Judge (05:12):
Mr. Lale, how far do you have to drive in the morning and afternoon?
Raymond Lale (05:15):
Judge, I live in Lilburn, Georgia. Yesterday was nice and it wasn't that much, about an hour and 15. Today it was about an hour and 40.
Judge (05:25):
Oh wow. We have some lawyers that come in to try cases and they'll just stay here. Not that we have a Ritz or anything that's particularly good to offer, but sometimes folks do that.
Raymond Lale (05:37):
Yeah. I trust my Google Maps today, took me kind of over the river and through the woods and I realized when I got on the interstate, there was a big wreck behind me.
Judge (05:47):
Interstate's scary. Sometimes well laid plans don't work because there's a wreck or something.
Raymond Lale (05:57):
I've turned that Google on everywhere I go because if you don't, you end up in something you like [inaudible 00:06:07] I should have done.
Judge (08:24):
That's right.
(08:24)
Diane, are they here?
Speaker 1 (08:28):
There's a river down here. [inaudible 00:08:29] there's a river down there.
Judge (08:44):
Morning.
(08:58)
All right. I'm told the jury is here. Are y'all ready? Ready State?
Raymond Lale (09:02):
Ready Your Honor.
Judge (09:02):
Okay. Let's have them back. Good morning and welcome back. Thank you for being here promptly. At this point, I'm going to invite the State to call another witness.
State (10:05):
Thank you, your honor. If it please the court, the State calls Michael Logan. Michael Logan.
Judge (10:52):
Good morning, sir. If you'll remain standing, raise your right hand to receive an oath. Do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give in the matter before the court will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?
Michael Logan (10:58):
I do.
Judge (10:58):
Please have a seat and use the mic.
State (11:06):
Good morning, sir. If you can tell the jury your name please.
Michael Logan (11:10):
Michael Logan.
State (11:11):
Just common spelling, Michael Logan?
Michael Logan (11:13):
Yes.
State (11:13):
All right. Sir, how are you employed now today?
Michael Logan (11:16):
I own a landscaping business.
State (11:18):
Do you work around here in Paulding and the surrounding area?
Michael Logan (11:21):
Yes.
State (11:21):
How long have you done that, sir?
Michael Logan (11:24):
Six years.
State (11:25):
What's your age, if you don't mind me asking?
Michael Logan (11:26):
35.
State (11:29):
Okay, sir. At some point around, if I can orient you to 2019, December, Christmastime, holidays, 2019, how were you employed at that time?
Michael Logan (11:37):
Metro Atlanta Ambulance Paramedic.
State (11:40):
Okay. Tell me the difference, please, and the jury, please, what's the difference, paramedic and the term called EMT?
Michael Logan (11:47):
EMT is like the entry level into emergency medical services. It's like a year long school. Paramedics, about another year and a half school, just more advanced, can provide basic or advanced life support as opposed to EMT, which is just basic life support.
State (12:09):
All right. And forgive me, I had it backwards at first because I don't know.
Michael Logan (12:13):
Okay.
State (12:14):
So you finished high school. Did you go to any college, any medical training in college?
Michael Logan (12:18):
I just went to Chattahoochee Tech for EMT.
State (12:22):
Okay. You went straight to EMT school. And so do you accomplish your paramedic certification first and then go on further?
Michael Logan (12:30):
So I did EMT basic first.
State (12:33):
EMT first.
Michael Logan (12:34):
Yes. And then I got hired at Metro and they have their own paramedic program and I went through their paramedic program.
State (12:43):
And you said about two and a half total years of instruction?
Michael Logan (12:44):
Yes.
State (12:45):
All right, sir. So tell the jury please what your day-to-day operations or your duties would be on the job around that time period, 2019 as a paramedic.
Michael Logan (12:55):
We worked full 24 hour shifts. We were constantly on call for the 24 hours for 911 calls through our dispatch.
State (13:07):
24 hours on and then how many-
Michael Logan (13:08):
48 off.
State (13:09):
48 off. What was your geographic area that you have to cover around that time?
Michael Logan (13:16):
We had a station and we covered ... The station I was at that night was on Ridge Road, but we were subject to run any call in the county.
State (13:28):
Okay. So are you limited by county jurisdiction then? You wouldn't go to Douglas or ...
Michael Logan (13:33):
Metro had Cobb County. They still do. And we would run calls in Cobb as well if we were closer than a different unit.
State (13:41):
And maybe over into West Cobb or Southwest Cobb, something like that, closer to here.
Michael Logan (13:45):
Yes.
State (13:46):
All right, sir, did you get an opportunity to have a call that evening to respond to an area of 34, 33, 34 Braemill Drive or Braemill Court?
Michael Logan (13:56):
Yes, sir.
State (13:57):
How did you get that call?
Michael Logan (14:00):
We were actually on a different call and I believe we got canceled or got a refusal. I believe it was a car wreck. It was actually on Ridge Road. I heard the call go out. We left that call and went to the Braemill call.
State (14:16):
When you say we were on a call, but it got canceled, you're saying that somebody just refuses services?
Michael Logan (14:21):
Right. The patient did not want to go to the hospital, so we left.
State (14:26):
So you say you don't want to go to the hospital. Are you driving a medical ambulance then?
Michael Logan (14:30):
Correct. My EMT drives and I was in the passenger seat.
State (14:34):
Okay. Anybody else on board that evening on your shift?
Michael Logan (14:38):
No.
State (14:40):
Is it common for just you two to be in the ambulance at most times?
Michael Logan (14:45):
Yes, sir. Sometimes we'd have what they call a third rider, a student or a new hire, but we did not have any of that that night.
State (14:56):
When you say you got a call, tell me how that works, please. Do you just hear it on the radio?
Michael Logan (15:01):
Correct.
State (15:02):
Okay. So you heard ... What did you hear?
Michael Logan (15:06):
They dispatched a person with a gunshot wound. Obviously that's pretty high priority, so we went lights and sirens. And I do remember on the way they said it was a possible suicide attempt and to stage, which means wait outside the neighborhood or wherever you feel safe to let law enforcement clear the scene before we go in.
State (15:31):
All right. And let me show you something that's been marked and admitted into evidence already. This will be State's Exhibit Four. If I can show you State's Exhibit Four. May I approach the witness, please?
Judge (15:44):
You may, yes.
State (15:46):
Do you recognize State's Exhibit Four at all? I know it's been a long time, sir.
Michael Logan (15:51):
Yes, sir.
State (15:51):
What is State's Exhibit Four, please?
Michael Logan (15:54):
That's the residence we responded to.
State (15:56):
Okay. So you still have a memory of how it looked that evening?
Michael Logan (15:58):
yeah.
State (15:59):
Do you know what time you may have, approximately what time you may have went to 83 Braemill Court?
Michael Logan (16:08):
I believe it was after midnight, somewhere around there.
State (16:10):
Early morning hours?
Michael Logan (16:11):
Yes, sir.
State (16:14):
So when you arrived, you said you had to stage first or you're instructed to stage. What does that mean?
Michael Logan (16:22):
Like I said, basically we find somewhere that we feel safe away from the scene since it was a gunshot wound. We don't know what's going on. We have to wait for Sheriff's Department to call a code four or the scene is safe for us to enter.
State (16:38):
Is that standard protocol?
Michael Logan (16:39):
Yes. On a call like that, yes.
State (16:42):
So did you receive the code four signal four to proceed on?
Michael Logan (16:45):
Yes, sir.
State (16:46):
Do you know how long you staged before you were able to get the signal four?
Michael Logan (16:52):
I don't remember exact time. I know it was several minutes.
State (16:56):
Did you eventually make your way to that home in State's Exhibit Four, the house at 83 Braemill Court?
Michael Logan (17:00):
Yes, sir.
State (17:01):
Okay. Were there law enforcement officers already there?
Michael Logan (17:08):
Correct, yes.
State (17:09):
Were there fire officials already there?
Michael Logan (17:11):
There was a ... I believe it was a battalion chief. He had a white uniform on. Typically, the firemen wear a blue uniform, and I believe he canceled the fire truck that was staging with us.
State (17:27):
Okay.
Michael Logan (17:27):
So they left and we went in.
State (17:30):
All right. And can you describe to the jury, is this a home that's on a main road, like Ridge Road, or is this off in a subdivision?
Michael Logan (17:37):
It was just inside a subdivision, I believe.
State (17:41):
And you would've staged, I guess, somewhere just outside-
Michael Logan (17:43):
Yeah, outside. Yes, sir.
State (17:44):
And you say that there was a fire truck on the way or an apparatus staging with you. What was with you?
Michael Logan (17:51):
Correct. It was like a fire engine or possibly a rescue through the fire department.
State (17:56):
All right. And you say that that battalion chief had canceled the signal for the fire apparatus. Do you know why?
Michael Logan (18:04):
Because I'm assuming he was already there-
State (18:08):
... Okay. I'll stop you. You don't want to assume-
Michael Logan (18:09):
Okay.
State (18:09):
... You don't know.
Michael Logan (18:09):
Okay.
State (18:11):
Did you hear anything over the radio though that caused you to believe ... That changed the nature of the scene as you knew it when you first arrived or first went out to it?
Michael Logan (18:21):
Yes, sir. Our dispatcher came over the radio and said we were clear for code 4 to enter the scene and the patient was signal 48, which means DOA or deceased on arrival.
State (18:35):
All right. And then when you're staging, when do you get the signal 48, on your way to the home or you're still staging?
Michael Logan (18:44):
We were staging and we got the signal 48 as they said, "Come on in, it's code 4."
State (18:50):
Okay. So at that point you've got signal 48, the person's not, I guess, revivable.
Michael Logan (18:56):
Correct.
State (18:56):
I don't know the word you would use.
Michael Logan (18:57):
Yes, sir.
State (18:59):
That's my word, I guess. So how, if in any way, how does that change your approach to the scene as you enter?
Michael Logan (19:10):
I'm still a paramedic, so I still need to go in and review the patient, but to me, the SO or Sheriff's office and the battalion chief are medically trained as well. So they've already looked at the patient, obviously. So in my mind, he was deceased beyond resuscitation.
State (19:34):
Let me show you another photograph, sir. It's already been admitted into evidence. See if you remember this, sir. I'm going to show you what's been admitted into evidence already as State's Exhibit ... I got to have my glasses. That's not good. Sorry about that. State's Exhibit 30. If I can show you State's Exhibit 30 real quick. Judge, may I approach?
Judge (19:59):
You may, sir.
State (20:01):
May I approach opposing Counsel?
Judge (20:04):
Yes, sir.
State (20:06):
Thank you. State's Exhibit 30.
Raymond Lale (20:06):
Yes, [inaudible 00:20:07].
State (20:06):
Sir, let me show you State's Exhibit 30, and I'm just going to ask you if you recognize that at all, sir.
Michael Logan (20:11):
Yes.
State (20:12):
All right. What is that, sir?
Michael Logan (20:13):
It's the victim that was on the scene.
State (20:16):
Do you believe that State's Exhibit 30 is accurate to what you saw? Does it jog your memory and look like what you saw when you went in there?
Michael Logan (20:26):
Yes, sir.
State (20:27):
Do you remember at all coming in and having to go down some steps or anything?
Michael Logan (20:30):
Yes, sir.
State (20:31):
Okay. Into a basement?
Michael Logan (20:32):
Yes, sir.
State (20:33):
So when you get there and you have this signal 48, unfortunately means your services aren't going to ... Well, you're still going to do your job, but you're going to approach it a little differently, I guess. So what do you do when you get there?
Michael Logan (20:48):
So when we first walk in the door, obviously we sign a log to go in. Downstairs is to the right, upstairs is to the left. Sheriff's department's there saying he's downstairs to the left, like go down the stairs, he's to the left. So me and my partner, and I believe a sheriff's deputy was either already down there or came in with us. I immediately saw the patient laying there, not moving, not responding.
State (21:21):
Okay. Tell the jury what you do then or do you administer any kind of life-saving efforts just to be absolutely sure?
Michael Logan (21:29):
I walk up to the patient and there's obviously a bunch of blood around his head and on his face. At that point, our protocols say that if someone has sustained a life-threatening injury to a vital organ, that we do not attempt CPR. He was obviously not breathing or moving and he had a good bit of blood and I guess coagulated blood around his head, from what I remember.
State (21:59):
Are you familiar with something called a MARCH device?
Michael Logan (22:03):
No.
State (22:03):
Okay. Do you ever attach a plastic device over the chest cavity to relieve pressure from stab wounds or shooting wounds?
Michael Logan (22:14):
We just call it an occlusive dressing.
State (22:16):
Okay.
Michael Logan (22:16):
Yeah.
State (22:17):
Did you do that here?
Michael Logan (22:17):
No.
State (22:18):
And why not?
Michael Logan (22:19):
I didn't see any injuries or anything to the chest. It just looked like all around his head.
State (22:24):
Okay. And did the patient appear to be beyond all-
Michael Logan (22:27):
Yes.
State (22:27):
... To you?
Michael Logan (22:28):
Yes.
State (22:29):
Based on your training, knowledge and experience?
Michael Logan (22:30):
Correct.
State (22:31):
If I may approach opposing Counsel, please, and show what's been admitted into evidence as State's Exhibit 50, 5-0.
Raymond Lale (22:40):
Yes [inaudible 00:22:41].
State (22:41):
May I approach the witness, please?
Judge (22:42):
Yes.
State (22:42):
Sir, let me show you what's been admitted already into evidence. Let me actually show it to you, sir, on the projector, because it's been admitted into evidence. It's 50. [inaudible 00:22:53]. Do you remember, sir, on the scene, just for the record, State's Exhibit 50 on the overhead projector ... I'm going to move out of the way. Do you remember seeing this, sir?
Michael Logan (23:15):
Yes, sir.
State (23:18):
Just for the record, obviously, I'm pointing at State's Exhibit 50, but the court reporter's taking everything down. So tell me what I'm pointing at here as you remember it.
Michael Logan (23:29):
The revolver.
State (23:31):
Did you remember seeing a weapon inside that room?
Michael Logan (23:33):
Yes.
State (23:33):
So obviously when you go to scenes as a paramedic, I'm assuming, do you have to frequently interact with police?
Michael Logan (23:42):
Correct. Yes.
State (23:43):
Do you frequently have to unfortunately enter into violent crime scenes?
Michael Logan (23:46):
Yes.
State (23:47):
Are you trained at all about how, if in any way, you need to preserve or maintain the integrity of a potential crime scene?
Michael Logan (23:56):
Yes. It obviously was a potential crime scene, so in my mind, I'm trying to walk as careful as I can around the body. I don't touch anything that I don't have to.
State (24:09):
Okay. Did you touch ... Did you move this firearm?
Michael Logan (24:12):
No. No.
State (24:14):
And you've talked about to the jury, and thank you, but you've talked about what you did, but what's your partner doing at this point?
Michael Logan (24:21):
I believe he was behind me and we just looked over the body together, kind of agreed on everything, and then we walked back upstairs.
State (24:33):
Do you know how long you were down in that basement, sir? If you had to just estimate, an hour or 10 minutes?
Michael Logan (24:38):
Less than 10 minutes.
State (24:40):
Okay. Did you move anything else? If you can zoom out, Mr. Berg, just anything else in that basement, did you move anything?
Michael Logan (24:50):
No, sir.
State (24:51):
Do you see this here? I'm pointing at, obviously, I think on State's Exhibit 50, sorry, what's a McDonald's bag down to the left knee of the patient? Did you move that?
Michael Logan (25:02):
No, sir.
State (25:04):
Do you remember walking in there and tripping over anything or kicking anything like a McDonald's cup?
Michael Logan (25:11):
No, sir. No, sir.
State (25:15):
Okay. Did you notice, do you remember anything about any kind of particular smell or odor at all?
Michael Logan (25:23):
Like the smell of blood, like the iron, the smell, and also alcohol, like liquor or beer.
State (25:35):
Okay. Now you've come down there and you've spent fewer than 10 minutes down there. Now what do you do, you and your partner?
Michael Logan (25:45):
The Sheriff's Department said we might have another patient upstairs, the victim's wife. You could hear her upstairs crying, so they said she might need medical attention, so we left that scene and went upstairs to the living room area where she was.
State (26:04):
Did you ever have a chance to evaluate her medically?
Michael Logan (26:07):
Yes.
State (26:07):
Did you have an opportunity to view, just look at her and view her?
Michael Logan (26:07):
Yes.
State (26:16):
Can you tell the jury, do you remember anything notable about her clothing at all?
Michael Logan (26:19):
I did notice some blood on her clothing and hands and arms. It was kind of dark in there, but fast-forward to in the ambulance, I did see a little better with the lights on.
State (26:31):
So you had opportunity to see it very well inside when it was dark or was it better in the ambulance?
Michael Logan (26:38):
Ambulance. Yes, sir.
State (26:39):
And when you say she had some blood on her, tell the jury more detail about what you saw.
Michael Logan (26:45):
Just some-
State (26:45):
... Covered with blood, like in a horror movie?
Michael Logan (26:48):
No, it was more like smeared, dried up blood. It wasn't a ton, I don't think.
State (26:53):
All right, sir. And when you got close to her ... Did you have an opportunity to get somewhat close to her?
Michael Logan (27:00):
Yes.
State (27:01):
When you got close to her, are you overwhelmed with the smell of iron at that point with blood in any way?
Raymond Lale (27:06):
Objection, leading.
Judge (27:08):
Overruled.
State (27:09):
Did you smell a lot of blood on her right next to her when you got up and close to her?
Michael Logan (27:12):
I don't recall.
State (27:13):
Okay. If you did, would that might be something that stuck in your head like when you saw the decedent?
Michael Logan (27:18):
Yes.
State (27:23):
Okay. All right. So she's upset, is that fair?
Michael Logan (27:26):
Yes.
State (27:27):
Tell the jury, just in your own words, what her demeanor was, please.
Michael Logan (27:31):
Crying, I would say inconsolable at that time. We finally got her calmed down enough to answer some questions and agree to go to the hospital with us because she was what I would describe as a panic attack.
State (27:45):
Okay. Was she able to, and I don't know if you gave her any commands or asked her any questions, was she able to follow what you were saying?
Michael Logan (27:53):
I believe so. She answered with simple answers to pretty simple questions.
State (27:59):
Do you see any children up there?
Michael Logan (28:01):
Yes.
State (28:01):
Okay. And then did you and your partner then eventually transport this Defendant to the hospital?
Michael Logan (28:08):
We did.
State (28:09):
And at that point, I'm assuming ... I shouldn't assume. At that point, is your duty really over it once you turn her over to hospital personnel?
Michael Logan (28:17):
Yes. We give the personnel a report, a verbal report, and they sign our PCR, patient care report, to take over patient care.
State (28:28):
Is anything about your duties or your responsibilities, sir, to preserve evidence, is that your responsibility?
Michael Logan (28:35):
No. I feel like if I see something, we would tell SO or Sheriff's Office, but they were with the patient as well.
State (28:48):
Let me show you what's been admitted into evidence and marked as State's Exhibit 200. May I approach opposing Counsel, please?
Judge (28:58):
You may.
State (29:00):
Let me put this back real quick, Mr. Burg, first. Let me put this back before it gets out of order. State's 50. And now if you'll show, publish ... May I publish to the jury State's Exhibit 200?
Judge (29:14):
You may.
State (29:15):
Thank you. If you'll just publish the first page upward portion of that. And then if you could zoom in a little bit please, sir. This is State's Exhibit 200. That's too far. That's too far. Zoom out a little bit. Okay. Okay, right there. That'd be great. Do you see, sir, on State's Exhibit 200, where it says Metro right here?
Michael Logan (29:44):
Yes, sir.
State (29:45):
And you've got a screen right in front of you, I hope. And do you see your name here?
Michael Logan (29:49):
Yes, sir.
State (29:50):
Is that your name and signature?
Michael Logan (29:52):
Yes, sir.
State (29:52):
And then time in, what does that say?
Michael Logan (29:56):
Looks like one o'clock.
State (29:57):
So 01:00 hours, I guess-
Michael Logan (29:59):
Yes.
State (30:00):
And you left at 1:10?
Michael Logan (30:04):
As far as I remember, yes, sir.
State (30:06):
Okay. And you see down a little bit farther, it says fire.
Michael Logan (30:10):
Yes, sir.
State (30:10):
Steve Garner?
Michael Logan (30:12):
Yes, sir.
State (30:12):
Okay. But you said they were there, fire officials were there when you arrived already?
Michael Logan (30:19):
I did see him, his truck, his apparatus, and I saw him at least on the front porch. He was there.
State (30:30):
All right, sir.
(30:46)
That's all I have. Thank You.
Judge (30:47):
Any cross examination?
Raymond Lale (31:03):
Mr. Logan, good morning.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Good morning.
Raymond Lale (31:05):
My name is Raymond Lale. I along with Mr. Steel represent Lacey Boles in this case. I just have a few questions for you.
Michael Logan (31:11):
Sure.
Raymond Lale (31:11):
Thank you. So when you went into the house finally after you were staged, how many people were downstairs when you walked down the stairs with your partner?
Michael Logan (31:32):
Like I said, there was a sheriff's deputy. I can't remember if he was already downstairs or walked with us.
Raymond Lale (31:38):
Okay.
Michael Logan (31:38):
But I don't recall anybody, like a bunch of people in the room. It was the victim and possibly the SO deputy.
Raymond Lale (31:49):
Okay. But you indicated when you walked down there, of course, you did not do any CPR because-
Michael Logan (31:57):
No, sir.
Raymond Lale (31:58):
Someone had already told you it was a code 48, I believe you indicated?
Michael Logan (32:03):
Between that and physically looking at the victim with the blood and the wound and he was not breathing, so we did not provide any lifesaving measures.
Raymond Lale (32:16):
Okay. Fair enough. Is it common for you as an EMT, you were an EMT at the time, correct?
Michael Logan (32:26):
EMT paramedic, yeah.
Raymond Lale (32:28):
Okay. To generate a report with regard to a call like this?
Michael Logan (32:34):
Yes.
Raymond Lale (32:35):
Okay. Did you generate such a report?
Michael Logan (32:36):
Yes.
Raymond Lale (32:37):
Okay. Do you have it?
Michael Logan (32:39):
Not on me, no.
Raymond Lale (32:41):
Okay. Did you ever provide that report? Were you ever asked to provide that report to the prosecution?
Michael Logan (32:47):
No. I got it from Metro, but I never was asked to provide it to anybody. I got it emailed to me just to review it, but I never was told to give it to anybody.
Raymond Lale (33:02):
Okay. So is this a report that you filled out yourself?
Michael Logan (33:05):
Yes.
Raymond Lale (33:06):
Okay. Is it just a handwritten report that you filled out?
Michael Logan (33:09):
Yeah, it's on a computer, like a laptop, we do after the call.
Raymond Lale (33:13):
Okay. So it looks like from the login sheet that you were there approximately 10 minutes. Does that seem correct?
Michael Logan (33:35):
In my mind, I feel like I was there longer, but I mean, that could be accurate. I'm not sure.
Raymond Lale (33:42):
Okay. Because as you indicated, you staged there for a while.
Michael Logan (33:46):
Yes.
Raymond Lale (33:47):
You were told it was okay to go in, you go down, and then you go upstairs to interact with Ms. Boles and-
Michael Logan (33:54):
Yes.
Raymond Lale (33:55):
Okay. And I'm correct that Ms. Boles was cooperative with you, correct, during that time?
Michael Logan (34:02):
For the most part, yeah. Like I said, she was pretty inconsolable, but cooperative.
Raymond Lale (34:08):
Okay. Would you say she was hysterical at times?
Michael Logan (34:13):
Yes. Yes.
Raymond Lale (34:15):
Okay. And were there other people with her consoling her by the time you got there?
Michael Logan (34:19):
Yes. There was a couple of sheriff deputies upstairs, I believe the battalion chief I spoke about earlier was up there, and then I'm assuming it was a family member was with her as well.
Raymond Lale (34:31):
Fair enough. So backing up a little bit, when you got the word ... Well, first of all, you get a code four that it's okay to go on scene?
Michael Logan (34:40):
Yes.
Raymond Lale (34:41):
Then you're on scene and then you get the code 48, which pretty much indicates the person is deceased?
Michael Logan (34:47):
Correct.
Raymond Lale (34:49):
You don't know who was down there with Mr. Akers before you got there to determine that he was deceased, do you?
Michael Logan (34:56):
I do not.
Raymond Lale (34:57):
And you don't know what that person did or didn't do, do you?
Michael Logan (34:59):
No, sir.
Raymond Lale (35:00):
You don't know if they touched him, you don't know if they checked for his pulse?
Michael Logan (35:00):
No, sir.
Raymond Lale (35:00):
You don't know if they touched him, you don't know if they checked for his pulse, you don't know what happened because you weren't there?
Michael Logan (35:06):
Correct.
Raymond Lale (35:08):
And there was no body camera back then in 2019 for at least the Paulding County Sheriff's Office. Did you guys have the body-worn camera back then or no?
Michael Logan (35:18):
No, sir.
Raymond Lale (35:38):
Okay. Now, you testified earlier that there was blood on her clothing?
Michael Logan (35:43):
Yes.
Raymond Lale (35:43):
Okay. And I think you said it was smeared. It wasn't dripping with blood, but there was blood, visibly, on her clothing?
Michael Logan (35:50):
Correct.
Raymond Lale (35:54):
Now, it's not your job to preserve evidence in a case, you're not law enforcement, correct?
Michael Logan (35:59):
Correct.
Raymond Lale (35:59):
Okay. Did you ever hear law enforcement come to her and ask her about her clothing?
Michael Logan (36:06):
No, sir.
Raymond Lale (36:07):
Okay. Ask about preserving her clothing?
Michael Logan (36:10):
No, sir.
Raymond Lale (36:20):
I believe you testified earlier that she was having a panic attack.
Michael Logan (36:25):
Yes, sir.
Raymond Lale (36:26):
Is that something you guys are trained to recognize, when somebody's having a panic attack?
Michael Logan (36:30):
Yes, sir.
Raymond Lale (36:30):
That's something that, in your education, you're trained, correct?
Michael Logan (36:32):
Yes, sir.
Raymond Lale (36:36):
Okay. So at some point you left the house, and did you escort her down to the ambulance?
Michael Logan (36:45):
Yeah, she walked with us to the ambulance.
Raymond Lale (36:48):
Okay. And do you recall who requested that she go to the hospital? Is that a determination you guys made or is it determination that law enforcement made?
Michael Logan (37:00):
I believe it was kind of a joint determination. The kids were there. I told her, "Let's get you out of this environment. Let's get you some help," I believe it's her mom let her take care of the kids, and she agreed.
Raymond Lale (37:14):
Okay. So you felt she needed some medical attention more than that was there at the scene?
Michael Logan (37:19):
Yes.
Raymond Lale (37:20):
At the hospital?
Michael Logan (37:21):
Correct.
Raymond Lale (37:21):
Okay. And I'm assuming she's loaded into the back of the ambulance, correct?
Michael Logan (37:29):
Yes, sir.
Raymond Lale (37:30):
Is she laid down? Is she on a gurney, let's say?
Michael Logan (37:33):
She's on a gurney, seat-belted onto a gurney.
Raymond Lale (37:36):
Okay. When did she get seat-belted onto the gurney?
Michael Logan (37:38):
As soon as we got her into the ambulance and she sat down on the gurney.
Raymond Lale (37:41):
Okay, fair enough. Now, I know it probably is not always allowed, but did y'all allow her mother to ride with her?
Michael Logan (37:47):
No, she stayed at the residence.
Raymond Lale (37:49):
Okay. So in the ambulance, now, we've got you, we've got the driver, and we've got Ms. Boles.
Michael Logan (37:54):
Yes.
Raymond Lale (37:54):
Are you back there with her or are you in the passenger seat?
Michael Logan (37:57):
I'm in the back with her.
Raymond Lale (37:58):
Okay. You're in the back with her. Anything remarkable about that ride from there to the hospital?
Michael Logan (38:06):
No. Like I said, she's answered basic questions as far as her medical history, if she took medications, just my history taking that I have to do for my report, and the only thing she said to me other than that was "Why?" She kept saying, "Why?" looking me in the eyes and saying, "Why?" And obviously, I don't have an answer.
Raymond Lale (38:29):
Okay. Well, fair enough. Appreciate you consoling her. And I'm assuming you're radioing to the hospital, "Hey, we have someone en route-"
Michael Logan (38:40):
Yes.
Raymond Lale (38:40):
"... here's what's going on"? That's just protocol, right?
Michael Logan (38:42):
Yes.
Raymond Lale (38:43):
Okay. So you arrive at the hospital, and which one is it?
Michael Logan (38:47):
Wellstar Paulding.
Raymond Lale (38:48):
Okay. And so I'm assuming you go to the emergency entrance or your special entrance that you have?
Michael Logan (38:54):
Correct.
Raymond Lale (38:54):
Okay. And does personnel from the hospital come out and open the doors and assist you with taking her out?
Michael Logan (39:03):
So we keep her on the gurney, we take her out of the ambulance and wheel her in, we have badges to get in the hospital, we talk to the charge nurse, tell her, "We're Metro so-and-so, this is our patient," and they assign us a room and we transfer her from the gurney straight onto the bed of her room.
Raymond Lale (39:24):
Okay.
Michael Logan (39:24):
So she never walked, got out and walked from the ambulance.
Raymond Lale (39:28):
Okay. All right. Was any law enforcement on the scene when you got there or no?
Michael Logan (39:33):
No.
Raymond Lale (39:34):
Okay. And so after you did that, you put her on her bed, then at that point, what do you do?
Michael Logan (39:43):
The nurse comes in and I gave him a verbal report, vital, just an overview of what happened, and he signs my patient care report, assuming patient care from me.
Raymond Lale (39:59):
Okay. And your patient care report, is that the report that you generate about this whole case or is that something you do later when you get on your computer and do a report about what happened?
Michael Logan (40:11):
So I finished the report before we left the hospital, the ambulance bay.
Raymond Lale (40:17):
Okay.
Michael Logan (40:18):
So I usually try to get them done as soon as the call is over.
Raymond Lale (40:22):
Okay. Okay. And that's your handwritten report?
Michael Logan (40:25):
Yes.
Raymond Lale (40:26):
Okay. Fair enough. One sec. Mr. Logan, thank you.
Judge Bucci (40:36):
Any redirect?
State (40:37):
Yes, sir. When you went down to the basement, did you see anything, like... I know there's a thing that you can guard when you can do mouth-to-mouth, you use a guard on somebody so you're not making lip contact and you use that?
Michael Logan (40:51):
Did we use that? Is that what you are saying?
State (40:53):
Have you seen that before?
Michael Logan (40:54):
Yeah, we use ... it's called a bag valve. We never use the mouthpiece. No.
State (41:01):
It separates the-
Michael Logan (41:02):
Correct.
State (41:03):
... first responder to the patient.
Michael Logan (41:04):
Yes.
State (41:05):
Did you see anything like that on the floor or anything?
Michael Logan (41:05):
No.
State (41:07):
Did you see any gauze pads or any kind of medical products like somebody else had been there first and tried to do what they could?
Michael Logan (41:15):
No.
State (41:15):
Did you see anything like that?
Michael Logan (41:15):
No.
State (41:17):
Okay. No medical products at all?
Michael Logan (41:19):
No, sir.
State (41:20):
Did the scene look like it had been chaotically disturbed to you when you got there, like there had been a flurry of activity there?
Michael Logan (41:27):
No, sir.
State (41:30):
Do you see that sometimes?
Michael Logan (41:31):
Yes, sir.
State (41:33):
And finally, sir, you remember the defendant saying, "Why, why, why?" in the ambulance. Is that what you remember?
Michael Logan (41:39):
Yes, sir.
State (41:40):
Okay. Do you remember her saying ever, "Why did he do it?" You don't remember?
Michael Logan (41:44):
No, sir.
State (41:45):
And do you remember her ever saying, for example, "Why have I done this?"
Michael Logan (41:47):
No, sir, I don't remember that.
State (41:48):
Just, "Why?"
Michael Logan (41:52):
Just, "Why?" Yes, sir.
State (41:54):
No further questions. May I take the exhibit down, please, Your Honor? Thank you.
Judge Bucci (42:00):
Redirect.
Raymond Lale (42:02):
Okay. I know you don't have your report here, but quite frankly, if my client had said, "Why did I do this?" that would be in your report and you'd remember that, right?
Michael Logan (42:09):
Correct.
Judge Bucci (42:14):
Anything else from this witness?
State (42:15):
Not for the State. Thank you.
Judge Bucci (42:15):
All right, can he be excused?
State (42:19):
No objection.
Judge Bucci (42:20):
All right.
(42:20)
Sir, you're free to go. Thank you very much. How's everybody doing? Good? All right. Next witness.
State (42:27):
State calls Amanda Carter, please.
Judge Bucci (43:19):
Good morning. Welcome. I'll swear you in. Raise your right hand and take an oath, please. Do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give in the matter before the Court will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Amanda Carter (43:27):
Yes, sir, I do.
Judge Bucci (43:27):
You may sit.
State (43:33):
Good morning, ma'am. If you'd please tell the jury your name?
Amanda Carter (43:35):
Amanda Carter.
State (43:37):
Common spelling, Amanda Carter?
Amanda Carter (43:39):
Yes, sir.
State (43:40):
How were you employed, please, today?
Amanda Carter (43:42):
I presently work with family on a full-time basis, providing customer service for their businesses, and I'm part-time with Haralson.
State (43:59):
All right. Let me break that down into two different little parts. You said, "Family." First I thought you were talking about a name of a company?
Amanda Carter (44:00):
No, sir, family businesses.
State (44:00):
Okay. So you work with family businesses?
Amanda Carter (44:03):
Yes.
State (44:04):
What-
Amanda Carter (44:04):
My family's businesses.
State (44:06):
What type of business are they in?
Amanda Carter (44:08):
We have a vending business, landscape business, and I provide customer service for those.
State (44:15):
Okay. Where are you based out of?
Amanda Carter (44:15):
Out of Paulding.
State (44:16):
All right. And then you said that part-time you work for Haralson. I'm assuming you mean Haralson County?
Amanda Carter (44:22):
Yes, sir.
State (44:23):
Can you tell the jury, please, what you do for Haralson County?
Amanda Carter (44:26):
I'm part-time, so anything the sheriff or his command staff deem necessary, and I respond as called.
State (44:33):
What is your area of expertise that allows you to work with Haralson County?
Amanda Carter (44:39):
So I fall under the investigations division.
State (44:41):
Criminal investigation?
Amanda Carter (44:42):
Yes, sir.
State (44:43):
All right. And let me take you back. Are you a post-certified law enforcement officer?
Amanda Carter (44:47):
Yes, sir, I am.
State (44:48):
You are? Can you tell the jury if you were working in law enforcement at all in December of 2019?
Amanda Carter (44:54):
Yes, sir, I was.
State (44:55):
Can you tell the jury, please, what agency you were working with at that time?
Amanda Carter (44:59):
At that time, I was with Paulding County Sheriff's Office.
State (45:01):
Were you full-time?
Amanda Carter (45:02):
Yes, sir. I think I had gone to part-time at that point. I'm sorry.
State (45:08):
Were you ever full-time with the sheriff's office?
Amanda Carter (45:13):
Yes, sir.
State (45:13):
When did you start with the Paulding County Sheriff's Office?
Amanda Carter (45:14):
I believe it was in 2008.
State (45:17):
So you'd had over a decade of time with that agency by the time December, holiday time, 2019?
Amanda Carter (45:23):
Yes, sir.
State (45:26):
Can you tell the jury what your duties were when you first started?
Amanda Carter (45:30):
When I first started, I was the evidence custodian. I received and maintained any evidence turned into the sheriff's office.
State (45:38):
Okay. So who would bring you that evidence for you to maintain and log it?
Amanda Carter (45:43):
Any deputies or detectives, any evidence they obtained on scene, they would return it to the sheriff's office and submit it to be maintained in the evidence room.
State (45:52):
Was it common for some of that evidence to go down to Decatur to a crime lab?
Amanda Carter (45:56):
Yes, sir.
State (45:57):
Okay. And then did you ever maintain evidence or receive evidence back from the crime lab?
Amanda Carter (46:00):
Yes, sir, on a regular basis.
State (46:03):
But tell the jury, please, and I don't know either, this is the Paulding County Sheriff's Office, did you work in their own evidence storage location?
Amanda Carter (46:11):
Yes, sir. Their evidence location is within the sheriff's office.
State (46:15):
All right. In 2019, that's, I guess, the old location, or was that still over here behind the courthouse?
Amanda Carter (46:22):
I don't remember what year they moved. I'm sorry.
State (46:26):
Okay. So you said it was just within the sheriff's office?
Amanda Carter (46:29):
Yes, sir.
State (46:29):
What does the storage area look like? Where do you keep all the stuff?
Amanda Carter (46:32):
It's a secure room that only the evidence custodians have access to, and it's only unlocked when they're present.
State (46:41):
When the custodians are present?
Amanda Carter (46:42):
Yes.
State (46:42):
Okay.
Amanda Carter (46:43):
No one can access it without the evidence custodian, but they're not given access to the entire room. They can come into the entry point to speak to the evidence custodian and to turn over or pick up any evidence, but they have no access to the evidence storage.
State (47:00):
The deputies and the detectives?
Amanda Carter (47:01):
Correct.
State (47:01):
So let's just say a deputy comes in, a detective deputy comes in and he has this writing pen, he wants to put it into evidence, he or she would come in the initial part of the evidence room and meet with you?
Amanda Carter (47:19):
There are lockers that they can be submitted in. Depending on the day, the time, the circumstances, they would either put it into the locker and log it into a book, or they may have the ability to hand it over to the evidence custodian at that point.
State (47:35):
And would the custodian then log it in?
Amanda Carter (47:38):
So there's a property and evidence record that any changes in the chain of custody would be maintained on. So the evidence custodian would sign the property sheet showing that they had received it from the deputy, and at that point they would enter it into the system that keeps an inventory of everything in the evidence room.
State (47:57):
And how is that inventory kept? If I put this pen into evidence, does it receive any kind of number?
Amanda Carter (48:03):
It does.
State (48:03):
It does?
Amanda Carter (48:06):
It does.
State (48:06):
Does it receive a specific storage place where it's going to be in there?
Amanda Carter (48:09):
Yes, sir, it does.
State (48:11):
And please, you told me that that area is restricted. Any deputy or detective can go in there, did you say, as long as there's a custodian?
Amanda Carter (48:19):
They don't have access to the entire room. They can access a point of the room where the evidence custodian is, but they have no ability to reach or access evidence that is in storage.
State (48:32):
Okay. Has it been your experience that sometimes evidence can be affected by temperature, room conditions, air conditions?
Amanda Carter (48:39):
Yes, sir.
State (48:40):
Is that true? Was this a room that was temperature-controlled, humidity-controlled to preserve evidence?
Amanda Carter (48:45):
Yes, sir.
State (48:51):
So you started out as evidence custodian or evidence technician receiving evidence, cataloging evidence, storing evidence. Did your role ever change with the Paulding County Sheriff's Office?
Amanda Carter (49:02):
Yes, sir. I believe it was 2016, if I'm not mistaken, that I had transferred over to the technical services unit for crime scene.
State (49:14):
Okay. And tell the jury, please, what that means.
Amanda Carter (49:17):
That's for crime scene processing. Your responsibility is to provide support services for deputies or detectives responding to scenes. You respond as they call you to come out and assist in photographing, collecting evidence, anything that the lead detective deems appropriate at that point.
State (49:36):
Tell the jury, please, any kind of training you received to be able to do that.
Amanda Carter (49:42):
I believe there's seven classes that you have to take according to post. There's multiple fingerprint classes, crime scene class, evidence preservation, blood stain. That's all I remember off the top of my head.
State (49:59):
Does that require post certification?
Amanda Carter (50:01):
It does. Yes, sir.
State (50:03):
A crime scene analyst?
Amanda Carter (50:05):
Yes, sir.
State (50:06):
Okay. So had you completed your certification in crime scene processing or analysis by December of 2019?
Amanda Carter (50:13):
Yes, sir.
State (50:13):
Do you still hold that certification?
Amanda Carter (50:13):
Yes, sir.
State (50:18):
Is that an area, please, that you have to continue to train on and learn about, continuing education?
Amanda Carter (50:23):
The post requires a minimum every year, but you should always continue your crime scene ... because technology changes.
State (50:34):
With your time from 2016 until even now with Haralson County, have you continued to update your knowledge and educate yourself-
Amanda Carter (50:42):
Yes, sir.
State (50:42):
... annually with the post hours on this area of the law?
Amanda Carter (50:45):
Yes, sir.
State (50:48):
And did you say that's pretty much the same thing you do now with Haralson crime scene processing?
Amanda Carter (50:54):
If they need assistance, I respond to anything that they deem necessary. So they do have a full-time crime scene technician. They actually have an assistant for the crime scene technician as well, so it would only be in extraordinary circumstances that they would call me for that.
State (51:10):
But are you still on their list or their speed dial or whatever?
Amanda Carter (51:15):
Yes, sir.
State (51:15):
Okay. When's the last time you went over there?
Amanda Carter (51:18):
I was over there a few weeks ago and spoke with the sheriff yesterday.
State (51:23):
Okay. All right. So did you have an opportunity to be called out to an area of Braemill Court in Paulding County, Georgia, on or about December 22nd, 2019?
Amanda Carter (51:35):
Yes, sir.
State (51:36):
Specifically 83 Braemill Court, do you remember going out there?
Amanda Carter (51:39):
Yes, sir.
State (51:40):
Let me show you what's something that's been admitted into evidence as State's Exhibit 4 and see if you just recognize this. May I approach opposing counsel, please?
Judge Bucci (51:49):
You may.
State (51:54):
Showing opposing counsel State's Exhibit 4. And may I approach the witness?
Judge Bucci (51:55):
You may.
State (51:56):
Ma'am, let me show you State's Exhibit 4. Do you remember anything about that?
Amanda Carter (52:01):
This is the exterior of the residence that I responded to.
State (52:06):
All right. Is that where you were called out, then, to help out?
Amanda Carter (52:07):
Yes, sir.
State (52:08):
How is it that you would be called out? Who calls you and when would they call you, typically?
Amanda Carter (52:15):
Typically, the lead detective would call. So you have an on-call detective if it happens after hours. So patrol would respond. If they see the need for a detective, then they would notify CID that a detective is requested on scene. At that point, the detective would typically notify me if he felt there was a need. He or she, sorry.
State (52:40):
Criminal Investigations Division.
Amanda Carter (52:41):
Yes, sir.
State (52:45):
Is that right? In your knowledge or training and your experience, is it common for patrol officers, first responder type officers, to go processing stuff at the scene?
Amanda Carter (52:52):
Not typically. No, sir.
State (52:54):
Is it common for those officers, based on your own observation, your experience, for those officers to have moved and manipulated evidentiary items by the time you get there?
Amanda Carter (53:02):
No, sir.
State (53:05):
Sometimes it might be necessary, I guess.
Amanda Carter (53:06):
At times it might be necessary, but they are given training that advise them not to.
State (53:11):
Preservation of a crime scene, what does that mean to you, please?
Amanda Carter (53:15):
That means so that you don't move anything, you don't touch anything, you don't alter anything. The scene is exactly as it was as when responders initially arrived. You don't deposit any DNA, you don't remove any DNA from the scene. You don't alter any evidence so that you can do a thorough investigation of what you see when you arrive.
State (53:37):
Is that how you're trained?
Amanda Carter (53:38):
Yes, sir.
State (53:39):
Are you trained in preserving against contamination of a crime scene?
Amanda Carter (53:43):
Yes, sir.
State (53:43):
Can you tell the jury what that means?
Amanda Carter (53:48):
It means when you go into a crime scene, you can leave evidence as easily as you can remove evidence. So you have to err on the side of caution. You should always wear gloves. You should never touch anything or alter anything until the photographs are taken and the investigation has begun. Typically, in processing, we place crime scene placards where we see items of evidentiary value and take additional photographs. You want to preserve all of that so you can recreate the scene if necessary.
State (54:21):
Are you familiar with a crime scene log?
Amanda Carter (54:23):
Yes, sir.
State (54:24):
What is that?
Amanda Carter (54:26):
When a incident has occurred and they feel like the scene needs to be secured, usually the initial responding deputies will begin a log so they can keep track of anyone that enters or exits the scene.
State (54:40):
Let me show you again State's Exhibit 200, and I want to blow it up here. I'm showing you specifically page two of State's Exhibit 200, if you'll look at that. That's already in evidence. You recognize this type of a sheet?
Amanda Carter (54:59):
Yes, sir.
State (54:59):
And do you see down here where it says... What does that say? Where I'm pointing to the left on page two of State's 200.
Amanda Carter (55:07):
I can't see where you're pointing. I'm sorry.
State (55:09):
Yeah, I'm sorry. It's kind of a hard thing to figure out. I'm sorry. So do not block anybody. Can you see it now?
Amanda Carter (55:16):
That is my name.
State (55:18):
Okay. Did you sign and check in with the crime scene log?
Amanda Carter (55:20):
Yes, sir.
State (55:21):
Now time in, do you see that? That's blank. Do you know why?
Amanda Carter (55:24):
No, sir, I do not.
State (55:25):
Okay. Time out, can you read that?
Amanda Carter (55:29):
Appears to be 4:37. No, 4:33, I believe.
State (55:35):
Who called you to the crime scene, please? Do you know who requested you to come out?
Amanda Carter (55:42):
I don't remember. I could speculate on who I believe it was and who it would typically be, but honestly, I don't recall, sir.
State (55:50):
That's fine. Do you come out with a truck, or what kind of equipment do you take there?
Amanda Carter (55:57):
So you're provided with a crime scene van that has any equipment you may need for the scene.
State (56:03):
Did you come out with that?
Amanda Carter (56:04):
Yes, sir, I did.
State (56:04):
Does anybody help you?
Amanda Carter (56:08):
The lead detective guides you through the scene and makes their request on evidence processing, evidence collection. A lot of times, most of the time they will assist if you ask them to. Other than that, it's usually the two of you that process the scene.
State (56:28):
Yeah, two of you. And then why I'm asking is I heard you saying Haralson don't have an assistant crime scene processor or tech. Do you have somebody helping?
Amanda Carter (56:36):
Detective Ogden was there and assisted. I don't recall who else was on scene. I know the coroner was there at one point. She assisted with a portion. Those are the only names I can tell you off the top of my head.
State (56:51):
And thank you for that, but more what I'm getting to is did you have an assistant who-
Amanda Carter (56:57):
No, sir.
State (56:57):
Okay.
Amanda Carter (56:57):
No, sir, I did not.
State (56:57):
[inaudible 00:56:58]
Amanda Carter (56:57):
No, sir.
State (56:58):
Okay. That's what I was trying to figure out. Thank you. So you get there and you sign in the crime scene log, and what do you do first, please?
Amanda Carter (57:05):
At that point, I had requested the consent to search or the search warrant, and I had been told that we did not have that at that point, and Detective Ogden had left to obtain that, so I held outside the scene until he obtained the consent to search.
State (57:24):
Where did you stay until that was...
Amanda Carter (57:26):
I believe I stayed at my vehicle.
State (57:29):
Near the home, I guess?
Amanda Carter (57:30):
Yes. Yes. Inside of the home, in front of the home.
State (57:34):
At some point, did you gain legal entry into their home?
Amanda Carter (57:36):
Yes, sir.
State (57:38):
Okay. What's your first order of business when you approach a scene and start processing?
Amanda Carter (57:43):
I'm usually walked through the scene and provided all the investigative details that they've obtained to that point, so that's exactly what we did when we walked in. We evaluated everything in the entryway, it was a split foyer, and we proceeded downstairs to where the victim was. He was located in the floor in a room on the left-hand side.
State (58:10):
And then what's your first order of business after you've visually seen the scene as you encounter it? What do you do then to start? What's your first thing you start?
Amanda Carter (58:22):
The first thing you do is take photographs.
State (58:24):
Okay. All right. May I approach opposing counsel, please, Your Honor, to show what's been marked for identification purposes only as State's Exhibit 169? May I approach the witness, please?
Judge Bucci (58:55):
You may.
State (58:56):
Ma'am, let me show you what's been marked for identification purposes only as State's Exhibit 169, and I'll ask you to look at that just briefly. When you've had a chance to look at it, let me know.
Amanda Carter (59:02):
Yes, sir.
State (59:03):
Do you recognize what's depicted in that photograph?
Amanda Carter (59:05):
Yes, sir, I do.
State (59:06):
Can you tell, generally, just generally, briefly, what is depicted there?
Amanda Carter (59:12):
This is a picture of the victim that was deceased in the floor of the room that they had advised me he was located. I don't know how descriptive you want me to be.
State (59:26):
That's-
Amanda Carter (59:26):
Okay.
State (59:28):
That's on you.
Amanda Carter (59:28):
Okay.
State (59:28):
How do you recognize that?
Amanda Carter (59:31):
I recognize it because it was a picture that I had taken at the scene.
State (59:36):
Okay. And just briefly right now, does that fairly and accurately depict the scene as you encountered it on September 2nd-
Amanda Carter (59:43):
Yes, sir, it does.
State (59:45):
... 2019? Do you think there's been any alterations, deletions, or changes to State's Exhibit 169 to make it not representative of what you saw in person that evening?
Amanda Carter (59:54):
No, sir.
State (59:55):
Respectfully move the Court to admit into evidence what's been previously marked for identification purposes only as State's Exhibit 169.
Amanda Carter (01:00:02):
No opposition, Your Honor.
Judge Bucci (01:00:03):
That is admitted.
State (01:00:05):
Thank you. So now you can go and elaborate just a little bit. Let me publish it to the jury, hopefully.
(01:00:11)
May I publish it, Your Honor?
Judge Bucci (01:00:12):
You may.
State (01:00:12):
Let me publish it, ma'am, and then maybe you can see it, hopefully, on your monitor there. Is this an accurate description or photograph, a representation photographically of what you encountered that evening at the scene, ma'am?
Amanda Carter (01:00:29):
Yes, sir, it is.
State (01:00:34):
When you walk into some crime scenes, have you ever encountered a crime scene that you've walked in and it looks like the room has just been really destroyed, there's EMT evidence left behind, lifesaving evidence left behind, it's just a whirlwind of chaos and clutter? Have you ever encountered that?
Amanda Carter (01:00:53):
Yes, sir.
State (01:00:54):
Did this appear to be that type of crime scene or incident scene to you?
Amanda Carter (01:00:58):
No, sir.
State (01:01:00):
Did you see any lifesaving, resuscitative equipment left behind from EMTs or paramedics?
Amanda Carter (01:01:05):
No, sir.
State (01:01:07):
Did it look like things had been randomly thrown about or scattered by the time you arrived?
Amanda Carter (01:01:13):
No, sir.
State (01:01:16):
That type of crime scene where things are thrown about, scattered, disturbed before you got there, would that make it more difficult for you to process?
Amanda Carter (01:01:23):
Yes, sir.
State (01:01:24):
Does that present its own evidentiary challenges?
Amanda Carter (01:01:26):
Yes, sir.
State (01:01:27):
Preservation challenges? Yes?
Amanda Carter (01:01:29):
Yes, sir.
State (01:01:31):
Did you see anything like that here?
Amanda Carter (01:01:32):
No, sir.
State (01:01:34):
All right. So you're photographing the scene, that's your first order of business. Let me show you what I'll mark for identification purposes only now, please, as State's Exhibit 170.
(01:01:52)
May I approach opposing counsel, please, and show what's been marked for identification purposes only as 170, 1, 7, 0. If I may approach the witness, please...
(01:02:08)
Ma'am, let me show you what's been marked for identification purposes only as 170. Do you recognize that?
Amanda Carter (01:02:11):
Yes, sir.
State (01:02:12):
Just briefly, as briefly as you can, what is that?
Amanda Carter (01:02:16):
This is a hat and set of keys that were in close proximity to the victim in the floor.
State (01:02:22):
How do you recognize that photograph?
Amanda Carter (01:02:24):
Because it was a picture that I had taken.
State (01:02:27):
Does it fairly and accurately represent the scene as you encountered it on that day?
Amanda Carter (01:02:31):
Yes, sir.
State (01:02:32):
Any changes, material alterations, deletions that make it somehow different than the way you encountered the scene?
Amanda Carter (01:02:39):
No, sir.
State (01:02:42):
Respectfully move the Court to admit into evidence what's been previously marked for identification purposes only as State's Exhibit 170.
Raymond Lale (01:02:45):
Honorable Judge Bucci, no objection at all.
Judge Bucci (01:02:45):
All right.
State (01:03:06):
I'll get to that, but let me show you, ma'am, what's been marked for identification purposes only as State's Exhibits 170 and 171. May I approach opposing counsel, please?
Judge Bucci (01:03:17):
You may.
State (01:03:28):
170, 171. If I may approach the witness... Ma'am, let me show you now what's been marked individually as 170 and 171. I'll show you at the same time. Just take a look at both of them. Do you recognize those photographs?
Amanda Carter (01:03:43):
Yes, sir.
State (01:03:44):
What are those depicting, briefly, generally?
Amanda Carter (01:03:47):
They appear to be the same hat and set of keys with a closeup photograph.
State (01:03:53):
How do you recognize 170 and 171?
Amanda Carter (01:03:56):
They are photographs that I took.
State (01:03:58):
Do they accurately and fairly depict the scene that you encountered without any deletions, material misrepresentations or changes?
Amanda Carter (01:04:04):
Yes, sir.
State (01:04:05):
Respectfully move the Court to admit into evidence what's been marked previously for identification purposes only as State's Exhibit 170 and 171.
Amanda Carter (01:04:13):
Same position, no opposition, Your Honor.
Judge Bucci (01:04:15):
Admitted.
State (01:04:16):
May I publish, please?
Judge Bucci (01:04:17):
Yes.
State (01:04:17):
Thank you. Let me publish these, all three of them to you, Ms. Carter. I'll just go in order. Let me show you 160. So I'm going to mark this one 170A. So previously 170, I'll just put 170A.
Amanda Carter (01:04:57):
Okay.
State (01:05:00):
Okay? It'll be 170, 170A, and 171. Let me show you what's been admitted now into evidence as 170, please. Do you remember encountering this at the scene, seeing this?
Amanda Carter (01:05:21):
Yes, sir.
State (01:05:38):
Specifically, you see... Sorry, I may move to a better spot. May I approach the witness?
Judge Bucci (01:05:45):
You may.
State (01:05:46):
Just make sure you can see it on there, right?
Amanda Carter (01:05:46):
Yes, sir, I can.
State (01:05:50):
Do you see what this is here to the decedent's left, off of the left shoulder?
Amanda Carter (01:05:57):
A set of keys.
State (01:05:59):
And how far did you note that to be from the decedent's body there, laterally?
Amanda Carter (01:06:05):
I don't recall the exact distance, but it was in close proximity to the victim.
State (01:06:10):
What's this here on State 27?
Amanda Carter (01:06:12):
A hat.
State (01:06:19):
Were they fairly close to the decedent?
Amanda Carter (01:06:23):
Yes, sir, they were.
State (01:06:23):
The keys fairly close to the decedent?
Amanda Carter (01:06:24):
Yes, sir.
State (01:06:25):
Did you remove those keys from any pocket or container before you found them right there next to the guy on the floor?
Amanda Carter (01:06:31):
No, sir.
State (01:06:35):
Based on your knowledge of the investigation or the crime scene processing, do you know anybody that could've removed those keys from a pocket or a hoodie or anything else?
Amanda Carter (01:06:43):
No, sir.
State (01:06:51):
I'm going to show you now, please, if I may publish, now, this is kind of a little bit of a closeup, 171, a closeup of those keys real quickly, so we can see a little bit closer. Would you agree now this seems to be the decedent's left shoulder?
Amanda Carter (01:07:16):
Yes, sir, it is.
State (01:07:16):
And then here are some keys, multiple keys. Would you agree with that?
Amanda Carter (01:07:19):
Yes, sir.
State (01:07:21):
What's this appear to be here? I'm sorry, I know you can't see.
Amanda Carter (01:07:25):
That's okay.
State (01:07:27):
At the very bottom in the [inaudible 01:07:29]-
Amanda Carter (01:07:28):
Spots of blood.
State (01:07:28):
... what does that look like?
Amanda Carter (01:07:30):
Spots that appear to be blood.
State (01:07:32):
All right. And then on 170A, as in alpha, want to just orient the jury now to... It's upside down a little bit. Yeah.
(01:07:45)
So go a little bit higher, Mr. Burke. Yeah.
(01:07:49)
So now I want to orient this. Let me turn it this way, try to match your vantage point from where you took it. It looks like maybe this way. Yeah. So now does this accurately depict the distance, those keys, from the decedent's left shoulder?
Amanda Carter (01:08:09):
Yes, sir, it does.
State (01:08:12):
And is this... What is it? It looks like a bed. I can't tell what that is. Can you?
Amanda Carter (01:08:18):
From that photograph, no, sir, I can't.
State (01:08:20):
It's got some glare on it. I'm sorry, I oriented it the wrong way. Let me show it this way. So can you see now what that might be? Some glare on it, but this looks like... Is that a leg of some furniture?
Amanda Carter (01:08:37):
It appears to be, but I can't say with certainty from that photograph.
State (01:08:42):
All right. If you go up a little, Mr. Burke... What is this?
Amanda Carter (01:08:53):
That is a firearm.
State (01:08:54):
A firearm? Is that the location you noticed it when you arrived on scene?
Amanda Carter (01:08:58):
Yes, sir, it is.
State (01:09:00):
Had you moved it at all prior to the taking of this photograph?
Amanda Carter (01:09:01):
No, sir.
State (01:09:03):
Had you been informed by anybody, law enforcement, EMT, paramedic, anything that it had been moved prior to you arriving at the process at this location?
Amanda Carter (01:09:10):
I had been advised that the complainant had been in the room and had touched the victim, but I had not been advised that the firearm had been moved.
State (01:09:25):
Thank you.
State (01:10:00):
If I can please show opposing counsel what I'll mark for identification purposes only as State's Exhibit 172. Ma'am, may I please approach the witness, Your Honor, and show what's been marked for identification purposes only as State's 172. If you can briefly just look at that and tell the jury what that is.
Amanda Carter (01:10:40):
This is a closeup of the firearm that you previously showed.
State (01:10:46):
Did you take that photograph?
Amanda Carter (01:10:47):
Yes, sir.
State (01:10:48):
Do you think there's been any changes or misrepresentations, deletions other than possibly being another copy? Were there any changes that make that not accurate?
Amanda Carter (01:10:57):
No, sir.
State (01:10:57):
Is that a fair and accurate depiction of what you saw that evening?
Amanda Carter (01:11:00):
Yes, sir.
State (01:11:02):
Respectfully move the court to admit into evidence what's been previously marked for identification purposes only as State's Exhibit 172.
Speaker 2 (01:11:08):
No opposition, Your Honor.
Speaker 3 (01:11:10):
Admitted.
State (01:11:11):
May I publish, please?
Speaker 3 (01:11:11):
Yes.
State (01:11:12):
Thank you.
(01:11:12)
So let me ask you some questions about State's 172. You mentioned the firearm. What is this, this little placard with a numeral one on it?
Amanda Carter (01:11:35):
That is a crime scene marker to identify the first piece of evidence.
State (01:11:39):
Okay. Who put that there?
Amanda Carter (01:11:42):
I would've put that there.
State (01:11:43):
You did?
Amanda Carter (01:11:44):
Yes, sir.
State (01:11:45):
What's the purpose of it?
Amanda Carter (01:11:48):
So that it identifies the piece of evidence being collected and you can refer to it later in your report. It's additional documentation and layout of a crime scene.
State (01:12:07):
Thank you. May I approach the witness please?
Speaker 3 (01:12:28):
Yes.
State (01:12:29):
Let me provide you with some gloves, please, in case you might need those. I feel like OJ. May I approach the opposing counsel with what I'll mark as State's Exhibit 173, please?
Speaker 3 (01:13:17):
You may.
State (01:13:31):
Showing opposing counsel for the record what's been marked for identification purposes only State Exhibit 173. If I may approach you, ma'am, and show what's been previously marked for identification purposes only as State's Exhibit 173. Do you recognize that?
Amanda Carter (01:13:44):
Yes, sir.
State (01:13:47):
What is that, please?
Amanda Carter (01:13:48):
It is a sealed firearm box.
State (01:13:54):
How do you recognize it?
Amanda Carter (01:13:56):
I see my handwriting on the front and a description of the firearm.
State (01:14:04):
Who collected the firearm?
Amanda Carter (01:14:05):
I did.
State (01:14:05):
Who wrote your initials on there or your name on there?
Amanda Carter (01:14:09):
I did.
State (01:14:09):
Does the box, the outside box seem to fairly and accurately depict the firearm box that you preserved on the night of 12/22/19?
Amanda Carter (01:14:20):
With additional labels and evidence tape from GBI, yes sir, it does.
State (01:14:26):
Why is it that... Well, I'll ask you when it gets into evidence, but do you think there's been any changes or alterations to the box that make it different somehow than what you remember being just a vessel to contain the firearm?
Amanda Carter (01:14:38):
Other than what I just stated, no, sir.
State (01:14:41):
Respectfully move the court to admit into evidence what's been marked previously for identification purposes only as State's Exhibit 173.
Speaker 3 (01:14:48):
Any objection?
Speaker 2 (01:14:50):
Your Honor, no.
Speaker 3 (01:14:50):
Okay, it's admitted.
State (01:14:52):
If you'll take the scissors please, ma'am, open State's Exhibit 173.
Amanda Carter (01:14:56):
Thank you.
State (01:14:56):
[inaudible 01:15:12].
Amanda Carter (01:14:56):
I'm sorry.
State (01:14:56):
That's all right.
Amanda Carter (01:15:16):
This is not easy to do with scissors.
State (01:15:26):
Okay. Before we open it, I want to... May I publish to the jury just the box, Your Honor?
Speaker 3 (01:15:31):
Go ahead.
State (01:15:32):
So this is covered, looks like some kind of tape, tape, stickers, markings. What would be the reason for this tape on here?
Amanda Carter (01:15:42):
To whoever seals the box would put tape on it as well as their initials showing the box had been sealed. There may also be biohazard tape on it if there's any blood that was identified prior to it being placed in the box.
State (01:16:01):
So there's different... Looks like there's different colored tapes on here. Do you see that?
Amanda Carter (01:16:07):
Yes, sir.
State (01:16:08):
Is it possible that different agencies reviewed the firearm after you boxed it?
Amanda Carter (01:16:13):
Different agencies or different departments, yes, sir.
State (01:16:16):
All right. And where was your name on it?
Amanda Carter (01:16:18):
My name is listed right there in the details.
State (01:16:27):
Okay. A. Carter, is that you?
Amanda Carter (01:16:27):
Yes, sir.
State (01:16:28):
Why would you just put your name on here and with that sticker like that?
Amanda Carter (01:16:31):
I put it with also the case number and the property and evidence record that corresponds to the evidence that is on the property sheet, the evidence contained in the box.
State (01:16:43):
All right. And let me see if you recognize this. I'm sorry. What is this? I know it's hard for you to see over, but do you see a number here?
Amanda Carter (01:17:00):
That is a sticker that is put on by GBI. If they receive an item for testing, they also assign it a number so that they can keep track of it.
State (01:17:12):
Okay. So this barcode here, this barcode here, did you put that on there?
Amanda Carter (01:17:22):
No, sir.
State (01:17:23):
Okay. Is that something some other agency might do?
Amanda Carter (01:17:25):
GBI.
State (01:17:25):
GBI. Now there's also some information on the lower right side of State's Exhibit 173. If you could talk to the jury about what this means, please.
Amanda Carter (01:17:40):
That is the details of the firearm make, model, serial number, and caliber of the firearm that is enclosed in the box.
State (01:17:47):
Is that something that you put on this box?
Amanda Carter (01:17:49):
Yes, sir.
State (01:17:50):
How did you get that information right here?
Amanda Carter (01:17:53):
By inspecting the firearm.
State (01:17:58):
So the high standard is the maker and the model is Sentinel?
Amanda Carter (01:18:02):
Yes, sir.
State (01:18:05):
Is that right? And is that .22 caliber?
Amanda Carter (01:18:05):
Yes, sir.
State (01:18:08):
And is that the serial number of the actual weapon itself?
Amanda Carter (01:18:11):
Yes, sir. It is.
State (01:18:12):
Are weapons or pistols sold in the United States, to your knowledge, required to have serial numbers?
Amanda Carter (01:18:19):
Yes, sir.
State (01:18:21):
If you'll open State's Exhibit 173, please, and publish to the jury. Tell what's in there.
Amanda Carter (01:18:32):
This is a revolver. It does have a lock on it.
State (01:18:40):
May I approach the jury box, please?
Speaker 3 (01:18:43):
You may.
State (01:18:47):
Is this the revolver that you collected to preserve on 12/22/2019?
Amanda Carter (01:18:55):
It appears to be. Yes, sir.
State (01:18:56):
Does it appear to be in the similar fashion that you saw it in that evening?
Amanda Carter (01:19:01):
Similar, yes.
State (01:19:03):
Okay. Did you put a lock on it?
Amanda Carter (01:19:03):
No, sir. I did not.
State (01:19:03):
So you wouldn't have put a lock on it, but someone along the way put a lock on it?
Amanda Carter (01:19:10):
Yes, sir.
State (01:19:12):
Okay. Did you make any changes or alterations to the weapon itself prior to preserving it?
Amanda Carter (01:19:16):
Only to remove the ammunition.
State (01:19:19):
Okay. It's a revolver, is that right?
Amanda Carter (01:19:21):
Yes, sir.
State (01:19:31):
Do you see... I believe this is what's called a checkered grip. Do you agree with that, as checkered pattern on the grip itself?
Amanda Carter (01:19:53):
It appears to be.
State (01:19:54):
Do you see some, what might be biological evidence on the grip?
Amanda Carter (01:20:03):
It has darkened quite a bit, but yes, sir, it does appear to be that there is something in that area.
State (01:20:09):
And you say it's darkened quite a bit. That's fine, Mr. [inaudible 01:20:13]. Thank you. That's a good point. So when you see blood evidence and you preserve blood evidence, is it possible that blood evidence may look different than when you preserve it years later?
Amanda Carter (01:20:21):
Yes, sir.
State (01:20:23):
Blood evidence, is it fair to say, changes over time?
Amanda Carter (01:20:25):
It does.
State (01:20:27):
Can blood evidence be affected by handling the weapon?
Amanda Carter (01:20:31):
Yes, sir.
State (01:20:31):
Examining it, for example?
Amanda Carter (01:20:33):
Yes, sir.
State (01:20:33):
Can blood evidence be affected by changes in temperature, humidity, things like that?
Amanda Carter (01:20:40):
Yes, sir.
State (01:20:47):
Let me show you what I'll mark for identification purposes only as State's Exhibit 174. Showing the opposing counsel, please. I'll mark for identification purposes only State's Exhibit 174. Approach the witness, please. Ms. Carter, let me show you what's been marked for identification.
Amanda Carter (01:21:15):
Can I take this off?
State (01:21:15):
Well, you might still need them. I'm sorry. I know that's probably sweaty. I'll hold it.
Amanda Carter (01:21:19):
Okay.
State (01:21:19):
Do you see State's Exhibit 174?
Amanda Carter (01:21:23):
Yes, sir.
State (01:21:25):
Do you recognize that?
Amanda Carter (01:21:26):
Yes, sir.
State (01:21:26):
What is that?
Amanda Carter (01:21:27):
That is a picture of the firearm with the cylinder open and a photograph of the ammunition.
State (01:21:35):
Okay. You can take them off. I see you. I should have taken mine off too. Does this appear to be the same or similar condition of that as a photograph in the same or similar condition of the item you collected on that evening?
Amanda Carter (01:21:51):
Yes,
State (01:21:51):
Sir. Who took this photo?
Amanda Carter (01:21:55):
I don't recall if I took it or requested the detective that would've been on scene with me to take it.
State (01:22:02):
You can't hold it and take it at the same time?
Amanda Carter (01:22:05):
Not typically, not properly.
State (01:22:08):
Do you think this fairly and accurately depicts the weapon as you saw it and collected it on that evening?
Amanda Carter (01:22:12):
Yes, sir.
State (01:22:12):
Do you think there's been any changes or alterations made to State's Exhibit 174 to make it not accurate?
Amanda Carter (01:22:17):
No, sir.
State (01:22:18):
Respectfully move the court to admit into evidence what's been marked for identification purposes only State's Exhibit 174.
Speaker 2 (01:22:25):
No opposition, Your Honor.
Speaker 3 (01:22:26):
That's admitted.
State (01:22:27):
Permission to publish?
Speaker 3 (01:22:28):
Yes, sir.
State (01:22:29):
Let me show you now the jury numbers as well, State's Exhibit 174. Is this more representative of the weapon as you saw it that evening?
Amanda Carter (01:22:44):
Yes, sir. It is.
State (01:22:46):
You see multiple rounds inside of the cylinder right here?
Amanda Carter (01:22:55):
Yes, sir.
State (01:22:56):
And do you see some biological evidence, blood evidence [inaudible 01:23:01] here?
Amanda Carter (01:23:01):
Yes, sir.
State (01:23:06):
So would you agree with me that it appears the cylinder is full of rounds at this point? Obviously not live rounds because one had been spent, but were the rest of these live rounds?
Amanda Carter (01:23:17):
Yes, sir.
State (01:23:20):
Would it be your process to then remove the live rounds from the cylinder at some point?
Amanda Carter (01:23:25):
Yes, sir.
State (01:23:36):
Assuming you wouldn't place the weapon in that box to be preserved with live ammunition inside?
Amanda Carter (01:23:43):
No, sir.
State (01:23:45):
Okay. So did you in fact then remove the live ammunition and preserve it for future examination?
Amanda Carter (01:23:50):
I'm sorry, say that again? I didn't hear the first part. Did you say did I remove it?
State (01:23:54):
Yeah. Did you remove the live rounds and spent round even from the cylinder and preserve that from further-
Amanda Carter (01:24:00):
Yes, sir, I did.
State (01:24:45):
So once you processed the scene, do you remember seeing a McDonald's bag on the floor anywhere near the decedent?
Amanda Carter (01:24:55):
Yes, sir.
State (01:25:00):
Did it have anything interesting or notable about that bag when you processed the basement?
Amanda Carter (01:25:05):
Yes, sir. There was what appeared to be part of a bloody hand print on the bottom of the bag.
State (01:25:15):
All right. Bloody hand print on the bottom of the bag, was it of course bent responding finger marks, hand marks off to the left of the bag to on the carpet?
Amanda Carter (01:25:27):
Yes, sir.
State (01:25:28):
Do you remember that?
Amanda Carter (01:25:34):
Yes, sir.
State (01:25:34):
And what did that evidence tell you as a trained professional when you encountered the police, if anything?
Amanda Carter (01:25:42):
Well, it had told me that someone had blood on their persons and had come in contact with that bag at that point. I can provide you the investigative details as well that the lead detective provided me if you would like.
State (01:25:59):
Just your opinion and your experience of what impression it made upon you this time.
Amanda Carter (01:26:04):
Okay.
State (01:26:06):
Do you remember what was in there? What was in the bag?
Amanda Carter (01:26:09):
It appeared to be an uneaten meal, fries, and I believe a sandwich of some type.
State (01:26:14):
Do you remember a McDonald's cup?
Amanda Carter (01:26:18):
Yes, sir.
State (01:26:19):
Tell the jury what you remember about that.
Amanda Carter (01:26:20):
I remember that there was a cup in close proximity. I'd have to refer to my report to get the exact location, but there was a cup in close proximity that gave the appearance of being dropped. There was liquid surrounding the cup and the lid was off the top of the cup.
State (01:26:39):
What about ice? Did you see anything?
Amanda Carter (01:26:40):
No, sir. I did not.
State (01:26:59):
Showing what's marked as State's Exhibit 54. 54. Do you see a cup lid in this picture?
Amanda Carter (01:27:14):
Yes, sir.
State (01:27:15):
Off to the lower right of the bag itself, do you see that?
Amanda Carter (01:27:21):
Yes, sir.
State (01:27:22):
Is that consistent with what you saw and what you've spoken about?
Amanda Carter (01:27:25):
Yes, sir. It is.
State (01:27:28):
Again, if you look at 169, you remember that... See the location of the bag in 169, would you agree then that the cup was a little bit lower to the left of the McDonald's bag. Would you agree with that?
Amanda Carter (01:27:44):
Yes, sir.
State (01:27:44):
Toward the feet of the decedent?
Amanda Carter (01:27:44):
Yes, sir.
State (01:27:47):
Is that the way you remember it?
Amanda Carter (01:27:48):
Yes, sir.
State (01:28:03):
Do you remember seeing anything, any kind of spatter, blood evidence on the walls?
Amanda Carter (01:28:09):
Yes, sir.
State (01:28:10):
Can you tell the jury what you remember?
Amanda Carter (01:28:13):
I remember seeing where the victim was. I remember seeing blood spatter on the wall to the right-hand side when you walk in the room. There were a couple other places throughout the residence, but as far as the location of the victim, there was blood spatter in that area.
State (01:28:40):
Show opposing counsel, please, what's been previously marked for identification purposes only as State's 175 and 176. Let me show you what's been previously marked as State's Exhibit 175 and 176, please. See if you recognize those photographs.
Amanda Carter (01:29:07):
Yes, sir.
State (01:29:08):
What are those photographs depicting generally?
Amanda Carter (01:29:11):
If you're standing inside the room, this would be the left side of the doorway.
State (01:29:17):
Okay. How do you recognize those photographs?
Amanda Carter (01:29:20):
That's the blood spatter that was observed on the wall.
State (01:29:23):
Did you take those photos?
Amanda Carter (01:29:24):
I did.
State (01:29:24):
Do they appear to be fair and accurate depictions of what you saw that evening regarding the wall?
Amanda Carter (01:29:29):
Yes, sir.
State (01:29:29):
Any changes, material, alterations, deletions that make those not accurate?
Amanda Carter (01:29:34):
No, sir.
State (01:32:12):
Respectfully move the court to admit into evidence what's been previously marked for identification purposes only as State's Exhibit 175 and 176.
Speaker 2 (01:32:17):
No opposition, Your Honor.
Speaker 3 (01:32:17):
All right. Admitted.
State (01:32:17):
Permission to publish, please.
Speaker 3 (01:32:17):
Yes, sir.
State (01:32:17):
These are kind of the same, so just take 176 and just show you that. What was notable about this scene that caused you to photograph it, please?
Amanda Carter (01:32:17):
The location where the victim was observed when I walked in and the location of the blood spatter seemed to be... The incident seemed to be consistent with that was where the gunshot would've occurred.
State (01:32:17):
Are you any kind of a blood spatter expert?
Amanda Carter (01:32:17):
No, sir.
State (01:32:17):
Okay. Do you have expertise in examining spatter?
Amanda Carter (01:32:17):
No, sir. A basic knowledge and training, that's it.
State (01:32:17):
Are you an expert on pattern spatter analysis where the-
Amanda Carter (01:32:17):
No, sir.
State (01:32:17):
... direction of flow or direction of impact, anything like that?
Amanda Carter (01:32:17):
No, sir.
State (01:32:17):
So once you had processed the basement, did you move on to other parts of the home and process that?
Amanda Carter (01:32:17):
As directed, yes, sir.
State (01:32:17):
Did you ever go upstairs into a bedroom area?
Amanda Carter (01:32:17):
Yes, sir.
State (01:32:17):
I can show opposing counsel what I'll mark for identification purposes only as State's Exhibit 177, please. Ma'am, let me show you what's been marked for identification purposes only as State's Exhibit 177, if I may approach. Do you recognize that?
Amanda Carter (01:32:17):
Yes, sir.
State (01:32:17):
What is that?
Amanda Carter (01:32:17):
This is a partial picture of a bed in a window sill that was believed to be the complainant's room based on the investigation.
State (01:32:17):
How do you recognize that picture?
Amanda Carter (01:32:17):
I can see in this picture a picture of the driver's license, which also identified the complainant.
State (01:32:17):
Did you take that picture?
Amanda Carter (01:32:17):
Yes, sir.
State (01:32:17):
And does it fairly and accurately depict the scene as you encountered it on that date?
Amanda Carter (01:32:17):
Yes, sir.
State (01:32:17):
Any changes, material, misrepresentations or alterations or deletions that make it not accurate?
Amanda Carter (01:32:17):
No, sir.
State (01:32:17):
Respectfully move the court to admit into evidence what's been previously marked for identification purposes on the State's Exhibit 177.
Speaker 2 (01:32:21):
No opposition.
Speaker 3 (01:32:22):
All right. It's admitted.
State (01:32:23):
Permission to publish?
Speaker 3 (01:32:24):
Yes, sir.
State (01:32:26):
And when you say complainant, who do you mean?
Amanda Carter (01:32:29):
The defendant, Ms. Boles.
State (01:32:32):
So I want to bring your attention to this photograph 177, State's 177. Do you believe this to be the upstairs bedroom?
Amanda Carter (01:32:45):
Yes, sir.
State (01:32:45):
Do you see biological evidence here?
Amanda Carter (01:32:51):
Yes, sir. I do.
State (01:32:52):
What was that?
Amanda Carter (01:32:53):
That appeared to be a blood smear.
State (01:33:00):
And you mentioned some kind of a license.
Amanda Carter (01:33:02):
Yes, sir.
State (01:33:04):
Do you see what is this here I'm circling, please, toward the lower left of 177?
Amanda Carter (01:33:09):
That is the driver's license I referred to.
State (01:33:12):
Did you have an opportunity to memorialize the driver's license you found for exempt for later analysis?
Amanda Carter (01:33:24):
No, sir. I was asked to photograph the room. I did not collect the driver's license.
State (01:33:29):
I'm sorry, this is a bad question. I should have just asked it simply. Did you photo it?
Amanda Carter (01:33:33):
Yes, I did.
State (01:33:33):
I should have asked it. It's the most simple way. Did you take a picture of the license?
Amanda Carter (01:33:37):
Yes, sir. I did.
State (01:33:38):
And whose license was it?
Amanda Carter (01:33:38):
Lacy Boles.
State (01:33:39):
Okay. Did you have an opportunity to examine a bathroom area off the master bedroom?
Amanda Carter (01:33:56):
Yes, sir.
State (01:33:57):
Before we move away from that, I'm sorry. Let me show you what I'll mark as State's Exhibit 178 before we move off that topic. I apologize. Before we get to the bathroom, let's stay in the bedroom. I'll show you opposing counsel 178, please. If I may approach opposing counsel. Let me show you 178. Do you recognize State's 178?
Amanda Carter (01:34:26):
Yes, sir.
State (01:34:28):
Did you take that photograph?
Amanda Carter (01:34:29):
Yes, sir.
State (01:34:29):
Do you think that photograph fairly and accurately depicts the scene, especially the bedroom scene as you saw it to be on December 22nd, 2019?
Amanda Carter (01:34:38):
Yes, sir.
State (01:34:39):
Any material misrepresentations made to that photograph or changes or alterations that make it not what you saw?
Amanda Carter (01:34:45):
No, sir.
State (01:34:47):
Respectfully move the court to admit into evidence State's Exhibit 178.
Speaker 2 (01:34:54):
Your Honor, no opposition, Your Honor.
Speaker 3 (01:34:55):
Okay. Admitted.
State (01:34:57):
Permission to publish, please.
Speaker 3 (01:34:58):
Yes, sir.
State (01:34:59):
Thank you. Let me just stay on this area of the bedroom, master bedroom, primary bedroom. Is that a closer photograph of the biological evidence you saw on the wall in the defendant's bedroom?
Amanda Carter (01:35:13):
Yes, sir. It is.
State (01:35:24):
Now we'll move on to a little bit different topic. Did you have an opportunity to process a bathroom area off the primary bedroom?
Amanda Carter (01:35:34):
To photograph it, yes, sir.
State (01:35:36):
Yes. Specifically, did you have an opportunity to process and photograph, evaluate a primary bathroom sink?
Amanda Carter (01:35:46):
Yes, sir.
State (01:35:46):
Did you find anything notable just with your naked eye about the primary bathroom sink?
Amanda Carter (01:35:52):
It appeared to be residual blood in the sink.
State (01:35:58):
Did you photograph that?
Amanda Carter (01:35:59):
Yes, sir. I did.
State (01:36:01):
Show opposing counsel what I'll mark as State's Exhibit 179. If I may approach opposing counsel?
Speaker 3 (01:36:12):
Yes.
State (01:36:12):
For the record, I'll show opposing counsel what's been marked previously for identification purposes only as State's Exhibit 179. Let me show you this. Do you recognize State's Exhibit 179?
Amanda Carter (01:36:28):
Yes, sir. That appears to be a closeup of the bathroom sink.
State (01:36:31):
Did you take that photo?
Amanda Carter (01:36:32):
Yes, sir.
State (01:36:33):
Does that photo 179 fairly and accurately depict the sink as you saw it on that evening?
Amanda Carter (01:36:37):
Yes, sir.
State (01:36:38):
Any changes or alterations made to State's Exhibit 179 to make it not accurate?
Amanda Carter (01:36:42):
No, sir.
State (01:36:44):
Respectfully move the court to admit into evidence State's Exhibit 179.
Speaker 2 (01:36:48):
No opposition, Your Honor.
Speaker 3 (01:36:49):
It's admitted.
State (01:36:51):
Permission to publish.
Speaker 3 (01:36:52):
Yes, sir.
State (01:36:54):
So you said that you thought that there was what looked like to be splattered blood in the sink. Was this a sink that was right off the master bedroom or primary bedroom?
Amanda Carter (01:37:04):
The master bedroom, yes.
State (01:37:07):
Is it consistent with... I mean, did you do any kind of on-the-scene testing to see if it was blood or human blood or pet blood or anything?
Amanda Carter (01:37:15):
No, sir. I was just asked to photograph it.
State (01:37:18):
Was it consistent with human blood from your training, knowledge and experience?
Amanda Carter (01:37:23):
It appeared to be.
State (01:37:23):
Have you had an opportunity to see, obviously, blood splatter splashes-
Amanda Carter (01:37:28):
Yes, sir.
State (01:37:29):
Before that evening?
Amanda Carter (01:37:29):
Yes, sir.
State (01:37:29):
And since then? Have you seen it since then?
Amanda Carter (01:37:29):
Yes, sir.
State (01:37:29):
On scenes?
Amanda Carter (01:37:33):
Yes, sir.
State (01:37:34):
Did it appear to be consistent with blood?
Amanda Carter (01:37:36):
Yes, sir.
State (01:37:37):
All right.
Speaker 3 (01:37:37):
Just have a look for a place to follow.
State (01:37:43):
I'm fine stopping right here.
Speaker 3 (01:37:44):
Okay. All right. We've been going about an hour and a half, so it's a good time for a break. Let's take 10 minutes.
Amanda Carter (01:37:47):
May I step [inaudible 01:37:55]?
Speaker 3 (01:37:47):
Sorry? Yeah, it's all right.
(01:37:47)
All right. Anything for [inaudible 01:38:27]?
Speaker 4 (01:37:47):
No, they have [inaudible 01:38:29].
State (01:37:47):
I think this evidence [inaudible 01:53:53].
Speaker 5 (01:37:47):
[inaudible 01:53:55]. Okay, thank you so much.
State (01:37:47):
[inaudible 01:54:01].
Judge Bucci (01:37:47):
They can't see the screen?
State (01:37:47):
They're blocking [inaudible 01:54:21].
Judge Bucci (01:56:11):
Okay. I've been informed that some folks mainly on the front row have some trouble seeing because of the podium or the video [inaudible 01:56:07] I'm not sure. And I'm told it's the lower part of the screen. I don't think we can move the podium much further than it is. Perhaps we can.
Speaker 6 (01:56:15):
I'll try.
Judge Bucci (01:56:22):
Okay, got some room there. All right.
Speaker 6 (01:56:28):
That's about it.
Judge Bucci (01:56:29):
That's about it. Okay. How's that?
Speaker 6 (01:56:30):
Does that block you, sir? That block any of the defense numbers?
Judge Bucci (01:56:35):
Blocking there?
Speaker 6 (01:56:35):
[inaudible 01:56:37].
Judge Bucci (01:56:36):
Okay. So we're blocking-
Speaker 5 (01:56:41):
I can stand up.
Judge Bucci (01:56:41):
You can stand?
Speaker 5 (01:56:41):
Yeah.
Judge Bucci (01:56:43):
All right. All right. Okay. You may continue.
State (01:56:48):
Thank you, Your Honor. Just for a matter of housekeeping, Your Honor, I've been applying State's Exhibit 173, this pistol, and I would ask leave of court to label the actual pistol itself 173A, unless there's any objections on the defense. And that would just be a more finite marking and labeling of this Exhibit 173, the box, and 173A, the pistol.
Brian Steel (01:57:14):
No objection, sir.
Judge Bucci (01:57:15):
All right. That's fine.
State (01:57:16):
Thank you. I'm going to approach opposing counsel and show what's been previously marked for identification purposes now as state's one... Actually, it's already been admitted into evidence as 130, 130. And if I may approach the witness, you had mentioned... Actually, I just published it. This is in evidence. If you would just look to the screen, try to make sure everybody can see it. But this is State's Exhibit 130. If you could just look at this. Can you move it all the way to the top, Mr. Burke, just in case? Move it all the way up. Is this the license you found inside the primary bedroom by the window sill?
Amanda Carter (01:58:01):
Yes, sir. It is.
State (01:58:05):
That's already in evidence as State's Exhibit 130 for the record. I'm going to approach opposing counsel and show what's been marked and already admitted in evidence as State's Exhibit 85, please. Let me publish... It may have published 85 [inaudible 01:58:30]. This is in evidence. We don't have to go through the foundation, but if you can look at State's Exhibit 85, move all the way up, Mr. Burton, if you can, just so... All the way to the top. All the way to the top. Hopefully everybody can see. Is this what you saw as far as the contents of the bag?
Amanda Carter (01:58:49):
Yes, sir.
State (01:58:49):
The McDonald's bag?
Amanda Carter (01:58:49):
Yes, sir.
State (01:58:50):
So do you have a good recollection now? Is this the way you found it?
Amanda Carter (01:58:57):
Yes, sir.
State (01:58:59):
Did it appear that the hamburger had been eaten at all?
Amanda Carter (01:59:01):
It did not.
State (01:59:02):
Did it appear that it even had been opened [inaudible 01:59:03] the box?
Amanda Carter (01:59:08):
No, sir.
State (01:59:09):
Do you see any fries in there?
Amanda Carter (01:59:11):
I don't recall. There is an additional photograph that would depict that, I believe.
State (01:59:17):
All right. And if I can approach opposing counsel and refer opposing counsel to what's already in evidence as State's Exhibit 77. You may publish that.
Judge Bucci (02:00:01):
Yes.
State (02:00:01):
This is already in evidence-
Amanda Carter (02:00:01):
Yes, sir.
State (02:00:01):
... as part of the State's Exhibit 77. And it's like you were right, there was a picture of a fry. Do you see that?
Amanda Carter (02:00:11):
Yes, sir.
State (02:00:18):
Okay. So at least some of the fries were uneaten. Is that your recollection?
Amanda Carter (02:00:22):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:00:22):
What number was that?
State (02:00:22):
Sorry, State's Exhibit 77.
Brian Steel (02:00:22):
Thank you.
State (02:00:33):
Yes, sir. So we're talking about this bag, this McDonald's bag in a lot of subject demo, a lot of testimony. State's Exhibit 59, for example, shows that you acknowledge [inaudible 02:00:51] you can see it. So did you collect the McDonald's bag?
Amanda Carter (02:00:54):
No, sir.
State (02:00:57):
Did you photograph it?
Amanda Carter (02:00:57):
Yes, sir.
State (02:01:00):
Obviously you've taken, it looked like several photographs of it from different angles. Did you do that?
Amanda Carter (02:01:03):
Yes, sir.
State (02:01:04):
Why didn't you collect it and take it into evidence?
Amanda Carter (02:01:06):
The bag was consistent with the investigative details that I had been provided by the lead detective, showing that they had advised me that Ms. Boles had been over the victim and had blood on her, and it's consistent with someone pressing their hand down as a support to stand up from being in the floor.
State (02:01:28):
So is it your understanding that detectives, prior you got there, prior to you arriving, they had talked to this defendant? They received this information from somebody?
Amanda Carter (02:01:39):
Some form of the investigation had provided them with those details. Yes, sir. But I'm unaware of who they spoke to or interviewed.
State (02:01:45):
Okay. But at that time when you began your processing of the basement, have you had that information?
Amanda Carter (02:01:51):
I was provided with that information, yes.
State (02:01:53):
Is there anything abnormal about the bag or the nature of the bag to your knowledge that would've been contrary to what you've received?
Amanda Carter (02:02:01):
No, sir.
State (02:02:03):
If there had been, would you have collected it?
Amanda Carter (02:02:05):
Yes, sir.
State (02:02:10):
Okay. Seven years later, this is a murder trial...
Amanda Carter (02:02:14):
In hindsight, I do wish I had collected the bag.
State (02:02:17):
All right. And the cup?
Amanda Carter (02:02:19):
Yes, sir.
State (02:02:21):
All right. That's fair enough. Did you go into this crime scene with any notion, suicide, homicide, accident? Did you have any preconceived notions about-
Amanda Carter (02:02:33):
Only that it was a death investigation.
State (02:02:36):
Okay. So just a death investigation?
Amanda Carter (02:02:37):
Yes, sir.
State (02:02:38):
Was that what it was to you when you approached it and how you worked it?
Amanda Carter (02:02:41):
That's how we're trained is you approach it as a death investigation. You don't know if it's a suicide, if it's a homicide, if it's an accident. You aren't aware of that. Your job is to process the scene-
State (02:02:56):
I'm sorry.
Amanda Carter (02:02:57):
That's okay. Go ahead.
State (02:02:58):
Did you come in there with any bias toward or against anybody?
Amanda Carter (02:02:58):
No, sir.
State (02:03:03):
Obviously, it's tragic. You see a tragic scene.
Amanda Carter (02:03:06):
Yes.
State (02:03:06):
Somebody's lost their life. Does that make you lean toward one side or the other when you're processing it?
Amanda Carter (02:03:11):
No, sir.
State (02:03:11):
You kind of have to rise above that?
Amanda Carter (02:03:14):
Yes, sir.
State (02:03:15):
Did you do that here? Did you rise above that and process it as professional as you could?
Amanda Carter (02:03:19):
Yes, sir. I did.
State (02:03:43):
Also, did you collect anything from the decedent's pockets or about his immediate person?
Amanda Carter (02:03:50):
So we removed the contents. They were put in plain view. Normal practice is to photograph the contents of the decedent's pockets and the personal belongings are released to the coroner or provided to the coroner. The only thing that I recall collecting at that time was a cell phone because they can potentially obtain additional evidence in the event that it's needed and you can't retrieve it at a later point. So that was preserved.
State (02:04:23):
May I approach the witness please?
Judge Bucci (02:04:23):
Yes.
State (02:04:26):
Thank you.
(02:04:26)
Tell the jury just, and I don't really honestly don't even know this myself, what is the coroner's official job? Did the coroner arrive while you were there?
Amanda Carter (02:04:37):
She did.
State (02:04:38):
Coroner, what's her name back then?
Amanda Carter (02:04:40):
Lindsay Eberhart.
State (02:04:42):
Coroner Eberhart arrived?
Amanda Carter (02:04:43):
Yes, sir.
State (02:04:44):
What is the coroner's job while you're working your job? What's the coroner's responsibility?
Amanda Carter (02:04:48):
So she came in and pronounced the victim deceased. At that time, she would've stayed on scene until we finished processing, assisted with anything that we may have needed. We don't move the victim until she arrives. So any additional photographs or moving of the victim would be in her presence. And then when the scene is complete and we're ready to release the scene, then the body is released to the coroner.
State (02:05:18):
So did you take pictures of the decedent after moving him, various pictures of the body that we may not be able to see in these pictures?
Amanda Carter (02:05:28):
Additional photographs were taken. I recall they had lifted some of his clothing, especially to photograph his back. I don't remember all the areas that were photographed, but the victim would've been evaluated prior to leaving the scene.
State (02:05:45):
Did you take those photographs then after the coroner arrived?
Amanda Carter (02:05:48):
After the coroner arrived, yes. Nothing on the victim was moved prior to her arrival.
State (02:05:58):
Okay. Let me show you... Let me approach opposing counsel, please, Your Honor, if I may, and show what's been marked for identification purposes only, as State's Exhibit 180. If I may approach you, Ms. Carter, and ask you to put the gloves on and take a look at State's Exhibit, what's been marked as 180, 180.
Amanda Carter (02:06:52):
This appears to be an evidence bag that is labeled as containing a cell phone, Apple iPhone, white in a case.
State (02:07:01):
How do you recognize that item before you labeled State's 180?
Amanda Carter (02:07:10):
My name is handwritten on here and that is my handwriting.
State (02:07:16):
Is this State's Exhibit 180, other than maybe having different tape on it, some of the markings of the people who may have opened it [inaudible 02:07:24] the security, is the bag at least the same or in similar conditions to when you bagged it?
Amanda Carter (02:07:28):
Yes, sir.
State (02:07:30):
Any reason that you believe that that's not a fair and accurate representation of the bag, the evidence and cell phone as you bagged it, collected it on that date?
Amanda Carter (02:07:38):
I would have no reason to believe.
State (02:07:41):
You see your initials or your name?
Amanda Carter (02:07:42):
Yes, sir.
State (02:07:43):
Respectfully, move the court to admit into evidence what's been marked previously for identification purposes only as State's Exhibit 180.
Brian Steel (02:07:50):
No opposition, Your Honor.
Judge Bucci (02:07:51):
Submitted.
State (02:07:52):
Permission to publish, please.
Judge Bucci (02:07:53):
Yes, sir.
State (02:07:53):
Thank you.
Amanda Carter (02:07:54):
Yes, sir.
State (02:07:57):
Mr. Burke, if I can just show this [inaudible 02:08:04]. Yeah, that's pretty good. So if you will just... You have a number here and then I'm referencing before the jury for the record, State's Exhibit 180 on the big screen. What does this mean, case number at the top ending in 626?
Amanda Carter (02:08:19):
That's the year, the month, and the case number that would be originally assigned through dispatch, that would follow any investigative reports or anything done with this case throughout.
State (02:08:33):
Okay. So is it fair that case number 626 might be on other things?
Amanda Carter (02:08:36):
The 53626, yes, but you always have the year and month in front of it as well.
State (02:08:42):
Does 53626 follow along with the case until the case conclusion, as far as your office was concerned?
Amanda Carter (02:08:48):
Yes, sir.
State (02:08:50):
And read, please, for the jury, what is the description that you put on here?
Amanda Carter (02:08:54):
Cell phone, Apple iPhone, white in a case.
State (02:08:59):
Okay. And obviously, is this the date you collected it and bagged it?
Amanda Carter (02:09:02):
Yes, sir.
State (02:09:03):
12/22/19?
Amanda Carter (02:09:04):
Yes, sir, it is.
State (02:09:05):
If I may just have you open it, please. If you'll please open State's Exhibit 180.
Amanda Carter (02:09:43):
Do you want me to remove it?
State (02:09:49):
If you can remove the contents from 180, please. Again, do you see some tape on there? Which one's your tape?
Amanda Carter (02:09:53):
This one here, the initials. The side's cut.
State (02:09:57):
Show opposing counsel. Which color tape did you put on here?
Amanda Carter (02:10:01):
I believe it was the blue tape. It's the one with the ABC initials on it.
State (02:10:09):
ABC, Amanda B. Carter, I believe?
Amanda Carter (02:10:09):
Yes, sir.
State (02:10:09):
So the blue tape is you when you first collect the evidence?
Amanda Carter (02:10:11):
Yes, sir.
State (02:10:12):
But we see green and red on here as well. Do you know the origin of those things?
Amanda Carter (02:10:16):
Different departments, different agencies. I can't say for certain. They should be logged on the property and evidence record in the chain of custody.
State (02:10:26):
Okay. What does chain of custody mean?
Amanda Carter (02:10:28):
It shows the location of the evidence and if it changes hands, if it goes from one place to another, anyone that has encountered that evidence at any point in time should be on that chain of custody.
State (02:10:38):
All right. And why seal it with this tape? What's the purpose?
Amanda Carter (02:10:44):
Because you want to maintain the integrity of the evidence, and if you open it, then you need to be the one to reseal it to make sure that it's still maintained in the same condition that you originally put it in the bag.
State (02:10:55):
All right. If you'll remove the contents of 180, please, and show the jury. All right. So if you can kind of show what's in there and just describe it for the record, please, what you're showing.
Amanda Carter (02:11:11):
This appears to be part of the cell phone cover, two additional pieces of the cell phone cover, and then this, the actual cell phone, and it has a SIM card taped to the front of it.
State (02:11:27):
Why would that be?
Amanda Carter (02:11:29):
I can't say with certainty, but I would imagine some sort of processing.
Brian Steel (02:11:33):
Objection, speculation.
State (02:11:34):
Have you... Is that the... I'm sorry. I apologize. I'll rephrase it, Your Honor. Was the SIM card taped to it to the front like that when you last bagged it?
Amanda Carter (02:11:43):
No, sir.
State (02:11:44):
Is it common for other detectives, other examiners possibly to remove a SIM card to examine or analyze it?
Amanda Carter (02:11:50):
It's possible.
State (02:11:52):
Other than the SIM card being taped to it, is that the same condition you saw those items in on that evening?
Amanda Carter (02:11:59):
In the case being taken apart, yes, sir. Everything appears to be here.
State (02:12:03):
Okay. So you have two plastic pieces that form the case. Do you see that?
Amanda Carter (02:12:08):
Yes, sir. Front and back, and then the...
State (02:12:11):
The rubber part to case-
Amanda Carter (02:12:13):
That would go on the back over the plastic piece.
State (02:12:15):
When you bagged it, obviously, was it-
Amanda Carter (02:12:18):
All of this was together.
State (02:12:19):
... was the case intact?
Amanda Carter (02:12:19):
Yes, sir.
State (02:12:21):
Okay. But is it possible that other examiners undid the case?
Amanda Carter (02:12:25):
It would be necessary to undo it.
State (02:12:29):
Okay. May I approach the jury box, please, Your Honor, to publish? I'll mark this, Your Honor, if I may, I'm going to mark this, the inside of 180, State's 180, marking 180A, as in alpha, 180A. Is this the cell phone that you removed from the pockets or the immediate person of the decedent, in this case, Daniel Akers, on that-
Amanda Carter (02:12:53):
It appears to be.
State (02:13:03):
You have two gloves, so let me see if you can repackage it. Thank you. Just to be absolutely sure, Your Honor, state tenders 173A, the pistol, the interior contents of 173 and 180A, the interior of 180, just for the record.
Judge Bucci (02:14:24):
All right. Any objection?
Brian Steel (02:14:25):
Are these the cell phones and the parts? No problem if that's what it is.
State (02:14:35):
Okay. There's one more area that I wanted to mention. I know that you're familiar with firearms and you collect firearms and examine them a lot. Is that true?
Amanda Carter (02:14:46):
I wouldn't say examine them. That's usually GBI, but I'm familiar with firearms.
State (02:14:51):
I'm sorry, I meant processing-
Amanda Carter (02:14:52):
Yes, sir.
State (02:14:53):
I meant processing. Have you come across scenes before with firearms on scene?
Amanda Carter (02:14:55):
Yes, sir.
State (02:14:56):
Okay. And many times?
Amanda Carter (02:14:56):
Yes, sir.
State (02:14:58):
And I just wanted to clarify, since you and I know firearms, but the jury might not, when I said there was a spent round in the cylinder, do you know what that means?
Amanda Carter (02:15:09):
Yes, sir.
State (02:15:09):
Tell the jury.
Amanda Carter (02:15:11):
That means that there were multiple live rounds of ammunition, but that firearm had fired one round and the ammunition and shell casings that were inside the firearm were consistent with that.
State (02:15:25):
All right. So one round had been fired from this cylinder, which looks to hold about nine shots, eight shots, would you agree? Let's count, one, two, three, four, five, six... Nine shots?
Amanda Carter (02:15:34):
Yes, sir.
State (02:15:38):
How many live shots were there? Eight?
Amanda Carter (02:15:40):
I believe there were eight and one spent shell casing.
State (02:15:43):
And on a revolver, just in case, some people may not own weapons or may have never shot a revolver. When a revolver is shot, is there a shell that is expended?
Amanda Carter (02:15:55):
No, sir.
State (02:15:57):
Does the shell then remain in the cylinder?
Amanda Carter (02:15:59):
Yes, sir, it does.
State (02:16:00):
Did you find that empty shell casing in the cylinder?
Amanda Carter (02:16:03):
Yes, sir, I did.
State (02:16:04):
Did you remove it and preserve it for evidence?
Amanda Carter (02:16:06):
Yes, sir, I did.
State (02:16:06):
Did you remove and preserve all the live rounds from the cylinder that you found?
Amanda Carter (02:16:10):
Yes, sir, I did.
State (02:16:46):
When you entered the scene, do you remember seeing a... I'd say it was a split-level type of house, do you remember that?
Amanda Carter (02:16:52):
Yes, sir.
State (02:16:53):
I think you said, you go up to the left over here, there's a living area. Did you say that?
Amanda Carter (02:16:55):
Yes, sir.
State (02:16:55):
And then to the right would then go down, there's a basement?
Amanda Carter (02:16:55):
Yes, sir. That's correct.
State (02:16:55):
And did you go up and you went in the living area at some point too, correct?
Amanda Carter (02:17:04):
Yes, sir, I did.
State (02:17:04):
Do you remember seeing a trash can out in the floor? You just saw a random trash can, do you remember seeing something like that?
Amanda Carter (02:17:14):
Yes, sir.
State (02:17:18):
What information, why was that important to you, just to see that you saw a trash can out in the living floor, the living area?
Amanda Carter (02:17:24):
Based on the investigative details I had been provided, the victim was upstairs in the living room with responders prior to my arrival, and she had utilized the trash can because she had been vomiting.
State (02:17:41):
Have you come into contact with other victims at scenes before?
Amanda Carter (02:17:45):
Many victims.
State (02:17:46):
You ever seen somebody vomiting at a scene like this?
Amanda Carter (02:17:50):
No, sir. It's the first time I've seen that, but I did not see her. I have only photographed the trash can.
State (02:17:57):
Right. The word you received, she had been vomiting or about to vomit.
Amanda Carter (02:18:02):
Yes, sir.
State (02:18:03):
And what you had seen personally, all these crimes since you were, you ever seen that?
Amanda Carter (02:18:06):
I've never seen that.
State (02:18:09):
I don't have anything further. Thank you.
Judge Bucci (02:18:11):
All right. Cross examination.
Brian Steel (02:18:30):
Thank you. How are you?
Amanda Carter (02:18:34):
Good. How are you?
Brian Steel (02:18:35):
Good to see you. Thank you.
Amanda Carter (02:18:36):
Good to see you, sir.
Brian Steel (02:18:38):
May I ask you questions?
Amanda Carter (02:18:41):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:18:41):
The whole purpose of what you're trying to do for everybody is to gather the truth. Is that fair to say?
Amanda Carter (02:19:07):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:19:09):
Because there was a time before you were born that science didn't catch up with crime scene. Is that true?
Amanda Carter (02:19:16):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:19:18):
And we used to come to these scenes and not even take photographs, collect some evidence, and just have people just repeat to jurors what they believe they saw. Is that accurate?
Amanda Carter (02:19:32):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:19:34):
And over time, the people who are interested in seeing truth come out, said, "We have to do better." Fair?
Amanda Carter (02:19:44):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:19:45):
And there's this movement, and it's been going on for decades now, but this movement to ensure that the highest quality of information is provided to a jury in a courtroom. Is that true?
Amanda Carter (02:19:59):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:19:59):
And that includes, and it's multiple, it's well beyond...
Brian Steel (02:20:00):
And that includes, and it's multiple, it's well beyond you, but that includes what you do for people, right?
Amanda Carter (02:20:07):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:20:07):
Because you're a critical part of securing evidence so the truth can be learned, fair?
Amanda Carter (02:20:17):
Yes.
Brian Steel (02:20:18):
And I heard the prosecutor ask you, are you biased? You're just there as an important critical person to find things so other people can present it to the jury to hopefully reach a truthful verdict. Is that fair to say?
Amanda Carter (02:20:38):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:20:40):
And you go through tremendous training. And when I say you, I heard all your qualifications, but the big issue with you is you want to observe what's going on, right?
Amanda Carter (02:20:56):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:20:57):
You then want to memorialize it in some way, correct?
Amanda Carter (02:21:00):
Correct.
Brian Steel (02:21:02):
And memorialize could be taking photographs, right?
Amanda Carter (02:21:06):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:21:06):
Videos?
Amanda Carter (02:21:08):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:21:09):
Collect evidence?
Amanda Carter (02:21:10):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:21:11):
Take swabs?
Amanda Carter (02:21:12):
Yes.
Brian Steel (02:21:13):
Jurors may not know what a swab is, and correct me, but you take like, I'm going to make it simple, but like a Q-tip and you could touch it to suspected blood to have the blood get onto, or the item, I guess, get onto the Q-tip and then send it off to somebody qualified who can put it with other agents or chemicals or high-powered microscopes, whatever, and determine what the substance is. True?
Amanda Carter (02:21:40):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:21:41):
And there's also, in our world that we're living in now, there's these unbelievable advancements of DNA, true?
Amanda Carter (02:21:51):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:21:53):
And I'm not asking you, I heard you're not a DNA expert, I'm not going there, but we all have DNA, all the human beings and animals and innate objects, right?
Amanda Carter (02:22:05):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:22:06):
And we're shredding, leaving behind evidence that we've been places because of our DNA is left behind, right?
Amanda Carter (02:22:14):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:22:14):
So while I'm standing here in the Honorable Judge Bucci's courtroom and he's allowing me to touch this podium, there's a possibility, a good possibility, that I'm actually leaving my DNA everywhere I've been. Is that true?
Amanda Carter (02:22:29):
Yes.
Brian Steel (02:22:30):
And then scientists, I'm not saying you, but there are scientists who, if they're provided that information, that the swabbings of where I went, they can then observe whether there is a collection of DNA to test, true?
Amanda Carter (02:22:45):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:22:45):
And then if they take a known sample, like if it was me and they swabbed my mouth, they went in with a Q-tip into my cheeks, they could send it to that same scientist and he'd say, "Okay, this is Brian Steel. This is his known DNA, get a profile and then compare it to the profile of the item that was submitted." True?
Amanda Carter (02:23:04):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:23:05):
And that's how we can make matches, right?
Amanda Carter (02:23:07):
Correct.
Brian Steel (02:23:07):
And DNA is like sometimes beyond trillions, like one in a trillion, it's not Brian's. I mean, it's astronomical. What we believe, maybe one day it's proven wrong, but what we believe to be the highest evidence, fair?
Amanda Carter (02:23:22):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:23:23):
Same thing with fingerprints. I'm not saying it's the same degree as DNA, but fingerprints also could be looked for, gathered, fair to say?
Amanda Carter (02:23:32):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:23:34):
Okay. And I want to thank you for what you do, because that's what you tried to do on December 22, 2019, right?
Amanda Carter (02:23:40):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:23:41):
I'm confident you had better things to do in your life than sit there early morning hours, but it was so important that that's what you did, true?
Amanda Carter (02:23:50):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:23:52):
And you take your job seriously.
Amanda Carter (02:23:53):
Yes, sir, I do.
Brian Steel (02:23:55):
And we don't do things on hunches, right? I mean, it's not like speculation like, "Oh, I think the person was going to do this." I mean, we try as best we can to provide the jurors with accurate information, right?
Amanda Carter (02:24:09):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:24:10):
Because if there's more than one way to look at something, then that's fine. Then we say there's more than one way to look at it, right. Is that true?
Amanda Carter (02:24:19):
Yes, sir, it is.
Brian Steel (02:24:20):
But we try to narrow down to the logical event and what caused it, right?
Amanda Carter (02:24:27):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:24:28):
So things generally are logical, fair to say?
Amanda Carter (02:24:34):
Fair.
Brian Steel (02:24:34):
So if I were to have this Sharpie on the honorable Judge Bucci's podium, and then I just pushed it off, now it's on the floor, we all left, somebody can say that Sharpie fell off the podium, right?
Amanda Carter (02:24:54):
Or the desk, yes.
Brian Steel (02:24:55):
Yeah, or the desk, or I could have placed it on the floor. True?
Amanda Carter (02:24:59):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:25:02):
Or it could have been there the day before, right?
Amanda Carter (02:25:04):
Could have.
Brian Steel (02:25:05):
It could have been there for a week, right?
Amanda Carter (02:25:08):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:25:09):
But we try to not put all these subjective information. We just look at it and say, "Here's what it is. Here's what I saw. Here's what I observed." And we don't guess, right?
Amanda Carter (02:25:21):
We don't guess, no.
Brian Steel (02:25:23):
So when the prosecutor sat down a minute ago, I think you made it clear. I mean, you said the victim was vomiting into a trash can. You weren't there, but that's what you were told. Fair to say?
Amanda Carter (02:25:37):
That is what the investigation led to, yes.
Brian Steel (02:25:39):
And the victims being Ms. Boles, right?
Amanda Carter (02:25:41):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:25:42):
And the prosecutor then asked you another question and says somehow-
Amanda Carter (02:25:48):
I think I referred to her as the complainant.
Brian Steel (02:25:51):
You did earlier, but on that sequence, whatever the record says, it doesn't matter. It's Ms. Boles is who we're talking about.
Amanda Carter (02:25:56):
Yes, Ms. Boles.
Brian Steel (02:26:02):
Yeah. People who are in traumatic, unexpected, tragic situations can be affected mentally, true?
Amanda Carter (02:26:17):
True.
Brian Steel (02:26:19):
And emotionally, right?
Amanda Carter (02:26:21):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:26:22):
And spiritually?
Amanda Carter (02:26:24):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:26:25):
And physically?
Amanda Carter (02:26:27):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:26:29):
And vomiting or dry heaving or whatever the right term would be, that is a combination of mental as well as physical. Is that true?
Amanda Carter (02:26:42):
Can be.
Brian Steel (02:26:43):
And for the prosecutor to say you've never seen somebody or heard about somebody vomiting after a traumatic situation, are you saying that that's some inference of guilt?
Amanda Carter (02:26:58):
I'm only saying that it's something that I haven't seen.
State (02:27:00):
Objection, Your Honor. I'd like to take that outside the presence of the jury.
Judge (02:27:46):
Okay. We'll take a break. Your objection is?
Brian Steel (02:27:47):
Your Honor, I don't know what the objection is, but can Ms. Carter, Crime Scene Technician Carter, be excused from your courtroom?
Judge (02:27:53):
Ms. Carter.
Amanda Carter (02:27:54):
Yes, sir.
Judge (02:27:54):
[inaudible 02:27:56].
Amanda Carter (02:27:56):
Yes, sir.
State (02:28:18):
Your Honor, respectfully, Mr. Steel elicited questioning and draws upon the ultimate issue for the jury. All I said was, "Was it unusual?" I was pointing to the unusual nature of someone vomiting at the scene. Had she ever seen that, it's unusual. I didn't use the term guilt, innocence. That's what Mr. Steel used. Are you drawing... Are you saying that that implies some inference of guilt? That goes to the jury in the ultimate issue. This witness cannot comment on inferences of guilt, inferences of innocence or anything even remotely close to that. So that's an improper question. If I did that, there'd be... All three of these fine lawyers would be objecting to it because I can't do that and neither can the defense. Thank you.
Judge (02:28:56):
Do you have a response here?
Brian Steel (02:29:00):
Yes, I have a response. It's a proper question. I'm not asking anybody to comment on guilt. I didn't understand, and I'm asking questions on cross-examination to get an understanding of why that was even an impact. And she can say, "Oh, yeah, that was an inference of guilt, or no, that's an inference of innocence, or I made a mistake." It really means nothing, but that's what I'm asking for. So no, I don't think that it's an improper question.
Judge (02:29:26):
All right. I'll overrule the objection [inaudible 02:29:33].
(02:29:26)
[inaudible 02:29:50] the jury back.
(02:29:52)
Do you mind asking them to come?
(02:29:54)
Okay.
Brian Steel (02:30:19):
While we do that, can I run to the bathroom? And I don't have to if we-
Judge (02:30:22):
Might as well go ahead.
Brian Steel (02:30:30):
Okay. Thank you.
Judge (02:31:49):
All right. Hold on, Diane. We've had lawyers take a quick break, so in just a minute, okay? Just a little.
(02:31:52)
All right. Let's get-
Speaker 7 (02:33:05):
Your Honor, before the jury comes back, I've got another witness who's been here all morning. I don't anticipate we're going to get to that person before lunch, and I would just like to let them go ahead and have a longer lunch if that's possible.
Judge (02:33:19):
All right. You want to tell the witness to be back, say what? 1:00?
Speaker 7 (02:33:27):
All right. Thank you, Your Honor.
Brian Steel (02:33:30):
Can I throw this in there?
State (02:33:30):
It's fine.
Judge (02:34:06):
Okay, let's resume.
Brian Steel (02:34:36):
Thank you, Your Honor. So was that some tell or inference of you of guilt, the fact that you were told that the complainant, Ms. Boles, was vomiting?
Amanda Carter (02:35:01):
No, it was something I had never seen before. That was my only observation to it.
Brian Steel (02:35:07):
Have you ever come to a scene before or after December 22, 2019, where a wife sees her husband committing suicide, tries to grab him and stop him, the husband, the gun discharges, the husband falls down, the wife falls on top, she tries to save his life. Have you ever been in that scene before?
Amanda Carter (02:35:32):
I can't say with those exact details.
Brian Steel (02:35:34):
So the answer is?
Amanda Carter (02:35:35):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (02:35:37):
All right. I want to ask you, I think you did this. If you didn't do it, just tell me.
Amanda Carter (02:35:41):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:35:42):
But you took photographs of the deceased, Mr. Akers, God forbid, items on his person or around his person or in his wallet. I believe that's true. Is that right?
Amanda Carter (02:35:52):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:35:53):
I'm going to show you some of these things. Just tell me if you recognize it, okay?
Amanda Carter (02:35:56):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:35:57):
And if you do, I'd like to ask the court to consider admitting into evidence. If you don't, obviously I'll do it with a different witness.
Amanda Carter (02:36:03):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:36:15):
Your Honor, may I approach the honorable-
Judge (02:36:20):
You may.
Brian Steel (02:36:20):
Ms. Carter, may I approach you?
Amanda Carter (02:36:21):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:36:26):
I'm going to show you what I've marked as Ms. Boles number 72, then three, four, five, six, seven, eight.
Amanda Carter (02:36:33):
Okay.
Brian Steel (02:36:34):
Just tell me if you recognize these as items that you memorialized on or around December 22, 2019. And if you recognize some but not others, just make like two piles so we can then discuss them.
Amanda Carter (02:36:49):
I don't recall these exact photos, sir.
Brian Steel (02:37:09):
Okay. Did you take photographs from items of inside the car that was driven by Mr. Akers?
Amanda Carter (02:37:18):
I took photographs of the car. We didn't remove any items from the car at that time.
Brian Steel (02:37:23):
Okay. Do you know who would be responsible for doing that?
Amanda Carter (02:37:26):
No, sir. I don't.
Brian Steel (02:37:27):
So you cannot recognize what is memorialized in Ms. Boles number 72 through 78?
Amanda Carter (02:37:35):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (02:37:36):
Okay. Then we will do it another witness. Just do me a courtesy. Just put that aside.
Amanda Carter (02:37:39):
Yeah.
Brian Steel (02:37:40):
But do not refer to them.
Amanda Carter (02:37:42):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:37:54):
Okay. You've never worked at a crime lab, true?
Amanda Carter (02:38:09):
True.
Brian Steel (02:38:10):
And a crime lab, I mean, it's just the name, but it's a laboratory full of scientists basically, right?
Amanda Carter (02:38:15):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:38:16):
And they, in Georgia, we're fortunate enough to have the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, it's law enforcement, but they have scientists working with them, right?
Amanda Carter (02:38:25):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:38:26):
And the scientists, I guess they could be law enforcement, but they're generally, like me, they're a civilian person.
Amanda Carter (02:38:31):
I believe they're civilian.
Brian Steel (02:38:33):
And they've been trained, educated, skilled, hopefully, I'm not saying people don't make errors, but to do certain types of testing on items that potentially you could collect, true?
Amanda Carter (02:38:45):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:38:46):
And in the crime lab here in Georgia, we have a blood section. Is that your knowledge?
Amanda Carter (02:38:54):
Yes, sir. I believe so.
Brian Steel (02:38:55):
And the blood section can test for things like alcohol or drugs?
Amanda Carter (02:39:01):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:39:01):
It could also test for DNA?
Amanda Carter (02:39:04):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:39:05):
It could also test for whether there's mixing of different person's bloods and typing, et cetera, true?
Amanda Carter (02:39:18):
I'm not sure of all the capabilities of their test, but they can perform any tests related to DNA evidence.
Brian Steel (02:39:27):
They have a firearm section?
Amanda Carter (02:39:29):
Yes, sir, they do.
Brian Steel (02:39:30):
Fingerprint section?
Amanda Carter (02:39:31):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:39:32):
DNA section?
Amanda Carter (02:39:33):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:39:34):
Autopsy, medical examiner section?
Amanda Carter (02:39:36):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:39:37):
And other sections that may or may not be involved in our case, but they also work together, fair to say?
Amanda Carter (02:39:42):
They do.
Brian Steel (02:39:42):
So if there's a firearm involved, you can have people test the firearm, but they go to protocol and say, "Well, we're going to test the firearm, but first we're going to check it for DNA," right?
Amanda Carter (02:39:51):
Yes, sir. That's correct.
Brian Steel (02:39:52):
Because as you may have noticed in the courtroom, the honorable district attorney investigator, he didn't wear gloves, but he held the firearm around the trigger area. Did you see that?
Amanda Carter (02:40:02):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:40:03):
With his bare hands? Did you notice that? You didn't notice that?
Amanda Carter (02:40:07):
Yes, I did.
Brian Steel (02:40:08):
Okay. And you didn't do that because you know that there's some potential, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with what he did, but blood can carry germs.
Amanda Carter (02:40:19):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:40:19):
Even from 2019, right?
Amanda Carter (02:40:22):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:40:24):
And in this case, you were careful, knowledgeable to ensure that that firearm was cared for and not disturbed as best as possible because it may contain true evidence, true?
Amanda Carter (02:40:45):
To the best of my ability, yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:40:47):
Yeah. I mean, you noticed that firearm had potential blood on it, right?
Amanda Carter (02:40:52):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:40:53):
And it may not have had blood. I understand other substances can look like blood, but it looked like-
Amanda Carter (02:40:58):
It appeared to.
Brian Steel (02:40:58):
It appeared to be blood. And we would know that because we can test it. When I say we, not me, but scientists can test it and determine that it is blood, true?
Amanda Carter (02:41:05):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:41:06):
And they could tell whether it's an animal's blood or a human blood, right?
Amanda Carter (02:41:10):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:41:11):
Or not blood at all?
Amanda Carter (02:41:12):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:41:13):
And they could tell with DNA whose blood it belongs to potentially if there's a known donor, right?
Amanda Carter (02:41:18):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:41:20):
And when you grabbed the firearm, and we'll discuss it here and show it to the jury, you didn't, to the best of your ability, let other people touch that firearm because they can damage the evidence on the firearm, even if it's innocently. Like the investigator did, when he touched that, he added to and changed the dynamics of that firearm, true?
Amanda Carter (02:41:45):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:41:47):
Now it's seven years later, so the testing obviously is over, so he didn't do anything to change this trial. Is that all true?
Amanda Carter (02:41:55):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:41:57):
And when you collected it, you ensured that it was in proper position, care, quality control to be sent to the crime lab if the lead detective wanted that to happen for testing, true?
Amanda Carter (02:42:12):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:42:13):
And you knew that it's a death investigation, which this is not the first death investigation you ever were on, true?
Amanda Carter (02:42:21):
True.
Brian Steel (02:42:22):
And I know it's Paulding County, it's very safe and it's a great place to be housed, but tragically, there are other murders, killings, suicide, accidental deaths that occur in this county before 2019, right?
Amanda Carter (02:42:40):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:42:41):
And it's not like the law enforcement who arrived are just inept, they're actually trained to make sure they collect all evidence, true?
Amanda Carter (02:42:49):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:42:50):
And that's part of your training too?
Amanda Carter (02:42:52):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:42:53):
With regards to the revolver, you noticed what is supposedly, and I'm not saying it's not, but I'm not going to say it is, but it looks like there to be blood, right?
Amanda Carter (02:43:06):
It appeared to be, yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:43:07):
And you also knew that the issue here was did Mr. Akers pull that trigger and kill himself because that's what the call came out as from 911, right?
Amanda Carter (02:43:21):
I don't know what the call came out as. I know what Detective Ogden provided me with on scene.
Brian Steel (02:43:27):
Was it similar to what I just said?
Amanda Carter (02:43:29):
It was similar, yes.
Brian Steel (02:43:30):
Saying that the deceased took his own life with a firearm, right?
Amanda Carter (02:43:37):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:43:39):
And that revolver, if tested, may show whose DNA is on that trigger pull, true?
Amanda Carter (02:43:48):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:43:50):
It's a revolver. And if you don't know this, just say, "Brian, I don't feel comfortable. I'm under oath." But does the hammer... Do you know what I'm talking about, by the hammer of the firearm?
Amanda Carter (02:44:00):
I do.
Brian Steel (02:44:01):
Explain to the jurors what the hammer is and whether it needs to be touched in order to engage to fire, if you know. And if you don't know, just say-
Amanda Carter (02:44:10):
I do, but I don't feel comfortable explaining it under oath because I don't want to misspeak.
Brian Steel (02:44:13):
No, no. And that's what we're doing here. You're trying to give pristine evidence, right?
Amanda Carter (02:44:16):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:44:17):
And you made that comment earlier about the blood evidence. I heard you make it clear, "I am not a blood expert. I've been around it. I've listened to other people, but I am not telling you anything of substance about blood. That is not my lane." True?
Amanda Carter (02:44:33):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:44:34):
I mean, I heard you say that because you were calling something spatter and the shot may have occurred entering the room.
Amanda Carter (02:44:42):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:44:43):
But you made it clear, rely on somebody else. I'm giving you 50 cents of information that may be worth nothing, true?
Amanda Carter (02:44:51):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:44:55):
All right. Now, whose job it is, and specifically is it yours, when you properly grab that revolver, you're wearing gloves, we saw in some photographs, right?
Amanda Carter (02:45:06):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:45:07):
And the gloves help, by the way, not to wipe off evidence, true?
Amanda Carter (02:45:11):
True.
Brian Steel (02:45:12):
And it also protects the person touching the item, right?
Amanda Carter (02:45:15):
It does.
Brian Steel (02:45:16):
So it's a good thing for both reasons, right?
Amanda Carter (02:45:18):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:45:20):
And when you collected it, was it your charge, your responsibility to say, "Hey, send this to the Georgia Crime Lab or the FBI or the DEA crime lab or the CIA or whomever law enforcement for the DNA testing on who pulled the trigger?" Is that your call?
Amanda Carter (02:45:42):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (02:45:43):
That would be the lead detective. Is that fair to say?
Amanda Carter (02:45:46):
Based on where the investigation leads, yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:45:49):
All right. And you, although it's not your call, you're preserving everything you can so somebody else later can say, "Yeah, I want this tested. I want this tested," et cetera?
Amanda Carter (02:46:01):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:46:02):
And that's why I believe you said, and I heard you very frankly told the jury, "I really wish I would've taken the McDonald's bag."
Amanda Carter (02:46:12):
Yes, sir, that's correct.
Brian Steel (02:46:13):
And the cup, because actually that's evidence that could be useful to this case, right?
Amanda Carter (02:46:19):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:46:21):
And no one's criticizing you, but at the time you thought, "Well, I could photograph it, that would be fine enough," right?
Amanda Carter (02:46:29):
At the time, we believe photographs were sufficient. It was consistent with all the details provided in the investigation.
Brian Steel (02:46:35):
And then afterwards though, it would've been nice to potentially have the McDonald's bag so we can see whether it was in fact dropped or placed down potentially, right?
Amanda Carter (02:46:48):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:46:49):
And the cup, and I'm going to show pictures to the jurors. I know you and I and the prosecutors have been pouring over this, but we'll show the jurors, but the cup also could have dropped, fallen, been placed down. We don't know, true?
Amanda Carter (02:47:08):
True.
Brian Steel (02:47:09):
I'd like to show you the cup, and I'm going to ask you some questions. I don't believe it would be in your purview to do it, but I'm going to ask you the question, then you tell us whose job it was to order this done, okay?
Amanda Carter (02:47:20):
Okay.
Brian Steel (02:47:34):
I'm going to ask Ms. Dinnerstein to just pull out everything from that room, all the photos so I don't waste time.
Amanda Carter (02:47:44):
Okay.
Brian Steel (02:47:51):
And then I'll come back to those questions, okay?
Amanda Carter (02:47:52):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:47:57):
All right. So let's talk about March 5th of 2020. I've just accelerated about 100 days, just over 100 days. Were you on that scene photographing when law enforcement was there at Ms. Boles and Mr. Akers' home? That would be somebody else?
Amanda Carter (02:48:14):
Correct.
Brian Steel (02:48:15):
All right. I'm not going to ask you any of those questions then. Did you ever listen to the 911 call?
Amanda Carter (02:48:24):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (02:48:27):
That's something that's typically... And if you don't know, just say that, I'm not on investigation side, that's typically preserved and gotten by law enforcement in a case, true?
Amanda Carter (02:48:35):
If necessary, yes.
Brian Steel (02:48:36):
Okay. And again, that would be some officer who's doing the investigation to determine what-
Amanda Carter (02:48:41):
That would be the detective's determination.
Brian Steel (02:48:44):
And in this case, the lead detective changed, but it was at one time Detective Ogden?
Amanda Carter (02:48:48):
I'm not aware of the change. I know originally it was Detective Ogden.
Brian Steel (02:48:53):
Okay. Now, you were asked some questions by the prosecutor about whether... The blood on the gun, do you remember that?
Amanda Carter (02:49:06):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:49:08):
And were you aware that Ms. Boles admitted that she touched the gun?
Amanda Carter (02:49:15):
I can't say with certainty.
Brian Steel (02:49:19):
Were you told... Just think back. If you don't remember, just say, "I don't recall."
Amanda Carter (02:49:22):
I believe so, but I can't say with 100% certainty, sir.
Brian Steel (02:49:25):
Okay. And that would've came again from Detective Ogden?
Amanda Carter (02:49:28):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:49:28):
All right. And there was blood, suspected blood. I mean, we made that clear, I think, on the gun, right?
Amanda Carter (02:49:36):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:49:36):
As if somebody touched it?
Amanda Carter (02:49:38):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:49:38):
Who was a source of blood, right?
Amanda Carter (02:49:40):
Yes.
Brian Steel (02:49:41):
And that means that either, and I'm just using Ms. Boles' name now, that means that either Ms. Boles is bleeding herself, right?
Amanda Carter (02:49:48):
Correct.
Brian Steel (02:49:48):
Or she touched something that's bloody and then it's a transfer?
Amanda Carter (02:49:52):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:49:53):
It's just like if I put my hand in wet paint and then I put my hand on my suit coat, I may-
Amanda Carter (02:50:00):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:50:00):
... transfer... I never came in contact on my suit coat with the paint in the can, but I transferred onto my arm with my right hand.
Amanda Carter (02:50:09):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:50:10):
Right? And the fact that the blood was on the gun would corroborate, meaning it would support that Ms. Boles touched the gun if she was the source of the blood that touched the gun, true?
Amanda Carter (02:50:27):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:50:28):
If other people would've touched the gun with bloody hands, obviously it may be someone else, right?
Amanda Carter (02:50:34):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:50:36):
And the gun, certain parts are rigid, you said, with the prosecutor. Other parts are smooth, correct?
Amanda Carter (02:50:45):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:50:46):
And if wanted, if the lead detective wanted, somebody can try to gain fingerprints off the gun. Is that true?
Amanda Carter (02:50:54):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:50:54):
And the fingerprints can also potentially go in the trigger guard area where the trigger is, right?
Amanda Carter (02:51:01):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:51:02):
Okay. And that's not your call, that's the lead detective's call?
Amanda Carter (02:51:04):
Correct.
Brian Steel (02:51:08):
I want to talk to you about, and I'd like to put on some gloves with the court's permission, which I don't have. Can I borrow some of your gloves?
Amanda Carter (02:51:15):
Yeah. They're not mine.
Brian Steel (02:51:16):
Can I wear some of your gloves? Your Honor, may I approach? And I'm going to look at, with your permission, State's Exhibit 170 and 170A as in Elisa, which should be the firearm in evidence. Okay?
Amanda Carter (02:51:32):
Okay.
Brian Steel (02:51:33):
And if you... I will not ask you to put on a glove, but if you need to, if you need to touch it, would you please just tell the court and the court's permission you can handle?-
Amanda Carter (02:51:43):
Yes, sir. Of course.
Brian Steel (02:51:45):
And the weapon's been made safe.
Amanda Carter (02:51:47):
Yes, sir.
Judge (02:51:47):
Go ahead.
Brian Steel (02:52:31):
So I am touching and holding and it is clearly not engaged, true?
Amanda Carter (02:52:36):
True.
Brian Steel (02:52:37):
Okay. I'm still not going to point at anyone, but I mean the cylinder's out of the [inaudible 02:52:41]-
Amanda Carter (02:52:41):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:52:44):
Okay. Also, it's obvious, but this is a safety metric.
Amanda Carter (02:52:51):
It is.
Brian Steel (02:52:51):
It's a lock.
Amanda Carter (02:52:51):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:52:51):
And it goes through the-
Amanda Carter (02:52:54):
Through the cylinder or through the barrel.
Brian Steel (02:52:57):
The muzzle of the gun?
Amanda Carter (02:52:57):
Yes.
Brian Steel (02:52:57):
The barrel of the gun and the muzzle of the gun?
Amanda Carter (02:52:59):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:53:00):
And that's just, we are taking gun very seriously.
Amanda Carter (02:53:05):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:53:06):
I do want to ask you though, and if you need to touch it, you do it, but do you notice this item I'm pointing to? You know what it's called?
Amanda Carter (02:53:16):
I don't know what it's called.
Brian Steel (02:53:19):
Well, let's call it a rod.
Amanda Carter (02:53:21):
Okay.
Brian Steel (02:53:21):
Is that fair? And you see what I'm pointing to? So just for the record, Your Honor, and I hope the jurors can see it with the court's permission. Thank you. This is something that's coming from... Do you know what this is called, a cylinder?
Amanda Carter (02:53:35):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:53:37):
Okay. And a revolver when the trigger, which is here, right?
Amanda Carter (02:53:39):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:53:40):
And when the trigger's pulled, the hammer can be cocked back or gun forward and then that strike ignites the projectile that comes through.
Amanda Carter (02:53:50):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:53:51):
And exits the end of the gun or through the barrel, true?
Amanda Carter (02:53:56):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:54:00):
If the gun was to work to fire, this cylinder has to be engaged into the gun itself, true?
Amanda Carter (02:54:07):
It does.
Brian Steel (02:54:08):
And that would make, and I'm going to ask you to show the jurors with the court's permission, that would make this cylinder almost equal distant with the very end of this gun. Is that true? And I'm going to let you see it.
Amanda Carter (02:54:22):
I believe it would be pretty close. Yes.
Brian Steel (02:54:23):
May I approach you?
Amanda Carter (02:54:24):
Sure.
Brian Steel (02:54:25):
Your Honor, may I?
Amanda Carter (02:54:31):
Yes, sir. It would be almost equal.
Brian Steel (02:54:33):
And I can't really 100% put it down because, but does that look almost identical?
Amanda Carter (02:54:39):
Yes, it does.
Brian Steel (02:54:39):
Can you just show the jurors with the court's permission to come in front of the jury?
Amanda Carter (02:54:44):
Show them?
Brian Steel (02:54:45):
The distance, if it's engaged properly, explain it.
Amanda Carter (02:54:49):
Sure.
Brian Steel (02:54:50):
[inaudible 02:54:51]. May we approach the jury [inaudible 02:54:54]?
Judge (02:54:53):
Yes.
Brian Steel (02:54:56):
And I think you can just...
Brian Steel (02:55:06):
We'll do it in sections. We'll do the first section and then we'll do it the second section.
Amanda Carter (02:55:06):
Do you want me to hold it or do you?
Brian Steel (02:55:24):
It's up to you, but yes, that'd be great. Thank you for doing this. If you just make sure that everyone gets seated and then we'll do it a second time.
Amanda Carter (02:55:25):
[inaudible 02:55:35].
Brian Steel (02:55:25):
The voiceover.
Amanda Carter (02:55:35):
I'm sorry. This is the cylinder. This is the barrel and this is the part of the rod that he is talking about.
Brian Steel (02:55:47):
And what you do now, just for the record, you put the firearm that's disengaged, you put it down on the jury rail and you're saying that they're almost, I'm not asking identical, but they're almost, they come to the same floor?
Amanda Carter (02:56:02):
Almost. Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:56:04):
And can you describe to the jurors the shape of the rod, the end of the rod that comes out of the very muzzle?
Amanda Carter (02:56:10):
It's circular ground.
Brian Steel (02:56:14):
Can you just hold it up to the camera so you can see? And I'm just going to point you, can I move closer to you? Is that okay?
Amanda Carter (02:56:15):
Mm-hmm.
Brian Steel (02:56:22):
I want to focus on [inaudible 02:56:25].
Amanda Carter (02:56:24):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (02:56:30):
[inaudible 02:56:31] Can you do the same thing over there? Thank you so much. Now without the safety here, if I had this gun pointed at me with my left hand, I'm pointing it at me, disengaged with my left hand. This cylinder and the muzzle of the gun, muzzled gun is the end of the gun. Is that fair to say?
Amanda Carter (02:57:19):
It's the barrel, yes.
Brian Steel (02:57:19):
The very end of the projectile comes down? Sorry. If I had it pointed like this, if then somebody tried to grab me to stop me from God forbid committing suicide and I went backwards and I turned it upside down, this rod you were calling, the round piece?
Amanda Carter (02:57:46):
Yes sir.
Brian Steel (02:57:46):
If it went into my nose would be striking my nose back here. If that, you could do different ways, but it's all true, right?
Amanda Carter (02:57:57):
I can't say with certainty, but possibly.
Brian Steel (02:57:59):
If my finger was on the trigger and I was falling backwards and I had the gun like this, would the gun have still fired even though I have it upside down?
Amanda Carter (02:58:04):
Yes.
Brian Steel (02:58:11):
Have you ever seen any autopsy photographs where there is an abrasion to the right nostril of the deceased?
Amanda Carter (02:58:19):
No sir.
Brian Steel (02:58:20):
No one included you in that?
Amanda Carter (02:58:22):
No sir.
Brian Steel (02:58:23):
Did anyone even talk to you about that like it's an interesting concept?
Amanda Carter (02:58:24):
No sir.
Brian Steel (02:58:28):
I'm going to put this down.
Amanda Carter (02:58:28):
Yes sir.
Brian Steel (02:58:31):
Do you know whether anyone tested to see whose DNA is on this trigger pull?
Amanda Carter (02:58:37):
I don't know what testing was done. I know there's a sticker from GDI on there, but I can't advise what testing was done.
Brian Steel (02:58:42):
So you don't know why it wasn't done or if it was done?
Amanda Carter (02:58:45):
I don't know.
Brian Steel (02:58:45):
That's beyond you.
Amanda Carter (02:58:45):
Yes sir.
Brian Steel (02:58:49):
I'm putting it right back.
Amanda Carter (02:58:50):
Yes sir.
Brian Steel (02:59:06):
I want to talk with you about the McDonald's cup. I assume that they're seen. I'm going to show you a series of photographs. These don't have the glare that the other pictures have, so a lot of them repeat. Some of them may be new though, okay?
Amanda Carter (02:59:41):
Yes sir.
Brian Steel (02:59:41):
Some of them are graphic.
Amanda Carter (02:59:43):
Yes sir.
Brian Steel (02:59:46):
Okay. Do you have the... Your Honor, may I have a moment?
Judge (03:00:02):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:01:37):
[inaudible 03:00:19] I apologize Your Honor.
Speaker 8 (03:01:37):
Need water or anything?
Amanda Carter (03:01:37):
I have water. Thank you sir.
Brian Steel (03:03:38):
Okay. [inaudible 03:03:27] Your Honor, may I approach?
Judge (03:03:42):
Yes.
Brian Steel (03:03:42):
May I approach you?
Amanda Carter (03:03:43):
Yes sir.
Brian Steel (03:03:44):
Ms. Carter, crime scene technician Carter, can you look at these and whatever you look at, just announce what exhibit number.
Amanda Carter (03:03:53):
Okay.
Brian Steel (03:03:53):
I'm taking these back, the ones you couldn't identify.
Amanda Carter (03:03:56):
Yes sir.
Brian Steel (03:03:56):
And tell me whether you recognize the exhibit numbers. If you don't recognize any, just say that as well.
Amanda Carter (03:04:05):
I recognize Exhibit 60.
Brian Steel (03:04:09):
And it's going to be the same question to everything. Is it true and accurate based upon your memory and best knowledge of what you depicted at the time of taking the photograph?
Amanda Carter (03:04:18):
Yes sir, it is.
Brian Steel (03:04:20):
And then that'll be the same question for all of you. You can just say same answer or different answer.
Amanda Carter (03:04:27):
Exhibit 57, same answer. Exhibit 40, same answer. Exhibit 39, I have not reviewed this photograph.
Brian Steel (03:05:01):
You can do it over the break if that's what you need to do.
Amanda Carter (03:05:04):
Yes, sir. Exhibit 36, same answer. Exhibit 24, same answer. Exhibit 21, same answer. Exhibit 17, same answer. And Exhibit 16, same answer.
Brian Steel (03:05:41):
May I approach, Your Honor?
Judge (03:05:41):
You may.
Brian Steel (03:05:42):
I would like to move for the admission of, and I can announce them, but the ones that were recognized by Ms. Carter, except I am not moving at this time for exhibit number...
Amanda Carter (03:05:57):
30.
Brian Steel (03:05:58):
Thank you.
Judge (03:06:00):
Any objection?
Speaker 9 (03:06:01):
No, Your Honor.
Judge (03:06:03):
Those are admitted.
Brian Steel (03:06:07):
May I approach you?
Judge (03:06:08):
Of course.
Brian Steel (03:06:25):
Someone can just announce which one.
Speaker 8 (03:06:27):
16.
Brian Steel (03:06:31):
On the court's screen is Ms. Boles number 16 admitted into evidence. The Honorable Court allowed us to display since it's in evidence. And can you, if you don't mind, zoom in on, do you see the cup in the picture?
Amanda Carter (03:06:49):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:06:49):
Can you zoom in as best you can to that cup area? And Sheriff, is there any way to dim a light with the court's permission? Your Honor, is that okay?
Judge (03:07:00):
It is.
Brian Steel (03:07:01):
Thank you. Now I know that as you zoom in, sometimes it gets blurry-
Amanda Carter (03:07:12):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:07:13):
... so it may not be great, but as best we can. You see, and if we need to zoom out, please tell us, but this is what we're calling the McDonald's cup. Is that true?
Amanda Carter (03:07:27):
It appears to be.
Brian Steel (03:07:29):
I couldn't hear you. I could not hear you.
Amanda Carter (03:07:31):
It appears to be.
Brian Steel (03:07:32):
Do you want a different photograph to orient yourself?
Amanda Carter (03:07:34):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:07:35):
Can you try a different one and just announce which one it is, if you don't mind?
Speaker 8 (03:07:43):
16.
Brian Steel (03:07:44):
Ms. Boles, number 16, it's already been admitted to evidence. Does that give you a better perspective?
Amanda Carter (03:07:55):
Yes, sir. It is in fact a McDonald's cup.
Brian Steel (03:07:57):
Okay. So we'll just use this one since it's here, okay?
Amanda Carter (03:07:59):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:08:00):
Now, by the time you took the photograph, it's your memory and note-taking and testimony that there's no hard ice. I guess ice is always hard, so there's no ice?
Amanda Carter (03:08:12):
Correct.
Brian Steel (03:08:12):
Okay. And I'm not asking you to go by anyone else's testimony, but if there was ice, it had melted by the time you took this photograph?
Amanda Carter (03:08:22):
Correct.
Brian Steel (03:08:22):
Or by the time you saw the image?
Amanda Carter (03:08:25):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:08:26):
Okay. And this cup, I know it's not preserved, but do you see any defects in the cup? Like it has any indentation anywhere around the opening or on the sides that we have the photograph?
Amanda Carter (03:08:49):
Not that are visible in that photograph.
Brian Steel (03:08:51):
And it's interesting because I'm assuming that if you would've seen a defect in the cup, like it had fallen and made a mark, the bottom crushes in or the side crushes in, that would've been something you would've photographed or maybe even taken the cup. Is that true?
Amanda Carter (03:09:07):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:09:07):
So based upon your work, experience, training, and what you did here, the cup is as it appears, there was no damage to the cup, true?
Amanda Carter (03:09:16):
True.
Brian Steel (03:09:17):
And then it looks to me, I am not telling you, go by me because I'm always wrong, but does that look like there may be some sort of remnants of liquid inside the cup? Is that fair to say? And if it's not, just say, "I don't know. It could be a shadow." I don't want to...
Amanda Carter (03:09:33):
There appears to still be some liquid in the cup.
Brian Steel (03:09:35):
And we're talking about right there?
Amanda Carter (03:09:38):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:09:39):
And you don't know what the substance would've been, do you?
Amanda Carter (03:09:44):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (03:09:45):
I mean, it could have been lemonade to Coca-Cola to water.
Amanda Carter (03:09:48):
I don't know.
Brian Steel (03:09:48):
Right. All right. If you can announce the cup that you had, the picture that you had up before, what number that is?
Speaker 8 (03:09:56):
16.
Brian Steel (03:09:57):
Thank you, sir. And would you zoom in again the way you did? So just now we're better oriented. Is that fair to say?
Amanda Carter (03:10:06):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:10:07):
And the bottom of the cup, same thing, there's no defect, demarcation, anything like that?
Amanda Carter (03:10:13):
Not that I can see. No, sir.
Brian Steel (03:10:15):
Right. And not that you remember?
Amanda Carter (03:10:16):
Correct.
Brian Steel (03:10:17):
And if there was, maybe you would've... Well, I shouldn't say maybe. You would've noted that, true?
Amanda Carter (03:10:24):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:10:24):
So based upon what you do, there was nothing wrong with that cup. And when I say nothing wrong, no defect with the cup, right?
Amanda Carter (03:10:29):
Correct.
Brian Steel (03:10:30):
And it was just somehow on its side when you got it, true?
Amanda Carter (03:10:35):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:10:36):
And then can you put up another one and announce which exhibit we're talking about?
Speaker 8 (03:10:43):
24.
Brian Steel (03:10:53):
And you take pictures for different reasons, but the cup just happens to be in this picture, true?
Amanda Carter (03:11:00):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:11:01):
And it appears, I am not saying it is, but it appears that there may be some sort of darker substance on this carpeted area or this surface versus over here? Does that look like-
Amanda Carter (03:11:13):
I did note in my report that there appeared to be liquid on the floor in the area of the cup.
Brian Steel (03:11:17):
And since we fly logic, potentially the cup had some liquid in it?
Amanda Carter (03:11:22):
Yes.
Brian Steel (03:11:22):
The cup was somehow turned over or toppled and the liquid comes out of the cup because the top is no longer on it?
Amanda Carter (03:11:29):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:11:30):
And you don't know if that cup was placed on the ground before it toppled over, do you?
Amanda Carter (03:11:38):
I can only tell you what I observed when I arrived.
Brian Steel (03:11:39):
Right. And the answer to my question is you don't know how the cup got-
Amanda Carter (03:11:42):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (03:11:43):
You don't know?
Amanda Carter (03:11:44):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (03:11:44):
It could have been pretending, pretending this is the cup. It could have been that someone, whomever, put the cup down and later somebody else somehow intentionally or unintentionally knocked it over somehow, true?
Amanda Carter (03:11:58):
True.
Brian Steel (03:11:59):
Now, were you ever asked to be part of an experiment to use that cup or a similar cup, go to McDonald's, same McDonald's, get that same size cup, put some sort of liquid in it with some ice, would that surface and drop the cup and determine whether the cup would be dented?
Amanda Carter (03:12:23):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (03:12:23):
That was never even discussed?
Amanda Carter (03:12:24):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (03:12:26):
Okay. Can you put the next one and announce what it is?
Speaker 8 (03:12:28):
21.
Brian Steel (03:12:35):
This is the McDonald's bag that is laying to the left side of Mr. Akers, fair?
Speaker 8 (03:12:46):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:12:47):
And you noted this appears to be a left-hand print. Is that true?
Amanda Carter (03:12:56):
I didn't specify which hand, but I did note that it appeared to be a bloody hand print.
Brian Steel (03:13:04):
Okay. You see the fingers one, two, three, four? You see that?
Amanda Carter (03:13:09):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:13:10):
Okay. And then this part also... And just to be because we have to be clear, we're talking about lives here, right?
Amanda Carter (03:13:17):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:13:20):
We believe this to be blood. We're assuming it's blood, right?
Amanda Carter (03:13:23):
It appears to be.
Brian Steel (03:13:24):
And it could be tested to determine if it's blood, right?
Amanda Carter (03:13:28):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:13:29):
And it could be then tested to determine possibly whose blood it is, right?
Amanda Carter (03:13:33):
There was never any question, based on the investigative details I provided, whose blood was anywhere in the residence or how it got there.
Brian Steel (03:13:42):
Good, because the only person that is a source of blood is Mr. Akers, true?
Amanda Carter (03:13:46):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:13:46):
And Ms. Boles, to your knowledge, no injuries, right?
Amanda Carter (03:13:51):
I didn't see her. None that I was advised of.
Brian Steel (03:13:55):
Okay. And when I say injuries, I should be more specific. I'm not saying bruising. I'm saying blood, a source of blood, not that you were advised of?
Amanda Carter (03:14:00):
Not that I was advised of.
Brian Steel (03:14:04):
Okay. Now, this bag, the McDonald's bag, had content?
Amanda Carter (03:14:07):
It did.
Brian Steel (03:14:08):
And you discussed that. Go ahead.
Amanda Carter (03:14:12):
It appeared to be an uneaten meal. I believe there was an additional photograph of the contents of the bag.
Brian Steel (03:14:19):
Yeah. Your Honor, may I approach? May I approach you?
Amanda Carter (03:14:35):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:14:36):
I don't think I showed you these. May I approach you?
Amanda Carter (03:14:47):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:14:49):
Just tell us and announce what exhibit number, whether you recognize the exhibit.
Amanda Carter (03:14:58):
Exhibit 57, yes. Exhibit 40, yes. And Exhibit 36, yes.
Brian Steel (03:15:05):
And do they accurately depict what you saw on or around the 22nd day of December 2019?
Amanda Carter (03:15:11):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:15:12):
Your Honor, I move for the admission of those exhibits that were just read into the record by Ms. Carter.
Judge (03:15:18):
Any objection?
Speaker 9 (03:15:19):
No, Your Honor.
Judge (03:15:20):
Okay. Those are admitted.
Brian Steel (03:15:23):
May I approach?
Amanda Carter (03:15:24):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:15:31):
May I approach, Your Honor?
Judge (03:15:31):
Yes, sir.
Amanda Carter (03:15:31):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:15:31):
May I approach you, sir? Can you display and announce which one you're displaying? Which exhibit?
Speaker 8 (03:15:40):
36.
Brian Steel (03:15:41):
Okay. And this is what you were just talking about, that there's content inside the bag, right?
Amanda Carter (03:15:48):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:15:50):
Okay. And we see in this picture specifically that it appears to be a French fry, and do you know what that is right there?
Amanda Carter (03:16:02):
A ketchup packet.
Brian Steel (03:16:04):
And underneath it, if anything?
Amanda Carter (03:16:08):
Possibly an additional ketchup packet. I can't say for sure until the contents are removed.
Brian Steel (03:16:13):
Okay. And then the next one, if you don't mind.
Speaker 8 (03:16:15):
40.
Brian Steel (03:16:30):
Same bag, different angle of the photograph?
Amanda Carter (03:16:32):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:16:34):
And if somebody pressed their hand, left or right, whatever, I know you said you weren't sure which one, but to the bottom of this bag, that would force content to come towards the top of the bag. Is that true?
Amanda Carter (03:16:51):
It would either squish the contents or force it to come to the top.
Brian Steel (03:16:54):
Squish?
Amanda Carter (03:16:55):
Yes.
Brian Steel (03:16:57):
And the next one, if you don't mind.
Speaker 8 (03:17:04):
57.
Brian Steel (03:17:05):
And this has a quarter pounder with cheese written on it. Do you see that?
Amanda Carter (03:17:12):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:17:13):
And it looks like the box, I guess, the carton, I guess, is a little bit open and there's food here with a napkin underneath. Is that all true?
Amanda Carter (03:17:25):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:17:26):
And it's still around the McDonald's bag, but it's protruding outside, right?
Amanda Carter (03:17:29):
I believe that was a later picture that we took showing part of the contents.
Brian Steel (03:17:37):
And I was going to say, it's been moved, the bag.
Amanda Carter (03:17:37):
Yes. At that point, I believe it had been moved.
Brian Steel (03:17:38):
If you can zoom out of it, if you don't mind, investigator. This is actually... Can you zoom out anymore or no? Okay. I though there was more content. This is actually not next to the deceased body where it was taken, true?
Amanda Carter (03:18:05):
True.
Brian Steel (03:18:07):
Okay. And just for the jurors, no one's trying to mislead anybody. Eventually, you have to see what the content is.
Amanda Carter (03:18:14):
Yes.
Brian Steel (03:18:14):
So that's why you take the first pictures of where you originally found it, then somebody picked up the bag and separated the content a little bit, at least, just to show what you inside?
Amanda Carter (03:18:23):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:18:27):
Okay. Now, the bag, and thank you very much, that is originally the way you saw it next to the deceased?
Amanda Carter (03:18:33):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:18:37):
You don't know how that bag got on the ground, do you?
Amanda Carter (03:18:39):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (03:18:39):
You don't know if it was placed on the ground, do you?
Amanda Carter (03:18:41):
I can't say with any certainty.
Brian Steel (03:18:43):
You don't know if it fell from a hand?
Amanda Carter (03:18:46):
I don't know, sir.
Brian Steel (03:18:47):
Right. You just know what you saw?
Amanda Carter (03:18:50):
Correct.
Brian Steel (03:18:51):
And you're not saying to this jury that that bag wasn't already on the floor before the deceased was shot. You're not saying that?
Amanda Carter (03:18:57):
No, sir. I'm not.
Brian Steel (03:18:58):
And you're not saying that the bag was dropped?
Amanda Carter (03:19:00):
No, sir. I'm not.
Brian Steel (03:19:01):
We just don't know.
Amanda Carter (03:19:01):
I don't know.
Brian Steel (03:19:04):
Okay. We deal in fact.
Amanda Carter (03:19:05):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:19:06):
Okay. All right. Do you have the next exhibit?
Speaker 8 (03:19:15):
17.
Brian Steel (03:19:19):
The hat, you see the hat in Ms. Boles number 17?
Amanda Carter (03:19:25):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:19:26):
And that's I would call it like a, I just call it a baseball hat. Is that fair to say?
Amanda Carter (03:19:30):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:19:31):
And do you know whether that hat had any blood on it?
Amanda Carter (03:19:41):
Not that I observed.
Brian Steel (03:19:42):
Right. Because if it did have any blood, you would've zoomed in, taken a closeup of the hat with blood, right?
Amanda Carter (03:19:48):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:19:49):
So potentially that hat was not on... The face area is pretty bloody, right?
Amanda Carter (03:19:56):
Yes, it is.
Brian Steel (03:19:56):
Okay. And I'm not asking you to guess, just say, "I don't know." But there's a possibility that that hat was already on the ground before the gun was fired?
Amanda Carter (03:20:05):
That I don't know.
Brian Steel (03:20:07):
You don't want to go there?
Amanda Carter (03:20:07):
No.
Brian Steel (03:20:07):
Okay. No, that's good. That's good. And you don't know how long that hat was on the floor, do you?
Amanda Carter (03:20:14):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (03:20:14):
You don't know if it was thrown there or placed or just walk in a room and throw your keys and hat down? You don't know?
Amanda Carter (03:20:19):
No, sir. I can only say it was there when I walked in.
Brian Steel (03:20:22):
And you're not saying that it got to that area during the time of the fatal wound, you don't know?
Amanda Carter (03:20:28):
I don't know.
Brian Steel (03:20:29):
It could have been in that area before the gun was even produced?
Amanda Carter (03:20:34):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:20:36):
Okay. This item right here, do you remember what this is?
Amanda Carter (03:20:47):
No, sir. I can't say with certainty from that picture.
Brian Steel (03:20:49):
Okay. Well, we'll come back to other pictures.
Amanda Carter (03:20:51):
Okay.
Brian Steel (03:20:52):
Let's go to the top. You see the top of the McDonald's cup? I'm calling it McDonald's cup, is that correct?
Amanda Carter (03:20:58):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:20:59):
Okay. Can you zoom in on that, if you don't mind? This is Ms. Boles 17. See the top of the, what I'll call the top of the cup, plastic covering, I guess?
Amanda Carter (03:21:48):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:21:50):
And it has a straw, correct?
Amanda Carter (03:21:51):
Correct.
Brian Steel (03:21:52):
And there may be a substance, and if you don't know, just say, "I don't want to speak on that." Does this look like there may be a substance inside the area of the lid of the cups?
Amanda Carter (03:22:08):
As far as on the lid, I don't know, sir.
Brian Steel (03:22:10):
We don't know. Okay. That's fine. And again, if you would've seen any damage to the top side or blood on it, you would've made note of that, maybe even collected it?
Amanda Carter (03:22:18):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:22:19):
Maybe even collected it, fair to say?
Amanda Carter (03:22:20):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:22:23):
Okay. With regards to the liquid, and if you don't know, just say, "I don't know." But the discoloration, is that caused from your touch, from your observation from being there, do you see a discoloration between, let's say, the area I'm pointing to on Ms. Boles number 17? Is that right? The number? Investigator, is that-
Speaker 8 (03:22:52):
Yes. 17.
Brian Steel (03:22:53):
You see over here, it looks lighter than over here. And I understand the shadows. Do you know if this is caused by witness, or if you don't know, just say, "I don't know."
Amanda Carter (03:23:03):
I don't know with certainty.
Brian Steel (03:23:10):
Okay. All right. Thank you very much, sir. I want to go to the bathroom sink.
Amanda Carter (03:23:16):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:23:17):
If I may. That's the state exhibit number. Let me go get that. Was Ms. Boles in the house when you were in the house?
Amanda Carter (03:23:30):
No, sir.
Judge (03:23:51):
We'll go until about 12:30 and then break for lunch, okay?
Brian Steel (03:23:55):
I'm going to ask the question that this way I could be organized and not waste. I will come back to the bathroom sink.
Amanda Carter (03:24:03):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:24:03):
I just want to find the exhibit so I don't sit here and waste time.
Amanda Carter (03:24:06):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:24:07):
All right. I want to talk to you about Ms. Boles, and I misunderstood. You were told that she was vomiting in the living room area?
Amanda Carter (03:24:19):
Correct.
Brian Steel (03:24:20):
Okay. But you didn't hear it and you didn't see it?
Amanda Carter (03:24:23):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (03:24:24):
With regards to Ms. Boles, I'm not trying to insult her at all, but she could be evidence, value of evidence as well physically, right?
Amanda Carter (03:24:36):
What do you mean by that, sir?
Brian Steel (03:24:37):
Clothing. Her clothing may be important to collect.
Amanda Carter (03:24:41):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:24:42):
And this is something that we do, well, I don't do, but you do, and law enforcement all the time, you try to collect people's clothing because it can tell the story that we're talking about. That's why we're all here.
Amanda Carter (03:24:53):
Yes sir.
Brian Steel (03:24:54):
And Ms. Boles was clearly in the house with law enforcement before you arrived.
Amanda Carter (03:25:00):
Yes.
Brian Steel (03:25:01):
And you know that for certain because you were told that, right?
Amanda Carter (03:25:03):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:25:06):
And no one ever told you or asked you, I don't mean told, asked you to photograph her clothing, did they?
Amanda Carter (03:25:14):
I was never anywhere near her, so I would've been unable to photograph her clothing.
Brian Steel (03:25:20):
Well, let me ask you two series of questions to follow that up, okay?
Amanda Carter (03:25:23):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:25:23):
Understanding you weren't in the home when Ms. Boles was in the home, right?
Amanda Carter (03:25:27):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:25:27):
I got that. But it's not like Detective Ogden or someone else asked you to say, "Hey, Ms. Boles was taken..." You know she's taken to the hospital, right?
Amanda Carter (03:25:37):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:25:38):
"She was taken to the hospital, but we had her change before taken to the hospital. So her clothing is in the Gage, the young son's bedroom." No one asked you to do that?
Amanda Carter (03:25:49):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (03:25:51):
And that could be done, right? People can ask people to change to collect evidence, right?
Amanda Carter (03:25:56):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:25:57):
That's done all the time because sometimes even the clothing has to be taken because the clothing shows a story, right?
Amanda Carter (03:26:03):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:26:04):
And at the hospital, Ms. Boles is with law enforcement before taken to the hospital, you know that?
Amanda Carter (03:26:11):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:26:11):
And at the hospital, somebody could have had Ms. Boles, brought a change of clothing from the house and had her change and collect her clothing and then ask you later to photograph it, true?
Amanda Carter (03:26:23):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:26:24):
Was that done?
Amanda Carter (03:26:24):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (03:26:30):
Ms. Boles' face?
Amanda Carter (03:26:30):
Her? I'm sorry?
Brian Steel (03:26:31):
Face.
Amanda Carter (03:26:36):
Face? Okay.
Brian Steel (03:26:37):
That's a pretty bloody scene. I don't mean it's all over the walls. I'm confident you've seen much worse, but there's a lot of blood on Mr. Akers' face.
Amanda Carter (03:26:49):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:26:50):
He was pouring out blood. Is that tragically true?
Amanda Carter (03:26:54):
He had a lot of blood on him. Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:26:55):
I mean, it's like clumps of blood in certain areas, right?
Amanda Carter (03:27:00):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:27:07):
Did anyone ask you to photograph Ms. Boles' purse in her face to see if there was any blood in her hair or face? Did anyone do that?
Amanda Carter (03:27:18):
No, sir. Again, I never saw her. She was at the hospital already.
Brian Steel (03:27:22):
My question's the other side, because I understand that, but did anyone ask you to?
Amanda Carter (03:27:26):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (03:27:27):
You would've done that, wouldn't you?
Amanda Carter (03:27:29):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:27:30):
And did anyone ask you to photograph Ms. Boles' arms, hands, legs, feet to determine what happened here?
Amanda Carter (03:27:42):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (03:27:44):
And if Ms. Boles tried to take the gun out of Mr. Akers' hand and the gun, God forbid, went off, and Mr. Akers starts bleeding and Ms. Boles fell on top of Mr. Akers because when he took the fatal bullet, that might be able to tell a story if that's true or not, her clothing, her appearance, all true?
Amanda Carter (03:28:03):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:28:04):
In addition, if Ms. Boles would've done chest compressions on Mr. Akers after the gunshot, God forbid, entered his body, that may tell a story, right?
Amanda Carter (03:28:20):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:28:21):
And you were particular to ensure, I noticed that you photographed Mr. Akers as well as his clothing, true?
Amanda Carter (03:28:30):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:28:31):
And you also knew that the coroner, you were not leaving that location until your photographs of Mr. Akers was complete, true?
Amanda Carter (03:28:42):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:28:43):
And you made the coroner, I don't mean rudely, but you made the coroner wait for your job to be done, true?
Amanda Carter (03:28:48):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:28:49):
And you didn't move and didn't give authority for the detectives to move Mr. Akers until you finished imaging, picturing him the way he was found laying down, right?
Amanda Carter (03:29:01):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:29:01):
Because all that blood on his clothing and his face and his beard and mustache, God forbid, his hair, that all tells a story, right?
Amanda Carter (03:29:10):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:29:10):
And when I say tell a story, I mean, tell the truth, right?
Amanda Carter (03:29:13):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:29:14):
It's evidence that can be tested in 2019 and 2026 to say this happened because look at this, right?
Amanda Carter (03:29:24):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:29:25):
I mean, direction of blood tells a story. I know you're not a blood expert, but direction of blood tells a story, right?
Amanda Carter (03:29:30):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:29:31):
And like you see on the McDonald's bag, if Ms. Boles was compressing the chest of Mr. Akers, there may be evidence that her hand print is actually on his shirt or his sweatshirt, true?
Amanda Carter (03:29:45):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:29:46):
And that's what you did. That's why you said, "I need to do this," right?
Amanda Carter (03:29:50):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:29:52):
And then when you did allow the coroner to take Mr. Akers in a body bag or disaster bag, that's what it's called, right?
Amanda Carter (03:30:02):
A body bag.
Brian Steel (03:30:00):
... bag or disaster bag, that's what it's called, right?
Amanda Carter (03:30:02):
A body bag. Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:30:05):
It's a total disaster, but a body bag. You ensured that all the clothing and the contents of that clothing, I heard you say anything in his pockets, even if you took a picture of it, it goes along to the medical examiner, right?
Amanda Carter (03:30:21):
The personal effects are usually provided to the coroner, I can't advise if she provides them to the medical examiner or not, I just know our practice was to provide them to the coroner, anything that was in the pockets with the exception of the cell phone.
Brian Steel (03:30:36):
Do you know whether the coroner brings, transports Mr. Akers to the medical examiner's office? And if you don't know, just say I don't know.
Amanda Carter (03:30:46):
Sometimes she would directly transport or other times there would be a transport company that was arranged.
Brian Steel (03:30:53):
Okay. All right. Whose job is it detailed? I'm not asking you to beat up anybody, I'm just asking whose detail is it to say, "I need photographs of Lacy Boles," the way she appeared in that house?
Amanda Carter (03:31:12):
Usually the lead detective will request that.
Brian Steel (03:31:15):
And even if you're not on the scene when Ms. Boles was there, do law enforcement officers, if you know, have cell phones where they can video or photograph? I know they're not you, but do they have that capability on December 22nd, 2019?
Amanda Carter (03:31:29):
Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:31:33):
Whose job was it to preserve Lacy Boles' clothing that she was wearing that night, or that morning, I guess?
Amanda Carter (03:31:41):
I don't even know how to answer that. She was already at the emergency room when I had arrived, or had already been transported when I had arrived, and I was never requested to go there.
Brian Steel (03:31:53):
I'm not asking you. I know you would've done it, you already said if you were requested, you would've gone, true?
Amanda Carter (03:31:58):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:31:59):
I'm saying whose job responsibility was it to collect Lacy Boles' clothing if-
Speaker 10 (03:32:03):
Asked and answered.
Brian Steel (03:32:05):
... if it needed to be collected.
Amanda Carter (03:32:07):
Usually-
Judge (03:32:09):
[inaudible 03:32:09] rule on that. I think she answered it, I think the answer was I don't know.
Brian Steel (03:32:16):
Would it be the lead detective?
Amanda Carter (03:32:19):
With her being transported, I really can't say it could be the lead detective. It could be a responding deputy, whoever supervisor deems appropriate. I don't know.
Brian Steel (03:32:28):
Okay. Okay. But somebody?
Amanda Carter (03:32:29):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:32:30):
It should have been done?
Amanda Carter (03:32:31):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:32:31):
No doubt about it?
Amanda Carter (03:32:31):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:32:34):
Because otherwise we're guessing, right?
Amanda Carter (03:32:37):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:32:37):
And we don't guess in courtrooms, do we?
Amanda Carter (03:32:39):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (03:32:46):
I want to talk with you about... It's going to take me a minute, but I want to go back to the window sill.
Amanda Carter (03:32:53):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:32:53):
And we'll show the jurors. I know that this honorable court said we have just, before lunch, a few minutes. Do you remember those photographs as you sit here now?
Amanda Carter (03:33:03):
I remember the photographs we've already reviewed, there were a couple of them.
Brian Steel (03:33:07):
Okay. I'm going to show you the photographs after the lunch break, okay? And I'll organize it. Let's talk about Ms. Boles' driver's license. Do you remember-
Amanda Carter (03:33:17):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:33:18):
... talking about that? And I believe it's state's Exhibit... May I approach the court reporter?
Judge (03:33:24):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:33:31):
Remember state's Exhibit 120?
Amanda Carter (03:33:33):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:33:33):
Already in evidence?
Amanda Carter (03:33:34):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:33:35):
Your Honor, may I give it to the investigator? Would you mind just... Now, did you put, and when I say you, I'm talking about you personally, did you move the driver's license before taking the picture? And I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I'm just saying, did you do it just to orient the picture or was it found exactly where you took the picture?
Amanda Carter (03:33:56):
No, sir, it was found there.
Brian Steel (03:33:58):
Okay. And this is Ms. Boles, right?
Amanda Carter (03:34:02):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:34:03):
Or at least it appears to be the driver's license of Ms. Boles.
Amanda Carter (03:34:05):
It appears to be.
Brian Steel (03:34:06):
And at the time she would've been 36 years of age, does that look right? 2019, December?
Amanda Carter (03:34:14):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:34:15):
And according to this, I know it could be wrong, but she's about 5'4 tall?
Amanda Carter (03:34:21):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:34:22):
And weighed about 110 pounds, according to the license.
Amanda Carter (03:34:26):
Yes. According to the license, yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:34:27):
Yeah. Some licenses are good for 10 years or something, so people's weight may change, right?
Amanda Carter (03:34:32):
Yes.
Brian Steel (03:34:32):
But that's what it says. And the reason you found that to be important is because that window sill had some evidence on it or near it, true?
Amanda Carter (03:34:42):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:34:43):
And we're talking about the upstairs bedroom of Mr. Akers and Ms. Boles.
Amanda Carter (03:34:49):
Yes.
Brian Steel (03:34:50):
That's where you found it. And you also took... And do you see it here? Did you notice any blood around the windowsill, and up the side of it? It's a different picture. If you need to see it, I'm going to show you a different picture.
Amanda Carter (03:35:06):
Oh. From a different picture... There was DNA evidence or biological evidence on the right side of the window.
Brian Steel (03:35:15):
And how about Ms. Boles' cell phone?
Amanda Carter (03:35:18):
I did not see her cell phone, I was told from the investigation that she had gone to the bedroom to get her cell phone, but I never saw it.
Brian Steel (03:35:28):
And that's because she was already out of the house?
Amanda Carter (03:35:30):
Correct.
Brian Steel (03:35:30):
Presumably, I'm not asking you to guess, presumably someone or she may have taken the cell phone from the home?
Amanda Carter (03:35:36):
I don't know.
Brian Steel (03:35:37):
We don't. Perfect answer. Do you know whether you see the items in the exhibit on this honorable court's screen, do you know whether that's blood? Or suspected blood? Let's say that. And if you don't know, say, "I don't know."
Amanda Carter (03:35:56):
Where are you referring to?
Brian Steel (03:36:04):
Do you know what this...
Amanda Carter (03:36:06):
No, sir, I don't.
Brian Steel (03:36:08):
We're not saying that's blood, that could be just whatever, dirt for all we know, right?
Amanda Carter (03:36:13):
It didn't appear to be at the scene, but I don't know for sure.
Brian Steel (03:36:18):
And the reason why you said is because you would've taken better pictures.
Amanda Carter (03:36:21):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:36:22):
I shouldn't say better pictures, but you would've noted-
Amanda Carter (03:36:24):
Additional. Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (03:36:26):
Yes. Okay. Okay. With regards to the car of Mr. Akers that he was driving, did you examine the contents of the car or just took the outside pictures?
Amanda Carter (03:36:48):
Only the photographs that I took when I was on the scene. I was just asked to photograph the car.
Brian Steel (03:36:54):
Did you go through the glove compartment, the console, did you do that?
Amanda Carter (03:36:58):
I don't recall doing that, sir.
Brian Steel (03:36:59):
All right. Is there something that can refresh your memory?
Amanda Carter (03:37:06):
It was never included in my report, I don't recall that, sir.
Brian Steel (03:37:09):
Okay, that's fine. All right, let me...
Judge (03:37:12):
[inaudible 03:37:17].
Brian Steel (03:37:16):
Thank you, sir. Yeah, we have more. This is fine.
Judge (03:37:23):
This is fine.
Brian Steel (03:37:24):
Yes, sir.
Judge (03:37:24):
Okay. Why don't we break for lunch, and just like we did yesterday, will be an hour and 15 minutes, so that gets us to about 1:45. We'll resume at that time. All right. Anything before we break?
Brian Steel (03:38:10):
Not on behalf of Ms. Boles, Your Honor.
Judge (03:38:13):
Okay. We'll see y'all in an hour and 15 minutes.
Brian Steel (03:38:16):
Thank you, sir.
Judge (03:38:16):
Thank you.
Speaker 11 (04:05:00):
(silence)
Judge (04:05:00):
All right, we all are ready?
Brian Steel (04:05:00):
Yes, sir.
Judge (04:05:00):
Okay. Jury please.
Speaker 12 (04:05:00):
[inaudible 04:56:01].
Brian Steel (04:56:30):
Your Honor, if it's no objection, I asked the prosecutors already, they may have an objection. I have like a stack, I don't know what else to call it. I gave the prosecutors also an extra copy and just do that. Can someone just give it to the witness, she'd go through and say, "No, I don't recognize these. I do." So we don't have to sit here for five minutes while she goes through everyone in front of the jury in silence?
Judge (04:56:54):
You want to do that now without the jury?
Brian Steel (04:56:56):
Yeah, it just spills out.
Judge (04:56:58):
I don't mind. You don't mind? Okay. Where's the witness?
Speaker 13 (04:56:58):
She's outside. I'll go get her.
Judge (04:56:58):
We need to stop the jury from coming in.
Brian Steel (04:57:04):
Thank you.
Speaker 14 (04:57:06):
While we do that.
Judge (04:57:07):
Well, they're not even back there, so...
Speaker 14 (04:57:08):
Oh, they're not back.
Speaker 13 (04:57:08):
They're not back yet.
Brian Steel (04:57:11):
That's why we were waiting. I though we'd use the time.
Speaker 13 (04:57:23):
Oh, okay.
Judge (04:57:32):
All right. I think Mr. Steele's going to use some documents to look through before the jury gets back. If you want to go ahead and do that, Mr. Steele?
Ms. Carter (04:57:37):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (04:57:39):
Yes, Your Honor. Ms. Carter, may I come forward?
Ms. Carter (04:57:39):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (04:57:45):
Anyone, it's the same thing. Same question. Any of these you don't recognize, just put on one side.
Ms. Carter (04:57:52):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (04:57:53):
But the ones that you do, if you do, just put on separate side. Thank you.
Ms. Carter (04:57:53):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (04:57:53):
We're just doing this to make it more efficient while the jury's not ready yet.
Judge (04:58:12):
They're back, okay. Hold one minute.
Speaker 15 (04:58:21):
Do you have all the numbers that we just gave her?
Brian Steel (04:58:23):
Oh, yeah.
Speaker 15 (04:58:23):
Okay.
Brian Steel (04:58:23):
She's next. Can you just write them on a piece of paper? Thank you. They're just in order? This is... Thank you.
Ms. Carter (04:58:23):
Sir, I'm finished going through these.
Brian Steel (05:02:19):
And we'll do it on the record, obviously, but do you recognize them?
Ms. Carter (05:02:23):
Yes, sir. I do.
Brian Steel (05:02:24):
All of that?
Ms. Carter (05:02:25):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:02:25):
Okay. And Your Honor, I just showed Ms. Carter six through 71, Ms. Bole's exhibits. And of course, I'll put on the record in front of the jury, but she won't have to go through them.
Judge (05:02:36):
Okay. Very good. Let's have the jury, please.
Brian Steel (05:02:39):
Thank you, sir.
Judge (05:03:21):
Welcome back. Hope everybody had a good lunch break. Why don't we resume without Mr. Steele's questions?
Brian Steel (05:03:28):
Ms. Carter, in the interest of time, the court allowed us, the parties, to provide you some exhibits that are in front of you, some photographs. Is that true?
Ms. Carter (05:03:39):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:03:40):
And were you able to inspect and look at them and determine whether you recognize those photographs and are they accurate?
Ms. Carter (05:03:49):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:03:50):
And they were, and you could just look at the first one and last one if you want, but they're Ms. Boles exhibit number six and then consecutive all the way up to 71. Does that sound right?
Ms. Carter (05:04:03):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:04:04):
Your Honor, I move for the admission of Ms. Boles six, and then it's consecutive, but up to 71.
Judge (05:04:10):
No objections. Okay. Those are admitted.
Brian Steel (05:04:12):
Okay. I would like to discuss some of these photographs with you, if I could.
Ms. Carter (05:04:22):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:04:24):
So I'm going to approach you, and then if you can't see it on the screen, I could give you another photograph, okay?
Ms. Carter (05:04:30):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:04:30):
Your Honor, may I approach?
Judge (05:04:30):
Yes.
Brian Steel (05:04:30):
May I come forward?
Ms. Carter (05:04:33):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:04:36):
Thank you so much. Can I give it to you? Okay. I would like to discuss just the orientation of the room. It's Ms. Boles number 63, and we're going to turn to 64, 65, 66, and 67. We'll do them one at a time, okay?
Ms. Carter (05:05:15):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:05:17):
And can you announce which one you're putting up first, if you don't mind, sir?
Investigator (05:05:19):
63.
Brian Steel (05:05:25):
Thank you, sir. So what we're looking at here is the room, God forbid, where Mr. Akers is rest or is shot. And is it fair to say that from your observation, from actually being there, and then of course you're memorializing it by this photograph, that nothing really looks disturbed? And I'm not saying things weren't moved and put back together, but from the appearance of it looks like an organized room. Is that fair?
Ms. Carter (05:05:57):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:05:58):
Okay. And it appears to be some sort of maybe like a extra bedroom or bedroom at one time. That's the appearance. Is that fair?
Ms. Carter (05:06:10):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:06:11):
All right. And there's something above the... Do you see above this area here? It looks like it discolored the paint. Do you see that?
Ms. Carter (05:06:23):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:06:24):
Was that, in your experience, anything involving what we're dealing with before this jury or was that a prior event?
Ms. Carter (05:06:30):
I have no reason to believe there was anything involved in this.
Brian Steel (05:06:33):
That's a prior event? It appeared to be a prior event?
Ms. Carter (05:06:36):
It appeared to be. Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:06:37):
Okay. Okay. We do see the things that we already talked about, the cup and the trash can, and obviously Ms. Aker's feet?
Ms. Carter (05:06:46):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:06:46):
All right. The next one, if you don't mind, sir.
Investigator (05:06:48):
64.
Brian Steel (05:06:49):
If you remember, this is the other side of the same room. Is that fair to say?
Ms. Carter (05:07:03):
Yes, sir. It is.
Brian Steel (05:07:05):
And do you see here, I don't know if you could read it clearly on this honorable court's screen, but do you see where it says Skylar and it gives a year, 2018?
Ms. Carter (05:07:14):
I can't read that.
Brian Steel (05:07:15):
May I approach, Your Honor?
Judge (05:07:17):
Sure.
Brian Steel (05:07:23):
May I just come forward with an additional picture?
Ms. Carter (05:07:25):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:07:26):
And I'll take this back because it's a copy of what's already in evidence. This way it might be easier. And I'm going to point it for the jury what I'm talking about, but you tell us if you see this yellow item?
Ms. Carter (05:07:42):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:07:43):
Does that look like it says the word Skylar?
Ms. Carter (05:07:46):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:07:46):
And the year 2018?
Ms. Carter (05:07:47):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:07:48):
And do you know whether this used to be Skylar's bedroom? And if you don't have any idea who Skylar is, just say, "I don't know."
Ms. Carter (05:07:55):
I don't know.
Brian Steel (05:07:56):
Okay. All right. And then these items here appear to be for children to play like a playroom?
Ms. Carter (05:08:04):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:08:04):
Okay. The next one, if you don't mind.
Investigator (05:08:15):
65.
Brian Steel (05:08:15):
And if you need to see the actual picture again, we'll do the same thing.
Ms. Carter (05:08:21):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:08:22):
But this one, again, it's the same room and you get the orientation of the two different covers here or the blankets and you see the big pink teddy bear on the corner.
Ms. Carter (05:08:31):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:08:32):
You showed us another picture with just more of a teddy bear on the wall where the discoloration was up here?
Ms. Carter (05:08:36):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:08:37):
Okay. Nothing, again, looks like it was disturbed?
Ms. Carter (05:08:40):
Correct.
Brian Steel (05:08:42):
The next one, if you don't mind, sir.
Investigator (05:08:49):
66.
Brian Steel (05:08:53):
This is the same wastepaper basket that we've discussed, but I'm not saying you can see it in the picture, but the McDonald's cup laying down should be behind this cover or this blanket?
Ms. Carter (05:09:04):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:09:05):
Fair? And then this is the entrance of the room?
Ms. Carter (05:09:08):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:09:09):
And to your memory, that's the only entrance to this room. Is that fair to say?
Ms. Carter (05:09:12):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:09:13):
Okay. And again, there's things on the wall here. They appear, there's a framed picture of an eye. There's a bottle here. It appears like nothing's been disturbed. Is that fair?
Ms. Carter (05:09:24):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:09:25):
Including the roses or the... There's a better name for it, which of course I can't remember.
Ms. Carter (05:09:33):
Floral arrangement?
Brian Steel (05:09:34):
Yes.
Ms. Carter (05:09:34):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:09:35):
Okay. And the same thing with the Christmas decorations above the mirror?
Ms. Carter (05:09:41):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:09:41):
All right. The next one, if you don't mind, sir.
Investigator (05:09:43):
67.
Brian Steel (05:09:49):
67, and you see a little bit of that McDonald's cup right there. Do you recognize that from your distance?
Ms. Carter (05:09:55):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:09:56):
And then it's just a little bit over from the last picture of 66. And I'm just basically showing the entire room and I came in a circle. You see that discoloration up there?
Ms. Carter (05:10:04):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:10:05):
And I just want to obviously try to be thorough. So that's pretty much the entire room we went through. Is that fair to say?
Ms. Carter (05:10:13):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:10:13):
And when I say the entire room, we really focused on, God forbid, Mr. Akers, but then we just went in the perimeter of the room as well.
Ms. Carter (05:10:20):
That's correct.
Brian Steel (05:10:22):
Okay. All right. Thank you. With regards to... I'm going to ask you about a couple of state exhibit numbers, if that's okay.
Ms. Carter (05:10:34):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:10:36):
They're already in evidence, Your Honor. Thank you, sir. May I approach, Your Honor?
Judge (05:11:09):
You may.
Brian Steel (05:11:10):
I'm just going to give them to you so you can see them up front and personal, then I was going to give it to the investigator.
Ms. Carter (05:11:15):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:11:16):
To show the jury again.
Ms. Carter (05:11:17):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:11:18):
But if you need to see them, there's no problem. Okay?
Ms. Carter (05:11:20):
Okay.
Brian Steel (05:11:20):
May I approach, Your Honor?
Judge (05:11:21):
You may.
Brian Steel (05:11:22):
May I approach you?
Ms. Carter (05:11:22):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:11:25):
And just do me a favor as you look at each one. They're already in evidence, just give the state's number so the record can track what I've just handed to you.
Ms. Carter (05:11:33):
146, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 136A.
Brian Steel (05:11:33):
A as in Allisa? Is that what you said? A as in Allisa?
Ms. Carter (05:11:33):
Yes, sir. 137, 137A, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 128, 125, 124, 122, 103, 102, and 100.
Brian Steel (05:13:39):
May I approach, Your Honor?
Judge (05:13:39):
You may.
Brian Steel (05:13:41):
If you need to see any of those when we're going through, just please state it, okay?
Ms. Carter (05:13:43):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:13:43):
May I approach you?
Ms. Carter (05:13:43):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:14:00):
Could you do me a courtesy, Mr. Investigator? Would you just announce which state number and put them up in any order you decide?
Investigator (05:14:11):
100.
Brian Steel (05:14:12):
Okay. And we'll just go and orient the jurors if that's okay with you, okay?
Ms. Carter (05:14:17):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:14:18):
And these are already in evidence. So these are items that were taken off and around the person, Mr. Akers, and obviously on the floor as well. Is that true?
Ms. Carter (05:14:32):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:14:33):
And obviously we have the physical phone, which is already in evidence because you collected that?
Ms. Carter (05:14:39):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:14:39):
Is that fair to say? These other items though, you didn't collect, but you photographed them and passed them along in the body bag for the medical examiner?
Ms. Carter (05:14:47):
I passed them to the coroner. Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:14:49):
Perfect. I'd like to talk to you. Can you blow up the keys, if you don't mind?
Brian Steel (05:15:12):
So the investigator was kind enough to zoom in on the keys. And these are the keys, and I'll show the picture just for orientation, but these are the keys that are found to the left area. I know we don't have a distance, but to the left of the head, I'll say of Mr. Akers is on the floor.
Judge (05:15:32):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:15:32):
Is that fair to say?
Judge (05:15:33):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:15:36):
And I don't know how far because we're on distance, but it's near the baseball hat, if you remember?
Judge (05:15:40):
I believe so. Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:15:42):
Okay. And on this key, what would you call this? A key chain? Is that key ring?
Judge (05:15:48):
A key ring. Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:15:49):
And do you know what this is called?
Judge (05:15:50):
A carabiner?
Brian Steel (05:15:54):
Yeah. And the carabiner is holding onto different rings. Is that-
Judge (05:15:57):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:15:58):
You see at least two, if not more rings here. Is that fair?
Judge (05:16:01):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:16:02):
And then there's this oval to the carabiner?
Judge (05:16:06):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:16:07):
All right. And do you recognize this as a Kroger customer card?
Judge (05:16:12):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:16:13):
And do you recognize this as a... And if you don't, just say, but as a car key with the chip right here. And if you don't, just it's okay.
Judge (05:16:26):
I'm not sure.
Brian Steel (05:16:27):
That's fine. And this right here, do you see what I'm... It's at the very top of the key ring-
Judge (05:16:34):
Yes sir.
Brian Steel (05:16:35):
That is a clasp. Do you recognize that as a clasp?
Judge (05:16:41):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:16:41):
It connects to somebody else's clasp.
Judge (05:16:43):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:16:44):
Do you know who had the other clasp or if it was found within your purview?
Judge (05:16:48):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (05:16:48):
All right. But these are the keys that were in and around where Mr. Akers was?
Judge (05:16:52):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:16:53):
And then we see some other keys on here and some of the keys are underneath each other. Fair to say?
Judge (05:16:58):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:16:59):
And then this is some sort of device. I don't know. I don't want to name it, but this is some other item here, whatever it is.
Judge (05:17:07):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:17:09):
Okay. And just for orientation, I'm going to ask the investigator to use, you should have in front of you, Ms. Boles, number 25, 26, 27 and 28. We'll do them fast if you don't mind. And again, if you need to see the actual photographs in front of you, just please direct us.
Judge (05:17:37):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Investigator (05:17:37):
25.
Brian Steel (05:17:45):
And this is again, just orientation for the jurors. [inaudible 05:17:49] this is Mr. Akers and then I say to his left because that would be his left hand. The gun is here. This is the left side of his body, fair?
Judge (05:17:55):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:17:56):
And then over here is what we just showed separated. It was moved to take the image. It was moved next to his wallet and the lighter, the purple lighter.
Judge (05:18:07):
Are you saying the keys were moved?
Brian Steel (05:18:08):
Yeah, in that last picture.
Judge (05:18:10):
In the last picture, yes. Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:18:13):
It was just to show items.
Judge (05:18:14):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:18:15):
Okay. And here, if you can blow in on it, if you don't mind, Mr. Investigator. And this is another picture of the keys, but you did not collect these keys. Is that fair to say?
Judge (05:18:42):
Yes, sir. That's correct.
Brian Steel (05:18:43):
So they would've been left at the scene?
Judge (05:18:45):
Or given to the coroner.
Brian Steel (05:18:47):
Okay. But you-
Judge (05:18:48):
I don't recall.
Brian Steel (05:18:49):
That's fine.
Judge (05:18:50):
I did not collect them. No, sir.
Brian Steel (05:18:52):
And does this help us with what this blue item is, remember in the last picture? Do you know what that is?
Judge (05:18:57):
No, sir. I don't.
Brian Steel (05:18:58):
But this is the part you were explaining to the jury, this is a clip and it clips into another piece.
Judge (05:19:03):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:19:04):
Presumably.
Judge (05:19:04):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:19:05):
Okay. And that other piece was not here?
Judge (05:19:07):
Correct.
Brian Steel (05:19:08):
Okay. If you could back out of this, if you don't mind, like not the zoom. And just for completeness, this is some sort of vacuum, I'll call it. Do you see that?
Judge (05:19:21):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:19:23):
And that did not look part of this scene, did it?
Judge (05:19:26):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (05:19:26):
Didn't look like anybody was vacuuming up anything?
Judge (05:19:28):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (05:19:29):
It was just kind of tidy in the corner.
Judge (05:19:31):
It was in the corner, correct.
Brian Steel (05:19:33):
Okay. If you can go to the next one, which will be 26, Ms. Boles.
Mr. Investigator (05:19:42):
26?
Brian Steel (05:19:43):
If you don't mind. And here again is the picture. You already talked about, the hat. It did not have any evidence of any blood or any defect, no bullet [inaudible 05:19:55]?
Judge (05:19:54):
Correct.
Brian Steel (05:19:56):
So just the hat. And then the keys over here, it's a different angle you just took the picture.
Judge (05:20:00):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:20:05):
Okay. And then if you go to the next one, if you don't mind, Mr. Investigator, which is going to be number 27, Ms. Boles.
Mr. Investigator (05:20:11):
27?
Brian Steel (05:20:12):
If you don't mind. And again, zooming in when you get it oriented, just for orientation, this would be the hat, and then these are the same keys we've been talking about?
Judge (05:20:24):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:20:25):
And then the Kroger card, it looks like it's a different angle. Can you read the Kroger?
Judge (05:20:29):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:20:30):
You see where it says Kroger?
Judge (05:20:31):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:20:31):
Okay. Can you zoom in on that if you don't mind? You recognize that just from your observations of being a Kroger person?
Judge (05:21:00):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:21:02):
And then these keys, you already said, I think, you don't know what the keys go to?
Judge (05:21:06):
No, sir. I don't.
Brian Steel (05:21:08):
All right. I'm going to skip 28 unless you need to see it, but it was a similar item.
Judge (05:21:16):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:21:21):
I'd like to go to, and if you'll help me with the state's exhibit, the next one.
Mr. Investigator (05:21:29):
102?
Brian Steel (05:21:31):
And this is Mr. Akers, and this was in his wallet. Is that fair to say?
Judge (05:21:36):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:21:36):
And this is his driver's license, just like Ms. Boles, and I'm not saying that it's totally accurate with weight, but it could change, but this has Mr. Akers as 5'11" 170.
Judge (05:21:49):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:21:50):
And it has him also 36 years of age at the time of December 22nd-
Judge (05:21:55):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:21:59):
... 2019. Okay. Thank you, sir. And this casing around it is the wallet itself?
Judge (05:22:04):
Yes, sir it is.
Brian Steel (05:22:04):
It's part of the wallet.Thank you.
Mr. Investigator (05:22:09):
103.
Brian Steel (05:22:18):
In 103, this is, if you remember, this is actually a lighter. Is that fair to say?
Judge (05:22:28):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:22:29):
And when I say a lighter, I'm talking about like if I wanted to smoke a cigar or something.
Judge (05:22:33):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:22:33):
That could work. And this was found in and around the right side of Mr. Akers in some of the photos, and we'll show the jury. Do you remember that? And if you don't-
Judge (05:22:44):
I don't remember that.
Brian Steel (05:22:46):
Okay. We're going to orient them in a minute.
Judge (05:22:47):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:22:48):
And the cell phone you said was found where? Do you remember?
Judge (05:22:52):
I don't remember.
Brian Steel (05:22:55):
That's fine. Okay. And then this is a $1 bill that was inside the... it was just separated for the photograph inside the wallet.
Judge (05:23:00):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:23:01):
And that was all the money because you would've counted all the money and taken a picture of it?
Judge (05:23:03):
Yes.
Brian Steel (05:23:04):
So he had a $1 bill, US currency. And then this is the keys we already discussed.
Judge (05:23:09):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Investigator (05:23:15):
122.
Brian Steel (05:23:19):
Now we moved out from the downstairs, and this is actually the bedroom of Mr. Akers and Ms. Boles upstairs, true?
Judge (05:23:30):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:23:31):
And here is where you found and memorialized and then took a closeup of it, but this is the driver's license of Ms. Boles.
Judge (05:23:42):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:23:43):
And there's a baseball bat here?
Judge (05:23:45):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:23:46):
And it might be a small baseball bat, but whatever. It's a bat. And this is actually a window with a curtain.
Judge (05:23:52):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:23:53):
Fair to say? And you found around here, I believe, some blood?
Judge (05:23:59):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:24:00):
Well suspected blood.
Judge (05:24:01):
Yes.
Brian Steel (05:24:02):
And we have, and the jurors saw them already, but you took a close picture of that.
Judge (05:24:07):
Yes, sir. I did.
Brian Steel (05:24:08):
And I know you didn't swab it to have it tested, but for our purpose today, I know you're not swearing to, but it appeared to be blood.
Judge (05:24:17):
Yes, it did appear to be.
Brian Steel (05:24:19):
And on this window sill, do you know, you see this plug over here?
Judge (05:24:27):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:24:28):
And do you know whether the cell phone of Ms. Boles, do you know she called 911 from a cell phone?
Judge (05:24:33):
I was told she had retrieved her cell phone to call 911.
Brian Steel (05:24:37):
And were you told or do you know whether she retrieved that cell phone from this area right here?
Judge (05:24:43):
That is what I was told the investigator-
Brian Steel (05:24:46):
And there was corresponding blood?
Judge (05:24:48):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:24:49):
And if she had blood on her and going for the cell phone, it might be why there's a blood transfer?
Judge (05:24:53):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:24:54):
And the children, if you know, if you don't know, just say, "I don't remember," or, "I never knew that," There were two children sleeping in that room at the time.
Judge (05:25:02):
I don't know, sir. There were no children when I arrived.
Brian Steel (05:25:04):
Perfect. Perfect. Okay. If you could do the next one.
Mr. Investigator (05:25:08):
124.
Brian Steel (05:25:14):
And this is another picture that you took, very similar to the last one, but what you did was you actually got a little bit closer. Is that fair to say?
Judge (05:25:22):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:25:23):
And that's why we don't really see the cord over here.
Judge (05:25:25):
Correct.
Brian Steel (05:25:25):
And what you're doing is you're giving the viewer a bigger picture, then you get closer, and then you get closer because this way you can have sequencing. You put it in context.
Judge (05:25:37):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:25:38):
Okay. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Investigator (05:25:39):
125.
Brian Steel (05:25:45):
And that again is even closer, but now we are seeing that blood transfer right there or potential blood transfer.
Judge (05:25:52):
Suspected.
Brian Steel (05:25:53):
But you believe to be blood?
Judge (05:25:54):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:25:55):
Okay. And that would be consistent with somebody with blood on their person touching that area?
Judge (05:26:01):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:26:02):
And Ms. Boles had blood on her person?
Judge (05:26:04):
I was advised she did. I never saw her.
Brian Steel (05:26:08):
Okay. But we do see blood transfers throughout.
Judge (05:26:10):
Yes, I do.
Brian Steel (05:26:11):
From the basement to her bedroom here?
Judge (05:26:13):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:26:17):
Okay. Next, please.
Mr. Investigator (05:26:18):
128.
Brian Steel (05:26:21):
And I was just trying to show this electrical outlet behind here. Is that fair to say?
Judge (05:26:26):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:26:28):
Thank you.
Mr. Investigator (05:26:28):
143.
Brian Steel (05:26:36):
This is what I'll call the master bedroom. That's wrong. Master bathroom off the bedroom.
Judge (05:26:41):
Yes, sir. I would agree.
Brian Steel (05:26:42):
The master bathroom off of the master bedroom?
Judge (05:26:46):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:26:47):
Okay. And it has a double sink?
Judge (05:26:49):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:26:50):
And right here, do you know that product to be a hair dye, hair coloring?
Judge (05:26:58):
I can't say for sure.
Brian Steel (05:26:59):
Okay.
Judge (05:27:00):
I don't recall, sir.
Brian Steel (05:27:01):
That's fine. That's fine. And this is a bleach looking item, cleaner, I guess?
Judge (05:27:10):
It does appear to be a cleaner. Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:27:13):
Okay. And you're not saying, and I never said you said, but you're not saying anyone cleaned up this scene at all?
Judge (05:27:18):
No, I'm not saying that. I photographed it as is.
Brian Steel (05:27:21):
Right. I mean, the bleach could have been there the day before, a week before, a month before.
Judge (05:27:25):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:27:26):
Okay. All right. Next one, if you don't mind. Here you just took... And what you're doing is again, you're giving orientation to the viewer. So now you took it where before you could see part of the second sink. Now you're moving over and now you can see the two sinks.
Judge (05:27:54):
Yes, sir. That's correct.
Brian Steel (05:27:54):
Okay. Next one if you don't mind.
Mr. Investigator (05:28:00):
141.
Brian Steel (05:28:02):
Now what you did was you went actually, instead of where the bleach, I'll say, by the far sink, now you're actually focused on the other sink.
Judge (05:28:10):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:28:11):
Okay. And what you found interesting is there's going to be some items that are discoloration that you believe to be blood inside this white basin, fair to say?
Judge (05:28:25):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:28:27):
Okay. If you could do the next one.
Mr. Investigator (05:28:33):
140.
Brian Steel (05:28:36):
And here what you did, you gave us all the... You're leading us through it, and now what you're doing, as the [inaudible 05:28:42] crime scene technician, is now you are focused just on that basin.
Judge (05:28:46):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:28:47):
And you had to take the other photographs just to put... you gave us context.
Judge (05:28:51):
Yes, sir. That's correct.
Brian Steel (05:28:53):
But now we're really talking about what you thought was interesting. I'm not saying you didn't think everything was interesting, but this is something that you thought had to be focused on.
Judge (05:29:00):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:29:01):
And these areas here, and I'm not saying I'm touching everyone with this pointer, but this is what appears to be suspected blood. Is that fair to say?
Judge (05:29:13):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:29:14):
And it's in the basin of the sink, right?
Judge (05:29:16):
It is.
Brian Steel (05:29:18):
And you didn't swab it to determine who's-
Judge (05:29:24):
No, sir. I was asked to photograph it. It was consistent with everything the investigation had yielded to that point.
Brian Steel (05:29:31):
And this could be consistent with somebody maybe washing blood off whatever, their face, their hands-
Judge (05:29:38):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:29:38):
... Their feet.
Judge (05:29:39):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:29:40):
And you were aware that Ms. Boles was bloody?
Judge (05:29:45):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:29:46):
And you were aware that she was also interacting with her children?
Judge (05:29:49):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:29:50):
And her mother?
Judge (05:29:51):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:29:51):
Do you know whether a child or the mother came in here and used this to wash their hands?
Judge (05:29:56):
I do not know.
Brian Steel (05:29:59):
And if Ms. Boles was bloody and she got blood on me, let's say if I was there, and I washed my hands, maybe I could leave, even though I never was with Mr. Akers, I could leave some blood in the sink, right?
Judge (05:30:13):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:30:13):
I mean, it's just whoever has the blood on them wash it off, it falls in the sink?
Judge (05:30:17):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:30:18):
Now here, and I don't know if it matters, but did anyone ask you to, after photographing, of course, to run the water and see how long it takes for the water to disappear from the basin?
Judge (05:30:34):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (05:30:35):
Do you see any water in here at all?
Judge (05:30:39):
It appears to be a drop of water on the top right above the drain.
Brian Steel (05:30:46):
Can I just get you the photograph?
Judge (05:30:48):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:30:49):
Yes. And it's a paper photograph, so it may not be great. May I approach? Your Honor, may I approach?
Judge (05:30:58):
Yes.
Brian Steel (05:30:58):
May I approach?
Judge (05:30:58):
Yes, sir. Yes, sir. You can still see what appears to be drops of water.
Brian Steel (05:31:14):
And can you point it out to the jury and with the court's permission to get, if you don't mind, off the witness stand and just show the jury? And just for the sound of the court to understand where you pointed on state's exhibit number 140, you were pointing, and tell me if I'm wrong, you were saying you believe maybe were right there?
Judge (05:32:14):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:32:15):
And the other one is right here?
Judge (05:32:17):
No, sir. Over to the left.
Brian Steel (05:32:18):
This?
Judge (05:32:19):
Down some, closer to the drain, right in there. Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:32:25):
Okay. Did you document anywhere that there was water in the sink?
Judge (05:32:27):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (05:32:27):
Okay. All right. And I don't know if that matters because water sometimes can go right through the basin.
Judge (05:32:34):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:32:35):
Right? I mean, and sometimes I guess water can get caught. Depends on the actual sink.
Judge (05:32:41):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:32:41):
That's true, right?
Judge (05:32:42):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:32:42):
Okay. Thank you, sir. The next one I think is just going to be the same picture, but-
Mr. Investigator (05:32:47):
State's exhibit 139.
Brian Steel (05:32:50):
But that's just the same thing, correct?
Judge (05:32:52):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:32:53):
And then the jurors can view the photograph for water if they think that's interesting.
Judge (05:32:56):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:32:57):
But the real issue that you took the photograph was just to show that somebody may have cleaned themselves in that bathroom.
Judge (05:33:07):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:33:07):
You are not saying that's Ms. Boles?
Judge (05:33:12):
Correct.
Brian Steel (05:33:13):
And if it was Ms. Boles, then someone could have... I mean, police officer there to determine what she looked like when she left the scene, when she left the house, rather.
Judge (05:33:23):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:33:25):
Okay. And you weren't there yet when she left the house?
Judge (05:33:26):
No, sir. I was not.
Brian Steel (05:33:27):
That was not in your purview?
Judge (05:33:29):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (05:33:29):
Okay. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Investigator (05:33:34):
State's 138.
Brian Steel (05:33:36):
It's just another picture. I wasn't going to ask any questions unless you see something remarkable that you should tell the jurors.
Judge (05:33:43):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (05:33:44):
Okay. Same answer, same questions, right?
Judge (05:33:46):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:33:46):
Okay.
Mr. Investigator (05:33:50):
State's 137A.
Brian Steel (05:33:54):
I have no other question unless you have a different answer.
Judge (05:33:56):
No sir.
Mr. Investigator (05:33:59):
State's 137.
Brian Steel (05:34:02):
And what you're doing here is you're just giving a different direction for the picture, true?
Judge (05:34:07):
Yes, sir. I believe there was additional spot on the actual sink.
Brian Steel (05:34:17):
Where-
Judge (05:34:17):
On the vanity itself, to the left of the sink.
Brian Steel (05:34:22):
Show me, tell me, or you can have the pointer.
Judge (05:34:26):
I don't believe you can see it in the photograph.
Brian Steel (05:34:28):
Okay. When you find a photograph that-
Judge (05:34:30):
It's just outside the photograph on the left-hand side.
Brian Steel (05:34:33):
If you see that photograph, just let us know, okay?
Judge (05:34:36):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:34:36):
And point it out. I appreciate it. Okay. Thank you for doing that.
Judge (05:34:40):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Investigator (05:34:42):
State's 136A.
Brian Steel (05:34:44):
Okay.
Judge (05:34:45):
You can see it in that picture, sir.
Brian Steel (05:34:47):
You do?
Judge (05:34:48):
Yes. On the left-hand side.
Brian Steel (05:34:50):
Show me...
Judge (05:34:51):
Above the drawer handle.
Brian Steel (05:34:56):
Above this door handle. This?
Judge (05:34:59):
Yes. Up on top. To the left. Right in there.
Brian Steel (05:35:06):
You see blood here?
Judge (05:35:07):
There is an additional photograph that shows it from a different angle where you can see it.
Brian Steel (05:35:11):
Okay.
Judge (05:35:12):
And that is where it's at.
Brian Steel (05:35:12):
Well, let's come across that photograph if you can, okay?
Judge (05:35:15):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:35:17):
Thank you. Was that in your-
Mr. Investigator (05:35:21):
State's 136.
Brian Steel (05:35:21):
Is that in your report?
Judge (05:35:25):
I would have to review my report again to say for sure.
Brian Steel (05:35:31):
Is this [inaudible 05:35:33]? State's 136?
Judge (05:35:43):
There should be a closeup of that one.
Brian Steel (05:35:46):
Would you like to have that picture? Is that what you're saying?
Judge (05:35:50):
Yes, please.
Brian Steel (05:35:50):
Sure. Your Honor, may I approach?
Judge (05:35:57):
You may.
Brian Steel (05:35:59):
Thank you, Mr. Investigator. May I also show crime scene technician photograph one?
Judge (05:36:11):
Sure.
Brian Steel (05:36:11):
To refresh your memory?
Judge (05:36:12):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:36:13):
That's what you asked for?
Judge (05:36:16):
Yes.
Brian Steel (05:36:16):
So I'm showing you two different items. I got 136, and then just read to yourself if you need to, the report. Tell us whether you made a note of blood on the countertop or suspected blood.
Judge (05:36:29):
I do not see it documented in my report, only the sink.
Brian Steel (05:37:01):
Okay. And just because the word it is used, you're talking about on the countertop, there's nothing in your report that says there was any suspected blood on the countertop?
Judge (05:37:10):
Correct.
Brian Steel (05:37:14):
Okay. And then did that help by viewing the photograph up front?
Judge (05:37:16):
Yes. You can see what I was referring to the left of the sink in this photograph.
Brian Steel (05:37:21):
Can you show... With the court's permission, you have to wait, can you show the jury? Thank you.
Judge (05:37:52):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:37:57):
And just for the record, we are talking about, as you said, I'm using your words, just above on the countertop right before you get to the basin to the sink.
Judge (05:38:06):
To the left of the sink.
Brian Steel (05:38:09):
Yes. That's wonderful. Thank you.
Judge (05:38:12):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:38:12):
And you, again, don't know if the child, the mother, children, Ms. Boles, you don't know?
Judge (05:38:19):
I wasn't there with any of them. I don't know, sir.
Brian Steel (05:38:21):
You don't know who deposited that suspected blood?
Judge (05:38:22):
No.
Brian Steel (05:38:23):
Am I correct?
Judge (05:38:24):
Correct.
Brian Steel (05:38:29):
I need to show that to the judge so the judge sees it also. And I'm just doing this for the honorable court, but you're talking about right there. You can see it in the photograph-
Judge (05:38:40):
Yes.
Brian Steel (05:38:40):
... Maybe better than on the screen. Fair to say? Thank you for doing that. Okay.
Mr. Investigator (05:38:43):
State's 135.
Brian Steel (05:38:52):
And I wasn't going to ask any other questions unless you think it's important.
Judge (05:38:55):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (05:38:56):
All right.
Mr. Investigator (05:39:02):
State's 134.
Brian Steel (05:39:04):
And that leads into the toilet area, fair to say? If you remember.
Judge (05:39:12):
I don't recall.
Brian Steel (05:39:13):
That's fine.
Judge (05:39:14):
I'm sorry.
Brian Steel (05:39:16):
That's okay. Okay. Next.
Mr. Investigator (05:39:20):
State's 133.
Brian Steel (05:39:25):
Is that anything more that we need to discuss?
Judge (05:39:27):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (05:39:29):
For that room in the house?
Judge (05:39:29):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (05:39:30):
Okay.
Mr. Investigator (05:39:34):
State's 132.
Brian Steel (05:39:40):
That's just the bathroom and you're filming the... You giving context from the doorway leading into the bathroom on the floor?
Judge (05:39:46):
Yes.
Brian Steel (05:39:47):
Okay.
Mr. Investigator (05:39:51):
State's 131.
Brian Steel (05:39:54):
And that's just showing entering the bathroom?
Judge (05:39:56):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:39:57):
Okay. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Investigator (05:40:02):
State's 146.
Brian Steel (05:40:09):
So to orient the ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we left the upstairs bedroom, bathroom area, and now we're in the upstairs kitchen area. Is that fair to say?
Judge (05:40:20):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:40:21):
And this cup is a McDonald's cup. Do you see that?
Judge (05:40:25):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:40:27):
And this is a different cup from the cup that's lying to the feet, the left foot of Mr. Akers, fair?
Judge (05:40:32):
That's correct.
Brian Steel (05:40:33):
And this has nothing to do with that cup that's with Mr. Akers in the lower level of the house. Am I right?
Judge (05:40:40):
I don't know for sure.
Brian Steel (05:40:41):
Good point. I asked a terrible question. This cup, it's not like somebody put it together again and put it into the kitchen area. This is a different cup.
Judge (05:40:51):
It is a different cup.
Brian Steel (05:40:53):
Okay. And you don't know if that cup was there from dinner before, you just don't know?
Judge (05:40:58):
Correct.
Brian Steel (05:40:58):
But you just took a picture of it because you were taking a picture of the entirety of the house.
Judge (05:41:01):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:41:03):
Nothing of that cup though is remarkable for blood or any other evidence?
Judge (05:41:08):
Correct.
Brian Steel (05:41:09):
Okay. And then there's a chapstick next to-
Judge (05:41:11):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:41:12):
Okay. All right. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Investigator (05:41:13):
That's it.
Brian Steel (05:41:13):
You did it?
Mr. Investigator (05:41:13):
That's it.
Brian Steel (05:41:18):
Okay. All right. Going back to the keys on the ground ...
Judge (05:41:56):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:41:57):
Near the hat near Mr. Akers.
Judge (05:41:58):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:42:02):
You don't know if those keys were later connected to another set of keys. Remember that connection?
Judge (05:42:11):
I don't know.
Brian Steel (05:42:11):
You don't know what happened after December 22, 2019 when you left the house to those keys?
Judge (05:42:15):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (05:42:27):
Okay. You mentioned earlier that you were on the scene, but you had to wait for consent for Ms. Boles, to enter the house because that's all of our rights.
Judge (05:42:39):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:42:39):
It's privacy in America.
Judge (05:42:41):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:42:43):
People have the right to be without the government coming into their homes.
Judge (05:42:49):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:42:50):
Or their cars or their personal effects, et cetera. And you're part of the government-
Judge (05:42:55):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:42:55):
... For purposes of that rule, but Ms. Boles did consent. That's what you were told anyway?
Judge (05:42:59):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:43:04):
Okay. And that was Detective Ogden who went to the hospital to meet with Ms. Boles?
Judge (05:43:07):
That's correct.
Brian Steel (05:43:08):
And got that consent?
Judge (05:43:09):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:43:11):
I shouldn't just use the word consent. Consent for you and your coworkers to go in and do your job?
Judge (05:43:17):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:43:18):
Okay. Mr. Akers was wearing, if you remember, a gray jogging pants, I'll call them jogging pants, but gray sweatpants. Does that sound right?
Judge (05:43:31):
Sounds right.
Brian Steel (05:43:32):
And work boots in the pictures?
Judge (05:43:37):
Do you have a picture you can put up?
Brian Steel (05:43:39):
Yeah. And also, if you need to refresh your memory, I do have pictures. In fact, let's use a picture. Give me one second.
Judge (05:43:48):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:44:16):
Ms. Boles, number 17, I believe is already in evidence, Your Honor, a little while ago. Can I just approach you-
Judge (05:44:23):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:44:23):
... Make sure this is a good picture, and then we'll give it to the investigator?
Judge (05:44:26):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:44:26):
Your Honor, may I approach?
Judge (05:44:33):
Yes.
Brian Steel (05:44:33):
Will this help us [inaudible 05:44:38]?
Judge (05:44:38):
Yes, sir. It will.
Brian Steel (05:44:38):
Is that a good one?
Judge (05:44:38):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:44:38):
May I approach you?
Mr. Investigator (05:44:38):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:44:42):
Do you mind disclosing this? And that's Ms. Boles 17.
(05:44:42)
And I'm just using this for his clothing, but is it fair to say he's wearing what appears to be, I'll say the color gray jogging pants or gray pants?
Judge (05:44:54):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:44:55):
And work boots?
Judge (05:44:57):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:44:58):
And a black sweatshirt?
Judge (05:44:59):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:45:00):
Do you remember if it was hooded sweatshirt?
Judge (05:45:02):
I don't remember.
Brian Steel (05:45:04):
I'll show you a picture in a minute, okay?
Judge (05:45:05):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:45:06):
And a white t-shirt.
Judge (05:45:08):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:45:10):
And if you look in your report, if you need to refresh your memory, if you don't need to refresh your memory, say, "I don't want to." First page, eighth paragraph, the last sentence, if that refreshes your memory.
Judge (05:45:28):
In reference to what he was wearing?
Brian Steel (05:45:31):
Yeah. The gray pants, work boots, black sweatshirt.
Judge (05:45:42):
Yes, sir. It does say he was fully clothed, wearing gray jogging pants, work boots, a black sweatshirt, and a white t-shirt.
Brian Steel (05:45:48):
Okay. Now, I want to ask the investigator if he will zoom in on the right side of Mr. Akers in that picture. And that should be Ms. Boles 17. And around his pocket area, if you don't mind, in his pants. And do you see that purple lighter in the pocket?
Judge (05:46:29):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:46:29):
And it's protruding a little bit, and you made it clear for us, you and others, or others, remove that lighter from the right pocket and then took the photograph that-
Judge (05:46:40):
Yes.
Brian Steel (05:46:42):
The item to the left of the pocket, and just for clarity, just to make sure, what you were just describing, is that purple lighter?
Judge (05:46:54):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:46:55):
And this item, do you remember what this is?
Judge (05:46:58):
No, sir. I don't.
Brian Steel (05:46:59):
Would it be in your report by any chance?
Judge (05:47:03):
Possibly. I don't see it listed in my report, sir.
Brian Steel (05:47:45):
Okay. That's fine. May I approach, Your Honor?
Judge (05:48:15):
Yes.
Brian Steel (05:48:18):
These are already in evidence. [inaudible 05:48:23] Thank you. May I approach?
Judge (05:48:30):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:48:31):
I'm just showing you, these have already been identified. If they're not, tell me if these are not identified.
Judge (05:48:35):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:48:37):
I'm going to show you, Ms. Boles, 32, 31, 30, 29, 33, 41, 42, 43, and 44. They're already in evidence from what we did earlier, but I'm just going to ask you a couple of questions. I am not going to show Mr Akers's face, but if you don't mind looking at it, I'd appreciate it. That top one, can you just on the back, it'll say what exhibit number it is?
Judge (05:49:15):
44.
Brian Steel (05:49:17):
And does that help you remember that it not only was a sweatshirt, but a hooded sweatshirt?
Judge (05:49:21):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:49:24):
Okay. And then if you can just look at the other ones and we'll put the other ones up unless they are of Ms. Akers's face, I'm not going to do that. And this is just to reorient you. You already seen these photographs, correct?
Judge (05:49:47):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:50:01):
Okay. May I approach, Your Honor?
Judge (05:50:02):
You may.
Brian Steel (05:50:01):
May I approach, Your Honor?
Judge Bucci (05:50:01):
You may.
Brian Steel (05:50:04):
And you should have these photographs. May I approach you?
Amanda Carter (05:50:07):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:50:08):
Thank you so much. Did it refresh your memory by any chance, looking up front at Ms. Boles number 32, what that item is to the right of-
Amanda Carter (05:50:23):
I still can't tell from that photograph.
Brian Steel (05:50:25):
That's fine. Okay. You already talked about it is a hooded sweatshirt.
Amanda Carter (05:50:29):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:50:42):
In number 30, if you could display that if you don't mind, Ms. Boles number 30? And here, Mr. Akers is being turned onto his left side; fair to say?
Amanda Carter (05:51:11):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:51:12):
And that is an item that we saw earlier in his right pocket. That's the lighter, the purple lighter?
Amanda Carter (05:51:18):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:51:21):
Maybe it was intentional, but it came out of this pocket?
Amanda Carter (05:51:24):
Correct.
Brian Steel (05:51:25):
Or at least it appeared to?
Amanda Carter (05:51:26):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:51:27):
And then in that pocket right there, that's his cell phone?
Amanda Carter (05:51:31):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:51:32):
And that's again in the right pocket of his gray pants?
Amanda Carter (05:51:38):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:51:39):
Jogging pants? Okay. Thank you, sir. If you don't mind putting up, and you can just cover the face if you can, with your finger maybe, but this is number 41. If you could just zoom in on the left pocket of the pants? And are you able to see, does that look like the wallet that was taken from Mr. Akers' person that was photographed? His driver's license?
Amanda Carter (05:53:00):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:53:00):
The $1 bill?
Amanda Carter (05:53:02):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:53:02):
And this is in the left-hand pocket?
Amanda Carter (05:53:07):
That's correct.
Brian Steel (05:53:07):
Okay. Thank you. You took a photograph that's already in evidence. Ms. Boles... I don't have the number.
(05:53:24)
May I have one second, Your Honor? I'm going to show you, it's already in evidence. It's number 1, Ms. Boles number 1. It's already in evidence. Do you have number 1 in? Can I just give you this? May I approach, Your Honor?
Judge Bucci (05:54:03):
Yes.
Brian Steel (05:54:05):
Actually, can I show it to you?
Judge Bucci (05:54:06):
You may.
Brian Steel (05:54:08):
Just to orient you, make sure that you took this picture and you remember this picture.
Amanda Carter (05:54:24):
Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:54:26):
I'm going to display it with the Court's permission, okay?
Amanda Carter (05:54:27):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:54:35):
Thank you, sir. And this is Ms. Boles number 1. It's already in evidence. And you took this picture, is that fair to say?
Amanda Carter (05:54:41):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:54:42):
And what you did here was, this is the front door and it has a landing?
Amanda Carter (05:54:46):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:54:47):
And then to go to the left, go upstairs to where the kitchen, living room, hallway, bedrooms, bathrooms?
Amanda Carter (05:54:56):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:54:57):
Okay. And then you also took it, though, to show when a person comes in the front door, they can also go downstairs?
Amanda Carter (05:55:03):
Correct.
Brian Steel (05:55:04):
And then downstairs to the left is the room where this tremendous tragedy happened?
Amanda Carter (05:55:09):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:55:10):
And you also took this picture to show that there's no obstruction from the... If I was standing, let's say, on the top steps... I'll just use this. I could actually look down here to see someone going downstairs if the timing worked out?
Amanda Carter (05:55:30):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:55:31):
And someone downstairs could look up here, potentially see somebody else on the steps here?
Amanda Carter (05:55:36):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:55:36):
There's no obstructions?
Amanda Carter (05:55:37):
Correct.
Brian Steel (05:55:38):
Okay. Thank you, sir. Now, there was so much blood, God forbid, on Mr. Akers' face area-
Amanda Carter (05:56:07):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:56:08):
... you couldn't determine where the defect was, right?
Amanda Carter (05:56:11):
No, sir. We could not.
Brian Steel (05:56:15):
The blood had to be removed first? Cleaned up?
Amanda Carter (05:56:17):
Correct.
Brian Steel (05:56:17):
And then somebody could look for the defect?
Amanda Carter (05:56:21):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:56:21):
But there was clearly a wound there causing all the blood to come out?
Amanda Carter (05:56:25):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:56:26):
All right. You did a gunshot residue collection kit. Do you remember doing that?
Amanda Carter (05:56:33):
On him, yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:56:35):
And when you say on him, we're talking about Mr. Akers?
Amanda Carter (05:56:36):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:56:38):
And what that does is you swipe, is that the right word? Why don't you tell us what you do?
Amanda Carter (05:56:49):
I would have to refer to the directions in the kit because I follow them every time I perform one of those procedures.
Brian Steel (05:56:56):
Okay. But what you're trying to do is what you've been doing the whole time. You're trying to preserve evidence and information?
Amanda Carter (05:57:04):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:57:04):
And what you did was, however the directions were, you followed the directions accurately?
Amanda Carter (05:57:09):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:57:10):
And you did whatever you did, whatever you used to touch, but you took sampling off of the hands, both hands, of Mr. Akers?
Amanda Carter (05:57:24):
Yes.
Brian Steel (05:57:25):
And then you can submit it to the lead detective who can submit to the scientists with the crime lab to determine whether there's any called gunshot residue?
Amanda Carter (05:57:36):
It would be submitted to the evidence room as opposed to the lead detective.
Brian Steel (05:57:41):
And then the lead detective can direct it to that evidence to go to the scientist?
Amanda Carter (05:57:45):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:57:46):
And what that does is it could show that a person... You're not an expert in gunshot residue?
Amanda Carter (05:57:53):
No, sir, I'm not.
Brian Steel (05:57:55):
Okay. But you know how to preserve the evidence so that an expert can look at it-
Amanda Carter (05:57:58):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:57:58):
... to determine whether there's any particles that are consistent with being around a gun?
Amanda Carter (05:58:03):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:58:07):
Okay. You never did that for Ms. Boles because you were never asked to do that?
Amanda Carter (05:58:11):
Correct.
Brian Steel (05:58:16):
You said earlier that you didn't know if the coroner brought Mr. Akers directly to the GBI crime lab or not. Do you remember saying that?
Amanda Carter (05:58:27):
No, sir.
Brian Steel (05:58:28):
Do you remember where the coroner took Mr. Akers?
Amanda Carter (05:58:32):
I remember saying that I don't know if she took his personal effects directly to her office or to GBI.
Brian Steel (05:58:37):
How about Ms. Akers?
Amanda Carter (05:58:38):
As far as transport, I've never been told different of them taking an individual anywhere other than GBI, but Ms. Eberhart would have to answer that.
Brian Steel (05:58:48):
Okay. And in your report, do you remember specifically noting that Mr. Akers was taken directly to the GBI crime lab?
Amanda Carter (05:58:57):
I believe I noted that he was turned over to a transport company arranged by her.
Brian Steel (05:59:03):
That's right. Page 2 of your report, fifth paragraph, last sentence.
Amanda Carter (05:59:15):
Yes. It says, "Coroner Eberhart had arranged for a transport company to transport the victim to the GBI crime lab."
Brian Steel (05:59:21):
And when we say "transport to the GBI crime lab," that's the same place we've been talking about where the scientists are?
Amanda Carter (05:59:27):
Yes, sir. It is.
Brian Steel (05:59:28):
And that's the autopsy?
Amanda Carter (05:59:29):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:59:30):
Okay. And then you were advised, I know you weren't there with Ms. Boles, but you were advised that she was vomiting in the trash can?
Amanda Carter (05:59:37):
Yes, sir. That's correct.
Brian Steel (05:59:38):
And that would be by the officers?
Amanda Carter (05:59:43):
The responding deputies or the detective that was on scene. Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (05:59:47):
Now, you took Mr. Akers' cell phone into custody and preserved for evidence because a cell phone could, in certain circumstances, be fertile ground for a lot of information?
Amanda Carter (05:59:59):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:00:00):
And that a lot of information could be the location of the cell phone, like GPS?
Amanda Carter (06:00:06):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:00:07):
Who the person was contacting?
Amanda Carter (06:00:10):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:00:10):
Text message, telephone calls, emails?
Amanda Carter (06:00:15):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:00:15):
Or communicating with? It could be what they were Googling, or we didn't have AI much in 2019, I assume, but we could really tell a lot from anybody. You could take my cell phone. It could tell a lot about what I'm interested in and what I'm doing?
Amanda Carter (06:00:34):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:00:34):
Okay. And that's why you took that cell phone?
Amanda Carter (06:00:34):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:00:41):
Okay. Were you aware that gunshot residue, when you did the test, it's not only on people, it could be on objects?
Amanda Carter (06:00:51):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:00:52):
Have you ever taken it from a car, the lining of a car or...
Amanda Carter (06:00:56):
I've never had a case where I've had the need to do that. Specialized services are usually... We contact GBI to work the scene.
Brian Steel (06:01:05):
Okay. How about off of walls or doorframes or anything like that? Have you ever-
Amanda Carter (06:01:11):
No, sir. I've never done that.
Brian Steel (06:01:13):
Okay. You know it can be done?
Amanda Carter (06:01:15):
I'm aware that it can land on any object in the room.
Brian Steel (06:01:19):
Yeah. It's just-
Amanda Carter (06:01:20):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:01:21):
Okay. All right. And I think we already cleared it up totally, but just in case, you used the word spatter, blood spatter, earlier on direct examination. Do you remember that?
Amanda Carter (06:01:37):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:01:45):
Do you know what a cast-off is?
Amanda Carter (06:01:47):
I do know what it is.
Brian Steel (06:01:50):
Okay. You don't want to get into cast-off versus spatter?
Amanda Carter (06:01:56):
No, sir. I do not.
Brian Steel (06:01:57):
You just-
Amanda Carter (06:01:57):
No, sir. I do not.
Brian Steel (06:01:58):
You just take the picture and leave it up to the other experts to determine what happened with the blood?
Amanda Carter (06:02:03):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:02:04):
Okay. Your Honor, may I have one second?
Judge Bucci (06:02:18):
You may.
Brian Steel (06:02:43):
I want to thank you for your time.
Amanda Carter (06:03:08):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:03:10):
Happy Holidays.
Amanda Carter (06:03:11):
Happy Holidays.
Brian Steel (06:03:14):
You knew coming into this death investigation that... And everyone knew, as far as your team, that everyone had to do their best job?
Amanda Carter (06:03:25):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:03:26):
Thank you.
Judge Bucci (06:03:26):
All right. Redirect.
State (06:03:31):
Thank you. Opposing counsel, what's been marked for identification purposes only, if I may approach him, as we want State's 181. May I approach the witness, please?
Judge Bucci (06:03:57):
You may.
State (06:03:57):
Ma'am, let me show you what's been marked for identification purposes only as State's Exhibit 181 and have you look at this.
Amanda Carter (06:04:38):
Yes.
State (06:04:38):
See if you can identify this, please.
Amanda Carter (06:04:38):
This is a gunshot residue evidence collection kit, and it states, "Hand wipings of Daniel Akers."
State (06:04:38):
How do you recognize State's 181?
Amanda Carter (06:04:38):
This is my handwriting.
State (06:04:38):
Did you prepare that kit?
Amanda Carter (06:04:38):
Yes, I did.
State (06:04:38):
Does that kit look the same or in similar condition as when you executed the kit on scene when you were there?
Amanda Carter (06:04:38):
Similar condition.
State (06:04:38):
Does it look like there's been any changes or alterations or destruction of the State's 181 that would make it unreliable, or to your knowledge, not what you did on the scene?
Amanda Carter (06:04:38):
No, sir.
State (06:04:38):
Move the Court respectfully to admit into evidence what's been marked previously for identification purposes only as State's 181.
Brian Steel (06:04:39):
No opposition, Your Honor.
Judge Bucci (06:04:40):
All right. It's admitted.
State (06:04:44):
Thank you.
Amanda Carter (06:04:45):
Yes, sir.
State (06:04:46):
Permission to publish, Your Honor?
Judge Bucci (06:04:47):
Yes, sir.
State (06:04:47):
So let me just show you the jury and have you help me show the jury what's on the outside of State's 181. At the top it says, "Gunshot residue evidence collection kit," right?
Amanda Carter (06:05:00):
Yes, sir.
State (06:05:02):
And then here we see that 53626 again, right?
Amanda Carter (06:05:05):
Yes, sir.
State (06:05:06):
Same case number that we're working. And then date of collection, obviously we see 12-22-19, the date you were there, right?
Amanda Carter (06:05:13):
Yes, sir.
State (06:05:17):
And down here, this is again that UPC type of number, and you said you thought earlier you're confident that came from the crime lab.
Amanda Carter (06:05:23):
Yes, sir. That is a DBI statement.
State (06:05:27):
Tell me, do you remember who directed you to execute a GSR gunshot residue collection kit at the scene, or did you make that decision to determination yourself?
Amanda Carter (06:05:37):
I don't recall.
State (06:05:40):
Okay. Is it possible you decided to do that yourself?
Amanda Carter (06:05:42):
Yes, sir. It is.
State (06:05:44):
Is it possible also, equally possible, that the lead detective said to do the test?
Amanda Carter (06:05:47):
Yes, sir. It is.
State (06:05:48):
Why would you do a gunshot residue test like State's 181 at a scene like this?
Amanda Carter (06:05:54):
Because it's the best way to preserve that evidence prior to putting him in a bag to send him to the medical examiner's office for an autopsy.
State (06:06:02):
All right. And to your knowledge, did you do it based on your training, knowledge, experience, correctly, accurately, according to the directions?
Amanda Carter (06:06:11):
I followed the directions step by step.
State (06:06:13):
And you said when Mr. Steel asked you, "How did you do it or what did you do? Did you swipe it or something?" You said, "Well, I just followed the directions." Are there different kits with different manners of execution?
Amanda Carter (06:06:24):
Yes, sir.
State (06:06:25):
So depending on the kit-
Amanda Carter (06:06:27):
Yes, sir.
State (06:06:27):
... is it fair that there may be different directions?
Amanda Carter (06:06:28):
Yes, sir.
State (06:06:32):
Okay. So do you follow the directions of the application for that particular product?
Amanda Carter (06:06:35):
Yes, sir.
State (06:06:37):
Okay. Let me have you open that up, please. If you'll don the gloves there, if you need to. I'll bring it to you. Let me just have you open State's Exhibit 181 and show what's inside there, please. And as you're opening it, we see your blue tape and then some other red tape, some other agency [inaudible 06:07:21].
Amanda Carter (06:07:18):
Yes, sir.
State (06:07:57):
Okay, go ahead and remove it. All right. Okay. First of all, you've removed what looks like a folded piece of paper. What's on that and why would there be a piece of paper in there?
Amanda Carter (06:08:03):
This is the additional information that is sealed inside the kit. It lists the collecting officer, collecting agency, agency case number, date of collection, same information that was on the front. It also lists the subject's name, the incident, information, date, time, place of incident, firearm, ammunition, the caliber and manufacturer of the ammunition.
State (06:08:33):
Okay. Who would've prepared that paper?
Amanda Carter (06:08:34):
I prepared this.
State (06:08:35):
Is it fair and accurate to what you prepared? Did you prepare it on 12-22-19?
Amanda Carter (06:08:38):
Yes, sir.
State (06:08:41):
Does it look like the same or similar conditions to when you prepared it?
Amanda Carter (06:08:44):
There's additional handwriting at the top that appears to be the same GBI case number.
State (06:08:51):
I'll label that as State's Exhibit 181A as in alpha. May I approach opposing counsel?
Judge Bucci (06:09:00):
You may.
State (06:09:00):
Thank you. I'll show opposing counsel what's been marked as 181A, like alpha, the inside contents of 180. Excuse me, inside contents of State's 181.
Brian Steel (06:09:18):
No opposition, Your Honor.
Judge Bucci (06:09:20):
All right, that's admitted.
State (06:09:22):
Thank you. Permission to publish 181A?
Judge Bucci (06:09:23):
Yes, sir.
State (06:09:33):
All right. So inside, why would you fill out this information and put it inside with your GSR test kit?
Amanda Carter (06:09:43):
It's part of the kit. It's part of the procedure for performing a GSR.
State (06:09:47):
Is it important to fully document everything you did with the GSR collection process?
Amanda Carter (06:09:51):
Yes, sir.
State (06:09:51):
And then you've also got some of the contents of State's 181 here. I'm going to take one of them. I'll label all three of these 181B like bravo and move to admit those as the contents of State's 181.
(06:10:08)
May I approach opposing counsel?
Judge Bucci (06:10:12):
You may.
State (06:10:12):
So there are three and I'll label all 181B like bravo. So move the Court to admit just as a subdivision of 181, all 181B like bravo.
Brian Steel (06:10:32):
Now, Judge Bucci, I don't have any objections.
Judge Bucci (06:10:34):
All right. It's admitted.
State (06:10:35):
Permission to publish, please.
Judge Bucci (06:10:37):
Yes, sir.
State (06:10:37):
So I think I'll publish over here. May I approach the jury box, please?
Judge Bucci (06:10:45):
Yes, sir.
State (06:10:45):
Thank you. So inside of the GSR collection kit are these little bottles. What are these little bottles, please?
Amanda Carter (06:10:54):
One is a control. One is for the left hand. One is for the right hand.
State (06:11:02):
Okay. One of them says left hand?
Amanda Carter (06:11:06):
Yes, sir.
State (06:11:06):
Okay. And then a control and then a right hand?
Amanda Carter (06:11:10):
Yes, sir.
State (06:11:11):
And what would a control be?
Amanda Carter (06:11:14):
You hold it in the air for a few seconds before you put it back into the container. The directions tell you exactly how long to hold it.
State (06:11:24):
Okay. What's the purpose of having a control model?
Amanda Carter (06:11:25):
Because they need a control before they test everything that's on the hands. They want to control that's on the scene.
State (06:11:30):
I understand. All right. So how do you physically go about collecting or performing this particular... Had you performed this particular GSR test prior to that date?
Amanda Carter (06:11:42):
Yes, sir.
State (06:11:44):
Okay. So this wasn't the first time you've done this test?
Amanda Carter (06:11:45):
It wasn't the first time, but I still followed the directions step by step to err on the side of caution.
State (06:11:50):
Right. Were you familiar with this test before that day?
Amanda Carter (06:11:54):
Yes, sir.
State (06:11:57):
And tell the jury, please, just give the jury an idea of how you would perform this test.
Amanda Carter (06:12:03):
The typical directions for performing the left and right, it's not quite like a cotton swab. It's more of an applicator that you dab on the hand in areas. It tells you specifically how many times to dab it. I believe it tells how many times to dab it, where to dab it, and then you put it back into the container with the corresponding hand that you did.
State (06:12:26):
So you are collecting this evidence for preservation, but you don't make any findings, positive, negative?
Amanda Carter (06:12:33):
No, sir. I do not.
State (06:12:35):
And, as Mr. Steel said, you just move those items along onto the next person in the chain; is that correct?
Amanda Carter (06:12:39):
Yes, sir.
State (06:12:40):
Did you do that?
Amanda Carter (06:12:40):
Yes, sir. I did.
State (06:12:43):
Do you have any reason to believe that your execution of this test was compromised by your failure to follow the directions, the atmospheric conditions, anything else on the scene?
Amanda Carter (06:12:54):
No, sir. None at all.
State (06:12:59):
Okay. If you could please help me repackage these. I'm sorry.
Amanda Carter (06:13:02):
That's okay.
State (06:13:03):
I may be able to get it. I think I got it. I'll mark these 1A, 1B later. I got it. Thank you. You done with that?
Amanda Carter (06:13:15):
Yes, sir. I am. Thank you.
State (06:13:21):
Sure. And specifically regarding GSR test on this defendant, you were not able to do that on this defendant because she had consented to be removed from the scene; is that right?
Amanda Carter (06:13:31):
She was gone from the scene when I arrived. Yes, sir.
State (06:13:35):
Similarly, you were unable to photograph her clothing or blood on her skin or her hair or face or wherever she may have contended there was blood because she had agreed to go to the hospital to leave the scene; is that right?
Amanda Carter (06:13:45):
Yes, sir. That's correct.
State (06:13:51):
Getting into a little bit about DNA, obviously you're not a DNA expert or an analyst. You never worked in that area?
Amanda Carter (06:13:57):
No, sir.
State (06:13:58):
But Mr. Steel was able to ask you some questions about DNA. If this victim, Mr. Akers, had ever touched that weapon ever, is it possible DNA still could have been on the gun by 12-22-19?
Amanda Carter (06:14:15):
Yes, sir.
State (06:14:16):
Not necessarily that he touched it that day, but if he had ever touched it, is it possible that it still could have been there?
Amanda Carter (06:14:21):
Yes, sir.
State (06:14:24):
So if there were DNA evidence on the gun, would it necessarily admit that the gun was manipulated by that victim on that date?
Amanda Carter (06:14:31):
No, sir.
State (06:14:33):
Same with fingerprints?
Amanda Carter (06:14:34):
Yes, sir.
State (06:14:36):
Can DNA evidence, to your knowledge... Mr. Steel used an example, I believe, of a pen. He said he touched a pen, dropped a pen, his DNA was probably on the pen. Can that DNA evidence be wiped off?
Amanda Carter (06:14:50):
I don't know.
State (06:14:50):
Come off?
Amanda Carter (06:14:52):
I don't know if he could get it all off or not, sir.
State (06:14:54):
Can fingerprints be wiped off?
Amanda Carter (06:14:57):
They can be smeared beyond the point of recognition, yes.
State (06:15:01):
Would you have expected the defendant's DNA to be on that weapon for knowledge that she had, according to her, picked up the gun and thrown it?
Amanda Carter (06:15:10):
I had no knowledge of that.
State (06:15:11):
You didn't know that? Okay. Would you expect her fingerprints to be on the gun, based on your limited knowledge of fingerprints? But you have been a crime scene investigator processor. Do you expect her fingerprints to possibly be on the gun if she says she picked it up and threw it?
Amanda Carter (06:15:26):
Yes, sir.
State (06:15:27):
It's possible?
Amanda Carter (06:15:28):
Yes, sir.
State (06:15:57):
I'm going to get back to the McDonald's cup just briefly. And the defense and Mr. Steel asked you, the Honorable Mr. Steel asked you, you don't know if that drink, the cup, was placed gently on the floor or if it fell on the floor, if it was knocked on the floor. You don't know; is that right?
Amanda Carter (06:16:20):
Correct.
State (06:16:21):
Okay. You don't know if Mr. Akers was holding that cup at any time during that evening, do you?
Amanda Carter (06:16:30):
I can't say.
State (06:16:30):
And you don't know if he was holding that cup when he was shot, which would've caused loss of total motor control and might have dropped that cup right there where it was?
Amanda Carter (06:16:39):
I don't know.
State (06:16:42):
You don't know?
Amanda Carter (06:16:43):
No, sir.
State (06:16:43):
Same with the bag. You don't know if he was holding the bag shot and the bag just fell. You don't know?
Amanda Carter (06:16:46):
Correct.
State (06:16:53):
Was there any defect in the cup to the point where it was... Let's use my water bottle here to let a little air out so it can be a little bit manipulated. Did you see anything like there was a giant dent in the cup?
Amanda Carter (06:17:05):
No, sir.
State (06:17:07):
Somebody that wasn't careful as you would be that walked by, somebody processing the scene or coming through, that might have kicked it?
Amanda Carter (06:17:14):
I did not.
State (06:17:14):
Didn't see anything like that?
Amanda Carter (06:17:15):
No, sir.
State (06:17:17):
Did you see anything like a dent or defect where somebody might have stepped on the cup, some EMT or police officer, anything like that?
Amanda Carter (06:17:24):
No, sir.
State (06:17:48):
Have you ever processed scenes or come across scenes in your work in law enforcement where a suspect or a person later determined to be a suspect was still on the scene?
Amanda Carter (06:18:00):
What do you mean? Still on the scene while I was processing it?
State (06:18:02):
Or I know you've worked in other areas of law enforcement. Have you been on scene when a suspect or a person later determined to be a suspect was still there?
Amanda Carter (06:18:10):
They were still there, but I never allowed them in my area that I'm processing.
State (06:18:15):
But you've come across-
Amanda Carter (06:18:16):
Yes.
State (06:18:18):
You ever seen suspects upset on the scene?
Amanda Carter (06:18:20):
Yes.
State (06:18:22):
Mr. Steel asked you, I believe, he asked you, went into a big kind of a hypothetical. He said someone who had just seen their husband put a gun to their nostril, fire it, the person who tried to stop them from firing it, that would be mentally upsetting. Do you remember him asking you that, be mentally upsetting?
Amanda Carter (06:18:50):
Yes, sir.
State (06:18:53):
Okay. Do you think a spouse who made the determination to shoot her husband in the head would be mentally upsetting?
Amanda Carter (06:18:59):
Yes, sir.
State (06:19:04):
Mr. Steel also used the term, do you think that would be emotionally upsetting? Do you think a spouse who had only formulated thoughts of violence toward the husband, but then carried it out on 12-22-19, do you think that might be emotionally upsetting to somebody?
Amanda Carter (06:19:19):
Yes, sir.
State (06:19:21):
Do you think that might be, what Mr. Steel used, spiritually upsetting to somebody?
Amanda Carter (06:19:26):
Yes, sir.
State (06:19:27):
If someone had formulated thoughts of doing the almost unthinkable to their spouse and then actually carried it out on 12-22-19, do you think once that became reality and this man's brain and blood and bone are protruding out of his face, do you think that could cause someone to possibly want to vomit?
Amanda Carter (06:19:46):
Yes, sir.
State (06:19:47):
Transitioning into what was planned to now what has happened?
Amanda Carter (06:19:51):
Yes, sir.
State (06:20:19):
I want to show you Defense Exhibit 41, Defendant's 41. And this is my copy, but it's only because I don't want to search and take up the time to search for this original, but my copy is of 41. May I approach the witness, please?
Judge Bucci (06:20:33):
You may.
State (06:20:35):
And you've seen this and we've gone over it, but just to orient you what I'm looking at, and I'll put it on the screen.
Amanda Carter (06:20:40):
Yes, sir.
State (06:20:42):
May I publish to the jury 41? It's in evidence as Defendant's 41.
Judge Bucci (06:20:45):
Yes.
State (06:20:46):
Thank you. All right. That's fine, Mr. Burke. So you said this is a fair and accurate depiction of the final resting place of Mr. Akers as you saw on that date; is that right?
Amanda Carter (06:21:12):
Yes, sir.
State (06:21:14):
Do you see this drawstring right here?
Amanda Carter (06:21:15):
Yes, sir.
State (06:21:16):
Did you manipulate that drawstring in any way before you took this picture?
Amanda Carter (06:21:21):
No, sir.
State (06:21:22):
Was it loose and untied like that when you arrived on scene?
Amanda Carter (06:21:25):
That's exactly how it was when I arrived on scene.
State (06:21:30):
I'm way over here, so I didn't hear you.
Amanda Carter (06:21:32):
That's exactly how it was when I arrived on scene.
State (06:21:35):
Okay. You see his pants kind of... These little wrinkles up and down the legs and toward the waist and it's kind of wrinkly and bunched up, if you will?
Amanda Carter (06:21:43):
Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
State (06:21:44):
Would you characterize these as kind of loose fitting?
Amanda Carter (06:21:47):
Yes, sir.
State (06:21:48):
Is that how they were when you were there?
Amanda Carter (06:21:51):
That's exactly how it was when I arrived.
State (06:21:53):
Do you see any kind of belt here?
Amanda Carter (06:21:57):
No, sir.
State (06:21:58):
Do you see anything a holster could have been attached to right here?
Amanda Carter (06:22:02):
No, sir.
State (06:22:12):
So we had cell phone, or I'm sorry, wallet here. I'm sorry. Wallet here on his left pocket, right?
Amanda Carter (06:22:22):
Yes, sir.
State (06:22:23):
We had phone over here, keys over here, right pocket, correct?
Amanda Carter (06:22:27):
Yes, sir. No, not the keys. The phone.
State (06:22:30):
Where were the keys?
Amanda Carter (06:22:33):
They were-
State (06:22:33):
I'm sorry. They were on the floor?
Amanda Carter (06:22:34):
Yes, sir.
State (06:22:35):
We see wallet, phone here, on his right pocket, correct?
Amanda Carter (06:22:40):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:22:41):
Well, I'm going to do it on recross. That's fine.
State (06:22:46):
Okay. May I publish what's been admitted into evidence as Defense Exhibit 30?
Judge Bucci (06:22:53):
You may.
State (06:22:54):
See this photograph? You see a phone there in his pocket?
Amanda Carter (06:23:01):
Yes, sir.
State (06:23:01):
Okay. So right pocket, phone; is that right?
Amanda Carter (06:23:07):
Yes.
State (06:23:08):
And left pocket, wallet?
Amanda Carter (06:23:10):
Yes.
State (06:23:13):
Now, when this decedent went into a body bag, was his clothing still on his body?
Amanda Carter (06:23:25):
Yes, sir.
State (06:23:25):
Okay. Did anybody... Did you, I'll just say you, did you in any way pull these pants down to take any kind of photo here? Was it your purpose to pull these pants down to show the buttocks to get some kind of evidentiary photo?
Amanda Carter (06:23:48):
So I don't recall if they were pulled down that far in the beginning.
State (06:23:55):
Okay.
Amanda Carter (06:23:56):
And that would be Coroner Eberhart on the other side that would've moved the clothing.
State (06:24:03):
Do you recognize anything here that you're trying to photo for evidentiary value other than maybe his phone?
Amanda Carter (06:24:09):
Just photographs of him.
State (06:24:11):
Okay. Is it possible that these pants were so loose fitting that when he was turned, they just kind of came down?
Amanda Carter (06:24:18):
It's possible. I can't say. I didn't see him standing up with his clothes on.
State (06:24:26):
And here's another photo, State's Exhibit 17. Sorry, Defense Exhibit 17. Defendant's 17. I'll show you that. We see again here from another angle, kind of the wrinkles and the bagginess, the bunched-up nature of the pants here. You see that?
Amanda Carter (06:24:47):
Yes, sir.
State (06:24:50):
Mr. Steel calls him jogging pants. Obviously you look at me, you look at him, he jogs and I don't. So I call them sweatpants. That's what I call them. Would you say that's kind of what they were?
Amanda Carter (06:25:00):
That's what they appear to be.
State (06:25:02):
Okay. They weren't loose-
Amanda Carter (06:25:00):
That's what they appear to be.
State (06:25:02):
Okay. They weren't loose. They weren't tight, tight-fitting. Were they tight-fitting pants?
Amanda Carter (06:25:08):
No, sir.
State (06:25:08):
Oh, and thank you.
Judge Dean Bucci (06:25:08):
Who needs a break at this moment?
State (06:25:08):
Nobody Judge.
Brian Steel (06:26:11):
I may have heard this wrong or I'm sure it was just a slip of the tongue, a mistake, but the left pant pocket, the left pant pocket had the wallet.
Amanda Carter (06:26:26):
His left side had his wallet. His right side had his cell phone.
Brian Steel (06:26:30):
And the lighter?
Amanda Carter (06:26:31):
And the lighter. Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:26:33):
Okay. I thought I heard something different that those were all in the right-hand side. I just want to make sure that it's accurate for the jurors. You were asked a few questions about is there a belt or something to maybe harness a holster, a gun holster?
Amanda Carter (06:26:54):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:26:57):
A person can have a weapon in or out of its holster and just carry those items, right?
Amanda Carter (06:27:04):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:27:05):
And a .22 caliber, and the jury saw it, that's a small gun, small in size.
Amanda Carter (06:27:11):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:27:12):
And the hoodie, do you remember it had a pocket? And if you don't know what I'm talking about, I can put my hands and touch my hands together.
Amanda Carter (06:27:19):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:27:21):
And that could store an item as well, right?
Amanda Carter (06:27:24):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:27:25):
That acts as an additional apparatus to hold things?
Amanda Carter (06:27:30):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:27:32):
As far as Ms. Lacy Boles' consenting to go to the hospital, I mean, when people have to go to hospital and law enforcement's there and ambulance are there, they may be recommended to go to a hospital. Right?
Amanda Carter (06:27:52):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:27:53):
I mean, EMTs and law enforcement are trained to know when somebody should get medical help, right?
Amanda Carter (06:27:58):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:27:59):
But nothing stops law enforcement from doing a gunshot residue test on someone going to the hospital, does it?
Amanda Carter (06:28:06):
I wouldn't feel that it would stop anyone from doing a GSR kit unless they don't know how to do it.
Brian Steel (06:28:14):
Right, I mean, and the same thing about collecting a clothing and photographing. I mean, the fact that Ms. Boles is taken to hospital, all those things could have been done at the house where this tragedy occurred, right?
Amanda Carter (06:28:26):
I can't speak for the deputies that were there prior to my arrival.
Brian Steel (06:28:29):
I'm not asking you to speak for anybody.
Amanda Carter (06:28:29):
Or their training.
Brian Steel (06:28:30):
I'm not asking you to train her. I'm just saying it could be done if somebody wanted to, right?
Amanda Carter (06:28:38):
Could be if they had the training and ability to do it. Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:28:40):
How about a photograph with a cell phone?
Amanda Carter (06:28:44):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:28:45):
And even in the ambulance?
Amanda Carter (06:28:48):
I don't know who was in the ambulance with her or if a deputy was in the ambulance with her, and I definitely can't speak for their staff.
Brian Steel (06:28:56):
And even in the hospital when the police are with her?
Amanda Carter (06:28:58):
Yes, sir.
Brian Steel (06:28:59):
Okay. I don't have any other questions. Thank you, Your Honor.
State (06:29:05):
My final question, may I, Your Honor? My final question, ma'am, is your knowledge of GSR collection, your knowledge of the application of the GSR test, do you think it'd be more or less likely to discover GSR on a subject who had gone to the hospital and washed their hands with that soap that they have at the hospital?
Brian Steel (06:29:23):
I will...
Judge Dean Bucci (06:29:25):
It's fine. Go ahead.
State (06:29:28):
Do you understand my question?
Amanda Carter (06:29:29):
I think it could reduce any positive results, but I can't... That would be a scientist question. They could give you specifics on that, sir.
State (06:29:38):
But with your training and your application-
Amanda Carter (06:29:41):
It would alter the results.
State (06:29:43):
Thank you.
Judge Dean Bucci (06:29:46):
Any recross?
Brian Steel (06:29:47):
No.
Judge Dean Bucci (06:29:48):
All right. She'd be excused.
State (06:29:50):
No objection, sir.
Judge Dean Bucci (06:29:51):
All right. Free to go. Thank you very much.
Amanda Carter (06:29:51):
Yes, sir.
Judge Dean Bucci (06:29:53):
At this point, we'll take a 10-minute break. Over here.
Speaker 16 (06:29:54):
I forgot to tell you, I'm sorry.
Judge Dean Bucci (06:29:54):
Okay. Are we ready for jury coming?
Lawyer (06:29:54):
Yes, Your Honor.
Judge Dean Bucci (06:29:54):
All right. Oh, you want to call your next witness?
Lawyer (06:45:33):
Yes, Your Honor. State calls Detective Ogden.
Judge Dean Bucci (06:46:20):
Good afternoon. I'll swear you in. If you'll raise your right hand and receive an oath.
Thomas Ogden. (06:46:23):
Yes, sir.
Judge Dean Bucci (06:46:24):
Do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give in the matter pending before the court will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Thomas Ogden. (06:46:30):
Yes, sir.
Judge Dean Bucci (06:46:30):
Please have a seat.
Lawyer (06:46:40):
Could you state your name please, sir?
Thomas Ogden. (06:46:41):
Thomas Ogden.
Lawyer (06:46:44):
And how are you employed?
Thomas Ogden. (06:46:46):
With the Paulding County Sheriff's Office.
Lawyer (06:46:48):
And how long have you been so employed?
Thomas Ogden. (06:46:51):
11 years.
Lawyer (06:46:54):
And what has been your duties while you've been employed with the Paulding County Sheriff's Office?
Thomas Ogden. (06:47:01):
As a patrol officer, a detective, and I currently am in the inmate workforce in the jail.
Lawyer (06:47:16):
Now, what type of training have you had as a law enforcement officer?
Thomas Ogden. (06:47:23):
I've had FTO training, field training officer. I recently completed the senior deputy program. I also have my intermediate and advanced certificates for law enforcement.
Lawyer (06:47:39):
Well, when did you actually start with the Paulding County Sheriff's Office?
Thomas Ogden. (06:47:45):
September 15th, 2015.
Lawyer (06:47:52):
September 15th of 2015. Did you have any law enforcement experience prior to coming to Paulding County Sheriff's Office?
(06:47:59)
Yes, sir. And what did you do prior to coming to Paulding County Sheriff's Office?
Thomas Ogden. (06:48:04):
I started off policing in 2006 with the Gwinnett County Police Department, and then left there in 2009, and then went to the Emanuel County... I'm sorry, Swainsboro Police Department in 2013, then the Emanuel County Sheriff's Office in 2013, and then here in 2015.
Lawyer (06:48:30):
Okay. So, you went from Gwinnett County, you were in Swainsboro before Gwinnett County?
Thomas Ogden. (06:48:41):
No, Gwinnett County first.
Lawyer (06:48:41):
Okay.
Thomas Ogden. (06:48:42):
Then Swainsboro.
Lawyer (06:48:43):
Okay. Then Swainsboro.
Thomas Ogden. (06:48:44):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (06:48:46):
And then what happened after Swainsboro?
Thomas Ogden. (06:48:49):
I went to the Emanuel County Sheriff's Office.
Lawyer (06:48:51):
How do you spell that?
Thomas Ogden. (06:48:52):
E-M-A-N-U-E-L.
Lawyer (06:48:58):
Okay. And Swainsboro was what year did you say?
Thomas Ogden. (06:49:01):
2013.
Lawyer (06:49:02):
2013. And Emanuel County was what year?
Thomas Ogden. (06:49:06):
2013 as well.
Lawyer (06:49:07):
2013 as well. Okay. Well, so you had Emanuel County first, then you went to Swainsboro, then you went to Gwinnett County, then you came to Paulding County Sheriff's Office, is that correct?
Thomas Ogden. (06:49:19):
No, sir.
Lawyer (06:49:20):
Okay.
Thomas Ogden. (06:49:20):
Gwinnett County Police first.
Lawyer (06:49:23):
That's where you first started police work.
Thomas Ogden. (06:49:25):
First started police work.
Lawyer (06:49:26):
Okay. And that was in 2006?
Thomas Ogden. (06:49:28):
Correct. Yes, sir.
Lawyer (06:49:29):
Okay. Okay. And then what did you do?
Thomas Ogden. (06:49:33):
Then went to the Swainsboro Police Department.
Lawyer (06:49:36):
Okay. And that was in 2013? Yes, sir. And then you went to Emanuel County in 2013?
Thomas Ogden. (06:49:42):
Correct.
Lawyer (06:49:44):
Then you went to Paulding County Sheriff's Office. Well, that was pretty easy. So, let's go back to 2006 when Gwinnett County. What did you do to qualify to become a police officer in Gwinnett County?
Thomas Ogden. (06:50:00):
I completed the Gwinnett County, the academy.
Lawyer (06:50:09):
And what did that consist of?
Thomas Ogden. (06:50:12):
It was about six months of training, learning how to become a police officer.
Lawyer (06:50:19):
And how long was the training? How many days a week or what was it?
Thomas Ogden. (06:50:24):
It was five days a week.
Lawyer (06:50:26):
So, five days a week from when to when?
Thomas Ogden. (06:50:29):
That was from March or April of 2006 to October of 2006.
Lawyer (06:50:39):
Okay. And you said five days a week. What were the hours of the days of the week and what days of the week was the training?
Thomas Ogden. (06:50:49):
It was Monday through Friday, and generally it was about 7:00, 8:00 AM to about 5:00 PM.
Lawyer (06:51:03):
Okay. So, when you finished that training there at the Gwinnett County Academy, what happened after that?
Thomas Ogden. (06:51:12):
I began the FTO program, the field training program with Gwinnett.
Lawyer (06:51:19):
And you went to the field training program, and what is exactly a field training program?
Thomas Ogden. (06:51:27):
Basically, you ride with another officer, generally another experienced officer, and you learn hands-on how to do the job by riding with them.
Lawyer (06:51:39):
And how long does that last?
Thomas Ogden. (06:51:42):
Approximately three months.
Lawyer (06:51:46):
And at the end of three months, what happens at that point?
Thomas Ogden. (06:51:50):
At that point, as long as you pass everything, you are good to go to police on your own.
Lawyer (06:51:55):
So, you are a police officer able to ride by yourself at that point?
Thomas Ogden. (06:52:01):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (06:52:04):
Now, when, if ever, did you become POST-certified, and what does that mean?
Thomas Ogden. (06:52:11):
I became POST-certified in 2006 when I completed the Gwinnett County Academy, Police Academy.
Lawyer (06:52:21):
So, 2006, you were POST-certified upon completion of the academy?
Thomas Ogden. (06:52:26):
Correct. Yes, sir.
Lawyer (06:52:27):
And then after you got your POST certification, what happened next?
Thomas Ogden. (06:52:32):
That's when you do the FTO program.
Lawyer (06:52:34):
All right. Now, what kind of job assignment did you have at that point when you first started in 2006?
Thomas Ogden. (06:52:46):
I was a patrol officer.
Lawyer (06:52:48):
And what does that mean?
Thomas Ogden. (06:52:50):
Basically, I handle all 911 calls, traffic from accidents to traffic stops, to any type of 911 call that may come in that day.
Lawyer (06:53:03):
And how long were you a patrol officer in Gwinnett County?
Thomas Ogden. (06:53:08):
Approximately three years.
Lawyer (06:53:09):
And then after three years of being a patrol officer in Gwinnett County, what happened then?
Thomas Ogden. (06:53:20):
Then I went to Swainsboro Police Department and became a police officer there, patrol as well.
Lawyer (06:53:33):
Okay. So, you were a patrol officer in Swainsboro then?
Thomas Ogden. (06:53:36):
Yes.
Lawyer (06:53:38):
And did you have to go through retraining again or were you already POST-certified and everything was good to go?
Thomas Ogden. (06:53:42):
Already POST-certified, everything was good to go.
Lawyer (06:53:46):
And how long were you a patrol officer in Swainsboro?
Thomas Ogden. (06:53:49):
There, maybe four or five months.
Lawyer (06:53:56):
And then from the four to five months in Swainsboro, your next stop was Emanuel County?
Thomas Ogden. (06:54:07):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (06:54:09):
And how long were you in Emanuel County?
Thomas Ogden. (06:54:11):
Approximately three years.
Lawyer (06:54:18):
And what job did you have in Emanuel County for three years?
Thomas Ogden. (06:54:23):
I was pulled over there to help start up their SRO program, school resource officer program, and then I also did patrol over there as well.
Lawyer (06:54:34):
So, you were, did you say an SRO?
Thomas Ogden. (06:54:38):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (06:54:39):
And you were starting the program?
Thomas Ogden. (06:54:41):
I helped. The chief deputy over there was starting it up and he asked me and another officer to help get it started.
Lawyer (06:54:50):
Okay. And did you in fact help get it started?
Thomas Ogden. (06:54:53):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (06:54:53):
And how long were you with the SRO program?
Thomas Ogden. (06:54:56):
That was about the amount of time I was there, about three years.
Lawyer (06:55:00):
And while you were an SRO... What exactly is an SRO program?
Thomas Ogden. (06:55:06):
It's a school resource officer, basically inside the schools, policing, helping kids, talking to kids.
Lawyer (06:55:15):
Okay. Now, you did that for three years and that was in Emanuel County. Now, did you do anything in addition to the SRO program at this time?
Thomas Ogden. (06:55:25):
Yes, sir. I was also a patrol officer.
Lawyer (06:55:27):
So, you were a patrol officer and an SRO officer at that time?
Thomas Ogden. (06:55:33):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (06:55:37):
So, now it's about three years later and you decide to come to Paulding County Sheriff's Office?
Thomas Ogden. (06:55:45):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (06:55:46):
And when did you come to the Paulding County Sheriff's Office?
Thomas Ogden. (06:55:51):
September of 2015.
Lawyer (06:55:56):
And when you came to Paulding County in September of 2015, what was your job assignment then?
Thomas Ogden. (06:56:03):
Patrol deputy.
Lawyer (06:56:07):
And were you still a POST-certified law enforcement officer at that point?
Thomas Ogden. (06:56:11):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (06:56:12):
And you've kept up your training all the years you've been a patrol officer and working in the sheriff's office at Paulding County, correct?
Thomas Ogden. (06:56:21):
Correct.
Lawyer (06:56:22):
Okay. Are you still POST-certified at this moment?
Thomas Ogden. (06:56:25):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (06:56:27):
Okay. Now, you're working in Paulding County Sheriff's Office, you're a patrol deputy. And how does a patrol deputy differ from a patrol officer?
Thomas Ogden. (06:56:39):
There's no difference. Police departments are generally officers and sheriff's office are generally deputies.
Lawyer (06:56:46):
And as a patrol deputy, how long did you serve as a patrol deputy?
Thomas Ogden. (06:56:59):
Just probably about, I'm trying to think, about nine years, eight or nine years.
Lawyer (06:57:07):
And then what, if anything, did you do for the Paulding County Sheriff's Office?
Thomas Ogden. (06:57:12):
I did a year in CID, which is Criminal Investigations Division.
Lawyer (06:57:20):
Criminal Investigations Division. What is that?
Thomas Ogden. (06:57:26):
Detective work.
Lawyer (06:57:30):
Now, had you ever done detective work before or was this your first time being a detective?
Thomas Ogden. (06:57:35):
This was the first time.
Lawyer (06:57:37):
And when did that start?
Thomas Ogden. (06:57:42):
Probably May, April of 2019, I think it was.
Lawyer (06:57:54):
April or May of 2019 is the first time you started being a detective?
Thomas Ogden. (06:57:57):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (06:57:57):
Okay. Now, to be a detective, did you have to have additional training?
Thomas Ogden. (06:58:06):
I did not. I basically transferred over. Most of my training is on the patrol level.
Lawyer (06:58:16):
And how long were you a detective?
Thomas Ogden. (06:58:21):
Approximately one year.
Lawyer (06:58:28):
And why did you decide to no longer be a detective?
Thomas Ogden. (06:58:34):
So, my wife was having struggles with her pregnancy, so it was easier for me to go to back to patrol on a shift schedule instead of a Monday to Friday schedule.
Lawyer (06:58:50):
Now, how does being a patrol deputy differ from being a detective as far as the hours demanded on your time and when they occur? Is there a difference between a patrol officer and being a detective?
Thomas Ogden. (06:59:06):
Yes, sir. So, detectives generally, for the most part, will work Monday through Friday, minus if you're an on-call detective. And a patrol deputy out here, it's a rotating shift schedule, so it's 12-hour shifts, but you also will have days off during the week. So, if I work like a Monday, Tuesday, I'll be off Wednesday, Thursday, and then Wednesday, Friday, or I'm sorry, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, I'd work and then it flips the next week.
Lawyer (06:59:37):
So, you would have 12-hour days, three days one week, two days the next week? Is that what you were saying?
Thomas Ogden. (06:59:43):
Correct. Yes, sir.
Lawyer (06:59:48):
Okay. Now, and as a patrol officer, it's strictly an 8-hour shift?
Thomas Ogden. (06:59:53):
12-hour shift.
Lawyer (06:59:54):
It's a 12-hour shift as a patrol officer as well?
Thomas Ogden. (06:59:57):
For a patrol officer, it's 12 hours.
Lawyer (06:59:59):
Okay. And as a detective, it's how long?
Thomas Ogden. (07:00:01):
Generally about eight hours.
Lawyer (07:00:03):
Eight hours...
Lawyer (07:00:00):
And as a detective, it's how long?
Thomas Ogden. (07:00:01):
Generally about eight hours.
Lawyer (07:00:03):
Eight hours?
Thomas Ogden. (07:00:04):
Correct.
Lawyer (07:00:04):
Eight hours. Well, it sounds like a detective is less hours. If it's eight hours, then less demanding if you're Monday through Friday.
Thomas Ogden. (07:00:12):
That's true. Because doctor's appointments we had to keep going to. It was easier for me to take maybe two or three days off during the week and have the entire week off instead of having to take five days off and having the time off.
Lawyer (07:00:26):
So to accommodate the healthcare of your wife, it was easier for you to take that time off as a patrol officer rather than a detective?
Thomas Ogden. (07:00:35):
Correct.
Lawyer (07:00:36):
Now, if something happens and you are the lead detective, and by something I'm talking about somebody gets killed and it looks like it's a crime, how does that affect your hours as a lead detective? What happens then?
Thomas Ogden. (07:00:59):
Everything varies. I mean, obviously you go out to the scene, handle what needs to be handled out there, whether it's evidence collection or trying to identify people involved in the case. Everything just dictates and varies on each call.
Lawyer (07:01:21):
Now you started as a... I guess you were a lead detective when you started in the detective unit in CID?
Thomas Ogden. (07:01:32):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:01:34):
Okay. And you started in... Did you say in May?
Thomas Ogden. (07:01:38):
It's April or May of 2019.
Lawyer (07:01:39):
April, May of 2019.
Thomas Ogden. (07:01:42):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:01:43):
Okay. So now you've been a detective a few months. It's now December of 2019. Did you have occasion to be called to a particular scene on December 22nd of 2019?
Thomas Ogden. (07:02:04):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:02:06):
And where did you get called to?
Thomas Ogden. (07:02:09):
I was called to 83 Braemill Court. It's in Paulding County.
Lawyer (07:02:15):
83 Braemill Court?
Thomas Ogden. (07:02:18):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:02:19):
And that is in Paulding County, you say?
Thomas Ogden. (07:02:22):
Correct.
Lawyer (07:02:24):
So do you recall approximately what time of day it was you were called there?
Thomas Ogden. (07:02:30):
It was after midnight.
Lawyer (07:02:32):
Okay. So how did you get alerted to come to this particular scene?
Thomas Ogden. (07:02:39):
The patrol supervisor at the time was Captain Pace, and he gave me a phone call of a possible suicide or they had a deceased person. They basically told me that the male was found deceased in the basement and his wife was in the room with him, is what I was told over the phone.
Lawyer (07:03:07):
How did you get picked to come to this particular crime scene at this particular time?
Thomas Ogden. (07:03:12):
There's just a rotation. It was just my turn to be the on-call person.
Lawyer (07:03:16):
And what does that mean, on call detective? What does that mean?
Thomas Ogden. (07:03:21):
Generally, if any crime or anything happens that a detective is needed, there's generally one of us that will go out, whether it's after hours or the weekend, and generally that lasts about a week before a different detective would take over.
Lawyer (07:03:40):
Now, when you got to the scene at Braemill Court, how many homicide cases had you worked at this point?
Thomas Ogden. (07:03:53):
None.
Lawyer (07:03:55):
None?
Thomas Ogden. (07:03:55):
Correct.
Lawyer (07:03:58):
Okay. So you get to this location and what do you observe when you arrive on the scene?
Thomas Ogden. (07:04:09):
I arrived on scene. I met with Captain Pace. He was starting to tell me what was going on. I noticed a female being walked out of the house by EMS personnel from Metro Ambulance, and they ended up putting her in the ambulance and taking her to the hospital as I literally just walked on scene with Captain Pace.
Lawyer (07:04:32):
Well, you said you saw a female.
Thomas Ogden. (07:04:34):
Correct.
Lawyer (07:04:36):
Are you able to recognize the female you saw on December 22nd, 2019 in this courtroom today that you saw at that particular moment when you arrived on the scene?
Thomas Ogden. (07:04:48):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:04:49):
Could you point her out and describe what she's wearing?
Thomas Ogden. (07:04:53):
It's the lady wearing white jacket, dark hair.
Lawyer (07:04:58):
Let the record reflect he's identified the defendant, Lacy Boles. And so you arrive on the scene, this defendant is being led out of the scene, and what do you do next?
Thomas Ogden. (07:05:13):
I asked Captain Pace who that was and was there a reason she was going to the hospital. He told me that she was the wife of the deceased, Daniel Akers, and that she was very hysterical and EMS felt like that she needed to go to the hospital.
Lawyer (07:05:36):
So did you attempt to talk to this lady at all?
Thomas Ogden. (07:05:41):
Not at that time. No, sir.
Lawyer (07:05:46):
And you are a corporal now or...
Thomas Ogden. (07:05:56):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:06:08):
Okay. Deputy Ogden, you were the detective at this particular point, is that correct?
Thomas Ogden. (07:06:14):
Correct.
Lawyer (07:06:15):
And what rank is a detective?
Thomas Ogden. (07:06:18):
It's its own rank of detective. It's just its own.
Lawyer (07:06:24):
Okay. So let me show you what has previously been marked for identification as State's Exhibit Number 200, and ask you if you are familiar with that document.
Thomas Ogden. (07:06:35):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:06:37):
And what is State's Exhibit Number 200?
Thomas Ogden. (07:06:40):
It's the log sheet for the incident.
Lawyer (07:06:49):
Now, when you say a log sheet for the incident, what is that for?
Thomas Ogden. (07:06:57):
So that is for anybody that comes on scene, into the crime scene. They have to be logged in at any time that they come into that scene.
Lawyer (07:07:07):
And this log sheet, you are able to determine when it was started, is that correct?
Thomas Ogden. (07:07:17):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:07:18):
And is this part of something you keep up with as the lead detective?
Thomas Ogden. (07:07:23):
That's usually going to be the patrol side. They'll keep up with the log sheet and once it's completed, it would be put into the case file.
Lawyer (07:07:33):
Is that something as a lead detective that you want to know about and that you want to have?
Thomas Ogden. (07:07:38):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:07:39):
And why is that?
Thomas Ogden. (07:07:41):
You want to know who's been on scene and who may have been, in this case, in the house... In the residence of this house.
Lawyer (07:07:50):
Now, the first name on this log sheet is... It looks like Brett Miller. Do you know that officer?
Thomas Ogden. (07:07:58):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:08:00):
And then there's a number of names down here, and then as it comes down, at the very bottom of the sheet...
(07:08:11)
Can you scoot that up so we can keep the bottom at the top so it can be more visible for the jury?
(07:08:21)
Okay. Now at the very bottom of the sheet, do you recognize this name?
Thomas Ogden. (07:08:29):
Yes, sir. That's my name.
Lawyer (07:08:30):
Okay. Is this your signature?
Thomas Ogden. (07:08:32):
That is my signature.
Lawyer (07:08:34):
All right. And you get there at what time?
Thomas Ogden. (07:08:39):
At 1:33 in the morning.
Lawyer (07:08:43):
Okay. And then you leave the scene at what time?
Thomas Ogden. (07:08:46):
2:16 in the morning.
Lawyer (07:08:50):
Now, when you arrive on this scene, obviously you signed in or had someone sign you in on the log sheet; is that correct?
Thomas Ogden. (07:09:00):
Correct.
Lawyer (07:09:02):
And the purpose of the log sheet is to make sure what happens concerning the crime scene?
Thomas Ogden. (07:09:09):
Knowing who comes in and leaves the crime scene.
Lawyer (07:09:13):
Well, what about the crime scene being compromised or in some way contaminated in some fashion? Is the log sheet for that as well?
Thomas Ogden. (07:09:25):
It would tell anybody who would be in that residence, yes.
Lawyer (07:09:28):
So is it basically to secure the scene?
Thomas Ogden. (07:09:32):
Correct. Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:09:34):
Okay. So as a detective coming on the scene, you see this log sheet, you sign in, and then what, if anything, is your job once you arrive on the scene? What are you supposed to be doing?
Thomas Ogden. (07:09:51):
So at that point, I'm trying to figure out what has happened, whether there's been a crime that's occurred or whether this being a death investigation at this point, I'm looking at evidence. I'm looking for anything valuable that may be to this case, whether it's other people on scene, weapons. In this case, there was a deceased person laying in the basement, so I'm trying to figure out what occurred.
Lawyer (07:10:21):
Okay. Now you say a deceased person in the basement. Did you go down there to the basement?
Thomas Ogden. (07:10:28):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:10:31):
And did you observe the body that was in the basement?
Thomas Ogden. (07:10:35):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:10:37):
And when you went down to the basement and you observed the body in the basement, was there anything that gave you concerns about the scene being compromised in any way from what you were observing?
Thomas Ogden. (07:10:51):
No, sir.
Lawyer (07:10:51):
And so you see this body in the basement and what, if anything, do you do at that point?
Thomas Ogden. (07:11:03):
At this point, looking at the deceased to see the cause of the death. I remember there was blood on the face. I couldn't find an entry wound or an exit wound at the time. There was a revolver, a silver revolver with a pearl grip, laying on the inside of his left arm when I was on scene.
Lawyer (07:11:33):
And what, if anything, did you do with regard to the items you saw on the floor by the victim?
Thomas Ogden. (07:11:45):
Those were just left alone while I was there until Detective Carter... When she did get on scene, she would need to take pictures, photographs of the crime scene, basically.
Lawyer (07:12:00):
Okay. Now you say Detective Carter, who was Detective Carter and how did she get on the scene?
Thomas Ogden. (07:12:07):
She was our crime scene technician, so anytime a crime that we may have to collect evidence or need photographs or any evidentiary type of things done, she would be called out to assist with that.
Lawyer (07:12:25):
And who decided to call Detective Carter to come out to the scene?
Thomas Ogden. (07:12:29):
I did.
Lawyer (07:12:31):
And why Detective Carter?
Thomas Ogden. (07:12:34):
She was the on call for the crime scene team, so she was the one I called.
Lawyer (07:12:43):
And did she arrive on the scene?
Thomas Ogden. (07:12:45):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:12:50):
And what, if anything, did you have Detective Carter do?
Thomas Ogden. (07:12:58):
So first I had to go get a consent to search, which I was going to need from Lacy since she was the wife of the deceased. So knowing that she was taken to the hospital... I was told she was taken to Paulding County Hospital. I had to go up there and speak with her.
Lawyer (07:13:19):
Did you in fact go to the hospital?
Thomas Ogden. (07:13:22):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:13:24):
Did you in fact talk to this defendant?
Thomas Ogden. (07:13:28):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:13:30):
And what hospital did you go to?
Thomas Ogden. (07:13:33):
Paulding County Hospital.
Lawyer (07:13:35):
Paulding County Hospital?
Thomas Ogden. (07:13:37):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:13:39):
And is that the Wellstar Hospital?
Thomas Ogden. (07:13:41):
Wellstar, yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:13:42):
Okay. And you got to the hospital, and how long was it from the time you were on the scene approximately till you left to go to the hospital?
Thomas Ogden. (07:13:57):
That might have been a 10, 15 minute drive maybe.
Lawyer (07:14:01):
Okay. So it took you 10 or 15 minutes to get to the hospital?
Thomas Ogden. (07:14:03):
Correct.
Lawyer (07:14:04):
And when you get to the hospital, what, if anything, do you do at that point?
Thomas Ogden. (07:14:09):
At that point, I have a consent to search form that I would need, if she was willing to sign, that she would sign to basically take anything of evidentiary value out of the home with her permission.
Lawyer (07:14:26):
Okay. Well, she's in the hospital. Where do you meet her? Where do you see her in the hospital?
Thomas Ogden. (07:14:36):
They already had her. I had to ask a nurse. She was already admitted into a room, so they showed me which room she was in, and then I went to that room.
Lawyer (07:14:47):
So you went to a room in the hospital?
Thomas Ogden. (07:14:50):
Correct.
Lawyer (07:14:50):
And do you recall who was in that room?
Thomas Ogden. (07:14:53):
Lacy Boles was, and then there was a female and another male in there, which I believe that Lacy later on told me was her daughter and her daughter's boyfriend.
Lawyer (07:15:06):
Okay. So there's three people in the room, and what, if anything, do you do at this point?
Thomas Ogden. (07:15:13):
At this point, I could tell that she'd been crying. She seemed a little bit calmer there, but she was still emotional with everything that have occurred. So I introduced who I was, and I asked her basically if she could tell me what happened that night, and she gave a brief statement, but she was very emotional, so I didn't really go too much farther into it because she was breaking down while she was telling me things that were going on.
Lawyer (07:15:54):
Okay. Well, what do you mean by that?
Thomas Ogden. (07:15:55):
She was explaining basically that she had walked downstairs when she heard Daniel come in, and when she followed him down to the basement, she said that basically he had said something of, "You can't save me," and at that point, he shot himself.
Lawyer (07:16:35):
Well, what was her ability to communicate with regard to the consent to search document?
Thomas Ogden. (07:16:44):
So that form, I basically filled out the portions that I needed to fill out. I read it to her verbatim as it is on the paper, and basically explained to her what it was, and she signed it. She didn't have any issues with us doing what we needed to do.
Lawyer (07:17:17):
So you're at the hospital now, you see this defendant, and were you able to evaluate what she was wearing or looking for anything in particular when you looked at her?
Thomas Ogden. (07:17:36):
As far as what she was wearing, I'm not sure. I remember before I left, Sergeant Miller, who was on scene, told me that she did have blood on her hands, and when I was at the hospital, her hands were cleaned up or washed. There was no blood on her hands.
Lawyer (07:17:56):
So you didn't notice any blood on her hands?
Thomas Ogden. (07:18:01):
Correct.
Lawyer (07:18:03):
What about on her clothes? Did you notice any blood on her clothes?
Thomas Ogden. (07:18:06):
That I don't remember.
Lawyer (07:18:25):
So you're trying to get her to agree to a consent form. Does she eventually agree to a consent to search?
Thomas Ogden. (07:18:36):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:18:37):
Did you have any trouble communicating with her to getting her to understand to enter that consent form and give it to you?
Thomas Ogden. (07:18:45):
No, sir.
Lawyer (07:18:48):
And did she freely and voluntarily give that consent to search?
Thomas Ogden. (07:18:52):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:18:53):
And once you had the consent to search, what, if anything, did you do at that point?
Thomas Ogden. (07:18:58):
At that point, I just let her know that we would need to basically schedule a time for her to come talk to me at the sheriff's office and that I'd be back out at her residence, and that was pretty much it, and then I left the hospital.
Lawyer (07:19:17):
Well, let's back up a minute on that. You said that you were talking to her and she gave you a brief description about what happened. Why didn't you just get a full statement then?
Thomas Ogden. (07:19:35):
At that point, I needed to... I didn't have a recording device with me at the time, so I thought it would be better to talk where I got the sheriff's office in the interview room where we have camera and audio.
Lawyer (07:19:51):
Okay. Well, what about her emotional condition? Did that enter into that decision as well?
Thomas Ogden. (07:19:56):
It did. Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:20:01):
So how long did you interact with her at the hospital?
Thomas Ogden. (07:20:10):
Maybe 20 minutes, if that.
Lawyer (07:20:21):
Okay. And so then you left the hospital. What, if anything, did you do at that point?
Thomas Ogden. (07:20:26):
Once I left the hospital, I went back out to the residence at 83 Braemill Court.
Lawyer (07:20:34):
Well, you're talking to her at the hospital. She's emotional. What was your assessment of her demeanor when you're talking to her at the hospital?
Thomas Ogden. (07:20:50):
At that time, I felt like she was a grieving wife, so trying to communicate, knowing she just lost her husband. I tried to talk as much as I could with her about the stuff, but I just could tell it'd be better suited if we did it in an interview room later on.
Lawyer (07:21:07):
Now, you said you did eventually have an interview with Ms. Boles. When did that occur?
Thomas Ogden. (07:21:24):
That was December 30th of 2019.
Lawyer (07:21:30):
And where did that occur?
Thomas Ogden. (07:21:32):
At the Paulding County Sheriff's Office.
Lawyer (07:21:35):
How was that done?
Thomas Ogden. (07:21:37):
Basically in the criminal investigations' division, we have interview rooms, and so she was in interview room number one.
Lawyer (07:21:48):
And what is an interview room?
Thomas Ogden. (07:21:51):
It's basically just a small square room with a table and a couple chairs in there with camera and audio.
Lawyer (07:22:00):
And how did this defendant happen to be there on December 30th of 2019?
Thomas Ogden. (07:22:08):
I don't remember exactly how it went, but I know there was an agreeance that she would come talk to me, which she came up to the sheriff's office and at that point to come talk.
Lawyer (07:22:17):
Okay. So she came to the sheriff's office on her own to talk to you?
Thomas Ogden. (07:22:20):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:22:23):
Had she been threatened in any way to make her come to the sheriff's office to talk to you?
Thomas Ogden. (07:22:28):
No, sir.
Lawyer (07:22:31):
Had she been promised anything by you if she came to the sheriff's office to talk to you?
Thomas Ogden. (07:22:36):
No, sir.
Lawyer (07:22:38):
Was there the slightest hope of benefit or the remotest fear of injury for this defendant to come to you to talk to you at the sheriff's office?
Thomas Ogden. (07:22:48):
No, sir.
Lawyer (07:22:49):
So she comes to the sheriff's office, then what happens?
Thomas Ogden. (07:22:55):
Basically, I introduced myself again, let her know who I was and that I had been out at the hospital, talked to her before, and that I was also at her residence that night of the incident and explained to her that if she wanted to talk, tell me what happened that night.
Lawyer (07:25:17):
Officer Ogden, I show you what has previously been marked for identification as State's Exhibit 182 and ask if you can recognize this.
Thomas Ogden. (07:25:25):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:25:27):
And how do you recognize State's Exhibit 182?
Thomas Ogden. (07:25:31):
It'd be the interview with Lacy Boles. The little USB thing.
Lawyer (07:25:40):
And that's the interview. Did you listen to this particular drive and know that that's exactly what this is?
Thomas Ogden. (07:25:47):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (07:25:48):
And how do you know you listened to this particular drive and what it is?
Thomas Ogden. (07:25:51):
It has the date and my initials.
Lawyer (07:25:54):
All right, sir.
(07:25:56)
Your Honor, at this time, the state tenders into evidence State's Exhibit Number 182, and defense counsel has prepared transcripts, and they want to distribute those to the jury and to us. And I would just ask that we read the admonition again, please, sir.
Judge Bucci (07:26:15):
Ladies and gentlemen, this is going to sound familiar to you, but out of an abundance of caution, I want to reinstruct you. Throughout the trial, the parties may use a transcript of a recording. The recording itself is evidence. The transcript is not evidence and is provided only as an aid while you listen to the recording. You must determine for yourselves what is said on the recording. If you cannot understand part of the recording... Excuse me, let me start that sentence again. If you cannot understand part of the recording, disregard the corresponding portion of the transcript. If the transcript differs from the recording, the recording controls. This transcript has been prepared by the defense.
Lawyer (07:27:12):
At this time the State is going to play State exhibit.
Judge Bucci (07:27:13):
Did you tender it?
Lawyer (07:27:13):
Your Honor, [inaudible 07:27:19] State's Exhibit 182 [inaudible 07:27:21]
Judge Bucci (07:27:13):
All right. Is there an objection?
Speaker 17 (07:27:23):
Same motion, so we'll just rely on previous hearing before the court.
Judge Bucci (07:27:25):
All right. Submit it.
Lawyer (07:27:25):
And Investigator Burke, if you could play that thumb drive for us, please.
Speaker 18 (07:27:25):
[inaudible 07:27:34] transcripts.
Judge Bucci (07:27:25):
All right. We need one more transcript, I'm told. I've been provided one that I don't really need.
Lawyer (07:27:25):
Thank you.
Judge Bucci (07:27:25):
All right. Very good.
Speaker 19 (07:27:25):
May I turn the lights down just a little, Your Honor?
Judge Bucci (07:28:55):
Okay.
(07:28:55)
Is the jury able to read over there? It's kind of-
Speaker 19 (07:28:55):
Kind of dark over there. You all are okay?
Thomas Ogden. (07:28:55):
All right.
Speaker 20 (07:28:55):
Hi.
Lacy Boles (07:28:55):
Hi.
Speaker 20 (07:28:55):
[inaudible 07:30:17].
Lacy Boles (07:28:55):
Okay.
Thomas Ogden. (07:30:27):
I'm Detective Ogden. We've been in contact a little bit. I was out there. I was out at your house the day the incident occurred...
Lacy Boles (07:30:30):
Yeah.
Thomas Ogden. (07:30:30):
... and then I talked to you at the hospital.
Lacy Boles (07:30:35):
Okay.
Thomas Ogden. (07:30:35):
Do you remember?
Lacy Boles (07:30:35):
Vaguely.
Thomas Ogden. (07:30:35):
Vague. Okay. No, that's perfect. You just understand [inaudible 07:30:37] here on your own free will. You can leave at any time.
Lacy Boles (07:30:35):
Yeah. Okay. [inaudible 07:30:43]
Thomas Ogden. (07:30:46):
Okay. So basically, I didn't get a chance to talk to you because of everything happened and understandably. So basically I just need your side of what happened. Tell me about that day. I know it's going to be hard, but I do need to know the details of everything that happened that day, okay?
Lacy Boles (07:31:07):
All right. He was supposed to go out and get a key made and tampons and toilet paper. And he took our six-year-old son with him. He was gone for like three hours. I mean, it took way longer so... I don't know if you guys have his cell phone or if his cell phone was ever found, but I don't ... I don't... It doesn't matter. When Gage came back, he was just different. Just not Gage. Gage was hyper outgoing.
Thomas Ogden. (07:31:47):
That's the six-year-old.
Lacy Boles (07:31:49):
Yes. He got in his top bunk bed. Well, things escalated between Dan and I, and he physically took my cell phone from me. Physically wrapped his arms around me and took my cell phone because I was asking him certain questions and I guess he didn't like what I was asking him like, "There's one or two reasons I would ever leave you. What is going on? There's something different with you. What is going on, Dan? What is going on?" And then he immediately turned it on me and wraps me up. I had a bruise on my head, I think, and he took my cell phone. Well, I looked out the window and he was gone in his car. Gone. So I loaded my babies up and went straight to my dad's car lot and just said, "Dad, I need you to know something's wrong." Because he was like, "What are you doing here? Why are you on this side of town?" And I said, "Something is wrong.
(07:32:36)
There's just something wrong with me." And so we then went to the gas station. He put gas in my car and bought me a pack of cigarettes and I got back in the car and went home. When I got home, my cell phone was on the counter, but no Dan. So my daddy called and said, "Hey, I'm on my way." [inaudible 07:33:04] told my babies he was going to get them chicken nuggets and fries. So he said, "I'm on my way. Is he there?" And I said, "No." I went back in the bedroom and before I could come out before my dad got there, I was startled by Dan in the kitchen. I didn't hear him come in. He just had a house key made that day. So he came in and I was startled and he was like, "What are you doing, weirdo?" Well, I wasn't going to try to start fighting with him because I knew my dad was going to be there and then just null and void.
(07:33:33)
So it wasn't five minutes later my dad walked through the door with chicken nuggets and Dan said something to the extent, "We have food. We don't need your charity," or, "We don't need your help." And my dad was shocked. Dan never ever talked... He doesn't ever talk to him like that. Dan [inaudible 07:33:51] all going to go downstairs to smoke a cigarette, but Dan went and sat in his car. He never does that. He just never ever... My dad's been coming by for the past maybe two years, every Saturday night, and Dan has never disassociated himself from me. I mean, we never were fighting. Trust me, I mean, this is minute compared to the arguments we've been in.
(07:34:15)
So my father... The babies, they were sent to him downstairs with [inaudible 07:34:19] and he was like, "Just walk back." And he didn't even tell my dad. Didn't even tell me. For him not to get down and [inaudible 07:34:27] I just thought he was tired. I wasn't sure. So the babies went and said they wanted to sit in the car with daddy. So they went and got in the car with him. I lifted the garage up and watched him and then I went back in and I look and I looked at my dad and I said, "He's leaving." And he left. And this was probably 9:15. Well, I knew he had the key made and it startled me the first time, so I set a [inaudible 07:34:59] under the door. I didn't think he was coming back home, but just in case, I-
Lacy Boles (07:35:00):
... the door. I didn't think he was coming back home. But just in case, I guess a part of me, because of how he was acting, I just wanted to know if he came in.
Thomas Ogden. (07:35:07):
Right.
Lacy Boles (07:35:08):
And I don't know what time it was, but I heard the sweater drop. And so I kind of came to, and when I was walking down our hallway, I looked over and saw him go straight downstairs. And so I wasn't going to go get out or... I just wanted to say, " Where have you been? What are you even doing here?" I just...
(07:35:38)
Then he had the gun in his left hand and he was done. He was... Done. This is a terrible word, but I was just shellshocked. At first, I tried to do CPR, but there was just so much blood. So I immediately went and got my cell phone and called 911, just called them and told them what I thought had happened because then at that point, I wasn't even sure if I knew what happened.
Thomas Ogden. (07:36:07):
I understand.
Lacy Boles (07:36:08):
I almost kind of looked death in the face, if that makes sense.
Thomas Ogden. (07:36:15):
I understand. Did y'all live together?
Lacy Boles (07:36:16):
Yes.
Thomas Ogden. (07:36:16):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:36:16):
Yes.
Thomas Ogden. (07:36:17):
Why would he leave it out?
Lacy Boles (07:36:21):
Okay, because he was terrible about losing things. He always lost stuff. He had just lost his car keys and the house key was on that set. And he just had a generic key made for the car because it was too expensive to have the... This doesn't matter.
Thomas Ogden. (07:36:35):
I understand. Right.
Lacy Boles (07:36:36):
So that's why. And that's what he said he was doing.
Thomas Ogden. (07:36:41):
Okay. So when he left at 9:15, around that timeframe, did he say where he was going or no?
Lacy Boles (07:36:50):
No.
Thomas Ogden. (07:36:50):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:36:51):
I have no idea where he was.
Thomas Ogden. (07:36:53):
Okay. And so he came back, you're not sure what time?
Lacy Boles (07:37:01):
I want to say 12:00.
Thomas Ogden. (07:37:01):
Around midnight?
Lacy Boles (07:37:01):
Yes.
Thomas Ogden. (07:37:01):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:37:05):
Something like that. I can't even tell you because when I was trying to talk with 911 after that point, I don't really... It's like I have... I don't know.
Thomas Ogden. (07:37:17):
Okay. So me being at that scene, I'm assuming when you were talking about you were walking down your hallway from upstairs, you see him from the railing go downstairs?
Lacy Boles (07:37:30):
Straight down, which was-
Thomas Ogden. (07:37:31):
Did he have a gun in his hand then or-
Lacy Boles (07:37:31):
I didn't see him.
Thomas Ogden. (07:37:31):
Okay. Didn't see.
Lacy Boles (07:37:37):
I literally just saw the back of his head going down. And then I either figured he, if you go right, it's out to the garage.
Thomas Ogden. (07:37:45):
To the garage.
Lacy Boles (07:37:46):
If you go left, it's into the room. But when I got to the bottom of the steps and looked left, he was already standing right there. I knew where he was.
Thomas Ogden. (07:37:54):
Was he staying down in that room or?
Lacy Boles (07:37:56):
He had a couple nights when he had to get up and work really early because the babies just would keep him up. But we had primarily made it like a playroom.
Thomas Ogden. (07:38:04):
Okay. Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:38:04):
It was like a playroom.
Thomas Ogden. (07:38:08):
And you followed him down?
Lacy Boles (07:38:10):
Well-
Thomas Ogden. (07:38:13):
To see what was going on?
Lacy Boles (07:38:13):
Yes.
Thomas Ogden. (07:38:13):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:38:13):
Just to ask, what is going on?
Thomas Ogden. (07:38:16):
And when you went down there, what did you see? I know it's kind of... I need these details. Okay. Where was he holding the gun?
Lacy Boles (07:38:34):
What do you mean?
Thomas Ogden. (07:38:35):
How far away from himself was it?
Lacy Boles (07:38:38):
It seemed like it was pretty far. That's why I felt like it was almost like I was going to be... I don't know.
Thomas Ogden. (07:38:45):
Can you demonstrate it? I know it's hard.
Lacy Boles (07:38:47):
Oh my God. What? What do you mean demonstrate it?
Thomas Ogden. (07:38:52):
How he was holding it. Because it's a hard thing to explain and it's easier probably showing.
Lacy Boles (07:38:59):
What do you want me to do?
Thomas Ogden. (07:39:04):
Just demonstrate how he was holding the gun. Because when you say far away, I want to make sure I have it correct.
(07:39:14)
Okay. So he was like this?
Lacy Boles (07:39:19):
Uh-huh.
Thomas Ogden. (07:39:19):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:39:19):
I don't mean far away.
Thomas Ogden. (07:39:21):
That's what I'm saying.
Lacy Boles (07:39:22):
Yes, yes.
Thomas Ogden. (07:39:22):
That's why I want the demonstration because that way, it shows me was he holding it out here? Was it here?
Lacy Boles (07:39:27):
Yes. Yeah.
Thomas Ogden. (07:39:29):
Okay. So he had it about right here?
Lacy Boles (07:39:30):
Yeah.
Thomas Ogden. (07:39:32):
Okay. Did he say anything?
Lacy Boles (07:39:32):
No, not that I remember.
Thomas Ogden. (07:39:32):
Okay. Was he saying anything, mumbling anything?
Lacy Boles (07:39:38):
Yes. I don't know exactly what he was trying to say, but I was just like, "No." And then it was just done.
Thomas Ogden. (07:39:50):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:39:50):
That was it.
Thomas Ogden. (07:39:52):
Okay. Did he have it in his right hand or left hand?
Lacy Boles (07:39:54):
Left.
Thomas Ogden. (07:39:55):
Left hand?
Lacy Boles (07:39:55):
Mm-hmm.
Thomas Ogden. (07:39:55):
Okay. Is he left-handed?
Lacy Boles (07:39:56):
No.
Thomas Ogden. (07:39:57):
He's right-handed?
Lacy Boles (07:39:57):
He's right-handed.
Thomas Ogden. (07:40:02):
Okay. All right. And right when that happened, you went to do CPR or-
Lacy Boles (07:40:05):
Yes.
Thomas Ogden. (07:40:07):
Is there another step?
Lacy Boles (07:40:09):
To do what?
Thomas Ogden. (07:40:10):
And what I mean by step is, so he does what he does. What do you do immediately?
Lacy Boles (07:40:17):
Just grab him.
Thomas Ogden. (07:40:18):
Grab him.
Lacy Boles (07:40:19):
I just grabbed him. I just grabbed him. I just grabbed his hands. I grabbed his thing, and then I went to go calm his chest because I grabbed his face. I grabbed his head. I grabbed it. I don't know. I was shellshocked.
Thomas Ogden. (07:40:37):
Okay. And after that-
Lacy Boles (07:40:40):
I went straight upstairs to call 911.
Thomas Ogden. (07:40:41):
Okay. Where upstairs did you go?
Lacy Boles (07:40:43):
The bedroom.
Thomas Ogden. (07:40:44):
To the bedroom?
Lacy Boles (07:40:44):
Mm-hmm.
Thomas Ogden. (07:40:44):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:40:44):
When the babies were still sleeping.
Thomas Ogden. (07:40:46):
Okay. In your bedroom?
Lacy Boles (07:40:46):
They were still sleeping.
Thomas Ogden. (07:40:50):
And I saw a child's bed in there and all three of them were in there?
Lacy Boles (07:40:56):
No, Gaige was in his.
Thomas Ogden. (07:40:57):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:40:58):
And then we had a little bed and then we had our bed.
Thomas Ogden. (07:41:03):
Okay. So where was your phone at in the bedroom?
Lacy Boles (07:41:07):
Just beside the bed on the window ledge, I think.
Thomas Ogden. (07:41:09):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:41:09):
Yeah.
Thomas Ogden. (07:41:12):
Okay. So you grabbed the phone and then what?
Lacy Boles (07:41:13):
Called 911 immediately.
Thomas Ogden. (07:41:13):
Okay, okay.
Lacy Boles (07:41:13):
Immediately called 911.
Thomas Ogden. (07:41:13):
All right. And while you were calling 911, like I said, I got to go step by step details with you, so just bear with me. Okay?
Lacy Boles (07:41:25):
Mm-hmm.
Thomas Ogden. (07:41:26):
So once you called 911, what happens then?
Lacy Boles (07:41:29):
They told me, "Was he beyond repair? Could I get the gun?" I guess they wanted to make sure I was safe. So I did. I went downstairs and I picked up the gun and I was like, "I have it. It's okay." I guess in my mind, I knew he was gone, but I didn't [inaudible 07:41:46]. Then I went one more time to try to give him CPR and I told them I couldn't go back down there. I went upstairs and I didn't move until the sheriff came in and that was it.
Thomas Ogden. (07:41:57):
Okay. Okay. When you picked up the gun, where did you put it?
Lacy Boles (07:41:58):
I don't remember.
Thomas Ogden. (07:41:58):
You don't remember?
Lacy Boles (07:41:58):
I have no idea.
Thomas Ogden. (07:41:58):
Okay. All right.
Lacy Boles (07:42:03):
I feel like I threw it, as dangerous as that sounds. I feel like I just, I don't know what I did with it.
Thomas Ogden. (07:42:10):
Okay. And I'm assuming obviously CPR, grabbed his head. Did you have blood on your hands?
Lacy Boles (07:42:16):
All over them.
Thomas Ogden. (07:42:16):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:42:16):
All over my hands.
Thomas Ogden. (07:42:17):
Did you wash your hands at your house?
Lacy Boles (07:42:19):
No.
Thomas Ogden. (07:42:19):
You didn't?
Lacy Boles (07:42:19):
No.
Thomas Ogden. (07:42:21):
Okay. Not one time?
Lacy Boles (07:42:23):
No, not that I can remember.
Thomas Ogden. (07:42:23):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:42:28):
No. My sister wiped blood off my hands at the...
Thomas Ogden. (07:42:29):
At the hospital?
Lacy Boles (07:42:32):
At the hospital. That's the only time. And she's the one who told me she did that.
Thomas Ogden. (07:42:34):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:42:35):
Yeah.
Thomas Ogden. (07:42:35):
Okay. What was y'all's relationship like?
Lacy Boles (07:42:43):
We loved hard and we fought hard and we fought hard for each other.
Thomas Ogden. (07:42:47):
How long were y'all together for?
Lacy Boles (07:42:48):
Eight years.
Thomas Ogden. (07:42:48):
Eight years?
Lacy Boles (07:42:48):
Mm-hmm.
Thomas Ogden. (07:42:51):
How long were y'all married?
Lacy Boles (07:42:52):
It was just our year anniversary in September.
Thomas Ogden. (07:42:55):
September? Okay. All three kids, are those-
Lacy Boles (07:43:00):
His.
Thomas Ogden. (07:43:01):
His and yours?
Lacy Boles (07:43:03):
I had two and he had two before we met each other and then we had three together.
Thomas Ogden. (07:43:07):
Okay. And all those three that were at the house are-
Lacy Boles (07:43:09):
Are his.
Thomas Ogden. (07:43:10):
... are his and yours?
Lacy Boles (07:43:12):
Yes, yes, yes.
Thomas Ogden. (07:43:13):
Okay. Okay.
(07:43:13)
And I never did. What are their names?
Lacy Boles (07:43:17):
Just the babies?
Thomas Ogden. (07:43:17):
Yeah, just the babies.
Lacy Boles (07:43:18):
Gaige Akers. G-A-I-G-E.
Thomas Ogden. (07:43:22):
G-A-I-G-E. Akers?
Lacy Boles (07:43:23):
Do you want his full name?
Thomas Ogden. (07:43:23):
Yes.
Lacy Boles (07:43:25):
Okay. Gaige Lee, L-E-E, Dean, D-E-A-N, Akers, A- K-E-R-S.
Thomas Ogden. (07:43:33):
Okay. What's his date of birth?
Lacy Boles (07:43:33):
11/14/13.
Thomas Ogden. (07:43:33):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:43:37):
Emrsyn, E-M-R-S-Y-N. Raya.
Thomas Ogden. (07:43:43):
S-Y?
Lacy Boles (07:43:43):
Mm-hmm. R-A-Y-A, Akers. 8/30-
Thomas Ogden. (07:43:43):
R-A-Y-A?
Lacy Boles (07:43:43):
Mm-hmm.
Thomas Ogden. (07:43:43):
Akers.
Lacy Boles (07:43:43):
8/30/16.
Thomas Ogden. (07:43:43):
8/30/16?
Lacy Boles (07:43:43):
Mm-hmm.
Thomas Ogden. (07:43:43):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:43:44):
Daniel, D-A-N-I-E-L. Derry, D-E-R-R-Y.
Thomas Ogden. (07:43:45):
D-E- R-R-Y?
Lacy Boles (07:44:07):
Akers, 11/10/17. [inaudible 07:44:19].
Thomas Ogden. (07:44:20):
Gaige, does he go to school?
Lacy Boles (07:44:20):
He does.
Thomas Ogden. (07:44:20):
What school?
Lacy Boles (07:44:22):
Panter Elementary.
Thomas Ogden. (07:44:23):
Panter Elementary. What grade?
Lacy Boles (07:44:25):
Kindergarten.
Thomas Ogden. (07:44:33):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:44:33):
Mm-hmm.
Thomas Ogden. (07:44:33):
And is Emrsyn or Daniel in school?
Lacy Boles (07:44:34):
No. Actually, I'm working on potty training to get her in the cutoff date is September 1st, so get her pre-K by August.
Thomas Ogden. (07:44:42):
Okay. And that's Emrsyn?
Lacy Boles (07:44:42):
Mm-hmm.
Thomas Ogden. (07:44:44):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:44:45):
Yes, sir.
Thomas Ogden. (07:44:49):
Okay. Were they around when that happened or were they upstairs?
Lacy Boles (07:44:52):
When what happened?
Thomas Ogden. (07:44:53):
The incident.
Lacy Boles (07:44:55):
Yeah. No, they slept through it.
Thomas Ogden. (07:44:57):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:44:57):
That's what I said. Until I came back upstairs the second time, I was on the phone. They told me to go down there. When I came upstairs, the second time, I know I woke him up.
Thomas Ogden. (07:45:07):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:45:08):
Gaige didn't wake up until I told him they made me move to the couch, in the living room to calm me down, I'm assuming, wait for my mom to get there. And I heard them say two kids. So I looked up at whoever it was and I said, "No, there's three. He's in his bedroom." And I told him which bedroom. So I feel like at that point, he was woke up because my mom did say he was awake when she got there.
Thomas Ogden. (07:45:30):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:45:31):
Yeah.
Thomas Ogden. (07:45:32):
All right. What's your mom's name?
Lacy Boles (07:45:34):
Kathy, K-A-T-H-Y, Brawner, B-R-A-W-N-E-R.
Thomas Ogden. (07:45:37):
Spell that one mo time.
Lacy Boles (07:45:41):
B-R-A-W-N-E-R.
Thomas Ogden. (07:45:43):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:45:43):
You need-
Thomas Ogden. (07:45:44):
Her date of birth, if you know.
Lacy Boles (07:45:46):
Yes. March 6th. I don't know the year though.
Thomas Ogden. (07:45:50):
Okay, that's fine. Do you know her address?
Lacy Boles (07:45:53):
Mm-hmm. McDuffie, M-C-D-U-F-F-I-E, Road, Austell, Georgia 30106.
Thomas Ogden. (07:46:00):
Do you happen to know her phone number.
Lacy Boles (07:46:04):
404-213-
Thomas Ogden. (07:46:07):
So I remember when she came to the house, that everything was... We were trying to get everything situated.
Lacy Boles (07:46:12):
Yes. Right.
Thomas Ogden. (07:46:17):
And at the hospital, did they tell you anything?
Lacy Boles (07:46:19):
No.
Thomas Ogden. (07:46:19):
After I left or anything?
Lacy Boles (07:46:20):
No.
Thomas Ogden. (07:46:20):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:46:20):
Why? Were they supposed to?
Thomas Ogden. (07:46:25):
No, I was just... I didn't know. Sometimes they'll say things or whatnot, and I just want to make sure there's no rumors, no nothing, nothing being said that doesn't need to be said.
Lacy Boles (07:46:34):
Like what?
Thomas Ogden. (07:46:36):
Just anything involved with the case. Because anytime stuff like this happens, things get said sometimes and I just wanted to make sure.
Lacy Boles (07:46:45):
About me or just-
Thomas Ogden. (07:46:45):
Anything. Anything.
Lacy Boles (07:46:48):
No. They put that [inaudible 07:46:49] and my daughter and her boyfriend showed up with my sister. And then I just wanted to get back to my babies.
Thomas Ogden. (07:46:59):
Okay. Is there anything else that I need to be aware of or anything?
Lacy Boles (07:47:04):
That's all I know.
Thomas Ogden. (07:47:04):
All right.
Lacy Boles (07:47:07):
Mm-hmm.
Thomas Ogden. (07:47:08):
Okay. Give me one second and I'll be right back. Do you want a water or anything?
Lacy Boles (07:47:13):
No.
Thomas Ogden. (07:47:14):
No? Okay. All right. Just give me one second, okay?
Lacy Boles (07:47:14):
No problem.
Thomas Ogden. (07:47:55):
All right. Did you ask Gaige where they went or?
Lacy Boles (07:48:03):
I tried. I just kept asking if everything was okay. I haven't really went into that.
Thomas Ogden. (07:48:09):
I understand.
Lacy Boles (07:48:14):
You know what I mean?
Thomas Ogden. (07:48:14):
Right. No, I get you.
Lacy Boles (07:48:15):
I just know he was different and he never-
Thomas Ogden. (07:48:16):
What do you mean by different?
Lacy Boles (07:48:17):
Gaige?
Thomas Ogden. (07:48:17):
Yes.
Lacy Boles (07:48:18):
Like he wasn't active. He wasn't Gaige. Gaige talks. He talks and talks and talks. He's active. He wants to play. He don't want to be on his top bunk sleeping. He didn't leave that top bunk even when my dad was there.
Thomas Ogden. (07:48:29):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:48:30):
And he just wanted to be-
Thomas Ogden. (07:48:34):
What time... And all that was around...
Lacy Boles (07:48:37):
Okay, that was the first time he left with Gaige. So we're talking like 1:00-ish to-
Thomas Ogden. (07:48:42):
In the afternoon?
Lacy Boles (07:48:42):
Yes.
Thomas Ogden. (07:48:42):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:48:42):
Like 4:00.
Thomas Ogden. (07:48:42):
I got you.
Lacy Boles (07:48:45):
You know what I mean? So that was that span. The three hours he made and get tampons and toilet paper just seemed... And he had Gaige, so I'm texting him, "Where are you? What is going on?" And then I didn't want to be... I wanted to ask Gaige, but again, he's six years old, so the more you pressure him, he'll get pissed off too.
Thomas Ogden. (07:49:04):
I understand. All right.
Lacy Boles (07:49:05):
So I didn't...
Thomas Ogden. (07:49:10):
Okay. Has Daniel, has he ever been suicidal before, any threats, tendencies, statements ever made of suicide?
Lacy Boles (07:49:20):
Not clear statements that... The last time he sent me, I finally listened to it all the way through and I almost felt like in a sense, he was telling me, if that makes sense?
Thomas Ogden. (07:49:38):
What, was he upset?
Lacy Boles (07:49:40):
The last song Dan sent to me, I was at my mom's and I told him I didn't listen to it out loud, but when I finally listened to it all the way through, it was like maybe in my mind some way, somehow he was telling me.
Thomas Ogden. (07:49:53):
What song was it?
Lacy Boles (07:49:54):
It's called War.
Thomas Ogden. (07:49:56):
War?
Lacy Boles (07:49:57):
Do you want me to get you that?
Thomas Ogden. (07:49:57):
Okay. That's fine.
Lacy Boles (07:49:57):
Okay. Yeah.
Thomas Ogden. (07:50:02):
Has he ever said before, "I'm going to kill myself," or...
Lacy Boles (07:50:05):
Yes.
Thomas Ogden. (07:50:06):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:50:09):
But I never took him... It wasn't. I just never...
Thomas Ogden. (07:50:13):
And I know there's context where people joke around like that.
Lacy Boles (07:50:24):
Yeah. It's been both ways, but I never thought.
Thomas Ogden. (07:50:24):
But during an argument or something?
Lacy Boles (07:50:24):
Yes, yes.
Thomas Ogden. (07:50:24):
He's made that before?
Lacy Boles (07:50:24):
Yes.
Thomas Ogden. (07:50:24):
Okay. Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:50:28):
Right. But I still, even if I would've heard him say it as serious as a heart attack, I wouldn't have ever thought.
Thomas Ogden. (07:50:32):
Okay. Where'd the gun come from? Was it his, yours?
Lacy Boles (07:50:40):
I have no idea. I don't even know what gun was used.
Thomas Ogden. (07:50:45):
Okay. It was a revolver.
Lacy Boles (07:50:47):
We had one in the safe, but I haven't looked, so I don't know.
Thomas Ogden. (07:50:53):
Okay. But y'all did have a revolver?
Lacy Boles (07:50:55):
Yes.
Thomas Ogden. (07:50:56):
Okay. Can you describe it?
Lacy Boles (07:50:57):
It had a pearl handle on it, I believe.
Thomas Ogden. (07:50:59):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:51:01):
And just silver, small.
Thomas Ogden. (07:51:04):
Okay. Do you know what kind of caliber?
Lacy Boles (07:51:07):
Is it .40?
Thomas Ogden. (07:51:07):
Bullets?
Lacy Boles (07:51:07):
I don't know. I have no idea.
Thomas Ogden. (07:51:11):
Okay. If you don't know, you don't know.
Lacy Boles (07:51:12):
I didn't even put the bullets in. I have no idea. I have no idea.
Thomas Ogden. (07:51:15):
Okay. Have you ever used that gun before or anything?
Lacy Boles (07:51:20):
For...
Thomas Ogden. (07:51:20):
Just like range or-
Lacy Boles (07:51:29):
Yes, to the shooting range.
Thomas Ogden. (07:51:29):
Okay. All right. But you don't know whose gun it is or...
Lacy Boles (07:51:30):
My father had given it to me.
Thomas Ogden. (07:51:32):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:51:32):
Yeah.
Thomas Ogden. (07:51:34):
Okay. So your father gave it to you?
Lacy Boles (07:51:36):
Yes. And he knew exactly where it was.
Thomas Ogden. (07:51:37):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:51:38):
Yeah.
Thomas Ogden. (07:51:39):
Where was it usually located in the house?
Lacy Boles (07:51:40):
In the safe.
Thomas Ogden. (07:51:41):
In the safe. And where's the safe at?
Lacy Boles (07:51:44):
In our bedroom in the closet.
Thomas Ogden. (07:51:48):
Okay. Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:51:52):
Yeah. Yeah.
Thomas Ogden. (07:51:56):
When he's made those statements of threats, did he have a method or way that he said he was going to do it or I'm going to shoot myself, I'm going to stab myself, I'll cut myself?
Lacy Boles (07:52:11):
No. This would always be his, just kill myself. That would be, but that's never... It was always, it wasn't, "I'm going to take a gun and put it and kill myself."
Thomas Ogden. (07:52:26):
I got you.
Lacy Boles (07:52:28):
If that makes sense?
Thomas Ogden. (07:52:28):
So he's made gestures.
Lacy Boles (07:52:30):
Right. Right.
Thomas Ogden. (07:52:31):
Okay. I'm trying to think.
(07:52:49)
That day, the song he sent you, was that during the daytime or right before everything?
Lacy Boles (07:53:00):
It was Wednesday that he sent the song.
Thomas Ogden. (07:53:00):
That was that Wednesday?
Lacy Boles (07:53:00):
Mm-hmm. Wednesday, he sent it.
Thomas Ogden. (07:53:04):
Okay. Did y'all talk after that... Well, obviously when he was at the house, did y'all have any other arguments between that Wednesday to...
Lacy Boles (07:53:14):
He was just different from Thursday to... He was just different.
Thomas Ogden. (07:53:16):
What do you mean by different?
Lacy Boles (07:53:20):
Just not Dan, just would start a fight with me, I feel like almost on purpose then he'd be separated from me, if that makes sense?
Thomas Ogden. (07:53:31):
Okay. Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:53:31):
And then would go and work on stuff and not spend time with any of the kids. Saturday, he was like the other two babies, he was just a normal boy with them and he was a good dad.
Thomas Ogden. (07:54:12):
Okay.
(07:54:12)
... or way that he said he was going to do it or I'm going to shoot myself, I'm going to stab myself, I'll cut myself.
Lacy Boles (07:54:48):
No. This would always be his, just kill myself. That would be, but that's never... It was always, it wasn't, "I'm going to take a gun and put it and kill myself."
Thomas Ogden. (07:55:03):
I gotcha.
Lacy Boles (07:55:04):
If that makes sense?
Thomas Ogden. (07:55:05):
So he's made gestures?
Lacy Boles (07:55:05):
Right, right.
Thomas Ogden. (07:55:06):
Okay. Okay. I'm trying to think.
(07:55:26)
That day, the song he sent you, was that during the daytime or right before everything?
Lacy Boles (07:55:34):
It was Wednesday when he sent the song.
Thomas Ogden. (07:55:36):
That was that Wednesday?
Lacy Boles (07:55:36):
Mm-hmm. Wednesday he sent it.
Thomas Ogden. (07:55:41):
Okay. Did y'all talk after that one? Well, obviously when he was at the house, did y'all have any other arguments between that Wednesday to...
Lacy Boles (07:55:51):
He was just different from Thursday to... He was just different.
Thomas Ogden. (07:55:54):
What do you mean by different?
Lacy Boles (07:55:57):
Just not Dan, just would start a fight with me I feel like almost on purpose then he'd be separated from me, if that makes sense.
Thomas Ogden. (07:56:06):
Okay. Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:56:08):
And then would go and work on stuff and not spend time with the other kids. Saturday, he was like the other two babies, he was just a normal boy with them and he was a good dad.
Thomas Ogden. (07:56:26):
Okay. Are you still staying at the house now or are you staying somewhere else?
Lacy Boles (07:56:29):
No, I've been between my mom's and my daughter's house.
Thomas Ogden. (07:56:31):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:56:31):
Yeah.
Thomas Ogden. (07:56:31):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:56:33):
And I just don't know when I'm going to go back.
Thomas Ogden. (07:56:35):
I understand.
Lacy Boles (07:56:35):
If I do go back.
Thomas Ogden. (07:56:39):
I understand. Have you talked to any other family members?
Lacy Boles (07:56:43):
What do you mean?
Thomas Ogden. (07:56:45):
Your family or Dan's family members?
Lacy Boles (07:56:47):
Oh, yeah. [inaudible 07:56:50]. Sorry. I can't really... His family's just real noisy and chaotic.
Thomas Ogden. (07:57:02):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:57:02):
And I had his memorial. I wanted to honor his every... Make it honorable for him because he deserves that. And even the babies not being there one day, that we could be a part of that.
Thomas Ogden. (07:57:18):
Right.
Lacy Boles (07:57:21):
No. But yeah, I've talked to my family, of course.
Thomas Ogden. (07:57:27):
Have you talked to his though?
Lacy Boles (07:57:27):
Yes. I talked to his sister.
Thomas Ogden. (07:57:29):
What was that conversation-
Lacy Boles (07:57:31):
It was just she was just asking me a million questions or would scream and try to talk in circles and I would try to redirect her back like, "Right now, this is about Dan."
Thomas Ogden. (07:57:42):
Who was that, that you talked to?
Lacy Boles (07:57:43):
Jenny Edwards.
Thomas Ogden. (07:57:45):
Jenny Edwards?
Lacy Boles (07:57:47):
Mm-hmm.
Thomas Ogden. (07:57:47):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:57:48):
I don't know her date of birth or-
Thomas Ogden. (07:57:49):
That's fine.
Lacy Boles (07:57:49):
... [inaudible 07:57:50].
Thomas Ogden. (07:57:50):
That's fine. Any other of his family that you talked to?
Lacy Boles (07:57:55):
Yes. I talked to Aaron Edwards and-
Thomas Ogden. (07:57:57):
Aaron, is that male or female?
Lacy Boles (07:57:59):
Male.
Thomas Ogden. (07:58:00):
Male.
Lacy Boles (07:58:00):
And Jess, because they just kept texting and wanting to know what was going on and what happened.
Thomas Ogden. (07:58:08):
And who's Aaron?
Lacy Boles (07:58:09):
Aaron's Jenny's son.
Thomas Ogden. (07:58:10):
Aaron's Jenny's son? Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:58:14):
And Jess is his biological... Well, they have the same dad from Jersey, but she's from New Jersey.
Thomas Ogden. (07:58:21):
And you said Jess, is it Jessica or...
Lacy Boles (07:58:23):
Yeah, Jessica Bertoa, B-E-R-T-O-A, I think.
Thomas Ogden. (07:58:30):
Who were they in relation to Daniel?
Lacy Boles (07:58:33):
So nephew and sister. So sister, nephew, sister.
Thomas Ogden. (07:58:41):
Okay. And you said with Aaron, it's just text messaging?
Lacy Boles (07:58:49):
No, I spoke on the phone to all three of those people.
Thomas Ogden. (07:58:55):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:58:55):
Voice. Text messages were just a Merry Christmas, I love you to the other ones, and that's it. I feel like I talked to them and did the best I could.
Thomas Ogden. (07:59:07):
I understand. I understand. So with Jenny, that one you said kind of went in circles?
Lacy Boles (07:59:14):
Yeah.
Thomas Ogden. (07:59:14):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (07:59:14):
And then, well, I said he had been acting different since Thursday. I said, since he came and checked my oil and it didn't have any oil. So that Thursday, he went to... No, maybe it was Wednesday. Maybe it was Wednesday, but he went to his parents' house Wednesday or Thursday and got a quart of oil and the stuff to change my oil with. And then he took it back over there Friday. And I was just trying to tell her that it was weird, but she was like, "We don't sell drugs here. There's no drugs here. What do you mean? Was he on drugs?" And I was like, "First off, that's Dan and I'm going to honor him and I can't answer that question for you. And second off, that has nothing... We're not talking in circles. That has nothing to do with what I'm trying to tell you right now. I'm just telling you. You wanted to know when he started acting different. So I'm telling you when he started acting different and what steps were what."
Thomas Ogden. (08:00:16):
Right. And how did the conversation go with Aaron?
Lacy Boles (08:00:22):
Just sobbed. I just cried. He cried. I tried to get through as best I could, and he just wanted to know what happened, and that was it. It was short. Same thing with Jess.
Thomas Ogden. (08:00:34):
What did you tell him?
Lacy Boles (08:00:35):
Everything I just told you in a nutshell. I did tell Jenny everything I just told you, she got everything. Aaron didn't get when he got physical with his cell phone or... I was just trying to get through it and let him know what happened because I felt like I was being just shot at and shot at with... I don't know what it was, but with Jenny, it's just like I just don't have those answers.
Thomas Ogden. (08:01:06):
What about Jess?
Lacy Boles (08:01:08):
It was short. Then she wanted to talk immediately to my mom to make sure if I had medication because I needed to go lay down. She was worried about me. She was really worried about me.
Thomas Ogden. (08:01:15):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (08:01:16):
Yeah.
Thomas Ogden. (08:01:16):
All right. Anybody else ask you anything about the incident?
Lacy Boles (08:01:27):
Like who?
Thomas Ogden. (08:01:30):
Any other family members?
Lacy Boles (08:01:31):
Have I told anybody what happened?
Thomas Ogden. (08:01:32):
No. Well, I mean, as in his family, has anyone else reached out?
Lacy Boles (08:01:37):
Through text, yes.
Thomas Ogden. (08:01:38):
Through text?
Lacy Boles (08:01:38):
Yes, yes.
Thomas Ogden. (08:01:40):
Okay.
(08:01:40)
What are those texts generally? What are they usually asking?
Lacy Boles (08:01:47):
Just what happened. Now they've moved to, which I'm not answering anything because I don't feel like I owe... It's like why I did this with the whole memorial. So it's not even on why he did it. Now it's why I did things, why I honored his every last wish. That was my husband. That might have been your brother and your son. That was my man. That was my man. I knew what he wanted.
Thomas Ogden. (08:02:18):
Right. Okay. Is there anything else you'd like to talk to me about or...
Lacy Boles (08:02:19):
No.
Thomas Ogden. (08:02:21):
Okay. All right. Just give me one second, okay? I'll be right back.
Lacy Boles (08:02:36):
Yeah.
Thomas Ogden. (08:16:28):
Okay. Just one other question I did have. When you said you would go to the range, did you go with Daniel to shoot?
Lacy Boles (08:16:39):
I have once, before, yes.
Thomas Ogden. (08:16:41):
Do you remember if he shot with what hand?
Lacy Boles (08:16:44):
Both.
Thomas Ogden. (08:16:44):
Both?
Lacy Boles (08:16:47):
Both.
Thomas Ogden. (08:16:48):
Okay.
Lacy Boles (08:16:48):
Because our son's ambidextrous too, Gage. He uses [inaudible 08:16:52].
Thomas Ogden. (08:16:52):
Gage's hand? Okay. And was Daniel?
Lacy Boles (08:16:54):
He could do... Yes, he could use both hands.
Thomas Ogden. (08:16:57):
Okay. Like writing?
Lacy Boles (08:16:58):
No, not writing. But like catching, throwing. It was, I would say, predominantly like Gage, but he could do both.
Thomas Ogden. (08:17:07):
Did he play baseball?
Lacy Boles (08:17:07):
Yeah, he played football.
Thomas Ogden. (08:17:07):
Football?
Lacy Boles (08:17:07):
Yes. Gage does too.
Thomas Ogden. (08:17:07):
Okay.
Judge (08:17:27):
And, Deputy Ogden, you were in the interview room with this defendant during the interview, is that correct?
Thomas Ogden. (08:17:38):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:17:39):
And you observed her while she was giving her statements and being interviewed, is that correct?
Thomas Ogden. (08:17:44):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:17:46):
Was there anything that struck you as unusual or something you didn't expect when you watched her detailing what had happened and how it had happened?
Thomas Ogden. (08:17:54):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:17:56):
And what was that?
Thomas Ogden. (08:18:00):
Basically, when she'd start to get emotional about it, she would be emotional but there was no tears.
Judge (08:18:09):
So she would be emotional? What do you mean by emotional?
Thomas Ogden. (08:18:14):
Like she was crying, but there was no tears from... The last time I talked to her at the hospital, when she was crying, there was tears. This time, during the interview, when she'd start to cry or, I don't know the best term, but where she's starting to get basically crying, there was no tears coming up.
Judge (08:18:39):
Well, what do you mean by she was trying to cry? What was she doing that made you think she was trying to cry?
Thomas Ogden. (08:18:45):
I don't necessarily mean trying. I mean, when she would start to cry because of remembering the incident, there was no tears.
Judge (08:18:59):
Well, when you tried to talk to her at the hospital, she was... How emotional was she at the hospital?
Thomas Ogden. (08:19:05):
Very emotional.
Judge (08:19:08):
Okay. And when you talked to her here, what time of the day was it you were talking to her here?
Thomas Ogden. (08:19:15):
I don't recall.
Judge (08:19:17):
So you were talking to her for the interview, and how emotional was she during the interview would you say, compared to being at the hospital?
Thomas Ogden. (08:19:30):
It was a drastic difference. She was still emotional at some parts, but the last time, like I said, at the hospital, it was almost to a point that she couldn't even get a sentence out at times because of her crying or being emotional because of the incident.
Judge (08:19:55):
Well, this interview was conducted on what day?
Thomas Ogden. (08:19:59):
This interview was December 30th.
Judge (08:20:03):
And that's just eight days after her husband died, isn't it?
Thomas Ogden. (08:20:07):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:20:13):
And the interview ends, and what, if anything, do you do when this interview ends?
Thomas Ogden. (08:20:21):
Can you say that one more time, sir?
Judge (08:20:22):
I'm sorry?
Thomas Ogden. (08:20:23):
I didn't hear that.
Judge (08:20:24):
I said, when the interview ends, what, if anything, do you do?
Thomas Ogden. (08:20:29):
At that point, when the interview ends, I've talked to my supervisor if there's anything else needed.
Judge (08:20:38):
And so what, if anything, do you do after this particular interview with regard to this case? What are you doing now?
Thomas Ogden. (08:20:48):
At that point, I'm making a copy of the video and adding it to the case file. And basically, we'll do a little narrative that I spoke with her at this such time and date and, basically, that I made a copy and put that copy into the case file.
Judge (08:21:04):
Okay. So that interview is over with. You have worked the [inaudible 08:21:09] these things and see if you recognize them. If you would just look through that second photograph, please.
Thomas Ogden. (08:21:08):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:22:54):
Deputy, you are looking through a group of photographs. Are you able to recognize these photographs that you're looking through?
Thomas Ogden. (08:25:56):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:26:01):
And how are you familiar with these photographs?
Thomas Ogden. (08:26:03):
These were the photographs that Detective Carter had taken on the scene of December 22nd.
Judge (08:26:12):
Now, how did Detective Carter decide what pictures to take?
Thomas Ogden. (08:26:21):
For the most part, we worked together and she has more experience than I do with this, but she helped guide me as well finding whether it was blood, anything that may have related to this incident at the house.
Judge (08:26:42):
And so, you were working as a team to assist this crime scene and evaluate and also try to preserve it, is that correct?
Thomas Ogden. (08:26:54):
Correct.
Judge (08:26:55):
Okay. Investigator, first, can you just say what the exhibit number is and start going through those, and I believe you'll be able to see it on your screen there when the item displayed.
Speaker 21 (08:27:55):
Exhibit 5.
Judge (08:27:55):
State's Exhibit 5. Are you able to recognize that one?
Thomas Ogden. (08:27:58):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:27:58):
And what is that a picture of?
Thomas Ogden. (08:28:01):
That is the house at 83 Braemill Court.
Judge (08:28:09):
Okay. Did you ask the detective to do that, or did she just do that?
Thomas Ogden. (08:28:11):
She would've just done that. They usually start from the outside and work their way in, generally.
Judge (08:28:17):
All right. Let's go to the next exhibit if you would please, sir.
Speaker 21 (08:28:19):
State's 177.
Judge (08:28:40):
Now, did you have occasion to go to the upstairs bedroom, sir?
Thomas Ogden. (08:28:43):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:28:44):
And when you went to the upstairs bedroom, did you notice anything on the window sill there in that bedroom?
Thomas Ogden. (08:28:51):
Yes, sir. It looked like a blood smudge of some sort.
Judge (08:28:58):
Okay. Did you see the defendant's driver's license on the window sill at any time?
Thomas Ogden. (08:29:03):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:29:07):
And did you have Detective Carter photograph that as well?
Thomas Ogden. (08:29:11):
I believe so. I'm not positive she did the whole license.
Judge (08:29:15):
Okay. Now, did you also notice blood smears on the walls in the upstairs bedroom?
Thomas Ogden. (08:29:20):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:29:21):
If you go to the next one.
Speaker 21 (08:29:22):
State's 176.
Judge (08:29:32):
Now, do you recognize this photograph from the downstairs basement?
Thomas Ogden. (08:29:38):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:29:39):
And do you recognize that as being a trash can?
Thomas Ogden. (08:29:41):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:29:43):
And what about these things on the wall there? Were you able to determine what those were by looking at it?
Thomas Ogden. (08:29:47):
Blood droplets.
Judge (08:29:47):
You thought they were blood droplets?
Thomas Ogden. (08:29:47):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:29:48):
And what made you think they were blood droplets?
Thomas Ogden. (08:29:56):
Just through experience in law enforcement. I've seen this before on other scenes as well.
Judge (08:30:03):
All right. And the next photograph, please.
Speaker 21 (08:30:05):
State's 27.
Judge (08:30:13):
Now State's 27, when you come down the stairs, are you able to recognize this entranceway right here?
Thomas Ogden. (08:30:23):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:30:24):
And what is this an entranceway to?
Thomas Ogden. (08:30:26):
That takes you into what is the playroom where Daniel was found.
Judge (08:30:33):
All right. And the next one.
Speaker 21 (08:30:40):
State's 175.
Judge (08:30:45):
And this again, do you see the trash can in this picture here?
Thomas Ogden. (08:30:48):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:30:49):
Let me ask you this. Officer, can you see my laser that I'm pointing on the screen or not from where you're sitting?
Thomas Ogden. (08:30:56):
I can't see it on this screen, but -
Judge (08:30:58):
But you can see it there?
Thomas Ogden. (08:30:59):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:30:59):
Okay. And I'm circling these items right there. Is that another picture of what you described earlier?
Thomas Ogden. (08:31:06):
Correct. Yes, sir.
Judge (08:31:07):
If you go to the next picture, please, sir.
Speaker 21 (08:31:09):
State's 25.
Judge (08:31:17):
Then, as you come down the stairs going to this room, there's a banister there, and did you have a photograph taken of the banister?
Thomas Ogden. (08:31:27):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:31:27):
And do you see what I'm circling here with the laser?
Thomas Ogden. (08:31:31):
Yes, sir. I do.
Judge (08:31:32):
And do you remember what that is?
Thomas Ogden. (08:31:35):
It looked like a blood smudge.
Judge (08:31:38):
And what about here on the door? Could you tell or not?
Thomas Ogden. (08:31:43):
On that doorframe?
Judge (08:31:45):
Yes, sir.
Thomas Ogden. (08:31:45):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:31:47):
All right. What'd you think that was?
Thomas Ogden. (08:31:50):
It looked like little blood droplets, but I was not sure, but we made sure she had a picture of it.
Judge (08:31:58):
All right. And the next photograph?
Speaker 21 (08:31:58):
State's 20.
Judge (08:32:08):
Now State's 20, there's a handrail in there, and then there's another marking on the wall. Were you able to determine what that was by looking at it?
Thomas Ogden. (08:32:18):
Yes, sir. It appeared to be blood to me.
Judge (08:32:20):
You though that was blood also?
Thomas Ogden. (08:32:20):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:32:20):
All right, sir. And then the next photograph?
Speaker 21 (08:32:20):
State's 20A, does it have them?
Judge (08:32:32):
Is that another photograph of that same blood pattern, but from a different angle?
Thomas Ogden. (08:32:36):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:32:37):
Now, did you look at all the crime scene photographs as part of your duties as a detective? Did you go through all the pictures?
Thomas Ogden. (08:32:45):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:32:45):
So you're familiar with all these pictures having been the lead detective at that point?
Thomas Ogden. (08:32:50):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:32:51):
And is this the first time you were a lead detective on a homicide case?
Thomas Ogden. (08:32:54):
Yes, sir. It was.
Judge (08:32:56):
All right. So let's go to the next one.
Speaker 21 (08:33:01):
State's 16.
Judge (08:33:04):
Now, this is a picture of... Do you recognize this picture here?
Thomas Ogden. (08:33:08):
I believe that's the front door of the residence.
Judge (08:33:12):
All right. Can we get a closer picture of that one if you set the next one up?
Speaker 21 (08:33:18):
State's 18.
Judge (08:33:20):
State's 18. Now, you got a closer picture of that. Why did you want this picture?
Thomas Ogden. (08:33:26):
We saw there's a little bit of what appeared to be blood on that door handle.
Judge (08:33:40):
Okay. And the next picture, please.
Speaker 21 (08:33:40):
State's 20.
Judge (08:33:40):
And is that that same doorknob but from a different angle?
Thomas Ogden. (08:33:43):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:33:44):
All right. And the next picture?
Speaker 21 (08:33:52):
State's 139.
Judge (08:33:54):
Now, this is a picture of a sink. Did you go to the upstairs and look in this bathroom sink?
Thomas Ogden. (08:34:00):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:34:02):
And what did you notice about the bathroom sink when you went over there?
Thomas Ogden. (08:34:05):
The bathroom sink had blood droplets that looked like they had been watered down, like someone had used the sink to wash.
Judge (08:34:13):
All right. And the next picture?
Speaker 21 (08:34:32):
State's 75.
Judge (08:34:35):
And that's the trash can again, is that correct? And this is further away from showing the pattern on the door frame and also on the wall, is that correct?
Thomas Ogden. (08:34:46):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:34:46):
All right. And the next one?
Speaker 21 (08:34:46):
State's 74.
Judge (08:34:54):
And that's a closer up picture of the trash can and the blood spatter or the markings on the wall, is that correct?
Thomas Ogden. (08:35:02):
Correct. Yes, sir.
Judge (08:35:03):
All right. And the next one?
Speaker 21 (08:35:06):
State's 72.
Judge (08:35:07):
And that's even further away so you can get a sense of it. And is this the entrance way to the downstairs room that I'm highlighting right here?
Thomas Ogden. (08:35:16):
Yes, sir. It is.
Judge (08:35:30):
Okay. And the next picture?
Speaker 21 (08:35:30):
State's 50.
Judge (08:35:31):
Now this is a picture of... What is this a picture of, actually?
Thomas Ogden. (08:35:36):
That is a picture of Daniel deceased on the floor in that bedroom.
Judge (08:35:42):
Okay. Now, before pictures were made, did you walk through the crime scene to make sure what you wanted to take pictures of and preserve? Did you do that before it got started?
Thomas Ogden. (08:35:54):
When I first got on scene, I did go down there to see all what had occurred, yes.
Judge (08:36:00):
Are you directing Amanda Carter also to help with the pictures?
Thomas Ogden. (08:36:05):
Yes, sir. Yeah, we were working hand in hand.
Judge (08:36:07):
Okay. Now, this item right here, do you recognize what I'm highlighting there? Can you see that?
Thomas Ogden. (08:36:13):
That's the McDonald's bag?
Judge (08:36:15):
Yes, sir.
Thomas Ogden. (08:36:16):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:36:17):
And what, if anything, did you notice about the McDonald's bag?
Thomas Ogden. (08:36:23):
It still had uneaten food in it, French fries, and a sandwich of some sort. I don't know what type of sandwich it was.
Judge (08:36:35):
Now, did you do anything with that McDonald's bag?
Thomas Ogden. (08:36:42):
I don't remember. That's one, I think, Amanda took the photos, and I don't think we put that into evidence.
Judge (08:36:51):
Okay. What about this item right here, sir?
Thomas Ogden. (08:36:54):
That is the firearm, the revolver.
Judge (08:36:57):
And what, if anything, was done with that?
Thomas Ogden. (08:37:01):
That was placed into evidence.
Judge (08:37:03):
And who did that?
Thomas Ogden. (08:37:04):
Amanda Carter.
Judge (08:37:06):
Okay. Now, did you notice anything unusual about that handgun?
Thomas Ogden. (08:37:14):
It did have blood on the... I guess it'd be the pearl handle. And then it also appeared, it looked like it had a little bit of blood on the silver part. I just can't remember exactly where on it was.
Judge (08:37:29):
The next photograph, please.
Speaker 21 (08:37:30):
State's 76.
Judge (08:37:43):
Now, State's 76, did you notice the type of clothing that this defendant was wearing?
Thomas Ogden. (08:37:45):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:37:45):
I mean, the victim was wearing in this case?
Thomas Ogden. (08:37:49):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:37:51):
And what are these things that I'm highlighting here, these two black things on his abdomen?
Thomas Ogden. (08:37:57):
They appear to be drawstrings of the pants.
Judge (08:38:01):
Okay. Well, how would you describe those clothes as whether they're tight-fitting or loose-fitting? What would you say?
Thomas Ogden. (08:38:13):
I'd say loose-fitting.
Judge (08:38:13):
Did you see any indications of a belt when you got on the scene?
Thomas Ogden. (08:38:17):
No, sir.
Judge (08:38:18):
Did you see any indications of a holster being worn on this body when you got on the scene?
Thomas Ogden. (08:38:25):
No, sir.
Judge (08:38:28):
We'll go to the next one, please, sir.
Speaker 21 (08:38:34):
State's 28.
Judge (08:38:38):
Now, do you recognize this as the entranceway to the room where this body was located?
Thomas Ogden. (08:38:43):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:38:46):
And when you walked down the stairs, what was the first thing that drew your attention?
Thomas Ogden. (08:38:51):
Walk down, you basically go to the left just a little bit, and immediately, I could see the deceased almost in the doorway.
Judge (08:39:00):
All right. The next picture?
Speaker 21 (08:39:07):
State's 29.
Judge (08:39:10):
Is that another picture from a different angle so you can see a little more of the room, in comparison to where he's in the room?
Thomas Ogden. (08:39:17):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:39:18):
And the next page, next picture?
Speaker 21 (08:39:26):
State's 30.
Judge (08:39:29):
And this is additional... This is even closer up of the victim here. Do you remember what this is up here in the upper right-hand corner?
Thomas Ogden. (08:39:40):
The upper right-hand corner, those were car keys.
Judge (08:39:43):
Okay. And this right here is...
Thomas Ogden. (08:39:46):
That would've been the revolver.
Judge (08:39:48):
Okay. Now, what about this right here? What is that right there?
Thomas Ogden. (08:39:54):
That is a McDonald's cup that had a drink in it.
Judge (08:40:01):
Okay. Now, was there anything unusual about that cup that drew your attention to that cup and where it's located?
Thomas Ogden. (08:40:08):
Yes, sir. There was a wet spot, and I believe there was still almost melted ice in that one spot where apparently the cup had fallen.
Judge (08:40:20):
Okay. So you could tell there was some kind of dampness or something around where that cup was?
Thomas Ogden. (08:40:25):
Yes, sir. You could see it.
Judge (08:40:27):
And when you saw that cup, was it as it is in that picture there? Was it on its side there?
Thomas Ogden. (08:40:33):
Correct. Everything was as is when I got there.
Judge (08:40:37):
And was the liquid at the front of the cup or behind the cup of the damp spot?
Thomas Ogden. (08:40:44):
It would've been the damp. I don't remember if it... I'm pretty sure it was in the front, but...
Judge (08:40:48):
Okay. Let's get to the main picture please.
Speaker 21 (08:40:53):
State's 60.
Judge (08:40:59):
And in this photograph, it's from a different angle. Can you tell that the pants that Mr. Akers was wearing at this point, that they are pretty loose?
Thomas Ogden. (08:41:11):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:41:13):
And have you worn a gun before on a holster, on a pants?
Thomas Ogden. (08:41:21):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:41:24):
From your experience, would pants that loose be able to support a weapon and a holster on the...
Thomas Ogden. (08:41:31):
No, sir.
Judge (08:41:33):
What about if you're just putting the pants in the waistband of something that loose, would that even do it?
Thomas Ogden. (08:41:40):
It would depend.
Judge (08:41:44):
Well, did anybody, to your knowledge, touch this body before these photographs were made here on the... Well, let me rephrase that. Did you see anybody touch the body at all while you were there?
Thomas Ogden. (08:42:01):
No, sir. Not until the coroner, of course, got on the scene.
Judge (08:42:05):
So it hadn't been manipulated at all until the coroner got there?
Thomas Ogden. (08:42:08):
Correct.
Judge (08:42:09):
All right. Let's go to the next one.
Speaker 21 (08:42:10):
State's 59.
Judge (08:42:18):
And this is another picture, and you can see the keys a little better in this picture. Is that right?
Thomas Ogden. (08:42:25):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:42:26):
And there's the gun. Then this is the McDonald's bag right here.
Thomas Ogden. (08:42:29):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:42:30):
And would you assess from what you're observing from the bag and the keys and the gun, what did you think about that? Did anything strike you as unusual about that?
Thomas Ogden. (08:42:50):
So it's just, at this point, I didn't know what happened. It could have been a self-inflicting gunshot wound. It could have been a homicide. It was a death investigation, so I really wasn't leaning one way or another at that time.
Judge (08:43:05):
Okay. Let's go to the next picture.
Speaker 21 (08:43:07):
State's 61.
Judge (08:43:17):
Now, have you ever been to a homicide before with a gunshot wound?
Thomas Ogden. (08:43:22):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:43:23):
And what about the location of this gun compared to your experience on arriving at a location where a gunshot wound has occurred on a suicide?
Thomas Ogden. (08:43:35):
On a suicide, I had actually just worked one not too long before this, and I specifically remember, he was a Marine and he had shot himself at the edge of the bed. Bed here, he's facing the bed, and he fell forward, and the gun, his finger's still on the trigger well of the gun. He's still holding the gun as he would've shot.
Judge (08:43:59):
Next photograph please, sir.
Speaker 21 (08:44:04):
State's 47.
Judge (08:44:12):
And this is another view of the bag in relation to where Mr. Akers is laying on the floor?
Thomas Ogden. (08:44:20):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:44:20):
All right. And the next one?
Speaker 21 (08:44:24):
State's 48.
Judge (08:44:29):
Can you go to the next, please?
Speaker 21 (08:44:33):
State's 51.
Judge (08:44:42):
Now, the gun, when you're looking at the gun, did you notice Mr. Akers' hands?
Thomas Ogden. (08:44:53):
Yes, sir.
Judge (08:44:54):
And what'd you notice about his hands when you looked at him on the scene?
Thomas Ogden. (08:45:01):
I mean, they're basically laid out.
Thomas Ogden. (08:45:01):
I mean, they're basically laid out both left arm on left side, right arm on the right side.
Lawyer (08:45:09):
All right. Let's go to the next photograph, please.
Speaker 22 (08:45:17):
State's 53.
Lawyer (08:45:21):
And is this a picture of the... What is this a picture of, right by his left foot?
Thomas Ogden. (08:45:27):
That would be the lid to the McDonald's cup that's right there, the lid with the straw in it still.
Lawyer (08:45:34):
And where is the cup in relation to where that lid is?
Thomas Ogden. (08:45:40):
I believe it's back towards that trashcan that would've been against-
Lawyer (08:45:43):
Right back in this area?
Thomas Ogden. (08:45:44):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (08:45:44):
All right. You can go to the next one, please.
Speaker 22 (08:45:55):
State's 56.
Lawyer (08:46:03):
All right, if you can go to the next one.
Speaker 22 (08:46:03):
State's 52.
Lawyer (08:46:03):
And you can go to next one also, sir.
Speaker 22 (08:46:09):
State's 62.
Lawyer (08:46:12):
62. All right, now Officer, when you look at this gun that's displayed in the State's Exhibit 62, what did you notice about the grip of the gun?
Thomas Ogden. (08:46:27):
It did have a blood spot on that handle, on the pearl-type handle right there.
Lawyer (08:46:34):
And am I circling what you're describing?
Thomas Ogden. (08:46:37):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (08:46:37):
Okay. All right, and the next picture.
Speaker 22 (08:46:44):
State's 174.
Lawyer (08:46:49):
And did you help with this photograph being taken.
Thomas Ogden. (08:46:54):
No, sir.
Lawyer (08:46:55):
Okay. This is a picture of... What is this a picture of?
Thomas Ogden. (08:47:01):
That is the revolver with the... I don't know what you call that, the spin part of the revolver, but it's opened up with the rounds inside it.
Lawyer (08:47:09):
Okay. And when you're talking about the rounds, what are you talking about?
Thomas Ogden. (08:47:13):
Those are the bullets that are in here.
Lawyer (08:47:16):
And with that, this is a revolver. Is that correct?
Thomas Ogden. (08:47:21):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (08:47:22):
And what happens when you fire a round in a revolver? What happens to the shell casing in a revolver?
Thomas Ogden. (08:47:29):
It stays in it.
Lawyer (08:47:30):
Okay.
Thomas Ogden. (08:47:30):
It basically, when you fire it, it clicks over to the next round, so the casing stays inside the gun.
Lawyer (08:47:38):
Okay. So there's no shell casing or anything around when you fire a revolver. It stays right with the revolver?
Thomas Ogden. (08:47:43):
That's correct.
Lawyer (08:47:43):
Okay. The next one.
Speaker 22 (08:47:51):
State's 63.
Lawyer (08:47:55):
And this is the way Mr. Akers' hand was in relation to the gun when you arrived on the scene. This picture right here shows where his hand was, where his thumb was, everything at the time you saw this body. Is that correct?
Thomas Ogden. (08:48:09):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (08:48:11):
All right, the next one please, sir.
Speaker 22 (08:48:13):
State's 64.
Lawyer (08:48:16):
You can go to the next one, please.
Speaker 22 (08:48:17):
State's 31.
Lawyer (08:48:27):
Now, State's 31, this shows you the... Is this the cup you were talking about earlier?
Thomas Ogden. (08:48:32):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (08:48:33):
And then this is the lid you were talking about earlier?
Thomas Ogden. (08:48:38):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (08:48:38):
And this is the bag you were talking about. Is that right?
Thomas Ogden. (08:48:39):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (08:48:41):
Do you have any idea what this is over here?
Thomas Ogden. (08:48:44):
I don't. I think it was a rag, but honestly, I'm not sure.
Lawyer (08:48:49):
All right, sir. And what about these things right here that I'm circling? Do you know what that is?
Thomas Ogden. (08:48:55):
Those were blood spots.
Lawyer (08:48:57):
All right. If you go to the next one, please.
Speaker 22 (08:48:58):
State's 47.
Lawyer (08:49:11):
Now, State's 47, do you recognize this, sir?
Thomas Ogden. (08:49:17):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (08:49:18):
And what is this?
Thomas Ogden. (08:49:19):
That's the McDonald's bag that was laying next to him.
Lawyer (08:49:22):
Now, what about this part of the bag? Does anything [inaudible 08:49:26] about that part of the bag?
Thomas Ogden. (08:49:28):
It appears to be a bloody handprint.
Lawyer (08:49:33):
Okay. And where is the bloody handprint? Take us directly to it.
Thomas Ogden. (08:49:39):
As in-
Lawyer (08:49:41):
Am I-
Thomas Ogden. (08:49:41):
Oh.
Lawyer (08:49:42):
... highlighting it now? Can you see?
Thomas Ogden. (08:49:43):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (08:49:44):
Okay. And the next one please, sir.
Speaker 22 (08:50:07):
That's the correction on that, State's 55.
Lawyer (08:50:07):
Okay. I'm glad you said it. I can't read it.
Speaker 22 (08:50:07):
State's 33.
Lawyer (08:50:07):
All right, you can go to the next one.
Speaker 22 (08:50:07):
State's 32.
Lawyer (08:50:16):
And you can go to the next one after that please, sir.
Speaker 22 (08:50:16):
State's 169.
Lawyer (08:50:16):
And you can go to the next one after that.
Speaker 22 (08:50:16):
State's 172.
Lawyer (08:50:24):
You can go to the... Well, let's talk about this one just a second. This, State's 172, there's an item here that's different than in the other pictures. What is this thing I'm highlighting right here?
Thomas Ogden. (08:50:38):
The yellow placard?
Lawyer (08:50:40):
Yes, sir.
Thomas Ogden. (08:50:40):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (08:50:41):
What is that?
Thomas Ogden. (08:50:42):
That's something that Detective Carter used to number the evidence or the pictures that she was going to take.
Lawyer (08:50:50):
Okay. And did you help her determine that, or did she put them out there, or do you even remember?
Thomas Ogden. (08:50:56):
I don't recall. I'm pretty sure she would've taken care of that part.
Lawyer (08:50:59):
So is that a way to note the item that was collected as whatever this is going to be? Is that going to be item number one that's being collected?
Thomas Ogden. (08:51:09):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (08:51:10):
Okay. Let's go to the next one please, sir.
Speaker 22 (08:51:14):
State's 79, and the last one.
Lawyer (08:51:19):
Okay, and that's the same view at a different angle. Is that correct?
Thomas Ogden. (08:51:22):
Correct. Yes, sir.
Lawyer (08:51:22):
All right. Now, after you've had the... And you took all these photographs here, that you went through all of them, you recognize them, and you recognize all the crime scene photographs. Is that correct?
Thomas Ogden. (08:51:37):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (08:51:40):
Now, this is done. All these things are photographed. What, if anything, do you do after that, sir? After you've worked this crime scene, what do you do?
Thomas Ogden. (08:51:49):
The coroner was called. Once she arrived on scene, she basically takes the deceased, and I believe the coroner took her to the GBI crime lab for the autopsy.
Lawyer (08:52:03):
All right. Did you go down and observe the autopsy?
Thomas Ogden. (08:52:06):
I did not, no.
Lawyer (08:52:07):
Okay. Once the body was removed and taken down to the GBI to be evaluated, what, if anything, were you doing with regard to this case at that point?
Thomas Ogden. (08:52:21):
At that point, we just make sure we basically have everything. We're basically, at that point, getting ready to leave and making sure that we have everything that we need and, at that point, it will get documented, report-wise.
Lawyer (08:52:37):
Now, is that when you signed out of the crime scene on the crime scene log, is when you left?
Thomas Ogden. (08:52:44):
No, sir. I believe that time was when I left for the hospital.
Lawyer (08:52:47):
Okay. What about when you came back? Or did you ever come back to the crime scene that night?
Thomas Ogden. (08:52:52):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (08:52:53):
Okay. And about what time did you leave the crime scene after you came back?
Thomas Ogden. (08:52:58):
I'm not going to be sure on the exact time.
Lawyer (08:53:01):
Okay. Now let me ask you this. You saw the defendant at the hospital. That's one time you saw her.
Thomas Ogden. (08:53:11):
Yes.
Lawyer (08:53:12):
The next time you saw her was when?
Thomas Ogden. (08:53:15):
December 30th in the interview room at the sheriff's office.
Lawyer (08:53:19):
Did you ever see her again?
Thomas Ogden. (08:53:23):
Not when I left the hospital, no.
Lawyer (08:53:24):
Okay. Now what about after December 30th? Did you ever see her again after December 30th?
Thomas Ogden. (08:53:30):
After December 30th, yes, sir.
Lawyer (08:53:32):
Okay. When did you see her again?
Thomas Ogden. (08:53:33):
It would've been January 7th for her to come in and write a statement.
Lawyer (08:53:40):
You had her come in where to write a statement?
Thomas Ogden. (08:53:44):
Oh, sorry. To the sheriff's office, to interview room number one again, the same interview room, and for her to write a statement.
Lawyer (08:53:52):
Now, how was that interview conducted?
Thomas Ogden. (08:53:57):
Basically, same thing. She came in her own free will. I explained to her that I would like to have a written statement for the case file, of her own words of what happened that night. She agreed to come in, and basically, she writes a statement, and that was pretty much it.
Speaker X (08:54:18):
[inaudible 08:54:52].
Lawyer (08:55:30):
Officer Ogden, I show you as previously being marked for identification in State's Exhibit number 183 and ask if you recognize that.
Thomas Ogden. (08:55:37):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (08:55:39):
All right, let me show this to counsel.
Speaker X (08:55:39):
That's fine.
(08:55:39)
[inaudible 08:55:54].
Lawyer (08:55:58):
Okay. And how do you recognize State's Exhibit number 183, sir?
Thomas Ogden. (08:56:04):
That's the USB with the interview of January 7th, where she writes the statement.
Lawyer (08:56:14):
Now, you've got a USB of her writing this statement. How did you happen to do that?
Thomas Ogden. (08:56:25):
Well, at first, it's a... We used DVDs then. That's what we had, but we used the DVDs to make a copy, and then at some point, it was placed onto the USB.
Lawyer (08:56:35):
Okay. And so you recognize this as being a copy from the DVD that was actually-
Thomas Ogden. (08:56:42):
Yes, sir.
Lawyer (08:56:42):
... made at the time she gave the interview?
Thomas Ogden. (08:56:43):
Correct.
Lawyer (08:56:45):
And Your Honor, at this time, the state would tender into evidence State's Exhibit number 183.
Judge Bucci (08:56:52):
Any objection?
Brian Steel (08:56:56):
Sustain the objection, previously wrote.
Judge Bucci (08:56:56):
All right. [inaudible 08:56:58].
Lawyer (08:57:04):
Well actually...
Judge Bucci (08:57:08):
Well, I say that because I'm going to send them home with [inaudible 08:57:12].
Lawyer (08:57:12):
Okay. It might be best to do that, and then we can address the issue out of the presence of the jury.
Judge Bucci (08:57:17):
Okay. All right, so that's going to wrap up our day. Thank you very much. We're going to start again at 9:00 in the morning. Please remember my instructions.
Speaker X (08:57:24):
Your Honor?
Judge Bucci (08:57:24):
Yes?
Speaker X (08:57:24):
[inaudible 08:57:36].
Judge Bucci (08:57:40):
All right. Can y'all leave the transcript in the courtroom, please, not take it with you?
Speaker 23 (08:58:33):
Yes.
Speaker X (08:58:33):
[inaudible 08:58:34].
(08:58:33)
Both of them, or?
Judge Bucci (08:58:33):
Both of them.
Speaker X (08:58:33):
All right.
(08:58:33)
[inaudible 08:58:34].
Judge Bucci (08:58:33):
Thank you. That's okay. We'll [inaudible 08:58:34].
Lawyer (08:58:35):
Your Honor, what I wanted to address out of the presence of the jury is on this statement, it starts off with some encounter and colloquy between the detective and the defendant, and then it sits... The defendant is by herself, and she's writing out the statement. I didn't have the witness read her statement, but I was going to ask if it would be possible to just fast-forward the video to the part where she's just sitting there, unless of course defense counsel wants me to play the video where she is not actually saying anything.
Brian Steel (08:59:19):
I think if I'm tracking the prosecutor, I think I would like, and I could do it myself but I think I'm given the options here, the jurors to see Ms. Boles actually write, because she never stops writing. So I think that's kind of contextually important.
Judge Bucci (08:59:40):
All right, so Mr. Cole, you're telling me there's some period prior to her writing-
Lawyer (08:59:46):
Well, yes. Well, there is, and after she finishes writing, there's some more, but we can just play the entire video.
Judge Bucci (08:59:53):
Okay.
Lawyer (08:59:58):
At some point, the statement needs to be read, so I guess play the entire video and then I will have the detective read the statement after the video is played. I don't know. I guess that would be the way to go.
Brian Steel (09:00:12):
Whatever the-
Lawyer (09:00:17):
[inaudible 09:00:18].
Brian Steel (09:00:17):
... state wants to do [inaudible 09:00:18] objections [inaudible 09:00:18]
Judge Bucci (09:00:17):
And how long is the video?
Brian Steel (09:00:20):
I can tell you.
Lawyer (09:00:20):
Is it 52 minutes?
Brian Steel (09:00:20):
Yes, it's a lot.
Judge Bucci (09:00:25):
52 minutes?
Lawyer (09:00:27):
I'm guessing. I [inaudible 09:00:29].
Judge Bucci (09:00:29):
Okay. And Mr. Steel, you want the entire thing played?
Brian Steel (09:00:33):
Yeah. Well, part of it, I think, is redacted, because I think it talks about the arrest, that the court eliminated, so I'm assuming that's redacted.
Lawyer (09:00:42):
It is out.
Brian Steel (09:00:44):
But then I believe that the entirety of the video, understanding that it's been redacted, should be... I don't know. I don't have it timestamped, so I don't have...
Lawyer (09:01:09):
Your Honor, I'll think about how I want to proceed on that.
Judge Bucci (09:01:12):
All right. I just understood from what you said initially, Mr. Cole, that there was just going to be time where she's doing nothing, she's just sitting there.
Lawyer (09:01:19):
Well, she's writing.
Judge Bucci (09:01:20):
She's writing the whole time? Okay.
Lawyer (09:01:21):
Yep. But that's all right. So I'll just decide how I want the video [inaudible 09:01:26].
Judge Bucci (09:01:27):
Okay. Then we will let you play that in the morning and I'll warn the jurors that it's going to be lengthy.
Brian Steel (09:01:35):
Thank you, Your Honor.
Judge Bucci (09:01:39):
All right. Anything before we break? No?
Brian Steel (09:01:42):
Not [inaudible 09:01:42].
Judge Bucci (09:01:44):
Okay. We'll start at 9:00. Thank you.
Speaker X (09:01:45):
[inaudible 09:01:46].
Brian Steel (09:01:45):
Thank you, sir.
Speaker X (09:01:45):
[inaudible 09:01:50].
Judge Bucci (09:02:18):
Oh, before y'all leave, I did get a note. What am I up to? I'm sorry. [inaudible 09:02:23].
Speaker X (09:02:24):
Number three.
Judge Bucci (09:02:25):
[inaudible 09:02:25] I'm up to three?
Brian Steel (09:02:26):
Your Honor, should we get Ms. Boles, or?
Judge Bucci (09:02:29):
Yes, I'm going to read a note.
Speaker X (09:02:30):
I'll get her. [inaudible 09:02:32].
Judge Bucci (09:02:40):
All right, so Court's Exhibit 3 is a note that with handed to me by the bailiff before the break, and-
