Hallie Jackson (00:00):
Tonight, as you can see, just really within the last couple of hours, I sat down exclusively with the biggest group of survivors and their family members brought together. At the same time, some of these people had never met each other before, including a woman who has never before come forward to share her story about the abuse she says she faced at the hands of Jeffrey Epstein.
(00:20)
I want to play for you now my conversation with these individuals. You're hearing for the very first time right here on NBC News Now.
(00:29)
A show of hands here, if you or somebody you love was abused or trafficked by Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell.
(00:37)
All of you.
(00:39)
So, given that you are here together, the nine of you in this room, in this, what feels like a show of solidarity, why? Why did you decide to come here today? Jess?
Jess Michaels (00:52):
I'm coming here because there's been a severe miscarriage of justice, a delay in accountability, and we've all come together beautifully and tragically, which feels healing and devastating all at the same time to speak out and to be fueled by each other's voices in a way that I don't know that we've had the opportunity to in the past.
Lisa Phillips (01:21):
Beautifully said, I'm here for the same reasons, but for me, the most important thing is accountability. My whole mission is to get somebody, or the majority of the people to be held accountable for what they did and what we've all been suffering through for the last 15, 20 years.
Hallie Jackson (01:44):
Marijke, somebody who has spoken publicly about your experience before, What does it mean to you to be sitting alongside eight other people and telling your story and then being here?
Marijke Chartouni (01:53):
I mean, today, I mean, I didn't think I would be here six years later from when I was here in 2019. I guess I just like to say that I'm sorry. It's always a bit nerve wracking to speak on camera like this, but I just want to say that the government has failed us. I mean, Maria Farmer reported this in 1996, and now there's a pending lawsuit where hopefully there will be some accountability.
Hallie Jackson (02:27):
Jena-Lisa, how about you?
Jen-Alisa (02:29):
I'm here once again speaking our truth and kind of beside myself that we're even having to do this again because they never did what they should have done in the beginning. So now here we are having to do interviews like this to get our voices out there because they didn't just listen to us the first time we said it.
Hallie Jackson (02:54):
That must feel frustrating,
Jen-Alisa (02:55):
Extremely.
Hallie Jackson (02:58):
The idea of repeating, having to do this again and again. Did you ever think you'd have to?
Jen-Alisa (03:02):
No. I mean, in 2019 when I spoke up and went public on what had happened to me in 2003 at 14 years old was something that I should have never had to have done in my life. It should have been taken care of and handled from the beginning and been investigated properly too. So we wouldn't have had to be at this point. I should have never had to put my face on camera so that someone would listen to me.
Hallie Jackson (03:34):
Want to first get to Sky and Amanda and Danny who are here representing your sister, Virginia Giuffre. Danny, what message, Sky, what message does it send to be here with this group in this, as Liz described this almost show of strength.
Sky Roberts (03:59):
Sorry. She should be here. I am so honored to be here with you guys. She would be here. She'd be screaming and I think they said it best. It's like if I could really say what we're looking for out of this is justice, looking for accountability, and I think we really have to start questioning what do we stand for? So it means the world to be here with you, all of you. And I think this is only the beginning of what's really to come because showing a force like this, they have to listen now.
Hallie Jackson (04:47):
Some of you had not met before today. Am I right in understanding that? This is your first time for some of you meeting each other?
Wendy Avis (04:53):
Sorry.
Hallie Jackson (04:54):
No, that's okay. And Wendy? Yeah, take a beat. No, because this is your first time. You have never before spoken publicly about your experience.
Wendy Avis (05:06):
Correct.
Hallie Jackson (05:06):
I'm going to ask you to share some of your experience now. What were your interactions with Jeffrey Epstein? What can you tell us?
Wendy Avis (05:15):
My interactions if you guys have followed or know Jena's story. Jena's one of my best friends from middle school, I would say. And it's pretty much the same story in that aspect.
Hallie Jackson (05:33):
How old were you?
Wendy Avis (05:34):
I was 14.
Hallie Jackson (05:36):
And how did you first encounter either Jeffrey Epstein or Elaine Maxwell?
Wendy Avis (05:41):
Through friends, I was very normal, I guess, through friends.
Hallie Jackson (05:48):
And where were you? This was in Florida?
Wendy Avis (05:50):
Yes.
Hallie Jackson (05:51):
And did you go to the home in Palm Beach? Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
Wendy Avis (05:56):
Yes. I went to the home in Palm Beach.
Hallie Jackson (05:58):
Okay. And what were you involved in there? What did he ask you to do?
Wendy Avis (06:03):
I'm not really comfortable answering that. It's the same as if you follow the story, you know what I was asked to do.
Hallie Jackson (06:10):
How did you extract yourself from this abuse?
Wendy Avis (06:14):
I moved very quickly. My family moved me out of Florida, so I exited that world and had no access to it, thankfully.
Hallie Jackson (06:27):
And how did you cope with that trauma?
Wendy Avis (06:32):
You just put it behind you and don't think about it.
Hallie Jackson (06:37):
Is that what you did?
Wendy Avis (06:39):
Yeah, until it was brought up that, "Hey, this is a big deal in 2019," I think. This is a real big deal and it's your truth. So here's what's happening. And…
Hallie Jackson (06:58):
It sounds like you almost buried Jeffrey Epstein's memory, his name.
Wendy Avis (07:02):
Oh, absolutely.
Hallie Jackson (07:02):
And then all of a sudden, all these years later here it comes back into the public spotlight again. What was that like for you?
Wendy Avis (07:10):
So I had never really thought about it, I guess because I just put it behind you didn't talk about it, didn't think about it, nothing. And it was kind of like, okay, now you have to heal from this. Now you have to address it and face it for the first time ever, like this is real.
Hallie Jackson (07:35):
It's almost like you're in denial maybe?
Wendy Avis (07:37):
No, at that point I'm 30. I had moved on, I had a career, a family, and now it's like, "Okay, well it's the truth, and it's my truth. So it's time to start processing through that."
Hallie Jackson (07:59):
At the time, did you tell any of your family members what had happened to you with Epstein?
Wendy Avis (08:02):
At that time? No.
Hallie Jackson (08:05):
After, did you?
Wendy Avis (08:06):
No.
Hallie Jackson (08:07):
When did you finally tell if you have, I assume to this point, told family members?
Wendy Avis (08:11):
Yes.
Hallie Jackson (08:11):
Okay.
Wendy Avis (08:13):
I told pretty much after everything was in motion.
Hallie Jackson (08:20):
Okay. Meaning the cases and the investigation.
Wendy Avis (08:23):
That I had decided that I was going to pursue it. So I had to come clean to people and be like, "Hey, I did this and I don't know what's going to happen. But it is true."
Hallie Jackson (08:35):
Did you reach out to law enforcement at that point?
Wendy Avis (08:38):
No. I was contacted through the puzzle pieces that they put together to connect victims to victims, to victims. I was on the bulletin board somewhere.
Hallie Jackson (08:56):
And here you are all these years later sitting in this room with these other women, with these other family members. Why now? Why are you deciding to speak and to share your story now?
Wendy Avis (09:05):
Because not because everybody is getting justice, and that's not right, just because you think that some victims in their mind got justice. It's not right. The everyday person is out there, and that's me, and we're victims. You could be… Your neighbor, could be a victim, and you don't know it. The person you pass in a grocery store and they're not talking. And I think that, like she said, power in numbers, even if I'm just counted as statistically in the numbers as another victim, that's enough for me.
(09:48)
They're not. They're not protecting our youth. They're continuing to allow the same thing that happened to us is happening still, maybe not with them, but it happens and it's happening.
(10:03)
So, I took my time and saying something, and I've always been in contact with Jena. I had a young daughter trying to start my career. It was a big shock to my husband. So I took the time and I said, when I felt like I was ready, it's not a secret. It's just something that I didn't normally talk about.
Hallie Jackson (10:30):
Yeah.
Wendy Avis (10:30):
So now I'm ready to say, you know what? If I am the everyday Joe Schmo and I have this story, I want to be able to inspire other people to say, "Hey, me too." I mean, I don't want to say the Me Too, not trying to do that, but it happened to me too, and I want to support her.
(10:57)
She's been doing all this for years alone, and she doesn't deserve to do it alone.
Hallie Jackson (11:06):
And I know that that's emotional for you. I can see it in your-
Wendy Avis (11:08):
And it's also emotional. I haven't met them today, but going through stuff like this, especially as an adult, it brings up a lot of mental health issues. And I've thought of hurting myself and not now, but over the last six or so years, just going through all this. And it's hard. And I know that if I have those thoughts and Virginia has those thoughts and we're victims, how many more of us do we have to lose?
Hallie Jackson (11:42):
Why do you want to see more of these documents released publicly?
Amanda Roberts (11:46):
Accountability. Right? I think all this time we've forgotten how large of a scale this really is. What Virginia did, what these women did, it's unprecedented. This was a global operation. It takes multiple people to make this happen over a span of decades. Those people deserve to be accountable too. And they have that information, they have that information, they have the power to do the right thing. And that is what we're here for.
Hallie Jackson (12:20):
Are you all satisfied? And then I'll do a couple more show of hands, but are you all satisfied generally with the level of communication that you've had or that your representatives have had from members of Congress? Do you feel like your voices have been heard from members of Congress?
Group (12:33):
No. No.
Hallie Jackson (12:33):
Jess, you're giving me a face. You're saying, "No way."
Jess Michaels (12:35):
My eyebrows don't lie. No. I've heard zero communication. I mean, I don't know about, I've heard nothing from any representatives, personally. I don't. I have not.
Hallie Jackson (12:50):
So can I get a show of hands? Who here is satisfied with the level of contact they've had from Congress? Nobody. Let me ask this. How about the Justice Department? I want to ask a couple of things about what you knew about things that were happening with this case that you're obviously involved with. Show of hands.
(13:08)
Did any of you hear from the Justice Department before they released that memo, that two-page memo earlier this summer? No hands.
(13:15)
Were any of you told that Todd Blanche would be speaking with Ghislaine Maxwell prior to that interview over the course of two days?
Group (13:22):
No.
Hallie Jackson (13:22):
No, no. Were any of you told about the prison transfer that Ghislaine Maxwell?
Group (13:27):
No.
Hallie Jackson (13:29):
Do any of you feel that the DOJ has communicated with you enough this year?
Group (13:33):
No. No.
Hallie Jackson (13:34):
Have any of you had any communication with the DOJ?
Group (13:36):
No.
Hallie Jackson (13:38):
Nobody in this room has heard at all from the Department of Justice?
Group (13:41):
No.
Hallie Jackson (13:43):
Is that surprising to you?
Group (13:45):
No.
Jess Michaels (13:46):
No.
Amanda Roberts (13:47):
It should be.
Jess Michaels (13:47):
It should. Yeah.
Amanda Roberts (13:48):
It should be. You think it's their job. This is the center of this whole entire case. They are the center. Why would… Ghislaine Maxwell, let's get this right before the narrative changes. And I believe that so strongly that that is the intent of her. She's trying to rewrite history, and it was almost like she was given that platform to do that. And that is not acceptable on any terms.
(14:20)
She wasn't just this co-conspirator and that was her boyfriend. She was actively participant. She preyed upon these young girls and she used her womanhood to do it.
Jess Michaels (14:33):
Yes.
Amanda Roberts (14:33):
Okay. Virginia said it that she was vicious. She was a monster. She doesn't deserve any type of platform.
Jess Michaels (14:44):
Or yoga and Pilates.
Hallie Jackson (14:47):
That's a reference to the prison camp she's now in.
Jess Michaels (14:49):
Yeah. I mean, it's absurd. It's absurd what's happening.
Hallie Jackson (14:53):
Liz, I have to ask you, what did you think when you heard about, let me start with the interview that the Deputy Attorney General that Todd Blanche conducted over the course of a couple of days with Ghislaine Maxwell. When you heard that that was being done, when you saw that transcript, when you heard her voice in that audio, what was that like for you?
Liz Stein (15:11):
I hope that I'm speaking for all of us and saying, we are willing to do whatever we need to find justice, and we're willing to talk about what happened to us so that the public knows what the truth is, and not the lies of someone who was convicted of this crime, whose freedom is being held in the balance and who has their own motives to both protect others and protect herself.
Hallie Jackson (15:46):
And Lisa, to you as somebody who attended Ghislaine Maxwell's trial, or at least parts of it?
Lisa Phillips (15:50):
Yes, I did.
Hallie Jackson (15:53):
The interview, the release of that audio, the prison transfer. What did you make of all that as it was happening over the course of the summer?
Lisa Phillips (16:00):
I was just disgusted by it. I just… Like she said, she was an abuser. There was one point when Jeffrey had called me to go meet with her after I had met her at a function, at a charity event.
(16:15)
I mean, thank God I didn't go, but just the climate in New York at that time, everybody knew that she was working with him, or had something that wasn't right with her. And so much has come out since then that we know her great involvement. I mean, some even say that she was the one that was the mastermind of a lot of it.
(16:39)
I'm not sure about that. But regardless, she is the abuser. And why are we so concerned with how she feels about things and her opinions about Trump or anybody else? She's a convicted felon, and so we need to move on from highlighting her as someone that we should be listening to.
Hallie Jackson (17:03):
So what would you say to the Department of Justice, as they were pursuing these conversations with her?
Lisa Phillips (17:07):
They have emails, they have flight logs, they have a list they've compiled, right? And I feel like if they're not going to release this list to the public that everybody wants to see, we want to know who it is. A lot of us survivors, no, we've been compiling lists of our own and we have so many other survivors, please come forward, and we'll compile our own list and seek justice on our own. I mean, I think that's what's going to happen next.
Hallie Jackson (17:35):
Are there other prominent individuals that you saw when you were with Jeffrey Epstein and others who you think should be followed up on by law enforcement?
Lisa Phillips (17:44):
Well, let me get this straight. Jeffrey wasn't doing this for himself. I mean, let's not beat around the bush, the parties, the charity events on the island, everyone that he was involved with. Not everybody, because obviously there was people that didn't, there were people that didn't know about what he was doing, but there were many people that knew what he was doing, that were involved in the sex trafficking ring.
Hallie Jackson (18:12):
Your sister described Ghislaine Maxwell as more evil than Jeffrey Epstein. That was something that she said publicly.
Amanda Roberts (18:19):
Yes.
Hallie Jackson (18:20):
And so I have to ask in the context of what is also in the ether at the moment, this idea of a potential pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell, how would you feel if she were to be pardoned, given your sister's comments about Maxwell?
Danny Wilson (18:33):
I think it's the biggest slap in the face for us as a family and to these girls and anybody that's been impacted by her. I think that, I don't think 20 years is enough.
Jen-Alisa (18:46):
Yeah.
Hallie Jackson (18:48):
You're referring to her sentence.
Danny Wilson (18:49):
Yeah. I think that people that are able to put that kind of evil out into the world should be either locked away forever. Our justice system, I think, is not harsh enough on something of that levity. And I know that if my sister were here with her sisters right now, she wouldn't be happy about it. We're not happy about it.
(19:24)
We woke up and even when she was moved, I was like, "I don't understand how the system works." I also, after the fact when she was… when the transcripts came out, I didn't see anything that she added to the narrative that would get her that move.
(19:49)
I don't understand how that kind of evil can be rewarded.
Hallie Jackson (19:55):
Let me do a show of hands. Who would like to see President Trump definitively rule out a pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell? Every single one of you. Marijke, are you frustrated he hasn't done so yet?
Marijke Chartouni (20:06):
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, just toying with the idea is an insult.
Hallie Jackson (20:11):
What would you say to the president if he could hear you right now about this? About the potential, pardon? About the case about all of this that's in the ether right now.
Marijke Chartouni (20:19):
I would ask why he's putting so much attention on the criminals, and why he seems to value them more than us.
Hallie Jackson (20:34):
Does anybody else have thoughts on that, Lisa, Jena-Lisa.
Lisa Phillips (20:37):
That's a good question.
Amanda Roberts (20:38):
Yeah.
Lisa Phillips (20:38):
Go ahead.
Amanda Roberts (20:39):
I would say it's so big right now because this administration ran their on this. These were promises that they had made. And if you are in that level, in that capacity, it's your diligence. It's your duty to do what your constituents, what your… The American public is asking you for. So that's all we're asking.
Jess Michaels (21:11):
And it's not just one side or the other. This is a nonpartisan issue everyone is asking. Even his base is asking.
Hallie Jackson (21:20):
Has anybody in this room heard anything from anybody at the White House or have your representatives?
Amanda Roberts (21:25):
No.
Hallie Jackson (21:26):
I do have to ask and I know, and it's just something that I think we're compelled to at this moment with the attention on President Trump. With these questions around a pardon? Did anybody see or hear of the president himself doing anything inappropriate as it related to Jeffrey Epstein?
Lisa Phillips (21:40):
No.
Wendy Avis (21:41):
No.
Hallie Jackson (21:41):
Or former President Clinton?
Wendy Avis (21:43):
No.
Hallie Jackson (21:43):
Are you glad there is a renewed spotlight on this? Is there anything good that you could see coming from this or is this reopening these incredibly traumatic moments for you? Is it a mixed bag? I wonder how you feel about that.
Jess Michaels (22:00):
I want to say something that we're not little girls anymore.
(22:05)
We're not little girls anymore. And so it's a different time in all of our lives and all of our different healing journeys where I think even five years ago, I would've not been able to sit here and talk about this. I think the fact that it's coming up now is horrific, and I think we're rising to the challenge to say this is unacceptable, and we are now more united than we've ever been separately. And so it's like I said, it's equally devastating at the same time, it's a really beautiful moment. Both are happening at the exact same time.
Hallie Jackson (22:44):
What's the next step that you want to see.
Jen-Alisa (22:47):
For them to finish this so that it can be over, it is heartbreaking to go on the news all the time and see all of this. It is heartbreaking to have friends send you news articles and be like, "Hey. Oh, this again, I thought this was over for you."
(23:04)
And then it's five years later, six years later, here we are again because they're still not doing something from when they started the investigation years and years and years prior to that, had they done their job in the first place, none of us would have to be sitting here on camera today.
Lisa Phillips (23:23):
Well, we won't get accountability until they reopen an investigation. What I'd like to see happen too.
Hallie Jackson (23:29):
Yeah. Who else would like to see the DOJ reopen this investigation?
Lisa Phillips (23:33):
Yeah.
Hallie Jackson (23:33):
Okay. All of you.
Jess Michaels (23:36):
I think, too, to your point when you were asking about what do we want to see and what does accountability mean? It's not just about the past and holding people accountable. What's going to change in the future, because that's where I think the American people are with us. They're like, okay, if they're not investigating this case with a 100,000 files in it, how is anyone ever going to get justice with their cases? I mean, this particular issue is rarely prosecuted, and there are 100,000 files right now sitting somewhere down the street and nobody is doing anything.
(24:13)
And so how is any mom going to ever see justice for their child, ever?
Liz Stein (24:22):
And my fear in all of this is that we are promoting a culture of silence, for as far as we came in opening up conversations in the Me Too movement. What is the message that we are sending to survivors of sexual violence about coming forward?
Marijke Chartouni (24:41):
Yes. Yes.
Liz Stein (24:42):
And how far back are we going to take ourselves as a nation if we don't give this the attention and scrutiny that it deserves, regardless of who is involved, this was a crime.
Lisa Phillips (25:00):
Yeah. Most of us are parents, so we want to see change for our children. That's really where it comes from from, from the heart.
Amanda Roberts (25:06):
That's real legislation. Yes, real legislation. We have way too many loopholes that allow predators to not be charged for their crimes. We have to dig deeper. So accountability always looks like the law should be the very first thing, right? It's the crucial. It's our belief in the justice system.
(25:30)
This case right now really depends on the American belief in the justice system. Everything they do, the Department of Justice is supposed to be the pillar of that.
Lisa Phillips (25:41):
Yes.
Amanda Roberts (25:42):
Okay. So this is where will you leave the American people? Where will you leave us? We can't believe in the system that is supposed to be stand for all and protect the vulnerable and the weak and do the process? So it's so intricate and it's so layered and there's so much work still to be done, to say that where does this end? It doesn't. It doesn't.
Lisa Phillips (26:10):
It doesn't.
Amanda Roberts (26:11):
Because we have to keep going and we have to dig deeper. We have to go through our laws and figure out, because it's not perfect. It's not perfect. There's still way too many loopholes that are happening right now. And so we have to dig deeper.
Hallie Jackson (26:25):
Show of hands, do you feel like your stories have been treated with dignity and respect, that your stories deserve? No. Okay. And I would imagine. I'll ask you. Does that trouble you, Liz?
Liz Stein (26:39):
Absolutely, it does. Absolutely it does. We haven't been protected up until this point. We haven't been protected and we haven't been informed. And it's an enormous burden to ask a survivor to name the names of their accusers when they don't feel like anything is going to be done about it. And when they know that doing so is going to only bring danger, potentially, to them and to the people that they love.
Hallie Jackson (27:15):
What has it meant to you, Wendy, as somebody who is coming forward now for the first time, and you've sat here and you've heard these stories and you've heard the perspectives from these women, these family members around you. What has this experience been like for you?
Wendy Avis (27:31):
It tells me that I'm making the right choice, and that's powerful to me because I don't have to second-guess myself anymore.
Hallie Jackson (27:43):
Thank you so much.
Wendy Avis (27:44):
Thank you.
Hallie Jackson (27:44):
I cannot thank all of you enough. We have reached out to various parties for comment, and we have heard back now from an attorney for Ghislaine Maxwell. We're going to read you this statement that NBC News has now received in just the last little bit. Here it is in full.
(27:59)
And I want to say again, this is from Ghislaine Maxwell's attorney saying "We can't respond to every outlandish claim against Ghislaine or we wouldn't be able to get any actual work done. As far as changing the narrative, most of these women did not mention Ghislaine when they were repeatedly interviewed by law enforcement back in the day."
(28:15)
David Markus, Maxwell's attorney goes on to say, "Only when plaintiffs' lawyers came knocking and dollar signs started flashing, did they start pointing the finger at Ghislaine? And let's not forget when Jeffrey Epstein was alive, she was not indicted in his case. Only after his death did the narrative wrongfully shift to try to make her the kingpin."
(28:30)
Again, a quote in full, the statement from David Markus, Ghislaine Maxwell's attorney. We have also reached out to the White House for a comment, and of course, the Department of Justice on the details of this interview, we have not yet heard back. We'll let you know when we do.
(28:42)
Remember, Maxwell is appealing her conviction on federal charges for recruiting and grooming teenage girls to be sexually abused by Jeffrey Epstein. You can see more of this exclusive conversation coming up in just a little bit tonight over on Nightly News tomorrow on today, and across all of our NBC News digital platforms.
Tom Llamas (29:00):
We thank you for watching. And remember, stay updated on breaking news and top stories on the NBC News app, or watch live on our YouTube channel.