound. It's cleaned up a little bit better.
Christopher Kinsler (02:01:31):
Did you observe stippling or soot on that wound?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:01:34):
No.
Christopher Kinsler (02:01:37):
Does that suggest anything to you about the proximity of the gun?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:01:41):
Again, if the stippling were there, it would be within two to three feet. You can wipe the soot away and the soot might be ... There was soot on the side of her face, but that might be from the fire or it might be from gunpowder and there's no way for me to tell one from the other.
Christopher Kinsler (02:01:58):
What was the wound path for this wound?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:02:02):
This wound goes through the left side of her brain and then her brain stem, and then it strikes the inner right side of her skull. In the bottom of the skull, if you've ever seen a skull, there's a hole in the bottom about that big around. It's called the foramen magnum, and that's where the brainstem goes through down to your spine. Well, the bullet was essentially just jammed, stuck in that part of the bone of the foramen magnum, which is right beside the brainstem.
Christopher Kinsler (02:02:38):
Okay. Did you recover a projectile from that wound?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:02:41):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (02:02:42):
Yes. I'd like to show State's Exhibit 133F, Your Honor. Do you recognize State's 133F?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:02:55):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (02:02:56):
And what is that?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:02:57):
This is the three fragments of bullet as we were pulling it out of the brain, whether it was fragmented before we pulled it out or as we were pulling it out, it broke. But this is the main fragment, and these two were right beside the main fragment in the bone.
Christopher Kinsler (02:03:14):
What was the direction through the body of this wound?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:03:19):
It is downward and it's slightly backward, and then it's from left to right.
Christopher Kinsler (02:03:28):
Would this wound have been fatal?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:03:29):
Definitely. It went through the brainstem, just like one of Tom's went through his brainstem.
Christopher Kinsler (02:03:35):
So do you have any idea as to how quickly it would've been fatal?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:03:39):
Extremely quickly, a couple of seconds.
Christopher Kinsler (02:03:43):
I want to ask you about wound one, and I want to show you State's Exhibit 133A. Do you recognize State's Exhibit 133A?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:04:00):
Yes. This is a photograph of the right side of her head. You can see we've shaved away some of the hair on her scalp, and we can see here two entrance wounds, one on the scalp that's more regular, like we've been talking about, pretty round and regular, and then one here on her forehead, which is irregular, and it's got a large bruising around it.
Christopher Kinsler (02:04:29):
Is it your opinion these are both entrance wounds?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:04:31):
Definitely, yes.
Christopher Kinsler (02:04:32):
Okay. And speaking of entrance wound labeled A, was there soot or stippling present in that wound?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:04:43):
No.
Christopher Kinsler (02:04:46):
What was the pathway for that wound?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:04:53):
That one is, let's see here, downward and it goes forward, so more forward into her head and from right to left.
Christopher Kinsler (02:05:07):
And did you recover a projectile for that wound?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:05:10):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (02:05:12):
I'd like to show State's Exhibit 133D. Do you recognize State's Exhibit 133D?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:05:24):
Yes. This is two fragments of the bullet. It obviously broke into two at some point, and they were right beside each other in the left side of the brain. It had passed through the right side of the brain into the left side of the brain.
Christopher Kinsler (02:05:45):
Would this wound have also been fatal?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:05:48):
Yes, it would've. Not nearly as quickly as the other one through the brain stem, but maybe five to 10 seconds, you would expect no more than that if that were the only shot.
Christopher Kinsler (02:06:01):
In this wound, we looked at the photograph, and I think you testified there wasn't either soot or stippling present. Does that inform you anything about the proximity of the gun?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:06:13):
Again, it has to do ... Usually it's going to be two to three feet away. Sometimes that's complicated with someone with thicker hair, because if you have a thick amount of hair and a bullet or a gun is relatively close, the soot could get into the hair before it hits and strikes the skin, and you may not see any stippling on that.
Christopher Kinsler (02:06:39):
And you described ... Well, could you return to 133A? On 133A, I think you talked about the wound in the forehead marked B.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:06:52):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (02:06:53):
Okay. Is that also an entrance wound?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:06:54):
Yes, it is.
Christopher Kinsler (02:06:55):
Okay. And was soot or stippling present in that one?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:07:00):
No.
Christopher Kinsler (02:07:04):
And was a ... What direction did that wound go?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:07:09):
The bullet is right under the skin, so essentially it's slightly upward, slightly backward, and slightly from right to left, because you can see there is ... It's obviously bigger than this other and the other entrance wounds because it has gone in probably right here and has slid on the skull upwards and to the left there. It did not fracture the skull and it did not go into the head any further than just the skin.
Christopher Kinsler (02:07:51):
Please show State's Exhibit 133E. Do you recognize State's Exhibit 133E?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:08:02):
Yes. So this is distinctively different than the others that we've been looking at. Any of you that have seen a bullet or does any shooting, you can tell that this round part here is the base of the bullet, and as it went into the skin and hit the skull, it sort of just flattened out against the flat skull.
Christopher Kinsler (02:08:27):
Would this wound have been fatal?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:08:29):
No. It would be like if you had fallen and hit your forehead on the corner of a table or desk or something, it would bled a lot, probably pretty bad headache, but that was it. That would be it. Like, if you had been hit maybe, or had fallen and had ... You might have a concussion if that were the only injury, but that's as far as it went.
Christopher Kinsler (02:08:56):
So from Angela's autopsy, you recovered three projectiles?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:08:59):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (02:09:00):
A, B, and C. And you also recovered nail scrapings and cuttings?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:09:08):
I'm pretty sure. Let me just verify that. We did very similar evidence on both of these. Yes. Nail scrapings and cuttings from both hands. And she had some hairs on her right hand as well, stuck into the blood that was on her hand.
Christopher Kinsler (02:09:31):
And the hairs, did you also provide those?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:09:36):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (02:09:37):
And did you also provide a DNA card?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:09:39):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (02:09:40):
I don't recall if I asked you on Tom's exam, but what is a DNA card? How do you prepare it?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:09:44):
Yeah, it's very simple. It's just a couple of drops of blood that we put on a filter paper and allow the filter paper to dry. And then once it has dried, the DNA is good on it for the foreseeable future, for decades. So if anything comes up in the future, then a lab can take that dried blood and test it against whatever the other evidence is to see if it's a DNA match. So it's essentially to show a DNA match between Angela and something else.
Christopher Kinsler (02:10:16):
And would you have also collected whatever clothes were on her body?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:10:19):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (02:10:20):
And then those items, the three bullets, the two different nail scrapings, the hairs from hand, the DNA card, the clothes, would those have all been provided to law enforcement?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:10:30):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (02:10:31):
Was toxicology also performed on Angela?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:10:34):
Yes, it was. And we had the same, a similar problem with her. The only thing that they were able to find was alcohol in her blood of 0.208, so essentially 0.21. They also found those products of decomposition and they said they didn't have enough blood to run a carbon monoxide level on her.
Christopher Kinsler (02:11:06):
So you weren't able to do carbon monoxide testing on the-
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:11:09):
Right. The lab said they didn't have enough blood to do it.
Christopher Kinsler (02:11:11):
Also, I want to ask the same question I asked about Tom. In Tom's autopsy, you described looking at airways, I think inside the nose, inside the throat, esophagus, lungs. Did you do all that in Angela's autopsy?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:11:24):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (02:11:25):
Were you able to find evidence of smoke inhalation in her autopsy?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:11:29):
No, not at all. And it was, I guess you'd say more distinctive or drastic on her because she did have soot from the fire on her face, but she did not have any on her inside of her lips or her gums or her tongue or the inside of her nostrils. So definitely we know there was soot in the general area of her face, but we don't have any soot inside to show that she was breathing when that soot was around her face. The airway, the trachea, the back of the throat-
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:12:00):
... the airway, the trachea, the back of the throat, the larynx, voice box, the bronchi, the lungs, and the esophagus, none of those had any soot.
Christopher Kinsler (02:12:11):
Does that suggest to you anything about her death in relation to the fire?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:12:15):
Yeah. Again, like Tom, that she was definitely deceased and not breathing before the fire and the smoke got to her.
Christopher Kinsler (02:12:23):
Were you able to formulate an opinion as to her cause of death?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:12:26):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (02:12:27):
And what was it?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:12:28):
Multiple gunshot wounds to the head.
Christopher Kinsler (02:12:31):
And am I correct to clarify, I think the first wound I talked to you about was wound three, and I believe you said that would be fatal in a very short period of time.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:12:40):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (02:12:41):
And then I think wound number one, was that also fatal?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:12:46):
Yes. Also, very quickly, just not as quick as the other one.
Christopher Kinsler (02:12:49):
And I think wound number two, you indicated what as far as that being fatal?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:12:54):
Definitely not fatal.
Christopher Kinsler (02:12:55):
Okay. Your Honor, I think we have a stipulation on some of the exhibits from Angela's autopsy. Those exhibits, the state would be proposing are Exhibit 66, 67, and 68. Each of those are bullets recovered from Angela's skull and autopsy.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:13:23):
So far, yes, Your Honor. There's some more.
Christopher Kinsler (02:13:26):
69 and 70 are fingernail scrapings from left hand and right hand.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:13:33):
Those are so stipulated, Your Honor.
Christopher Kinsler (02:13:35):
And it's state's Exhibit 72 is a DNA card from Angela.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:13:39):
So stipulated, Judge.
Judge (02:13:42):
Stipulations are noted.
Christopher Kinsler (02:13:46):
Hold on just a moment, Your Honor. One additional question as to Angela's autopsy. Would she have also been x-rayed?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:14:07):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (02:14:08):
Okay. I'd like to show State's Exhibit 132G. Is that right? Excuse me, 133G.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:14:16):
This is so stipulated, Your Honor.
Judge (02:14:17):
Thank you.
Christopher Kinsler (02:14:23):
Do you recognize State's Exhibit 133G?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:14:25):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (02:14:26):
And what is that?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:14:27):
So this is the side view x-ray of Angela, and I want to point out, we see a lot of fragments in the central area of the skull, but definitely we have one large projectile on the front and then we have this set of larger projectiles here. And then we have this one larger one right here where I was talking about it was right beside the foramen magnum part of the skull.
Christopher Kinsler (02:15:04):
And is that one you're just referring to, which wound was that associated with?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:15:08):
That was the first one we spoke about that entered on the left side of the head.
Christopher Kinsler (02:15:13):
Okay. And then the one up at the top by the forehead, that was the last one we spoke about?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:15:18):
Yes. That's the one that just entered in the forehead and only to the skin and bone.
Christopher Kinsler (02:15:22):
And then in the middle of that image, I think you indicated some additional projectiles. Would that be the middle wound that we talked about?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:15:30):
Yes.
Christopher Kinsler (02:15:31):
Which I think would've been wound number one.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:15:35):
Yes, you're right. Wound number one.
Christopher Kinsler (02:15:41):
Okay. Sorry, Your Honor. We're also going to show 133H.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:15:46):
No objection, Your Honor.
Christopher Kinsler (02:15:48):
And what are we looking at in 133H?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:15:49):
So this is a front on face view, 90 degrees to the other one we just saw. The large projectile we see, which is on her right side, is the right forehead one that just entered the skin that we spoke about. This large one down here looks like close to the nose. That's the one that we spoke about that entered on the left side and went downward through the brain stem and lodged there. And then these other two fragments are the one that entered from the right side and went across and down into the left side of the brain.
Christopher Kinsler (02:16:34):
No further questions to witness, Your Honor. Thank you.
Judge (02:16:39):
Mr. Shymansky, do you wish to undertake any cross examination?
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:16:41):
I do. Thank you, Your Honor.
Judge (02:16:43):
You may proceed when you're ready.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:16:45):
Doctor, good morning.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:16:46):
Morning. How are you today?
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:16:47):
I'm doing all right. It's good to see you.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:16:48):
Good to see you.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:16:51):
You know, you've done 7,200 of these, right?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:16:53):
Yeah. Not these exactly, but I've done enough of these that it feels like it sometimes.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:16:56):
We've been in court before. You're a consummate professional, it's fair to say, when it comes to these issues, correct?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:17:02):
Thank you.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:17:03):
And the thing about you and your colleagues is you don't take sides, right?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:17:07):
That's the goal, right. We're just here to give the facts of what we found and whoever that favors, it's the facts.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:17:13):
So for example, if there were any question about... There's no question about cause of death in this case, is there?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:17:18):
No.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:17:19):
It's gunshot wounds to the head, right?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:17:21):
Correct.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:17:21):
And if I had a question and I called your office, you'd say, "Oh yeah, Sam, here's a time we can talk." And we would go over this in a scientific medical manner, correct?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:17:30):
Right. I meet with both sides. We just answer questions.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:17:33):
And Doctor, the hallmark of you and your profession is that the opinions you give are to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, correct?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:17:42):
Yes.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:17:43):
And that's because you've been trained as a medical doctor. There's no question about that, right?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:17:47):
Right.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:17:48):
I mean, you're rooted in medicine and science and residency. You have gone through the exact same training as any physician that a juror would meet with, correct?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:17:58):
Up to a point, yes. But then they would have different things where I went towards pathology, they would go towards a family physician.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:18:05):
You're not going to replace my hip.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:18:07):
I am not. You don't want that.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:18:09):
But you could, if I so chose and you were willing and you had hospital privileges, you could perform surgery, correct? I know you don't want to.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:18:23):
Yeah. I mean, I have the license to do that. I guess you could say that.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:18:26):
That's exactly what I'm saying. And when it comes to licensure, the state of Ohio has an interest in maintaining a level of competency and professionalism, correct?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:18:36):
Yes.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:18:36):
So for example, in the state of Ohio, an optometrist is not qualified to give either a medical opinion regarding cause of death or time of death, correct?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:18:48):
Correct.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:18:49):
And that would be the same with a chiropractor, correct?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:18:52):
Yes.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:18:53):
These are questions resolved solely for professionals who have trained and studied and gone through the rigorous practice and procedure that you have, correct?
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:19:02):
Yes.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:19:03):
That's all I have. Thank you, sir.
Judge (02:19:06):
Mr. Kinsler, any redirect?
Christopher Kinsler (02:19:09):
No, Your Honor.
Judge (02:19:09):
Thank you. Okay. May this witness be excused?
Christopher Kinsler (02:19:12):
Yes, sir.
Judge (02:19:12):
Dr. Lee, thank you. You are excused.
Dr. Jeffrey Lee (02:19:12):
Great. Thank you.
Judge (02:19:32):
State of Ohio may call its next witness.
Mr. Vavra (02:19:37):
Brian Warcholak.
Speaker 8 (02:20:18):
Can you raise your right hand please? Do you swear the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Brian Warcholak (02:20:24):
I do.
Speaker 8 (02:20:24):
Please have a seat.
Judge (02:20:24):
Sir, do you object to being filmed?
Brian Warcholak (02:20:24):
No, I do not.
Judge (02:20:24):
Mr. Vavra, when you are ready to proceed.
Mr. Vavra (02:20:26):
Thank you, Judge. Sir, can you tell us your name please?
Brian Warcholak (02:20:30):
Yeah, my name is Brian Warcholak.
Mr. Vavra (02:20:32):
Can you go ahead and spell that last name for the court reporter?
Brian Warcholak (02:20:35):
Yes. It's W-A-R-C-H-O-L-A-K.
Mr. Vavra (02:20:41):
And Mr. Warcholak, where are you employed?
Brian Warcholak (02:20:44):
I'm employed with the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Mr. Vavra (02:20:47):
FBI?
Brian Warcholak (02:20:47):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (02:20:48):
And what is your role or job title with the FBI?
Brian Warcholak (02:20:53):
I'm an investigative analyst. I conduct research analysis on cases that FBI agents open and are assigned.
Mr. Vavra (02:21:02):
What does that mean kind of generally when you say you conduct analysis?
Brian Warcholak (02:21:08):
Throughout the course of investigations, analysts often acquire lots of information. So I assist agents with analytical support by going through that information and finding connections, patterns, developing a narrative as the agent sees fit.
Mr. Vavra (02:21:24):
So if you get involved in an investigation, who dictates, I guess, what you look at or what you do?
Brian Warcholak (02:21:31):
It's the investigators at the time. So special agent will basically dictate what I will look at and analyze.
Mr. Vavra (02:21:38):
And are there times where you might suggest, "Hey, I should probably look at this," or anything like that?
Brian Warcholak (02:21:44):
Yes, I do have the latitude coming from the agents to go ahead and look at things that might stick out according to my analysis.
Mr. Vavra (02:21:54):
And do you work with a particular agent or could it be any agent that needs assistance?
Brian Warcholak (02:22:03):
I work particularly with agents that are on the squad that I am assigned to, so it's more particular to agents that are on the same squad.
Mr. Vavra (02:22:16):
Tell us about what that... A squad or what do you mean by that?
Brian Warcholak (02:22:19):
Squads are basically assigned on the threat or violation that they work, such as violent crime. There would be a violent crime squad that works primarily violent crime for a certain area.
Mr. Vavra (02:22:32):
Is that the squad you're associated with right now?
Brian Warcholak (02:22:35):
No, I'm not.
Mr. Vavra (02:22:36):
Who are you with right now?
Brian Warcholak (02:22:38):
I'm with FBI Minneapolis.
Mr. Vavra (02:22:42):
Okay. In 2021, were you... Or I shouldn't even say that. Was there a time that you got involved in this investigation in a double homicide in Belmont County?
Brian Warcholak (02:22:52):
Yes. On or around the beginning of 2022, I was asked to assist with analytical support for this investigation.
Mr. Vavra (02:23:02):
And were you part of a particular squad at that time?
Brian Warcholak (02:23:05):
I was. I was a part of a squad that covered approximately 30 plus counties in Southeastern Ohio.
Mr. Vavra (02:23:13):
And was there any particular area of crimes or investigation that squad was associated with?
Brian Warcholak (02:23:19):
It was all crimes and all violations at that time.
Mr. Vavra (02:23:22):
So it was geographical then?
Brian Warcholak (02:23:23):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (02:23:26):
And tell us about your educational background, training, any certifications, things like that.
Brian Warcholak (02:23:32):
Certainly. So with the FBI, I was trained in basic analysis and developing information reports. I was a graduate of psychology in college. I went on to be an officer in the United States Marine Corps. From that, I went to graduate school for strategic intelligence and then joined the FBI.
Mr. Vavra (02:24:07):
When you first got involved with this case, were you working with a particular agent?
Brian Warcholak (02:24:13):
I was, yes.
Mr. Vavra (02:24:14):
And who was that agent?
Brian Warcholak (02:24:15):
FBI Special Agent Brian Lacy.
Mr. Vavra (02:24:18):
And at that point in the investigation, what were you doing? What were you looking at? What were you assisting with?
Brian Warcholak (02:24:27):
Brian Lacy was asked to assist with this investigation by Belmont County once the incident occurred. From then, since I was supporting Brian Lacy at the time anyways, I naturally then supported Brian Lacy in his analytical support with the investigation.
Mr. Vavra (02:24:43):
Okay. And what was the main focus of the FBI's involvement at that time?
Brian Warcholak (02:24:49):
At that time, it was cellular analysis, so taking cellular records that detectives had acquired throughout the course of the investigation and assisting with analyzing those records.
Mr. Vavra (02:25:01):
Okay. What does that entail when you say analyzing the records?
Brian Warcholak (02:25:06):
It entails looking for patterns or looking for anomalies within the data, trying to identify numbers to particular individuals and so on and so forth.
Mr. Vavra (02:25:18):
Okay. Is it your understanding that the FBI had acquired cell phone data from the towers here in Belmont County?
Brian Warcholak (02:25:26):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (02:25:27):
Were you a part of reviewing that information?
Brian Warcholak (02:25:30):
I was not a part of reviewing that information in particular.
Mr. Vavra (02:25:33):
Okay. Would that have been Agent Lacy?
Brian Warcholak (02:25:35):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (02:25:35):
Okay. But you were aware he had it and he had been looking at it?
Brian Warcholak (02:25:40):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (02:25:40):
Okay. Were you given anything in particular to look at at that time?
Brian Warcholak (02:25:45):
I was. I was given the records that detectives have received for Andrew Griffin and for Brett Cole.
Mr. Vavra (02:25:53):
Okay. And do you recall roughly when you were given the records related to Brett Cole?
Brian Warcholak (02:26:02):
I recall that that was in or around November of 2023.
Mr. Vavra (02:26:08):
So a little more than two years after the homicides take place?
Brian Warcholak (02:26:11):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (02:26:12):
Okay. And when you were given Brett Cole's records, were you looking for anything in particular?
Brian Warcholak (02:26:23):
Nothing in particular. I was just looking for any type of outliers that may have occurred in or around the timeframe of the homicides.
Mr. Vavra (02:26:33):
What is an outlier to you? Tell us what that means.
Brian Warcholak (02:26:38):
Well, it depends. In this case, an outlier for me was just a number that just seemed to stick out during the timeframe of the incident and a number that wasn't seen anywhere else in the records at the time as well.
Mr. Vavra (02:26:57):
Why would something like that be important to you?
Brian Warcholak (02:27:05):
It was important just because it was an anomaly.
Mr. Vavra (02:27:18):
Judge, at this time I would... Oh, let me withdraw that. You were given records that you believe belonged to Brett Cole?
Brian Warcholak (02:27:26):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (02:27:26):
And they were provided to you by the Belmont County Sheriff's Department?
Brian Warcholak (02:27:29):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (02:27:30):
Do you remember, was there a particular detective involved, was it Detective Blumling?
Brian Warcholak (02:27:32):
I believe it was Detective Blumling.
Mr. Vavra (02:27:35):
So he provided the records to you?
Brian Warcholak (02:27:36):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (02:27:37):
To your knowledge, he obtained them via subpoena?
Brian Warcholak (02:27:39):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (02:27:40):
Okay. And that is what you were looking at around this time?
Brian Warcholak (02:27:44):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (02:27:45):
Okay. If you saw those records again today, you think you'd recognize them?
Brian Warcholak (02:27:55):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (02:27:56):
Judge, at this time, I'd ask permission to publish State's Exhibit 25 and then State's Exhibit 25A.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:28:02):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge (02:28:03):
You may proceed.
Mr. Vavra (02:28:16):
Okay. And is there a pointer up there?
Brian Warcholak (02:28:18):
I believe so, yes.
Mr. Vavra (02:28:19):
Okay. All right. Do you recognize what you're looking at here, State's Exhibit 25?
Brian Warcholak (02:28:24):
Yes. These are records I received from Detective Blumling regarding number ending in 3870. That was the number that we had for Brett Cole. These are UScellular records.
Mr. Vavra (02:28:40):
Okay. And in fairness, in the left-hand corner, there is a name, correct? Do you see that upper left-hand corner?
Brian Warcholak (02:28:49):
I do.
Mr. Vavra (02:28:49):
Okay. And what is that name?
Brian Warcholak (02:28:51):
Carolyn Babcock.
Mr. Vavra (02:28:52):
Do you know what her relation is to Brett Cole?
Brian Warcholak (02:28:55):
I am aware that Carolyn Babcock is Brett Cole's mother, I believe.
Mr. Vavra (02:29:00):
And then on the right side of that block, we have a telephone number, correct?
Brian Warcholak (02:29:03):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (02:29:04):
What is that number?
Brian Warcholak (02:29:06):
That number is 580-372-3870. That is the number that detectives and myself received from Stacy Griffin at the time of talking with her, that this is Brett Cole's phone number.
Mr. Vavra (02:29:26):
Okay. This appears to be a lengthy record. Is that fair to say?
Brian Warcholak (02:29:31):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (02:29:33):
Okay. About 46 pages?
Brian Warcholak (02:29:35):
Approximately, yeah.
Mr. Vavra (02:29:36):
Okay. And the dates on this we're looking at here are in August, it looks like?
Brian Warcholak (02:29:45):
That looks like it is the billing date for this particular record.
Mr. Vavra (02:29:54):
We have State's Exhibit 25A here. Do you recognize that document?
Brian Warcholak (02:30:02):
Yes, I do.
Mr. Vavra (02:30:03):
Okay. Does this appear to be one of the pages of those 46 pages broken out?
Brian Warcholak (02:30:08):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (02:30:08):
Okay. And do we have a timeframe here as to when this time covers?
Brian Warcholak (02:30:14):
This time, based on my vision here, it covers roughly the timeframe that the homicides occurred.
Mr. Vavra (02:30:21):
Well, look, we see a lot of references to September. I see 9/14, 9/18, 9/15.
Brian Warcholak (02:30:27):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (02:30:28):
That's your understanding that is the date, the month and day?
Brian Warcholak (02:30:31):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (02:30:32):
Okay. Well, what are we looking at here as far as the detail in these?
Brian Warcholak (02:30:41):
We're looking at... Basically these are what are considered call detail records, so they show incoming and outgoing calls to the target number. They also indicate how long the contact was for. In this case, it's recognized by minutes within the middle column there, and that's just minutes that were basically charged. So for instance, if you see one minute up there, that basically means that it's charged in minutes, so the contact was a minute or less.
Mr. Vavra (02:31:21):
And it looks like we have some locations there as well. It says calls to... And that's one of the columns and underneath it we have different information?
Brian Warcholak (02:31:32):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (02:31:32):
And what is that indicating, if you know?
Brian Warcholak (02:31:37):
I'm not going to speculate. That would be more of a question for FBI Special Agent Brian Lacy.
Mr. Vavra (02:31:42):
Okay. All right. So I want to draw your attention now to the right column, bottom of this document. Did you ultimately identify what you termed earlier an anomaly with these records?
Brian Warcholak (02:32:01):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (02:32:01):
Okay. And what was the anomaly that you identified?
Brian Warcholak (02:32:05):
The anomaly was the last number that is on the right side of the records there, the number ending in 4775.
Mr. Vavra (02:32:16):
Is that the very last entry here?
Brian Warcholak (02:32:19):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (02:32:19):
Do you have your pointer?
Brian Warcholak (02:32:20):
I do.
Mr. Vavra (02:32:21):
Okay. Can you point out that anomaly?
Brian Warcholak (02:32:23):
Sure.
Mr. Vavra (02:32:25):
The very bottom entry?
Brian Warcholak (02:32:26):
Very bottom there.
Mr. Vavra (02:32:26):
Okay. And what is the date and time associated with that?
Brian Warcholak (02:32:32):
The date is September 21st. The time is 7:02 AM.
Mr. Vavra (02:32:38):
And the next line indicates incoming?
Brian Warcholak (02:32:40):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (02:32:41):
And go ahead and just read that number off for us.
Brian Warcholak (02:32:44):
Sure. 865-566-4775.
Mr. Vavra (02:32:49):
And is there a duration of this call or indication there is duration?
Brian Warcholak (02:32:53):
Correct. One minute.
Mr. Vavra (02:32:56):
Now, you identified this number as an anomaly?
Brian Warcholak (02:32:59):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (02:33:00):
Why?
Brian Warcholak (02:33:01):
It had a Tennessee area code. That area code wasn't located anywhere else in the records. The number itself wasn't located anywhere else in the records, and it was a number that was within the timeframe of the homicides.
Mr. Vavra (02:33:20):
Once you found this anomaly, what did you do?
Brian Warcholak (02:33:24):
I wrote the number on a sticky note and I brought it over to FBI Special Agent Brian Lacy's desk at the time. He was not there.
Mr. Vavra (02:33:33):
And I guess, what was your indication on the note, or what were you trying to convey to Agent Lacy?
Brian Warcholak (02:33:39):
I was trying to convey for him to look that number up within the tower dump records that he had from the Belmont County detectives.
Mr. Vavra (02:33:48):
And you were part of the investigation moving forward?
Brian Warcholak (02:33:50):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (02:33:51):
Is it your understanding he ultimately did that?
Brian Warcholak (02:33:53):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (02:33:55):
Okay. Did you have any additional roles as part of the case?
Brian Warcholak (02:33:59):
I did. I had a lot of autonomy to develop things that might have furthered the case, so I had also developed some unofficial timelines and some narratives surrounding the investigation and the homicides.
Mr. Vavra (02:34:18):
That's part of your duties as an analyst?
Brian Warcholak (02:34:20):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (02:34:20):
Is it accurate to say you would've passed that information along to Agent Lacy?
Brian Warcholak (02:34:24):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (02:34:27):
Okay. Did you accompany the detectives on trips to Oklahoma ever?
Brian Warcholak (02:34:30):
I did, yes.
Mr. Vavra (02:34:30):
Okay. Do you recall how many?
Brian Warcholak (02:34:32):
One time.
Mr. Vavra (02:34:32):
Okay. And what were the purpose of those trips, per your recollection?
Brian Warcholak (02:34:36):
That purpose, in particular, the trip that I went on with Detective Aller and FBI Special Agent Lacy, was to Oklahoma to speak with Stacy Griffin.
Mr. Vavra (02:34:45):
Any other individuals?
Brian Warcholak (02:34:46):
No.
Mr. Vavra (02:34:46):
Okay. I have no other questions, Judge.
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:34:49):
No questions. Thank you, Your Honor.
Judge (02:34:52):
Mr. Vavra, may this witness be excused?
Mr. Vavra (02:34:55):
Yes, Judge.
Judge (02:34:56):
Thank you, sir.
Brian Warcholak (02:34:57):
Thank you very much.
Judge (02:35:11):
Mr. Vavra, the state may call the next witness.
Mr. Vavra (02:35:12):
Approach, Judge?
Judge (02:36:49):
Yes.
(02:36:49)
For the jury to prepare for the next witness, they need a few minutes, so we're going to recess for about 10 minutes. You go back to the jury room, stretch your legs, we'll bring you back here.
Mr. Vavra (02:37:06):
Exhibits are squared away.
Judge (02:37:34):
We're outside the presence of the jury. Mr. Vavra, any issues the state...
Samuel H. Shamansky (02:37:40):
We're good. Thank you, sir.
Judge (02:37:42):
All right. We will take a 10-minute recess.
Speaker 10 (02:37:42):
[inaudible 02:48:54].
Judge (02:53:06):
Mr. Vavra, whenever you're ready, you may continue.
Mr. Vavra (02:53:33):
Thank you, sir. So I'm going to show you some photographs. So first I'm going to show you State's Exhibit 154A. Now, I know this isn't one you took, right?
Speaker 9 (02:53:43):
Right.
Mr. Vavra (02:53:43):
I just want to point something out to you to keep our record clean. At the top here, do you see what looks like a date right here?
Speaker 9 (02:53:53):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (02:53:54):
And what is that date?
Speaker 9 (02:53:56):
Looks like September 19th, 2021.
Mr. Vavra (02:53:59):
Do we see a time a little bit to the right?
Speaker 9 (02:54:00):
We do.
Mr. Vavra (02:54:02):
And what is that?
Speaker 9 (02:54:03):
22:52.
Mr. Vavra (02:54:06):
Okay. All right. Now, what I'm going to ask you to do is look at this picture and tell me, are there things you notice about this bike that are similar to the bike that you sold?
Speaker 9 (02:54:20):
I do.
Mr. Vavra (02:54:22):
Okay. Tell us about that.
Speaker 9 (02:54:23):
So number one that stands out to me would be obviously the saddlebags that was on that bike. And the reason being is those saddlebags was a soft shelled saddlebag. And that white deal right there, if you're looking right there at the back of the saddlebags, that's for rock and debris that comes off the highway so that doesn't cut the leather on the motorcycle.
(02:54:53)
Another thing that stands out to me is the highway bars on the side of it. A lot of times people often put pegs to put their feet out wide while they're cruising down the highway just for more comfortability. And then the exhaust. So the exhaust on that bike was called a Vance & Hines, and it was a aftermarket exhaust that comes straight out and they was flush with each other. And yeah, I pulled the baffles out of that bike to make it extremely loud whenever I owned it.
Mr. Vavra (02:55:27):
Anything else?
Speaker 9 (02:55:27):
And the mirrors are similar.
Mr. Vavra (02:55:33):
Can you point to the exhaust here?
Speaker 9 (02:55:34):
Sure. So the exhaust is right there. And then the highway bars that I was talking about are right here.
Mr. Vavra (02:55:49):
Was that a dual exhaust or just one?
Speaker 9 (02:55:51):
It's dual.
Mr. Vavra (02:55:51):
Okay. So is there one-
Speaker 9 (02:55:52):
That's a true dual exhaust.
Mr. Vavra (02:55:54):
Okay. I'm going to ask you about 154C. We'll look at this. Again, date and time, we still have 9/19/21, 10:52, right?
Speaker 9 (02:56:10):
Mm-hmm.
Mr. Vavra (02:56:11):
I know this isn't a tremendous picture, but is there anything on this picture that you noticed that looks similar to the bike that you sold?
Speaker 9 (02:56:19):
Again, the saddlebags, the white right there. That's like a white fabric, again, for rocks and such like that. So whenever they fling off the tires, they don't cut the bottom of the leather bags. The taillight and turn signals, and now that rear fender kind of has like a duck bill.
Mr. Vavra (02:56:44):
One final picture. And again, date, 9/19/21, 10:52. Okay. And here we got a little better shot of the front of the bike. Anything about the front of the bike that looks similar to you here?
Speaker 9 (02:57:10):
Yes, sir. The windshield.
Mr. Vavra (02:57:16):
Okay.
Speaker 9 (02:57:16):
So the windshield has that metal strap right there and the bottom right there where it went around the headlight muzzle.
Mr. Vavra (02:57:26):
Approach, Your Honor.
Judge (02:57:27):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (02:57:30):
I'll hold this. And can you kind of tell me what on this is similar to that?
Speaker 9 (02:57:36):
Yes, sir. This right here.
Mr. Vavra (02:57:38):
The bar across the front?
Speaker 9 (02:57:39):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (02:57:40):
Can you see that up there as well? Can you point that out?
Speaker 9 (02:57:42):
I can. It's right here.
Mr. Vavra (02:57:44):
Okay. And how about the brackets?
Speaker 9 (02:57:46):
Yeah, the brackets on the side. I think it's still missing a piece. But yeah. So this was on like that, and then that was on the other side.
Mr. Vavra (02:57:57):
So that's on the inside of the shield?
Speaker 9 (02:57:59):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (02:58:00):
Okay. Oh, and I'm sorry. For the record, the windshield is 129, the bracket's 129A. Anything else about the front of the bike that looks familiar to you to your bike?
Speaker 9 (02:58:29):
The highway pegs or the highway bars again here, here. And then, I mean, the headlight.
Mr. Vavra (02:58:46):
Similar to the bike that you sold?
Speaker 9 (02:58:47):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (02:58:50):
Rear view or side view mirror?
Speaker 9 (02:58:54):
It's hard for me to see in this picture. It's not really a clear picture.
Mr. Vavra (02:58:58):
Sure. Okay. You had mentioned earlier something about a cell phone holder too?
Speaker 9 (02:59:03):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (02:59:04):
Okay. Can you see that in this picture?
Speaker 9 (02:59:09):
I cannot.
Mr. Vavra (02:59:10):
Okay. All right. Where would it have been?
Speaker 9 (02:59:14):
On the left handlebar.
Mr. Vavra (02:59:15):
Okay. But you can't make it out in the picture?
Speaker 9 (02:59:18):
I can't make it out.
Mr. Vavra (02:59:20):
Fair enough. Just going back to 154A, the saddlebags in this picture, I don't know what you'd call them, spurs or the design-
Speaker 9 (02:59:53):
The little buttons?
Mr. Vavra (02:59:54):
Yes. The buttons. Okay. Does that appear to be similar to the bike you sold?
Speaker 9 (03:00:01):
It is.
Mr. Vavra (03:00:11):
So we look back at some of your older pictures, or your pictures before, you see that same design, correct?
Speaker 9 (03:00:17):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (03:00:20):
I have no other questions, Judge.
Judge (03:00:22):
Thank you. Mr. Shamansky, do you have any cross examination?
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:00:26):
I do, Judge. Thanks.
Judge (03:00:27):
All right. You may proceed when you're ready.
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:00:28):
Sir, good morning.
Speaker 9 (03:00:29):
Good morning.
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:00:32):
Just real quick, you've been around a lot of bikes, right?
Speaker 9 (03:00:34):
Yes, sir.
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:00:35):
That cow is a nice, big, heavy V-twin, sort of like a big Harley, 1500 CCs, right?
Speaker 9 (03:00:40):
Yes, sir.
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:00:41):
Heavy, stable, right?
Speaker 9 (03:00:43):
Yes, sir.
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:00:44):
And many people like to get that exhaust hopped up a little bit, right?
Speaker 9 (03:00:49):
Yes, sir.
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:00:49):
And Vance & Hines, that's one of the more expensive exhausts that you can buy, right?
Speaker 9 (03:00:52):
It is.
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:00:53):
But there's all kinds of aftermarket exhaust produced, right?
Speaker 9 (03:00:56):
There is.
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:00:57):
And when you have a V-twin setup such as that, typically they're going to come, there's going to be a connecting pipe, they're going to come along, because you only want it on one side, so you're not going to forget and burn your legs, right?
Speaker 9 (03:01:07):
Yes, sir.
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:01:07):
So that's not an unusual setup in terms of the way those pipes come off that bike, right?
Speaker 9 (03:01:13):
No, sir.
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:01:13):
And you've seen it on lots of other cruisers, right?
Speaker 9 (03:01:16):
Yes, sir.
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:01:16):
Okay. And to be fair, those rivets on the saddlebags, that's also a very popular design, right? I mean, that's not the first time you've seen a set of rivets on a saddlebag, right?
Speaker 9 (03:01:27):
For me, it was.
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:01:29):
Oh, okay. So that'd be the first saddlebags you've seen with those rivets?
Speaker 9 (03:01:32):
Yes, sir.
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:01:33):
Okay. And you've had occasion to check out different fairings, or you called it a windscreen, right?
Speaker 9 (03:01:42):
Yes, sir.
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:01:43):
A lot of them look, I mean, there's some metal, there's some plexiglass, right?
Speaker 9 (03:01:46):
Yes, sir.
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:01:48):
And so would it be fair to say that you see a lot of similarities on this bike, right?
Speaker 9 (03:01:53):
Yes, sir.
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:01:54):
But you can't say for certain it's the exact bike that you sold, right?
Speaker 9 (03:01:58):
It looks very similar.
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:02:00):
I get that. Similar, right?
Speaker 9 (03:02:01):
Yes, sir.
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:02:02):
But nobody could expect you to say here that, "Boy, that's the exact bike I sold," because you're not right up on it, correct?
Speaker 9 (03:02:07):
That is correct.
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:02:08):
All right. That's all I have. Thank you, sir.
Speaker 9 (03:02:09):
Yes, sir.
Judge (03:02:11):
Mr. Vavra, any redirect?
Mr. Vavra (03:02:22):
Those pictures you looked at that aren't pictures you took, the three, was there anything that you saw in those pictures that made that you wouldn't think, this is not my bike?
Speaker 9 (03:02:31):
No, sir.
Mr. Vavra (03:02:32):
Nothing else, Your Honor.
Judge (03:02:34):
Mr. Shamansky?
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:02:35):
No, sir. Good. Thank you.
Judge (03:02:37):
All right. Mr. Vavra, may this witness be excused?
Mr. Vavra (03:02:39):
Yes, Judge.
Judge (03:02:40):
Thank you, sir.
Speaker 9 (03:02:40):
Yes, sir.
Judge (03:02:51):
Gentlemen, I think this is a good place to recess for lunch.
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:02:54):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (03:02:54):
Yes, Judge.
Judge (03:02:55):
All right. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, it is 12:25. We'll recess until 1:30. So try to be back here, if you do leave, a couple minutes before that. And remember the orders, especially no discussion of this case with anyone. If anyone attempts to discuss it with you, you are to report back to this court or the bailiff. Undertake no investigation about this case. Do not review any media stories, whether it's print, online, or the television. Do not watch any stories about this case. So with that said, I'll see you all back here and we'll begin about 1:30. Issues that need addressed by the state?
Mr. Vavra (03:04:14):
No, Judge.
Samuel H. Shamansky (03:04:15):
All good, Your Honor. Thank you.
Judge (03:04:16):
Okay. Then court will be in recess at this time.
Speaker 11 (03:18:00):
(silence)
Speaker 12 (03:51:00):
(silence)
Speaker 13 (03:51:00):
[inaudible 04:27:15].
Speaker 14 (03:51:00):
[inaudible 04:27:20].
Speaker 13 (03:51:00):
You going back in, Kristy?
Kristy (03:51:00):
Apparently.
Speaker 13 (03:51:00):
[inaudible 04:27:30].
Speaker 15 (04:42:23):
All rise.
Judge (04:42:25):
Everyone please be seated. All right, we're back on the record in the state of Ohio versus Andrew Griffin. Mr. Griffin is present in the courtroom with his counsel. The state of Ohio is present and the jury. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, any issues in following my orders? Just raise your hand. No one has raised their hand. And I apologize for the delay. We had a couple issues we needed to address. So that was the reason that we're starting about a half hour late. Sorry about that. We are with the State's case in chief. Mr. Vavra, you may call your next witness.
Mr. Vavra (04:43:07):
Thank you, Your Honor. State calls Stacy Griffin.
Judge (04:43:31):
Stand up facing me, raise your right hand please? Do you swear the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Stacy Griffin (04:43:48):
Yes, sir.
Judge (04:43:48):
Have a seat. Ma'am, do you object to being filmed?
Stacy Griffin (04:43:48):
I would not like to be filmed.
Judge (04:43:55):
All right. Mr. Vavra, you are ready to proceed.
Mr. Vavra (04:43:57):
Thank you, Judge. Ma'am, can you tell us your name please?
Stacy Griffin (04:43:59):
Stacy Griffin.
Mr. Vavra (04:44:00):
Okay. And in which state do you currently live?
Stacy Griffin (04:44:03):
Oklahoma.
Mr. Vavra (04:44:04):
Okay. And are you employed?
Stacy Griffin (04:44:07):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (04:44:07):
Okay. What do you do for a living?
Stacy Griffin (04:44:09):
I'm a speech language pathologist.
Mr. Vavra (04:44:11):
And how long have you been in that field?
Stacy Griffin (04:44:14):
Seven and a half years or so.
Mr. Vavra (04:44:17):
I'm going to ask you if you can bring that mic a little closer and just try to keep your voice up.
Stacy Griffin (04:44:22):
Seven and a half years.
Mr. Vavra (04:44:27):
Okay. Do you know Andrew Griffin?
Stacy Griffin (04:44:29):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:44:30):
Okay. And who is he to you?
Stacy Griffin (04:44:31):
We were married at one point.
Mr. Vavra (04:44:33):
Okay. When did the two of you first meet?
Stacy Griffin (04:44:36):
In 2014.
Mr. Vavra (04:44:36):
Okay. How'd you meet?
Stacy Griffin (04:44:40):
We met at a bar.
Mr. Vavra (04:44:42):
Okay. Dated for a while?
Stacy Griffin (04:44:44):
Yes. About six years.
Mr. Vavra (04:44:46):
Okay. And were you eventually married?
Stacy Griffin (04:44:48):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:44:48):
Okay. When were you married?
Stacy Griffin (04:44:50):
September of 2020.
Mr. Vavra (04:44:52):
And was your marriage terminated?
Stacy Griffin (04:44:55):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:44:56):
And when was it officially terminated?
Stacy Griffin (04:44:58):
It was officially terminated in May of 2025.
Mr. Vavra (04:45:00):
Okay. So for that timeframe we're talking about, you and he were married?
Stacy Griffin (04:45:05):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:45:06):
Okay. When you were married back in 2020, where were you living?
Stacy Griffin (04:45:12):
We were living in Mena, Arkansas.
Mr. Vavra (04:45:14):
Okay. Both of you living together?
Stacy Griffin (04:45:16):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:45:16):
Okay. And do you recall the address?
Stacy Griffin (04:45:19):
Yes. 1810 B Carter Avenue.
Mr. Vavra (04:45:22):
And you said Mena, Arkansas?
Stacy Griffin (04:45:23):
Mena, Arkansas.
Mr. Vavra (04:45:25):
And where is that in relation to Oklahoma?
Stacy Griffin (04:45:29):
About 20 minutes from the Oklahoma line, give or take a little.
Mr. Vavra (04:45:33):
So pretty close. You have to answer everything audibly.
Stacy Griffin (04:45:36):
Oh, yes. Sorry.
Mr. Vavra (04:45:40):
Okay. And did that house you were living in, or was it an apartment?
Stacy Griffin (04:45:45):
A duplex.
Mr. Vavra (04:45:46):
Okay. Did you own it?
Stacy Griffin (04:45:46):
No.
Mr. Vavra (04:45:50):
Okay. Did you own any property at that point?
Stacy Griffin (04:45:53):
I did not, but Andrew did.
Mr. Vavra (04:45:55):
Okay. Where did he own property?
Stacy Griffin (04:45:57):
Whitesboro, Oklahoma.
Mr. Vavra (04:45:59):
Okay. And what... Was it a house? Was it land?
Stacy Griffin (04:46:02):
Raw land.
Mr. Vavra (04:46:03):
Okay. And to your knowledge, did he own property at Hugo?
Stacy Griffin (04:46:11):
Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Vavra (04:46:18):
Married in, say, October of 2020?
Stacy Griffin (04:46:20):
September.
Mr. Vavra (04:46:20):
September 2020? What is your anniversary date?
Stacy Griffin (04:46:25):
September 26th, 2020.
Mr. Vavra (04:46:38):
Did you ever travel to Beaumont County, Ohio?
Stacy Griffin (04:46:43):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:46:43):
Roughly when was that?
Stacy Griffin (04:46:46):
Twice. I believe in the spring, winter/spring of 2021, and then in the summer.
Mr. Vavra (04:46:55):
In the winter/spring 2021, when you came up here, where'd you stay?
Stacy Griffin (04:47:00):
In Tom and Angela Strussion's house.
Mr. Vavra (04:47:05):
Okay. And why did you stay there?
Stacy Griffin (04:47:06):
I was up here meeting them and they were discussing business dealings with Salsa Joe's.
Mr. Vavra (04:47:12):
Okay. And your husband was there?
Stacy Griffin (04:47:16):
Yes. Okay.
Mr. Vavra (04:47:17):
And during these meetings, did you have an understanding of your husband's involvement with Salsa Joe's?
Stacy Griffin (04:47:23):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:47:23):
What was that understanding?
Stacy Griffin (04:47:25):
A partner in the new business, the one they were opening in Elm Grove.
Mr. Vavra (04:47:31):
Did you have any involvement with that whatsoever?
Stacy Griffin (04:47:34):
Not really. I think I came up once when it was up and running.
Mr. Vavra (04:47:38):
So was that the second time you came up?
Stacy Griffin (04:47:40):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:47:40):
In the summer of '21?
Stacy Griffin (04:47:41):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:47:42):
Where did you stay at that time?
Stacy Griffin (04:47:44):
Andrew was renting a house.
Mr. Vavra (04:47:45):
Do you remember where?
Stacy Griffin (04:47:47):
In Elm Grove. It wasn't too far from the restaurant. I don't remember the exact address.
Mr. Vavra (04:47:57):
I want to ask you about some specific dates in September of 2021, okay?
Stacy Griffin (04:48:00):
Okay.
Mr. Vavra (04:48:00):
On September 19th of 2021, do you recall physically seeing Andrew?
Stacy Griffin (04:48:00):
No.
Mr. Vavra (04:48:00):
Where were you at the time?
Stacy Griffin (04:48:00):
I was at our house in Mena.
Mr. Vavra (04:48:03):
Okay. On September 20 of 2021, do you recall physically seeing Andrew on that date?
Stacy Griffin (04:48:19):
No.
Mr. Vavra (04:48:20):
On September 21 of 2021, did you see Andrew for most of that day?
Stacy Griffin (04:48:29):
I'm not sure.
Mr. Vavra (04:48:30):
Okay. Was there a date around then you saw him in the evening?
Stacy Griffin (04:48:35):
Yes. The after work one day, on Monday or Tuesday.
Mr. Vavra (04:48:39):
Okay.
Stacy Griffin (04:48:39):
Tuesday, maybe.
Mr. Vavra (04:48:48):
Okay. After you saw him, you said late on the 21st, did you two have a trip planned?
Stacy Griffin (04:48:57):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:48:58):
Okay. And what was that trip for?
Stacy Griffin (04:49:00):
Our anniversary was coming up.
Mr. Vavra (04:49:01):
And where did you go?
Stacy Griffin (04:49:03):
We went to Yellowstone.
Mr. Vavra (04:49:06):
And I have a couple pictures here. On your trip, were pictures taken of the two of you?
Stacy Griffin (04:49:13):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:49:16):
Judge, I'd ask permission to show State's Exhibit 147 and 147A.
Speaker 16 (04:49:21):
Your Honor, object, relevancy.
Judge (04:49:21):
[inaudible 04:49:26].
Mr. Vavra (04:51:04):
So again, a couple pictures taken on your trip. Okay. I'm going to show you State's Exhibit 147. Do you recognize this photo?
Stacy Griffin (04:51:25):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:51:25):
Okay.
Stacy Griffin (04:51:25):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:51:26):
And this is you and he on that anniversary trip?
Stacy Griffin (04:51:29):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:51:29):
And this is how you and he physically looked in September of 2021?
Stacy Griffin (04:51:33):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:51:35):
And this picture truly and accurately represents the two of you at that time?
Stacy Griffin (04:51:39):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:51:39):
Do you know who took it?
Stacy Griffin (04:51:42):
Some random person we asked to take our picture.
Mr. Vavra (04:51:47):
And 147A, again, similar?
Stacy Griffin (04:51:55):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:51:55):
Picture of the two of you on your trip?
Stacy Griffin (04:51:57):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:51:58):
What do you recall the dates of the trip? I know you said when you left.
Stacy Griffin (04:52:06):
Around the 23rd and we were gone for 7 to 10 days.
Mr. Vavra (04:52:11):
Okay. So this was taken somewhere in that timeframe?
Stacy Griffin (04:52:13):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:52:13):
And this accurately represents how the two of you looked at the time?
Stacy Griffin (04:52:16):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:52:17):
And do you recall who took this picture?
Stacy Griffin (04:52:22):
Another random person we asked.
Mr. Vavra (04:52:26):
Do you see your ex-husband, Andrew Griffin, in the courtroom here today?
Stacy Griffin (04:52:29):
Yes, I do.
Speaker 16 (04:52:30):
Stipulate he's seated at counsel table and she's identified him, Your Honor.
Judge (04:52:34):
Stipulation is noted.
Mr. Vavra (04:52:40):
Was there a period where your marriage was hitting a rocky spot?
Stacy Griffin (04:52:46):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:52:47):
And roughly when was that?
Stacy Griffin (04:52:49):
Around the end of 2021.
Mr. Vavra (04:52:53):
And was there a period where it got to the point the two of you separated?
Stacy Griffin (04:52:57):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:52:58):
And roughly when was that?
Stacy Griffin (04:53:01):
Around April or May of 2023.
Mr. Vavra (04:53:07):
And at that point, did the two of you cease living together?
Stacy Griffin (04:53:10):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:53:11):
Okay. And where did you live after you separated?
Stacy Griffin (04:53:17):
We had bought a house in Whitesboro, Oklahoma.
Mr. Vavra (04:53:20):
Okay. Where was Andrew living at that point, if you know?
Stacy Griffin (04:53:23):
We also had a cabin about seven miles away in Hodgen, Oklahoma, and he lived there.
Mr. Vavra (04:53:32):
Okay. When did you move into the Whitesboro, Oklahoma home that you lived in?
Stacy Griffin (04:53:38):
Around the end of 2022, beginning of 2023, December, January-ish.
Mr. Vavra (04:53:45):
So it was a few months later that you split?
Stacy Griffin (04:53:47):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:53:47):
Okay. And when you moved there, was it from your place in Mena?
Stacy Griffin (04:53:52):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:54:06):
Okay. Was there a period around that time or after that time where you didn't know where Andrew was?
Stacy Griffin (04:54:12):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:54:14):
And do you recall the timeframe where you weren't aware of where he was?
Stacy Griffin (04:54:17):
After we had separated?
Mr. Vavra (04:54:18):
Yes.
Stacy Griffin (04:54:20):
Yes. From June of 2023 until about October, November of 2023.
Mr. Vavra (04:54:28):
Okay. During this timeframe, did you speak to Detective Ryan Oller?
Stacy Griffin (04:54:36):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:54:37):
Did you reach out to him or did he reach out to you?
Stacy Griffin (04:54:39):
He reached out to me.
Mr. Vavra (04:54:41):
Okay. And did you have a meeting with Detective Oller where you provided him with some items?
Stacy Griffin (04:54:46):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:55:01):
Judge, may I approach?
Judge (04:55:02):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:55:23):
[inaudible 04:55:06]. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as State's Exhibit 110 and State's Exhibit 111. And if you need to open those, let us know. We can do that.
Stacy Griffin (04:55:31):
Okay.
Mr. Vavra (04:55:33):
First, where did you find... Or I'm sorry, you gave Detective Oller some items, correct?
Stacy Griffin (04:55:40):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (04:55:41):
Where did you find the items we're talking about?
Stacy Griffin (04:55:45):
Andrew had purchased a white Dodge and they were in the console of that vehicle.
Mr. Vavra (04:55:50):
Tell us why you had that vehicle at the time.
Stacy Griffin (04:55:52):
So during while we were married, I drove that pickup. It was a newer pickup and I had an older pickup, so he drove mine and I drove his. And while our divorce was going on, as he said as long as I made the payments on the vehicle, I could drive it, and I was making the payments on the vehicle.
Mr. Vavra (04:56:16):
Was there a period where that was his primary vehicle?
Stacy Griffin (04:56:19):
Yes, when he was driving back and forth to Ohio.
Mr. Vavra (04:56:22):
Okay. And do you recall roughly when it became your primary vehicle?
Stacy Griffin (04:56:29):
Kind of on and off before he went and after he had come back.
Mr. Vavra (04:56:34):
So was there a time where things changed and then he wanted the vehicle back?
Stacy Griffin (04:56:39):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:56:40):
Okay. So what did you do with that vehicle before giving it back?
Stacy Griffin (04:56:43):
I cleaned it out.
Mr. Vavra (04:56:44):
And what was the purpose of that?
Stacy Griffin (04:56:46):
Just to make sure all of my stuff was out of it.
Mr. Vavra (04:56:48):
Okay. And while doing that, you found a few items and these are we're talking about you gave to Detective Oller, correct?
Stacy Griffin (04:56:55):
Yes. Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (04:56:56):
Do you recall what those items were?
Stacy Griffin (04:56:59):
A tracker, a battery pack, like a portable battery charger.
Stacy Griffin (04:57:00):
... a battery pack, like a portable battery charger pack, and some paperwork items.
Mr. Vavra (04:57:10):
I'm going to have you look at State's Exhibit 110 there. Do you see that in front of you?
Stacy Griffin (04:57:16):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:57:16):
Okay. And do you recognize that?
Stacy Griffin (04:57:19):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:57:20):
What is it?
Stacy Griffin (04:57:21):
That's the tracker that I found in the console of the vehicle.
Mr. Vavra (04:57:24):
Okay. Now, the other item there, was one item you found a phone?
Stacy Griffin (04:57:32):
Oh, yes. Yes, it was.
Mr. Vavra (04:57:36):
So there was a phone in the vehicle?
Stacy Griffin (04:57:37):
There was a phone in the vehicle.
Mr. Vavra (04:57:38):
Did you know who it belonged to?
Stacy Griffin (04:57:40):
No, I did not.
Mr. Vavra (04:57:41):
Okay. Did you look at it at all, notice anything about it to see who it might belong to?
Stacy Griffin (04:57:48):
I did get it turned on and on the front there was a horse, but I did not recognize the horse.
Mr. Vavra (04:57:52):
A picture of a horse?
Stacy Griffin (04:57:53):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:57:54):
Like a screensaver?
Stacy Griffin (04:57:55):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:57:55):
Okay. Other than that, did you do anything else with the phone?
Stacy Griffin (04:57:58):
No.
Mr. Vavra (04:57:58):
Okay. And those are two items you gave to Detective Allar, fair to say?
Stacy Griffin (04:58:03):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:58:04):
Okay. And the phone there, that State's Exhibit 111 or 111?
Stacy Griffin (04:58:10):
This one is 112.
Mr. Vavra (04:58:19):
112. I'm sorry. May I approach, Your Honor?
Judge (04:58:20):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:58:20):
That's my fault.
Stacy Griffin (04:58:20):
That's okay.
Mr. Vavra (04:58:30):
Okay. So my fault. Handed you the wrong exhibit. That's 111 there in front of you in the envelope?
Stacy Griffin (04:58:36):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:58:37):
Can you go ahead and open that up for us? Do you need scissors or... Okay.
Stacy Griffin (04:58:53):
Oh no, I'm good. Thank you. Take it out?
Mr. Vavra (04:59:02):
Yes, please. Okay. Do you recognize that item?
Stacy Griffin (04:59:04):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:59:05):
And what is it?
Stacy Griffin (04:59:06):
It's a cell phone.
Mr. Vavra (04:59:07):
Okay.
Stacy Griffin (04:59:07):
An Apple cell phone.
Mr. Vavra (04:59:09):
Does it appear to be the one you provided to Detective Allar?
Stacy Griffin (04:59:12):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:59:15):
Approach, Your Honor.
Judge (04:59:16):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:59:35):
You just mentioned you also found some paperwork?
Stacy Griffin (04:59:37):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:59:38):
And you gave that to Detective Allar as well?
Stacy Griffin (04:59:39):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:59:40):
Did you go through or look at what it was at the time?
Stacy Griffin (04:59:43):
No, not really. I just saw that it had to do with Ohio business and turned it in.
Mr. Vavra (04:59:47):
Okay. So you just handed all that to Detective Allar?
Stacy Griffin (04:59:51):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:59:52):
Fair enough. Now, was there another occasion where Detective Allar reached out to you to ask you to look for something?
Stacy Griffin (05:00:00):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:00:02):
Okay. Do you recall roughly when that conversation happened?
Stacy Griffin (05:00:11):
No, I don't.
Mr. Vavra (05:00:16):
Do you recall what he asked you to look for?
Stacy Griffin (05:00:18):
A charger phone pack.
Mr. Vavra (05:00:21):
And what did you do when he asked you to look for it?
Stacy Griffin (05:00:22):
I did.
Mr. Vavra (05:00:23):
Okay. Did he show you a picture of what he was looking for or anything like that?
Stacy Griffin (05:00:28):
No, he just asked me for one.
Mr. Vavra (05:00:30):
Okay. So what did you do? Or I guess you went to look for it. What all does that entail?
Stacy Griffin (05:00:37):
We have a what I will refer to as a Conex box. It's a 40 foot box storage container, and I looked for it there and in the house.
Mr. Vavra (05:00:49):
And did you ultimately locate one?
Stacy Griffin (05:00:51):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:00:52):
Okay. Where did you locate it?
Stacy Griffin (05:00:53):
In the house, in a box. We still had stuff... Since our split was so recent with the move, we still had things in boxes.
Mr. Vavra (05:01:06):
And you found it in one of... Is it fair to say it's a moving box?
Stacy Griffin (05:01:07):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:01:08):
Okay. And you found it in there?
Stacy Griffin (05:01:09):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:01:09):
What did you do when you found it?
Stacy Griffin (05:01:11):
I called Ryan.
Mr. Vavra (05:01:14):
Detective Allar?
Stacy Griffin (05:01:14):
Yes. Sorry.
Mr. Vavra (05:01:15):
Okay. And what happened from there?
Stacy Griffin (05:01:17):
He came and got it. Same day, I believe.
Mr. Vavra (05:01:21):
He physically came and picked it up from you?
Stacy Griffin (05:01:22):
Yes. Yes, he came and physically picked it up from me.
Mr. Vavra (05:01:26):
Do your best if we talk over each other. She can't take what we're saying.
Stacy Griffin (05:01:30):
I'm sorry.
Mr. Vavra (05:01:30):
I'll do my best to not talk over you and same, okay? May I approach, Judge?
Judge (05:01:36):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:01:41):
Now I'm going to hand you what's marked as State's Exhibit 112. Do you recognize that item?
Stacy Griffin (05:01:47):
Yes, I do.
Mr. Vavra (05:01:47):
Okay. And what is that?
Stacy Griffin (05:01:49):
That's the portable charging box.
Mr. Vavra (05:01:51):
That's the one you found and gave to Detective Allar?
Stacy Griffin (05:01:53):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:01:58):
Okay. Had you ever seen that before that day?
Stacy Griffin (05:02:00):
No.
Mr. Vavra (05:02:01):
You didn't purchase it?
Stacy Griffin (05:02:02):
No.
Mr. Vavra (05:02:03):
Didn't belong to you?
Stacy Griffin (05:02:04):
No.
Mr. Vavra (05:02:10):
Was there a time recently where you found other items that you contacted Detective Allar about?
Stacy Griffin (05:02:16):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:02:16):
Okay. In the spring of 2026, this year -
Stacy Griffin (05:02:21):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:02:22):
... did you find some other items?
Stacy Griffin (05:02:23):
I did.
Mr. Vavra (05:02:24):
What did you find?
Stacy Griffin (05:02:25):
Multiple tracking devices.
Mr. Vavra (05:02:28):
Where did you find those?
Stacy Griffin (05:02:29):
In the storage container, the Conex box.
Mr. Vavra (05:02:34):
And when you found them, did you take a picture of it?
Stacy Griffin (05:02:37):
I did.
Mr. Vavra (05:02:39):
Judge, permission to show State's Exhibit 110A?
Mr. Shamansky (05:02:42):
No objection.
Judge (05:02:43):
You may proceed.
Mr. Vavra (05:02:50):
Are these the... Is this the photo you took of the devices? All right. State Exhibit 110A. You recognize this picture?
Stacy Griffin (05:03:12):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:03:13):
Is this the photo you took?
Stacy Griffin (05:03:14):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:03:15):
Okay. And these are the devices that were found or boxes that were found?
Stacy Griffin (05:03:19):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:03:20):
Approach, Your Honor?
Judge (05:03:21):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:03:37):
After you took this photo, you sent it to Detective Allar?
Stacy Griffin (05:03:40):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:03:40):
And what was the discussion about these items about that?
Stacy Griffin (05:03:46):
He asked me to send them to you.
Mr. Vavra (05:03:48):
And did you?
Stacy Griffin (05:03:49):
Yes, I did.
Mr. Vavra (05:03:50):
Okay. Do you... I handed you State's Exhibits, what would be 110 B, C, D, and E. Do you see those there?
Stacy Griffin (05:04:01):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (05:04:02):
110B, what is that?
Stacy Griffin (05:04:05):
May I?
Mr. Vavra (05:04:05):
Yes.
Stacy Griffin (05:04:09):
It's an open tracking device with a carrier thing.
Mr. Vavra (05:04:16):
Do you see that in the photograph?
Stacy Griffin (05:04:20):
Yes, I believe it's the open box.
Mr. Vavra (05:04:23):
Okay. The one in the middle where you see a black device?
Stacy Griffin (05:04:27):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:04:27):
Okay. And do you see State's 110C up there?
Stacy Griffin (05:04:34):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (05:04:35):
Okay. And what is that?
Stacy Griffin (05:04:37):
It's a box for a tracking device.
Mr. Vavra (05:04:39):
One of the boxes from the photo, you believe?
Stacy Griffin (05:04:41):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:04:42):
What about 110E?
Stacy Griffin (05:04:45):
It is also a box from the photo. And it has -
Mr. Vavra (05:04:51):
Approach, Judge?
Stacy Griffin (05:04:51):
... one in it.
Judge (05:04:51):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:04:59):
I'm going to hand you again, this is State's 110. You testified earlier that's the one you found in the truck?
Stacy Griffin (05:05:08):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:05:09):
Okay. And is there a brand on that device?
Stacy Griffin (05:05:12):
Tracky. Something like that.
Mr. Vavra (05:05:14):
And does that appear to be the same brand as the other ones you found in spring of '26?
Stacy Griffin (05:05:18):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:05:31):
I'm going to show you what the State has marked as State's Exhibit 20. Permission to display, Judge?
Judge (05:05:43):
Mr. Shamansky?
Mr. Shamansky (05:05:44):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge (05:05:45):
You may proceed.
Mr. Vavra (05:05:51):
You may not recognize this document, but do you... At the time in 2021, what was your phone number?
Stacy Griffin (05:05:57):
580-317-3904.
Mr. Vavra (05:06:00):
Okay. And if I were to indicate to you that that's the phone number listed on this document is voice use for and that's your telephone number right there?
Stacy Griffin (05:06:12):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:06:12):
So this appear to be your phone records from that time?
Stacy Griffin (05:06:15):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:06:16):
Okay. Did you have a second phone at that time?
Stacy Griffin (05:06:21):
2023?
Mr. Vavra (05:06:22):
2021 for work purposes?
Stacy Griffin (05:06:24):
In 2021, no.
Mr. Vavra (05:06:26):
Okay. Did you ever have a second phone?
Stacy Griffin (05:06:28):
Yes, at 2023.
Mr. Vavra (05:06:30):
Okay. And what was the reason for that?
Stacy Griffin (05:06:35):
Andrew had taken my phone and I bought a new one with a new number.
Mr. Vavra (05:06:49):
I'm going to pull up what's marked as State's Exhibit 21.
Judge (05:06:53):
Mr. Shamansky, any issues?
Mr. Shamansky (05:06:54):
No, sir.
Mr. Vavra (05:06:57):
And again, appear to be a phone record?
Stacy Griffin (05:07:00):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:07:01):
Okay. And there's a number there, voice usage for. Do you see that?
Stacy Griffin (05:07:05):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:07:05):
Do you recognize the phone number associated with that?
Stacy Griffin (05:07:08):
I do.
Mr. Vavra (05:07:08):
What is that?
Stacy Griffin (05:07:10):
That was a phone number I used for a short time.
Mr. Vavra (05:07:12):
Okay. So that was a second phone of yours?
Stacy Griffin (05:07:14):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:07:15):
Okay. And was that... Appears to be from 2021?
Stacy Griffin (05:07:22):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:07:23):
Okay. So do you think you probably did have a second phone around then?
Stacy Griffin (05:07:26):
Yes, but it was on Andrew's account.
Mr. Vavra (05:07:28):
Okay.
Stacy Griffin (05:07:29):
Andrew was paying for that phone.
Mr. Vavra (05:07:30):
Okay.
Stacy Griffin (05:07:31):
I had one phone with two different numbers on it, if that makes sense.
Mr. Vavra (05:07:36):
One phone with two different numbers. Explain that to me.
Stacy Griffin (05:07:42):
You can pick and choose which phone number you use, if that makes sense.
Mr. Vavra (05:07:47):
How do you pick?
Stacy Griffin (05:07:51):
There's an old number option and a new number option, and AT&T can put both numbers on one phone.
Mr. Vavra (05:07:57):
So the phone can just switch back and forth?
Stacy Griffin (05:07:58):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:07:59):
Okay.
Stacy Griffin (05:08:00):
You control the switch, but yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:08:03):
So if you call from one number to someone, that number pops up. If you switch and call them again, it's the other number?
Stacy Griffin (05:08:08):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:08:09):
Okay. So we have the records for both numbers, it would appear?
Stacy Griffin (05:08:12):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:08:26):
Okay. We talked about trackers found in spring of 2026, yes?
Stacy Griffin (05:08:32):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:08:33):
Did you more recently find other items that you provided to detectives in Belmont County?
Stacy Griffin (05:08:38):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:08:38):
Okay. Roughly when did you find these other items and what were they?
Stacy Griffin (05:08:44):
As I was moving, there was a few different things. A calendar from 2021, like a pocketbook type calendar, along with some other items.
Mr. Vavra (05:08:59):
Try to keep your voice up.
Stacy Griffin (05:08:59):
Sorry.
Mr. Vavra (05:09:02):
You found a calendar?
Stacy Griffin (05:09:03):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:09:03):
Okay. What else?
Stacy Griffin (05:09:08):
Two phones.
Mr. Vavra (05:09:10):
Where did you find these items?
Stacy Griffin (05:09:12):
In a room in my house that I kind of used for storage for his things.
Mr. Vavra (05:09:18):
And were they in a box? Were they in a dresser?
Stacy Griffin (05:09:20):
Yes, they were in a box in a closet.
Mr. Vavra (05:09:23):
And what caused you to go through this box?
Stacy Griffin (05:09:26):
I was moving and no one had ever come to get his things.
Mr. Vavra (05:09:32):
These two phones, did you know who they belonged to?
Stacy Griffin (05:09:35):
No, I just knew they were phones in a box.
Mr. Vavra (05:09:37):
But you felt the need to notify the detectives?
Stacy Griffin (05:09:40):
Yes, because I knew they weren't mine.
Mr. Vavra (05:09:43):
And what did the detectives instruct you to do?
Stacy Griffin (05:09:48):
Send them right away.
Mr. Vavra (05:09:50):
And did you do that?
Stacy Griffin (05:09:51):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:09:52):
Approach, Judge?
Judge (05:09:54):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:10:01):
I'm going to hand you what the State has marked as State's 166D and E. Start with State's 166D there. What are you looking at there? What is it?
Stacy Griffin (05:10:20):
An envelope.
Mr. Vavra (05:10:21):
Go ahead and open it. Do you recognize that item?
Stacy Griffin (05:10:38):
Yes.
(05:10:39)
What is it?
(05:10:40)
An Apple iPhone.
Mr. Vavra (05:10:41):
Okay. And do you know where it came from?
Stacy Griffin (05:10:41):
My house.
Mr. Vavra (05:10:41):
Okay.
Stacy Griffin (05:10:41):
In Whitesboro.
Mr. Vavra (05:10:41):
That's one of the ones you found?
Stacy Griffin (05:10:41):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:10:42):
Okay. You put that one away, and if you'll pull out 166E. Do you recognize that item?
Stacy Griffin (05:11:07):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:11:08):
And what is it?
Stacy Griffin (05:11:09):
An old iPhone.
Mr. Vavra (05:11:10):
And is that one of the ones you found at the house?
Stacy Griffin (05:11:12):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:11:13):
Okay. Do you know Brett Cole?
Stacy Griffin (05:11:22):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:11:23):
And do you know Dalton Ray?
Stacy Griffin (05:11:25):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:11:26):
And how do you know those two individuals?
Stacy Griffin (05:11:28):
They were Andrew's friends and they lived on a property that we had in a camper trailer.
Mr. Vavra (05:11:33):
Where at?
Stacy Griffin (05:11:33):
In the Whitesboro property, the raw land property that Andrew owned in a camper trailer.
Mr. Vavra (05:11:41):
And how do you know they lived there?
Stacy Griffin (05:11:42):
I saw them.
Mr. Vavra (05:11:46):
Some of these questions may seem silly, but -
Stacy Griffin (05:11:48):
Okay.
Mr. Vavra (05:11:48):
So you physically saw them living there?
Stacy Griffin (05:11:50):
I physically saw them, yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:11:52):
And roughly what timeframe were they living on the property?
Stacy Griffin (05:12:00):
It may be end of '20, and then in '21, summer, fall.
Mr. Vavra (05:12:11):
And say that was the end of it. Did they ever live on that property again, to your knowledge?
Stacy Griffin (05:12:16):
No, not that I'm aware.
Mr. Vavra (05:12:18):
Did you have contact with Mr. Ray?
Stacy Griffin (05:12:23):
In person, but very rarely.
Mr. Vavra (05:12:26):
Okay. Did you ever speak on the phone or text or Facebook message or communicate with Mr. Ray?
Stacy Griffin (05:12:34):
I don't believe so, no.
Mr. Vavra (05:12:36):
Okay. Did you speak, interact with Mr. Cole?
Stacy Griffin (05:12:38):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:12:39):
And were there times that you might have communicated with him via text, Facebook, something like that?
Stacy Griffin (05:12:44):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:12:45):
Okay. And what would be the reason for contacting him?
Stacy Griffin (05:12:48):
They lived on our property and it's in the middle of nowhere, about 20 minutes to the nearest even gas station. And I had lived in Mena at that time in a town, and I had cattle in the property beside where they were staying, and when I would come down to feed the cattle, I'd ask them if they needed any gas or food or anything of that nature.
Mr. Vavra (05:13:13):
And was there really ever any communication with him other than that?
Stacy Griffin (05:13:18):
No, not really. I wouldn't say so.
Mr. Vavra (05:13:21):
What were they doing living on that land?
Stacy Griffin (05:13:24):
They were cutting what's called pulpwood, so small trees, and selling it.
Mr. Vavra (05:13:31):
And that was your land or Andrew's land?
Stacy Griffin (05:13:34):
Yes, it was Andrew's land.
Mr. Vavra (05:13:35):
Okay. And do you know, were they being paid for their work?
Stacy Griffin (05:13:39):
I don't know any of the arrangement that they and Andrew had.
Mr. Vavra (05:13:45):
Do you know when the last time would be that you had any communication in any way, shape, form with Brett Cole?
Stacy Griffin (05:13:53):
Probably the late summer or fall of 2021.
Mr. Vavra (05:14:03):
Did you have any access to Andrew's Amazon account?
Stacy Griffin (05:14:07):
No, I did not.
Mr. Vavra (05:14:20):
I'm going to ask you now some very specific questions and I just want you to listen to them and do your best to just answer the question that is asked, okay?
Stacy Griffin (05:14:28):
Okay.
Mr. Vavra (05:14:30):
In September of 2021, did you see Andrew with an injury to his arm?
Stacy Griffin (05:14:38):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:14:48):
We talked before about a time when things weren't going well and there was a separation in your marriage, correct?
Stacy Griffin (05:14:56):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (05:14:57):
Was there a time where Andrew was attempting to harm you with a pillow?
Stacy Griffin (05:15:04):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (05:15:04):
Objection.
Judge (05:15:04):
Approach.
Mr. Vavra (05:17:48):
On one occasion when things weren't going well, did you make the comment to Mr. Griffin that you were going to be his third victim?
Stacy Griffin (05:18:01):
Yes, I did.
Mr. Vavra (05:18:02):
On another occasion in this period of turmoil, did you make the comment to Mr. Griffin that you were going to be his third victim?
Stacy Griffin (05:18:10):
Yes, I did.
Mr. Vavra (05:18:13):
Was there another period during this point where Mr. Griffin made a comment to you about something only you and Brett Cole know?
Stacy Griffin (05:18:23):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (05:18:23):
What was that comment?
Stacy Griffin (05:18:27):
He had said that if word gets out that this happened, that he had done this, then he knows that Brett wouldn't say anything, so he knew it would come from me and I can disappear whether or not he was in jail.
Mr. Vavra (05:19:04):
No further questions, Judge.
Mr. Shamansky (05:19:05):
One second, please.
Judge (05:19:06):
All right. Well, do we need a recess?
Mr. Shamansky (05:19:09):
If you don't mind, that moves along, I think ultimately.
Judge (05:19:11):
Okay. I know it hasn't been that long, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, and I don't believe this recess will be of any significant period of time. So if you'll go back to the jury room with the bailiff.
(05:19:22)
You guys can have a seat. Thank you. We're outside the presence of the jury.
Mr. Vavra (05:19:22):
Just off the record.
Judge (05:19:22):
Okay.
Mr. Shamansky (05:19:22):
We don't have anything. (silence)
Judge Christopher Berhalter (06:02:32):
Please be seated. Are you ready, Kristi?
Kristi Lipscomb (06:02:40):
Yes.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (06:02:40):
All right. We are back on the record in the State of Ohio versus Andrew Griffin. Mr. Griffin is present in the courtroom with his counsel. The State of Ohio is present. We are outside the presence of the jury right now. Mr. Vavra.
Joseph Vavra (06:02:53):
Thank you, Judge. To address one of the issues we had discussed earlier, once Ms. Griffin is done testifying, we intend to then move to playing a video deposition. After consulting with Defense...
Mr. Bebber (06:03:00):
... to then move to playing a video deposition. After consulting with defense counsel regarding some issues with that, we have come to an agreement that during the playing of that, we are going to mute the video from the 24:22 minute mark until the 24:42 minute mark, and then again from the 27:08 minute mark until the 28:00 minute mark.
Mr. Shmansky (06:03:27):
And we're in complete agreement with that, Your Honor.
Judge (06:03:29):
All right.
Mr. Shmansky (06:03:31):
And Judge, just quickly, we'll proffer. We understand the court's ruling, of course. State's Exhibit 159, that's the immunity agreement. And with that, I'm ready to conduct a very short cross.
Judge (06:03:54):
All right. Mr. Babber, do you have any response to that? Not the short cross, but the statement before that?
Mr. Bebber (06:04:04):
No, Judge.
Judge (06:04:05):
Okay. All right. With that said-
Speaker 17 (06:04:10):
Want the witness first?
Judge (06:04:11):
Yes. Where is Ms. Griffin?
(06:04:40)
All right. Ms. Griffin, I am going to remind you, you're still under oath.
Ms. Griffin (06:04:41):
Yes, sir.
Judge (06:05:42):
All right. Will you bring the jury?
(06:05:42)
Please everyone be seated.
(06:05:42)
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, once again, I appreciate your patience. Mr. Babber, you had concluded direct examination, correct?
Mr. Bebber (06:05:46):
Yes, Judge.
Judge (06:05:47):
Okay. Mr. Shmansky, do you wish to undertake any cross-examination?
Mr. Shmansky (06:05:50):
I do, sir.
Judge (06:05:51):
You may proceed.
Mr. Shmansky (06:05:51):
Thank you, Your Honor. Ms. Griffin, good afternoon.
Ms. Griffin (06:05:54):
Hello.
Mr. Shmansky (06:05:56):
So around September of 21 and the months following, it's correct to say that you began to suspect and then learned that your husband was being unfaithful, correct or incorrect?
Ms. Griffin (06:06:11):
Incorrect.
Mr. Shmansky (06:06:15):
So at no point did you, in 2021, suspect that your husband was being unfaithful?
Ms. Griffin (06:06:22):
No.
Mr. Shmansky (06:06:23):
And in beginning months of 2022, same question.
Ms. Griffin (06:06:29):
No.
Mr. Shmansky (06:06:29):
And at no time during your marriage did you have any suspicion, whatsoever, that your husband was being unfaithful?
Ms. Griffin (06:06:35):
No.
Mr. Shmansky (06:06:40):
One second, Your Honor.
(06:06:41)
Ma'am, let me ask this question a little differently, just to be clear. You don't get divorced until 2025, correct?
Ms. Griffin (06:07:08):
Officially, yes.
Mr. Shmansky (06:07:10):
Well, I'm speaking... Is there an unofficial divorce?
Ms. Griffin (06:07:13):
The process started in 2023.
Mr. Shmansky (06:07:16):
Okay. And you filed when?
Ms. Griffin (06:07:19):
2023.
Mr. Shmansky (06:07:20):
I'm sorry, ma'am?
Ms. Griffin (06:07:21):
2023.
Mr. Shmansky (06:07:22):
In 2023. What month?
Ms. Griffin (06:07:26):
April, June. Yes, April.
Mr. Shmansky (06:07:28):
Correct. April of 2023. And prior to that time, you have no inkling that your husband has been unfaithful, correct? Is that what you're telling the jury?
Ms. Griffin (06:07:39):
Correct.
Mr. Shmansky (06:07:40):
Okay. That's all I have. Thank you, Your Honor.
Judge (06:08:06):
Mr. Babber, any redirect?
Mr. Bebber (06:08:06):
No, Judge.
Judge (06:08:06):
All right. May this witness be excused?
Mr. Bebber (06:08:06):
Yes, Your Honor.
Judge (06:08:06):
Thank you. You are free to go.
Ms. Griffin (06:08:06):
Thank you.
Judge (06:08:06):
Mr. Babber, you may call your next witness.
Mr. Bebber (06:08:08):
Judge, at this point, the state wants to move forward with the playing of the video deposition of Arthur Cole.
Judge (06:08:16):
All right. Do you have that ready to proceed?
Mr. Bebber (06:08:18):
I do, Judge.
Judge (06:08:18):
All right. You may begin.
(06:08:26)
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you're going to hear a deposition. If at any time you can't hear or somehow can't see, just raise your hand and make me aware of that.
Mr. Bebber (06:08:52):
And Judge, before we play this, just want to indicate for the record that I believe we've marked the thumb drive containing this as court's exhibit 37 and the official transcript is 37A.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:09:02):
[inaudible 06:09:33] Watch your step. [inaudible 06:09:44] right up here. And will you raise your right hand? Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:09:02):
Yes, sir.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:09:02):
Please be seated. And sir, you're going to speak [inaudible 06:10:07] loud enough so the court reporter can hear.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:09:02):
Would that be loud enough?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:10:17):
Okay. You may proceed. Sir, can you tell us your name?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:10:18):
Arthur Dwayne Cole.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:10:19):
How do you spell Cole?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:10:20):
C-O-L-E.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:10:20):
Where are you from, sir?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:10:27):
Big Cedar, Oklahoma.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:10:28):
What's your address there?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:10:32):
22480 Patterson Road.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:10:36):
How long have you lived at that address?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:10:36):
I moved there in '90.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:10:36):
1990?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:10:36):
I moved out in 1990.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:10:36):
35 years old?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:10:47):
That's when I moved there.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:10:48):
All right. How old are you?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:10:48):
How old am I? 77.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:10:55):
Are you married?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:10:56):
Yes, sir.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:10:57):
How long have you been married?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:10:58):
57 years.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:11:00):
What's your wife's name?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:11:01):
Judy Lynn Cole.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:11:03):
And do you have children?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:11:05):
Got three of our own and one adopted.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:11:14):
Okay. Any grandchildren?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:11:14):
I don't know. Bunch of them.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:11:14):
You got bunch of them?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:11:14):
Seven or eight, nine, something like that.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:11:14):
Great-grandchildren?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:11:14):
Yes, sir.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:11:26):
And how many great-grandchildren do you have?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:11:27):
I can count them up. Two grandsons, and great-granddaughters.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:11:49):
Do you know Andrew Griffin?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:11:51):
Yes, sir.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:11:51):
Okay. Tell us how do you know Andrew Griffin?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:11:51):
My wife helped deliver him. He was born at home.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:11:55):
So he was born at home, your wife helped deliver him?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:12:01):
Yes.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:12:02):
Where was that in relation to your home?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:12:02):
Sir?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:12:06):
Where was that, his home, in relation to your home?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:12:09):
About, I'd say, 400 yards, something like that.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:12:22):
And when you say your wife helped deliver him, the house you're talking about, is that where he lived since 1990?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:12:22):
Yes.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:12:28):
Okay. So where you're living now, that home that he was born, that's 400 yards away?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:12:36):
Where I live at right now is where I lived in 19... That's where I moved to in 1990.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:12:41):
Okay.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:12:44):
And they lived right down the road. Theirs was on one side of the county road and ours is on the other side.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:12:55):
How did your wife come about to help deliver Mr. Griffin?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:13:03):
Well, because we know him and his... I think it was his daddy called us because the baby... Well, she was having the baby at home and they have what they call a mother's maid or something like that come and she was running late. So he called, come up there and got a hold of my wife to go down there.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:13:28):
Did your wife have any experience in doing that kind of stuff?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:13:32):
No. She had kids of her own, but that was in the hospital.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:13:36):
Sure.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:13:37):
But you don't want to stand by and let a baby be born with... If you could help them, help them.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:13:42):
Sure. Are you employed right now, sir?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:13:54):
A what?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:13:55):
Are you employed?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:13:56):
No, I draw Social Security.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:13:58):
Okay. What'd you do for a living?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:14:00):
Hung red lights and mostly.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:14:02):
Okay.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:14:06):
I worked for Sperry Rand.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:14:10):
Okay.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:14:11):
Sperry Rand, light. They hang red lights all over the United States.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:14:22):
Hang red lights?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:14:22):
Huh?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:14:22):
Red lights?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:14:23):
Yeah, red lights. If you go downtown, take a red light down, it'll have Sperry Rand's name on it.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:14:31):
Now, Mr. Griffin, you said lived about 400 yards away from you when he was born. Did he continue to live there as a child?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:14:39):
He lived there until him and his daddy got into it.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:14:42):
How old was he then, roughly?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:14:42):
Huh?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:14:46):
How old was he then approximately?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:14:49):
I'd say he was 12, 14 years old, something like that. He might have been a little older. I don't know. I can't remember for sure.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:14:58):
During his childhood, did you have a relationship with him?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:15:03):
Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:15:04):
Tell us about that?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:15:07):
Well, he'd come to the house when he was little. He mealed at the house about as much or more than he did down at his own house.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:15:18):
He mealed at your house?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:15:19):
Yeah. And we hunted together. We fished together. Well, we didn't do much fishing, but we hunted a lot together.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:15:29):
Fair to say you came to know him pretty well?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:15:32):
Got along with him?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:15:33):
Came to know him pretty well.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:15:34):
Oh, yeah. That's him sitting there too.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:15:36):
That's for the record [inaudible 06:15:41].
Video: Judge (06:15:36):
So does.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:15:47):
So in his teenage years, roughly, is when he moved out, did you still keep contact with him at that point?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:15:55):
I was in contact with him up even after he got married.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:15:57):
Okay. Tell us about your relationship with him after he moved out of his parents' house or father's house near your house?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:16:07):
Well, I didn't get to see him very much then. He moved in with TJ... I can't think of his last name. Anyway, he lived with him.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:16:22):
Did you maintain contact with him as an adult?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:16:26):
Contact with Andrew?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:16:27):
Yes.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:16:28):
Yeah.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:16:29):
How so? Just give us some kind of general example?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:16:33):
He'd come see me. We'd drive down the road. He'd be driving the company truck that he worked for the oil company. He'd come by and pick me up and we'd go driving down the road, watching for deer and squirrels and rabbits, stuff like that.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:16:51):
Why'd you look for those kinds of animals? Why were you looking for squirrel and deer and rabbits?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:16:56):
Just getting out of the house, having something to do.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:16:59):
Did you hunt together?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:17:01):
Yeah, during deer season.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:17:06):
Did Mr. Griffin refer to you and your wife in any particular way?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:17:11):
Refer to us as what?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:17:12):
What did he call you?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:17:13):
A lot of time he called me Papa and he called my wife Granny.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:17:20):
How did you view your relationship with Mr. Griffin?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:17:30):
How did I? He was almost like a son. We was together all the time and kids growing up there and if you're around them all... Well, you know how it would be if you was around kids seeing them growing up and growing up with your kids, you think of them as, you know, respect.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:17:49):
Do you have a grandson by the name of Brett Cole?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:17:52):
Yes sir, I do.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:17:56):
And did he ever live with you?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:17:57):
Did he ever live with me?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:17:58):
Yes.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:17:58):
Yes.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:18:01):
Tell us about his relationship with Mr. Griffin, if there was one?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:18:05):
Sir?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:18:05):
Well, did your grandson, Bret Cole, have a relationship with Andrew Griffin?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:18:14):
Yes.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:18:15):
What kind of a relationship?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:18:18):
I would say they had like two Blacked Eyed Peas. They liked this.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:18:24):
Tell us a little bit more about that. When you say two Blacked Eyed Peas, what's that mean to you?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:18:32):
Andrew had land and my grandson would go cut cedar post off of him and take them and sell them. Andrew never charged him nothing. He'd just come and go, draw all when he wanted to. They hunted together. They rode side by side. They'd go hunting and stuff together.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:18:57):
How long have the two of them known each other?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:19:02):
How long have they known each other? Ever since they were born, I guess. Brett, I think he's a little older than Andrew, but they know each other all the life.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:19:18):
Grew up together?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:19:20):
Yeah, off and on growing up together.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:19:22):
Did they maintain the relationship as adults?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:19:30):
Oh, they're like two Black Eyed Peas right now.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:19:32):
So that relationship continued on as adults?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:19:43):
Yeah.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:19:48):
At a certain point, were you aware that Mr. Griffin was conducting some business or within this area, Belmont County, Ohio, West Virginia?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:19:59):
I didn't understand exactly all you said.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:20:02):
At some point, did you learn or understand that Mr. Griffin was conducting business up in this area, Belmont County, Ohio, West Virginia?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:20:13):
Yeah. He told me that he went in business with the man in Virginia, in West Virginia, in a restaurant, but then this went on for a good while, and then he said that the man sold the restaurant and wouldn't pay him his money.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:20:34):
Did he ever tell you the name of the man?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:20:36):
No. Well, if he did, I can't remember.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:20:39):
Have you ever heard the name or can you remember the name Tom and Angela Scrushon?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:20:46):
I don't remember the name.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:20:52):
Okay. All right. Do you recall roughly when he was telling you about the business being sold?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:20:55):
I still don't know.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:21:03):
You said a few minutes ago... If you can't hear me, please let me know and I'll speak up. A few minutes ago you mentioned he talked to you about the restaurant being sold.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:21:14):
Yeah.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:21:14):
Do you recall when that conversation occurred or what was going on when that conversation occurred?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:21:20):
No, it was just visiting when that conversation occurred.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:21:27):
And what was his demeanor when he was talking to you about that?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:21:31):
He didn't like it.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:21:38):
Can you elaborate on that at all? Tell us why you feel that way?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:21:49):
No. If you was in business in a restaurant and somebody sold it out money, you wouldn't like it. And especially if you wouldn't get no money out of it, you weren't getting paid for it for your part.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:22:13):
Was there a certain time in Mr. Griffin's adult life where you noticed a change in behavior?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:22:21):
Yes. Big change.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:22:24):
Tell us about that. First, tell us how you knew Mr. Griffin to be a originally?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:22:32):
How he used to be?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:22:33):
Yes, sir.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:22:33):
He was a nice man. He was a nice man. In my opinion, he's just as good as man as you'd ever wanted to meet. But when that restaurant sold and he came back to Virginia that last nighttime and come back, that man changed from daylight till dark.
(06:22:58)
They won't like him saying it, but he turned out just like his daddy, acts like him, drinks like him, used drugs like him. He's just like his daddy and he can tell you what his daddy's like.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:23:13):
So this change happened after he returned from this area?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:23:15):
Yes. After he come back from last time from Virginia.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:23:19):
Are these things that you saw with your own eyes what you're talking about, his behavior?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:23:27):
Yes. Yes.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:23:29):
Sir, was there ever a time where you had a conversation or overheard a conversation with Mr. Griffin that made you uncomfortable?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:23:37):
Yeah.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:23:40):
Tell us first, I guess, how that situation started out. What was going on that day?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:23:43):
We were going to go riding the truck, driving down the road.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:23:52):
What do you mean by that? You mentioned that before. You get in the truck, you drive around with Mr. Griffin, look for animals. Is that kind of stuff you're talking about?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:23:59):
Okay. When you leave my house, you go to the national forest, and it's eight miles around the loop there back to my house. Well, we got a friend who's got a cabin about three and a half miles down around there, and we were all the time driving down and going around that loop. Well, we drove down that loop one time and Mr. Griffin, Andrew, was about a third or two-thirds drunk.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:24:36):
What makes you think that or say that?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:24:38):
Oh, I know when somebody's drinking, you smell it and taste it. It's in the air. If you pick a person that's drinking alcohol, whiskey, drinking beer, get in the vehicle where you can smell it. Well, you can smell it when I got in the vehicle with him.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:25:01):
Okay. So you're driving, you believe he's intoxicated, driving down to the cabin and back, is that fair to say?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:25:08):
Yeah, down the road. Down on the county road, it goes out onto the national forestry.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:25:16):
Okay. And what was the conversation?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:25:19):
The conversation that I hear?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:25:19):
Yeah.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:25:20):
He got a phone call and I heard Andrew say... He was a mumbling now. I'm going to tell you, he was about half or two-thirds drunk. But Andrew said, "Well, I had to go get my money and I killed two people." Now, he didn't say who, what, where, or when. That's just what he said.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:25:46):
So he was on the phone with someone else making his comment?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:25:48):
Huh?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:25:49):
He was on the phone with someone making his comment?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:25:52):
He was, yes.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:25:53):
Did you hear who was on the other end of the phone?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:25:54):
No.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:25:54):
Okay.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:25:57):
He didn't have it on loudspeaker on the phone. I suspect it was my grandson. I suspected it was Brett. That's who I think it was.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:26:11):
Brett Bowling?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:26:11):
Yes.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:26:11):
But you don't know for sure?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:26:11):
Huh?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:26:11):
You don't know for sure?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:26:14):
I don't know for sure, no. It could have been anybody.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:26:20):
Did he give any additional context to talk anything more about specifics that you recall?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:26:27):
No. No. No.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:26:28):
And do you recall a timeframe for when this occurred?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:26:34):
No, not for sure. Oh, I know it was just... You mean what time of day?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:26:40):
Well, what time of day was it, if you remember?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:26:42):
It was like after six or seven o'clock in the evening.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:26:48):
And do you remember what season it was?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:26:55):
Season. It wasn't no season. We were just driving [inaudible 06:26:56].
Video: Mr. Babber (06:26:56):
It was fall, spring, summer, winter.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:27:01):
I can't remember.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:27:02):
You had talked before about before and after he came to this area, there was a change in behavior.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:27:10):
Yeah.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:27:10):
Was that conversation, do you recall, before or after he came from this area?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:27:18):
That was after he made... That was after this, when he come back. So it had to have been when he made that decision, when he made that comment, we talked. It was after he come back to Virginia his last time.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:27:52):
Did he talk at all about where this might have occurred specifically?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:27:59):
On what?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:28:00):
Where?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:28:02):
In Virginia?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:28:04):
Well, during this phone call, did he say where this occurred, what he says here?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:28:09):
In Virginia.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:28:09):
Okay.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:28:09):
West Virginia. That's all I ever hear, was West Virginia.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:28:30):
How did your interaction with him end that day?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:28:35):
Not very good. I didn't like the way he talked. I didn't like the way he drank. I don't like... It's just that's... I don't feel comfortable around that. I've never been around that time. I've been around a lot of it, but I'm never comfortable with it and I get away from it.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:29:01):
This was when you were returning back to your house now?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:29:06):
When he took me back to the house?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:29:09):
That's what I'm saying. He took you back to the house?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:29:11):
Yes, he had to. We was down the road. There's no pallet, no car, nobody down in there.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:29:18):
Was he still on the phone when you got out of the car?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:29:21):
No. No, he was done. He got off the phone.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:29:23):
Call terminated during the ride?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:29:26):
Yeah.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:29:26):
Did you and he have a conversation directly that day?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:29:29):
Nope.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:29:30):
You didn't ask him what he was talking about?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:29:33):
No. All I wanted to do was get away from him. If I was in the car with somebody, like I was there, and they say I had to kill two people, I'm going to get away from them. But now, Andrew's like my grandson.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:29:55):
Sir, you left his vehicle. The two of you did not talk more about the situation, fair to say?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:30:03):
We didn't to talk more about the situation. And Andrew told me, he said, "Buddy," he said, "Who would ever expect that a little boy like me, growing up out here in the country, could ever do what I would do?" We never had another conversation after that.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:30:23):
Now, is that the day that you took the ride in the car or was that a different day?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:30:27):
A couple of days after that.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:30:29):
Okay. Well, I'm talking now back to the conversation in the car that you overheard.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:30:34):
Yeah.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:30:35):
So you exit the car, correct? And he goes wherever he goes, you don't know?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:30:40):
He drove and went up to my neighbor's house. He went up to Phillip's and talked to Phillip when he left my house.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:30:48):
That Phillip Rockwater.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:30:52):
Mm-hmm.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:30:53):
Okay. Now you overheard this conversation. Did you report it to any authorities or to... Did you call anyone?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:31:00):
No. When I heard that, I thought he was lying, like always, just like my grandson.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:31:09):
Tell us about that. Tell us about how you know Mr. Griffin, and you mentioned he wanted to lie. Why would he lie about this?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:31:18):
Tell me about Andrew. Andrew was a good kid growing up. Everybody respected him. But after he grew up and he went partners with a guy or says he went partners in a guy in Virginia, in a restaurant, and when Andrew come back home the last time, he's something else. He starts to lying, drinking, drugging, does anything he can get violent with.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:31:53):
At the time that you heard that, did you know whether there had been-
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:32:01):
No, I didn't know that. That was way before we ever knowed anything about anybody being killed.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:32:06):
So you didn't even know there was adult homicide in Oklahoma County?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:32:08):
No. And really, I didn't know if he was even in partners with this guy in Virginia, because you can't believe nothing he says.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:32:21):
Well, Okay. So fair enough. The things he was telling you, you didn't know anything other than what he was telling you, correct?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:32:32):
Yeah. Right. Now, you want me to finish telling you some more or do you want me to.... violent killer and tell you stuff?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:32:43):
Hold on one second. Did you see Mr. Griffin again after that car ride?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:32:49):
No.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:32:51):
The car ride where you overheard him?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:32:54):
When we made that trip and he went up to Phillips and talked to Philip. And I ain't seen him no more.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:33:02):
So was that the last time you saw him when you overheard this conversation on the phone?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:33:11):
We heard the conversation on the phone the same day that he went up to Phillips.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:33:16):
Okay. And that's what I'm trying to figure out, is after the day of the phone conversation you overheard, did you see him another time after that?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:33:26):
Today.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:33:26):
Mr. Griffin.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:33:26):
Today.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:33:29):
Okay. All right.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:33:29):
I've seen him sitting up there.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:33:34):
You had talked... Right?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:34:09):
Yeah.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:34:10):
But you said that was on a different date than the car conversation, right?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:34:13):
Right.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:34:15):
When was that comment made to you?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:34:19):
Which comments?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:34:22):
"Would you believe a country boy could do something like this?"
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:34:28):
I can't remember if it's the day after he went up to Phillips or the day before he went up to Phillips.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:34:33):
Okay. The last time you saw him-
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:34:38):
It may have been the day before that we had the phone conversations when he told me about that.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:34:49):
Okay. The last time you saw him before today, what was your conversation like with him?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:34:56):
Like with him? Wasn't very good. Because I wanted to get away from him aa quick as I could. And then that was when he went up to Phillips.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:35:07):
Was there a time where you lost contact with him?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:35:10):
Lost contact with him? Yeah.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:35:15):
What happened that you lost contact with him?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:35:28):
I never had contact with him after that.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:35:32):
Was there a time where he wasn't in the area anymore?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:35:32):
Oh yeah.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:35:40):
There was a time he left the area, fair to say?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:35:42):
Yeah, he left Oklahoma.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:35:44):
Okay. Did he come see you before he left Oklahoma?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:35:49):
Oh yeah. He come to the house, walked in the house, shook my hand and said, "Papa, you'll probably not see me no more." And left. That was all I said. And that was all it was at...
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:36:00):
That was all that was said and that was all at last contact we had.
(06:36:13)
On that day, he pulled up out there in the front, got out, come in and shook my hand, said, "Papa, you'll probably never see me no more." When he went out and he told his Granny, he told my wife, he said, "Granny," he said, "Bye."
Video: Mr. Babber (06:37:11):
Did there come a time later on when you, I guess, learned some more of the details about this double homicide in Beaumont County Jail?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:37:20):
Yeah.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:37:26):
Once you learned that, did you recall any other conversations that you heard Mr. Griffin have that you thought might be related?
(06:37:40)
What about your grandson [inaudible 06:37:42]
Mr. Schimanski (06:37:42):
Judge, let the record reflect that you should have said that. I believe he indicated no.
Judge (06:37:45):
I didn't hear the answer.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:37:45):
I think he said no.
Judge (06:37:50):
Can you re-ask the question before you move to the next one?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:37:58):
Sure. After you learned some more details about what might have happened in Belmont County, did you recall any other conversations you heard Mr. Griffin take part in that Mike had had some details about what happened here?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:38:48):
You mean about a motorcycle?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:38:48):
Well, did you hear a conversation about a motorcycle?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:38:48):
Oh yeah, I heard a conversation about a motorcycle.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:38:48):
Who was taking part in this conversation?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:38:48):
Me and my grandson.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:38:48):
Did you say you and your grandson?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:38:48):
Yeah.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:38:48):
Was Mr. Griffin a part of this conversation?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:38:48):
A what?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:38:48):
Was Mr. Griffin a part of this conversation?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:38:50):
He wasn't there.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:38:52):
Okay. So was there ever a conversation between your grandson and Mr. Griffin that you were a part of?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:38:59):
Yeah, a good while back. Are you still talking about a motorcycle?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:39:05):
Talking about, you mentioned a conversation with a motorcycle, right?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:39:11):
Yeah.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:39:13):
Was this a conversation that you overheard or were a part of?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:39:21):
I just heard it.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:39:22):
Okay. So who was the conversation between? Who were the parties in the conversation that you just heard it?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:39:30):
Andrew Griffin and Brett Cole.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:39:35):
Where was this conversation happening?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:39:37):
At Andrew's place. Only Andrew's place.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:39:42):
Was it his home?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:39:42):
No. No, it just wasn't his place. It wasn't his home.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:39:42):
So property he owned?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:39:42):
Yeah, just property.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:39:51):
You were there?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:39:54):
I was at it.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:39:54):
Okay. Anyone else around?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:39:58):
Sat and had a fireplace built up outside.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:40:04):
Okay. So conversation around fire kit?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:40:06):
There was another young boy there, but I don't know his name.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:40:09):
Okay. So just the four of you then?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:40:13):
Yeah. A friend of Andrew's and Brett. I know he was a friend of Brett's. I said Fred and Andrew's because Andrew and Brett have been friends all the time. So all of us.
Judge (06:40:25):
All right, you may proceed.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:40:29):
I'm just asking you what you recall hearing being discussed between Mr. Griffin and your grandson about the motorcycle. Can you remember that conversation as opposed to something else you might have heard later on?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:40:47):
Well, I can't remember all what was in the conversation because when they talk about something, they talk about hunting, they talk about this and they talk about that and it all runs together.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:40:56):
I'm going to ask you to rehash the entire conversation that you had brought up to talk about the motorcycle, but do you remember the specifics of what was talked about the motorcycle?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:41:10):
About what?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:41:13):
Just about the motorcycle. Do you remember that conversation?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:41:17):
The murder was when we was in the pickup. That's all I know about the murder part.
Mr. Schimanski (06:41:24):
I'm sorry [inaudible 06:41:26] will you come a little closer and speak loudly?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:41:38):
Come up a little closer.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:41:38):
I'm standing by the mic that might be a little louder for you. Is that better?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:41:40):
Okay.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:41:45):
What I'm asking you about is you said there's a conversation at Mr. Griffin's place around fire.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:41:53):
Yeah.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:41:54):
Mr. Griffin and then Brett Cole, your grandson talked.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:41:56):
Yeah.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:41:57):
And there's talk about a motorcycle. Is that-
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:42:01):
I didn't hear about a murder part there. All I heard was the motorcycle.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:42:06):
Yeah, exactly. All I want to know is what you heard about right then and there, that conversation about a motorcycle, if you can recall what was being discussed.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:42:17):
What was being said about a motorcycle?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:42:18):
Yes.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:42:19):
They was going to get a motorcycle. He had to get Andrew... give Brett the money to buy him a motorcycle.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:42:34):
They were talking about that at the fire?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:42:39):
And they was talking about ditching a motorcycle in Red River in the quicksand. Then they talked about tearing the motorcycle apart and just sell it as part. Now what that was over, I don't know. I'm just an old country and I can't tie it all together what all has happened.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:43:04):
Fair enough, sir. And that's why we're asking the questions. That conversation, was that before or after the talk in the car that you overheard?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:43:20):
It was before.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:43:20):
Okay. Going back to the conversation on the phone, when you were in the car, do you recall, was there any talk about where this occurred, the crime scene itself and what happened there?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:43:44):
About whatever? No.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:43:45):
About what happened, where these suspected murder occurred?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:43:51):
He said that in Virginia.
Video: Mr. Babber (06:43:51):
Okay. Okay.
(06:43:51)
No other questions, Judge.
Judge (06:43:51):
All right. Mr. Schimanski [inaudible 06:44:05]
Mr. Schimanski (06:43:51):
Are you okay? Do you need a break?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:43:51):
No, I'm good.
Speaker X (06:43:51):
[inaudible 06:44:43]
Mr. Schimanski (06:45:10):
All right. Mr. Cole, good afternoon.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:45:11):
Good afternoon.
Mr. Schimanski (06:45:11):
You hear me okay?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:45:12):
Yeah.
Mr. Schimanski (06:45:15):
All right. So let's just be clear about a few of the details that you just testified to, okay?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:45:19):
Okay.
Mr. Schimanski (06:45:22):
When Andrew comes back to Oklahoma, you guys hop in the truck, right?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:45:29):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Schimanski (06:45:30):
He's either one third or a half drunk, right?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:45:34):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Schimanski (06:45:35):
You got out of a cabin, right?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:45:36):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Schimanski (06:45:37):
You hear a little quick conversation about-
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:45:44):
Killing two people.
Mr. Schimanski (06:45:44):
Huh?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:45:44):
Killing two people.
Mr. Schimanski (06:45:48):
Yeah, about killing two people and no further details. You've already acknowledged that, correct?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:45:53):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Schimanski (06:45:54):
Significantly, that was the last time that you ever had any talk with him, right?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:46:01):
That's the last day.
Mr. Schimanski (06:46:01):
Yeah, last day.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:46:05):
Except he did come back the next day and come in the house and shook my hand and told me bye and granny bye.
Mr. Schimanski (06:46:13):
Right, right. All that testimony is perfectly clear. That's the extent of the conversations you had-
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:46:19):
With Andrew.
Mr. Schimanski (06:46:20):
With Andrew.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:46:21):
Yes.
Mr. Schimanski (06:46:21):
Gotcha. Now, just to nail a few other little details down, you got a granddaughter named Stacy, right?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:46:30):
A granddaughter?
Mr. Schimanski (06:46:31):
Goddaughter, sorry.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:46:34):
No, I got a... I don't have a daughter.
Mr. Schimanski (06:46:38):
I'm sorry, sir?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:46:39):
I don't have a daughter.
Mr. Schimanski (06:46:40):
I said, I'm sorry. God-daughter it's a term of ours, I guess. Do you know a woman named Stacy?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:46:48):
Stacey Griffin?
Mr. Schimanski (06:46:49):
Yeah.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:46:49):
Andrew's ex-wife?
Mr. Schimanski (06:46:52):
Right.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:46:52):
Yes, I know her.
Mr. Schimanski (06:46:53):
You know her, right?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:46:54):
I know her.
Mr. Schimanski (06:46:55):
Okay.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:46:56):
And you know now I got in a fight with her through him.
Mr. Schimanski (06:47:01):
Right. That's all I'm asking.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:47:02):
Yeah.
Mr. Schimanski (06:47:02):
Okay. So you know who that individual is?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:47:03):
Yeah.
Mr. Schimanski (06:47:03):
Right?
Speaker X (06:47:03):
Hold on for one second.
Mr. Schimanski (06:47:03):
Yes, sir.
Speaker X (06:47:03):
You may [inaudible 06:47:13].
Mr. Schimanski (06:47:26):
Now you've also referenced... You hear me okay?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:47:29):
Yeah.
Mr. Schimanski (06:47:30):
You referenced the campfire meeting, right? And that meeting occurred before you went for the drive in the truck.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:47:40):
Yeah.
Mr. Schimanski (06:47:42):
How long before? A year before? A month before?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:47:48):
I can't remember how long, because it's been going on for a long time. I would say from when I was there to there. I ain't for sure.
Speaker 18 (06:47:57):
I'm sorry, sir-
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:48:05):
I don't know. I don't know how long.
Mr. Schimanski (06:48:09):
Okay.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:48:09):
It may have been a week or two. I don't know. I can't remember that.
Mr. Schimanski (06:48:13):
So it could have been a week or two beforehand?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:48:15):
Yeah, it could have been.
Mr. Schimanski (06:48:17):
You say Brett Cole was there?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:48:20):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Schimanski (06:48:20):
Right. Then a friend of Brett's, right?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:48:22):
Huh?
Mr. Schimanski (06:48:23):
You said there was a friend of Brett's present?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:48:26):
Yes.
Mr. Schimanski (06:48:27):
What's that person's name?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:48:28):
I don't know.
Mr. Schimanski (06:48:30):
How do you know the friend?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:48:31):
Because they helped Brett cut pine off of Andrew. They were together. They stayed together.
Mr. Schimanski (06:48:42):
So the person that was there, whose name you don't know, was a guy that helped Brett Pole cut down the pine?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:48:51):
Yeah.
Mr. Schimanski (06:48:51):
Did he live in the neighborhood?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:48:56):
No. Lived at Hugo, I think.
Mr. Schimanski (06:48:58):
Lived where? Hugo? Where's Hugo?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:49:01):
Oklahoma.
Mr. Schimanski (06:49:02):
Okay. But he lived in it. How close to you was he?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:49:04):
It's about from Hugo, it's probably 90 miles to Hugo.
Mr. Schimanski (06:49:10):
Okay. So that's a pretty good distance, right?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:49:12):
Yeah.
Mr. Schimanski (06:49:13):
And that was the first time you'd seen that gentleman?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:49:15):
No, I've seen him around with Brett at other times. He'd rode horses, leave my house and ride horses with Brett, but I never talked to him. I didn't know him. He was just with my grandson. Not like with Andrew. With Andrew, he'd grown up there. I know him all his life, but this boy I didn't know.
Mr. Schimanski (06:49:40):
So just to be clear, I want to make sure I got your testimony squared away. You're sitting around a campfire. It's at 9:00, right?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:49:48):
Yeah, it's late in the evening right before dark.
Mr. Schimanski (06:49:53):
How do you know that they're there kicking it at the campfire? Do they come and get you?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:50:01):
Let's see.
Mr. Schimanski (06:50:03):
Why would you be at the campfire and you'd leave Granny at home?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:50:11):
I can't remember why I left there at home.
Mr. Schimanski (06:50:14):
Well, that's not something you'd normally do at night, you'd have something.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:50:16):
Oh yeah. We do that all the time.
Mr. Schimanski (06:50:19):
You leave Granny at home and go to the fire?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:50:21):
Yeah, go down to my... I've got 80 and 70 and 80-year-old friends that has campfires up down in the woods there. I leave mama's house and go down there. I don't take the woman with a bunch of men.
Mr. Schimanski (06:50:36):
Oh, okay. So you got invited by whom to go to this campfire?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:50:43):
Andrew Griffin.
Mr. Schimanski (06:50:43):
Huh?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:50:43):
Andrew Griffin.
Mr. Schimanski (06:50:44):
He just called you up?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:50:47):
Yeah. I think that's how it was.
Mr. Schimanski (06:50:49):
Well, I mean, how else would he have invited you? He didn't come to the house?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:50:49):
Huh?
Mr. Schimanski (06:50:53):
He didn't come to the house.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:50:55):
I'm not... Well, back then he did.
Mr. Schimanski (06:50:58):
So he did come to the house and say, " Hey, Grant, come on down to the campfire."
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:51:02):
Oh no, he didn't do that.
Mr. Schimanski (06:51:03):
Okay. So then the only other way he could have done it-
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:51:07):
He called me.
Mr. Schimanski (06:51:09):
Huh?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:51:09):
He called me.
Mr. Schimanski (06:51:09):
He called you. Okay. What was your cell phone number at the time of this phone call?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:51:12):
Same as it is right now.
Mr. Schimanski (06:51:13):
All right. Tell it to me.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:51:15):
I don't know. I have to look up.
Mr. Schimanski (06:51:16):
Go ahead. Take your time. No hurry.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:51:19):
I have never changed my phone number.
(06:51:43)
My phone number is 1-9 [inaudible 06:51:45]
Mr. Schimanski (06:51:54):
Mr. Cole, that's the number that you would've received a call on from Andrew saying, "Hey, come on down and go have a little campfire." Right?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:52:01):
Yeah.
Mr. Schimanski (06:52:03):
That you believe was about two days before you took a ride.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:52:07):
Oh, no. I can't say it was two days or three days. I can't remember that for sure.
Mr. Schimanski (06:52:14):
Well, as I understood your testimony-
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:52:16):
I can't remember if it might have been two weeks before.
Mr. Schimanski (06:52:17):
So it could have been 14 days before. Let me ask you, this all occurred that last time that Andrew came to Oklahoma, right?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:52:32):
Well, I'd say so, but I don't remember how many times he come to Oklahoma. How many in that time?
Mr. Schimanski (06:52:39):
Mr. Cole, you kept saying this was the last time. Those were your words.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:52:44):
The last time that me and Andrew, the last time we had a conversation is when we rode down to George's cabin and back.
Mr. Schimanski (06:52:53):
Right. I got that.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:52:55):
I think it was the next day is when he'd come and shove her hand. I hadn't seen Andrew since until today.
Mr. Schimanski (06:53:02):
I understand. This campfire meeting was during that same basic time period, right?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:53:10):
It was before that, yes.
Mr. Schimanski (06:53:11):
Sir, it wasn't like a year before, right? Or was it?
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:53:17):
No, it wasn't a year. Oh no, it wasn't a year.
Mr. Schimanski (06:53:20):
Okay. Of course there will be a phone record because we know it was at night and we know you got a call from Andrew. On the day that the two of you were going to go for this car ride, this truck ride when he picked you up when he was having the bag, he called you that day too and said, "Hey, I'm coming to get you."
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:53:44):
No, he called me. He just showed up.
Mr. Schimanski (06:53:46):
Okay. Just showed up.
Video: Arthur Dwayne Cole (06:53:46):
Okay. All right.
Mr. Schimanski (06:53:49):
I think that's all I have. One second, Your Honor. Sir, one last question. If you don't mind pulling up that code.
Judge (06:54:37):
Mr. Maver, does that conclude the deposition of Mr. Cole?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:54:39):
Yes, Judge.
Judge (06:54:39):
All right. Does the state wish to call another witness today?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:54:42):
No, Judge.
Judge (06:54:46):
Okay. Then ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we're going to conclude for today. Remember the admonitions from this court. Do not speak to anybody about this case. Do not let anyone try to have any discussions with you about this case. Do not watch any media reports about this trial or case. Do not undertake any independent investigation yourself about this case, and do not post anything online about this case.
(06:55:14)
Again, thank you all for being attentive today. You'll report 8:45 AM tomorrow to the jury room. Thank you. Mr. Maver, we're outside the presence of the jury. Is there any issues the state needs to raise before we're recessed for the day?
Video: Mr. Babber (06:56:03):
Not from the state, Judge. Mr. Schimanski?
Mr. Schimanski (06:56:05):
Your Honor, briefly, I wanted to renew our objection to this previous witness's video deposition, his lack of appearance in the courtroom. As we previously asserted, we believe violates our client's right to confrontation. I know the court had received, and this issue's already been briefed. I'm just renewing the objection for all the reasons that we had previously stated in writing.
Judge (06:56:31):
I understand, Mr. Mr. Schimanski, the court has issued a ruling on your motion. It's not the same thing. However, your objection is noted. It is overruled though.
Mr. Schimanski (06:56:39):
Yes, sir. Thank you.
Judge (06:56:40):
All right. Any other issues you need to address?
Mr. Schimanski (06:56:42):
No, Your Honor. I guess we could just approach on some timing for tomorrow just to give the court a heads-up. We can go off the record.
Judge (06:56:48):
Well [inaudible 06:56:51] court will be in recess.
