DOJ Interview With Ghislaine Maxwell Day 2

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Test. Test. Test. Test.

Speaker 4 (00:06):

Looking right.

Speaker 1 (00:11):

Can't see it's blinking.

Speaker 4 (00:12):

As you talk, it'll-

Speaker 1 (00:13):

Hello. Test. Test. Test. Test.

Speaker 4 (00:16):

Look in the side of it right there as you're talking to it. Just talk.

Speaker 1 (00:19):

Test. Test. Test. I see it blinking. We're good. We're shutting it down. Test. Test. Test. It is Friday, July 25th, 9:07 A.M. My name is Spencer R. Horn. I'm the assistant special agent in charge in FBI, New York. This is day two of the proffer agreement recorded order of Ms. Maxwell.

(00:48)
Good morning. Today is Friday, July 25th. The time is 9:24 A.M. My name is Spencer R. Horn. I'm the assistant special agent in charge of FBI, New York, and we are here for a recorded proffer agreement with Ms. Maxwell.

Todd Blanche (01:06):

Good morning. Ms. Maxwell. How are you?

Ms. Maxwell (01:08):

Good morning.

Todd Blanche (01:10):

Good. So the proffer agreement we signed yesterday, there's a place on it for us to all kind of initial. It's exactly the same document, and you'll see your signature. If you can just initial right to the left of right here, right there.

Ms. Maxwell (01:30):

Okay.

Todd Blanche (01:30):

Then Mr. Marcus will initial as well.

Speaker 2 (01:34):

Thank you.

Todd Blanche (01:37):

Before we get going, I'll just say that exactly the same folks that were here when we met yesterday are here today. I'm not going to do formal introductions because it's exactly the same group of folks. So we're continuing, Ms. Maxwell, our discussion of yesterday, and the same kind of rules apply. We'll take breaks. If you need to talk to Mr. Marcus or your lawyers, absolutely no problem. Just let me know. I'll try to ask my questions in a coherent manner, but if there's anything that I say that's confusing, definitely interrupt me.

Ms. Maxwell (02:25):

I will. Thank you.

Todd Blanche (02:27):

So I think the easiest thing to start with is there anything that we talked about yesterday that… We're going to go through some more names. I think that that's one of the places that we interrupted, just because there's a lot of names, but aside from additional names, is there anything that you wanted to follow up on that we talked about yesterday or anything that you thought maybe you remember more of or not?

Ms. Maxwell (02:57):

Some more names did come to me in the night, and I did have some additional memories just for clarity. I believe I said that I couldn't think of anybody who I may have asked from Mar-a-Lago, but then I realized that the allegation at least is that I met (censored) in Mar-a-Lago. So I felt that I needed to address that, and I didn't want to leave that hanging because that seems weird under the circumstances.

Todd Blanche (03:30):

No. No. No. I-

Ms. Maxwell (03:38):

Also, but I couldn't remember anyone, and maybe it's a long period of time. So the issue is not that I'm trying to not say, but I don't remember anybody that I would have. But it's not impossible that I might've asked someone for that.

Todd Blanche (03:48):

I don't know exactly what you said yesterday, but I don't think what you said yesterday is different than what you just said. So yes. There's-

Ms. Maxwell (03:56):

Okay. I just didn't want to feel that I had said no to something and that it (censored).

Todd Blanche (04:02):

Definitely has said that she was working at Mar-a-Lago and that you received a treatment from her at some point, and that you recruited her to meet Mr. Epstein.

Ms. Maxwell (04:13):

Right.

Todd Blanche (04:14):

Do you know affirmatively whether that's true or false, or do you just not have a memory either way?

Ms. Maxwell (04:20):

I really don't believe it's true, but I know that I did go to spas, and if I met someone, I did ask if they're… So in the realms of possibility, it could have, but I have no memory of it, and I don't believe that it's how it went down, but I don't want to.

Todd Blanche (04:40):

Okay. So we talked a little bit yesterday about the financial part of your relationship with Mr. Epstein, being on payroll, for lack of a better word, for many, many years, starting around 25,000 and ending up at around 250,000 per year. As you know from your trial, there's banking information that shows a ton of money being sent to you from Mr. Epstein over the years. I think totaling something like $30 million, something like this. Why was that money sent to you? What was that for?

Ms. Maxwell (05:23):

Well, first of all, I dispute the characterization that the money was sent to me.

Todd Blanche (05:28):

Okay. So tell me. I am stuck with the witnesses at trial and what was said at trial on that issue. So what do you dispute about that?

Ms. Maxwell (05:41):

Well, I believe I don't have full recollection. I'm not even sure I ever saw what they accused me of, but my belief is that that money also contained money that was for a helicopter, for instance, that I never owned and was never mine.

Speaker 1 (06:03):

In other words, money was sent to you that you then used to purchase things or?

Ms. Maxwell (06:08):

Well, I'm not even sure that I purchased it. So those accounts would be controlled by his accountants.

Todd Blanche (06:15):

Even accounts in your name you're saying, or one of your entities?

Ms. Maxwell (06:19):

Well, I'm not even sure I knew of all the entities. Maybe I did contemporaneously, but I simply wouldn't know today. So if there was an entity, let's say account X, if I really set that up myself, or whether they said we're doing this and the money's coming or whatever, but in no substantive way, I can't think of the right word.

Todd Blanche (06:44):

Did you have control over-

Ms. Maxwell (06:45):

I had no control, is what I'm saying.

Todd Blanche (06:47):

Okay. So when there was testimony or the government admitted evidence that showed, for example, 5 million in 2002 coming from Epstein to you, okay, what you're saying is that that happened, but that he wasn't giving you money?

Ms. Maxwell (07:10):

I'm not going to say that for everything. Maybe there were accounts that money was sent to me, but like the helicopter. I can definitively say. I'd have to look at all of them to be accurate for you, but to explain how or why I could be receiving money, and I certainly did. I'm not disputing all of it.

Todd Blanche (07:35):

Let's go back to why did money have to go into your accounts or account that was controlled by others but in your name to purchase a helicopter?

Ms. Maxwell (07:46):

Oh, that's a very good question. I'm not sure I know the answer to that. I don't.

Todd Blanche (07:54):

So let me ask this maybe a different way that gets to the issue, right? So the accusation by the government based upon the evidence they collected, is that Epstein paid you millions and millions of dollars over the years. The reason why he paid you that is because you were performing an extraordinary service for him by recruiting young women, many of whom were underage, so that he could sexually abuse them. Okay. That's their allocation. From what you said yesterday, and from what I've reviewed about you and Mr. Epstein, he paid for a lot in your life.

Ms. Maxwell (08:41):

Absolutely.

Todd Blanche (08:42):

Your flights, where you stayed with him. I mean, he didn't expect you to reimburse him along the way for food. So he took care of you for many years.

Ms. Maxwell (08:51):

That is true.

Todd Blanche (08:52):

On top of that, he actually paid you a salary, as we talked about, 25,000 to 250,000. What else did he give you or what purchase? Was there a time when he gave you a million dollars or a $500,000 as a bonus, or what financial benefit did you receive from him? Besides what we've already talked about, we don't have to talk about what-

Ms. Maxwell (09:13):

I got it. I got it.

Todd Blanche (09:13):

Okay.

Ms. Maxwell (09:14):

So my goal always was to become independent, independently, financially secure and work for myself. I've never been one to not work. In that regard, over the course of my friendship and my working relationship with Epstein, I expressed to him my desire to be independent of him everywhere, just to be freestanding. With that in mind, I wanted to have my own businesses or my own money coming in independent and separate from any salary that I received from him.

(10:06)
I needed that for my self-esteem. I mean, obviously, sorry, and it was a very generous one. Please, I'm not belittling the sum of money because it's huge. But I was brought up to work, and I was brought up to be my own… The first time, so I would either propose businesses to him, or he would actually suggest why didn't I do something.

(10:35)
The first deal that we did, or the first business that we had or I had, and that he financed for me. So he lent me all the money to enable me to do this, and then I reap the profits, which I don't remember now because we varied over the deals that we did, that I would give him 50% or 25. It was random, and I can tell you what it is.

Todd Blanche (11:03):

Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah.

Ms. Maxwell (11:03):

Okay. So it was in Palm Beach actually, and it was in real estate, and they sold what was the grounds originally of an estate called the Phipps Estate. Then they converted the land that came with that estate into houses, and I did, I think two or maybe, I can't remember now, but certainly one and maybe two, possibly three. I don't think so. I think two that then were flipped, and there was a profit. So that would be an example of that. But I didn't have the money, so he lent me the funds to do that business transaction, and then I reaped the profits, and that's millions of dollars.

Todd Blanche (11:48):

So when the financial investigator, like the FBI, looks at accounts, they don't know kind of the conversations you're having. They just see the money. So in those cases, when that happened, when he financed that with you, would he send money to you? So does that explain some of the money? I guess-

Ms. Maxwell (12:12):

I think it does. I think, for instance, there were two gull-wing Mercedes that they did with Mercedes and Aston Martin. You can look up, I think if I'm right, that had the doors that would come up like this that were only very limited number that were made. So I knew that we could get those and flip them right within 24 hours, for example.

(12:37)
Also, here's another example or something that you guys wouldn't have known about is I became a banker. I got my Series 63, Series 67 banking license and became a broker, like a new… Then because I was day trading, everything I had I day traded was through an account. I think I was lucky more than smart, but I made quite a lot of money doing that.

Todd Blanche (13:09):

When was that?

Ms. Maxwell (13:12):

That's again, it's in the '90s again. I think, well, you can find it because it'll be my banking license, right? That'll be something that you can look up probably. So whatever that is, and I just don't remember when that is. I'm sorry.

Todd Blanche (13:26):

Okay. So-

Ms. Maxwell (13:30):

For an example, I was doing really, really, really well, and so he was like, "How do you do that? Why are you investing in," I don't know, "Apple when nobody liked Apple." This is before Apple or Microsoft. I didn't know Bill Gates, so this is not related to him, but my family-

Speaker 2 (13:49):

Don't charge with inside [inaudible 00:13:51].

Ms. Maxwell (13:51):

Please don't. No, I'm not trying to suggest that. Oh, goodness. Please. No. I had no-

Speaker 2 (13:57):

That was just a joke.

Ms. Maxwell (13:57):

Okay.

Speaker 2 (13:57):

It was a joke.

Ms. Maxwell (14:00):

Oh, yeah, no. All right. But going back to my family, my dad had given me an account when I was 12, and I had had always an interest in business and finance, not very sophisticatedly. I'm not suggesting that. So I liked to trade, and so I did, and I did well. So then I would tell him what I was doing. Now, whether he did or he didn't, he told me he matched me in some other accounts that he had because he did a lot of… My observation, to go back to what he did, I observed him personally and have recollection, personal recollection, of him trading money lots, tens of hundreds of millions of dollars.

Todd Blanche (14:52):

That he was trading for other people or that was his own money.

Ms. Maxwell (14:56):

Yes. I want also to clarify something for you or clarify or underline. Wexner was, in my opinion, his closest friend in this time period from when I met him in '91, right. All the way until… I don't know. I wasn't that friendly with… Well, I did travel with Mr. Wexner, but Epstein told me that Wexner didn't want to be seen too much with me because of my family problems. Whether that was-

Todd Blanche (15:36):

You mean the problems that your father's company had with embezzlement or allegations of-

Ms. Maxwell (15:42):

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. Now, actually today not contemporaneously, but today I don't believe that that's even true. I think it was used as a means to not have me travel with him to Ohio or whatever. It was just a way to park me. I believe that now because within the discovery there was a lot of, well, not a lot, but there was some indications that he would actively tell other people to lie to me or conceal things from me and that he never loved me, and I wasn't his type. That's in the discovery somewhere.

Todd Blanche (16:21):

Okay. So the government had evidence that even as late as 2007, he paid you a lot of money.

Ms. Maxwell (16:32):

What was that? What was the money?

Todd Blanche (16:36):

Like several millions of millions of dollars in 2007. 7.4 million, I think.

Ms. Maxwell (16:42):

What was that for? Was that the helicopter?

Todd Blanche (16:50):

That's my question. You-

Ms. Maxwell (16:50):

Sorry.

Todd Blanche (16:50):

I don't know. So in 2007-

Ms. Maxwell (16:50):

That's probably the helicopter.

Todd Blanche (16:51):

That was what?

Ms. Maxwell (16:51):

That could have been the helicopter, the Secourski. Those big chunks like that, I don't personally have any memory of receiving a check from him for 7 million. I just don't. So the answer to your question, to be precise-

Todd Blanche (17:06):

Would you remember if it went into your pocket?

Ms. Maxwell (17:14):

I would remember if it went. He never paid me for services that you just described, $7 million for any nefarious reason.

Todd Blanche (17:23):

Yeah, I think I understand what you've said about being on the payroll and him helping you with businesses and giving you a lot of life things along the way. You travel with him. You ate with him is, but there is these massive amounts of money, one-time payments that I-

Ms. Maxwell (17:45):

You'd have to trace that, right? So I don't believe that came into my account or I had any control. I have no memory of that. I have no-

Todd Blanche (17:53):

Well, but if there's records that show up coming into your account, it sounds like what you're saying is that you have no memory of that money being yours.

Ms. Maxwell (18:01):

No.

Todd Blanche (18:01):

That money is not somewhere.

Ms. Maxwell (18:05):

No, I wouldn't be like, "Oh, yipp;ee, let me go, I got $7 million. I'm going to go buy myself a yacht," or I don't know something else or move it to some other… No, I don't think. If you look, you'll have to check, but obviously I don't think you'll find that money moving to any account other mine or it shouldn't show. I don't believe anyway. As far as I recollect, wouldn't show me spending it. Does that make sense?

Todd Blanche (18:32):

Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I don't think there's any dispute by anybody, even your lawyers at trial that the money went in.

Ms. Maxwell (18:43):

$7 million in when? What year?

Todd Blanche (18:45):

Well, there's several years. In 2007.

Ms. Maxwell (18:47):

And?

Todd Blanche (18:47):

The 2002, there was 5 million that you were paid in 2002.

Ms. Maxwell (18:53):

Oh, well, I don't remember, but okay, so there would be another large sum, but it wouldn't have come from him later, but was nothing to do-

Todd Blanche (19:02):

The biggest one was in 1999. There's over 18 million, 18.3 million.

Ms. Maxwell (19:12):

I don't know what that is.

Todd Blanche (19:15):

But what you're saying it sounds like, and then if you don't know, we can move on, but we're talking about 18.3 million in '99, 5 million in three years later in 2002, 7.4 million in 2007, that money adds up to around $30 million. You were not paid that by Mr. Epstein, meaning that's not money you received for your benefit, even if it was put into your accounts?

Ms. Maxwell (19:45):

I don't believe any of that was my money. Now, just like I said, we did do these things with the cars.

Todd Blanche (19:51):

Yes, I understand that. I understand that.

Ms. Maxwell (19:53):

I don't don't know if any of that money, some of it, if it moves, some of that may have come from the car or a house that was sold that I had interest in with him. That's possible. But I don't think this money's mine.

Speaker 3 (20:02):

But also the record should reflect too, that there were times Ghislaine's name was used. For example, Air Ghislaine. Her name was in the name of the entity. It had nothing to do with her. If you pulled signatures, there's no evidence for that.

Todd Blanche (20:18):

What I'm trying to just make sure that I understand is that the idea that you were paid $30 million between '99 and 2007 by Mr. Epstein to reward you for recruiting young women, you're saying that is categorically completely false.

Ms. Maxwell (20:41):

That is categorically false. Correct.

Todd Blanche (20:49):

Okay. So we went through several individuals yesterday, and I want to go through just a couple of more names and ask if you know them, and if you do know them, how you know them. Do you know Elon Musk?

Ms. Maxwell (21:15):

I do.

Todd Blanche (21:16):

How did you meet Mr. Musk?

Ms. Maxwell (21:18):

I met him in… I don't remember the year, but it's going to be in 2010, '11, something like that, I think, if my memory serves. I was at an event for Sergey Brin, the co-founder of Google. It was for his birthday, and a bunch of us, I don't even remember how many we were, but not many of us, maybe. I don't know. If I say 40, I could be wrong if it was 30 or 50. I don't remember. I'm sorry. Went to another friend's island, somebody called Mr. Bigotse, in the Caribbean. Not with Epstein. He was not there to celebrate Sergey's birthday. We were there together for, I want to say, three or four days, something like that in my memory, and Mr. Musk was present for that.

Todd Blanche (22:34):

That was the first time you met him as far as you know?

Ms. Maxwell (22:37):

As far as I remember, yes.

Todd Blanche (22:40):

Did you know his brother, Mr. Musk's brother?

Ms. Maxwell (22:44):

I don't know if I've ever met him. I know that he has a brother, but I don't think I met him.

Todd Blanche (22:52):

Aside from that time around 2010 on the Island of the Caribbean for a couple of days, do you know Mr. Musk beyond that time?

Ms. Maxwell (23:04):

I was at the Oscars, and we met at the Oscars.

Todd Blanche (23:06):

What year was that? Earlier or later?

Ms. Maxwell (23:11):

It was post that event, I believe.

Todd Blanche (23:15):

Do you know whether Mr. Epstein knew Mr. Musk?

Ms. Maxwell (23:18):

I believe they did. The only reason I say that's not from my memory, but because I think I saw. My memory, is that in discovery they were communicating on email.

Todd Blanche (23:31):

So you have no personal knowledge of that. It's just what you've seen from the press or from discovery.

Ms. Maxwell (23:37):

I believe his brother as well, actually.

Todd Blanche (23:40):

Excuse me.

Ms. Maxwell (23:41):

Mr. Musk's brother as well. Like I said, my memory is not as good as I would like it to be, and I just want to say that.

Todd Blanche (23:55):

You mentioned, I think yesterday in passing, well, not in passing, but as part of another answer, Andrew Cuomo?

Ms. Maxwell (24:03):

Yes.

Todd Blanche (24:03):

Did you know Mr. Cuomo?

Ms. Maxwell (24:05):

Well, only because he was married to Kerry.

Todd Blanche (24:08):

Yes. Okay.

Ms. Maxwell (24:10):

I think I knew his brother as well. He has a brother, right? He's on TV. What's his name?

Speaker 3 (24:16):

Christopher Cuomo.

Ms. Maxwell (24:20):

Right. Chris. Yeah.

Todd Blanche (24:23):

You mean the former TV anchor or the TV anchor, Chris Cuomo?

Ms. Maxwell (24:25):

Yes.

Todd Blanche (24:25):

Okay.

Ms. Maxwell (24:26):

But I would say just socially, I'm not close friends or anything, but because I was friends with Kerry, and I met him a few times, and I certainly met his brother as well a few times.

Todd Blanche (24:40):

The same questions that I asked about Mr. Musk. Do you know whether Mr. Epstein knew Andrew Cuomo or Chris Cuomo or Ms. Kennedy, your friend?

Ms. Maxwell (24:53):

I don't think so.

Todd Blanche (24:57):

So don't recall any of those three individuals flying on Mr. Epstein's plane or visiting him in Palm Beach or at the island?

Ms. Maxwell (25:04):

No.

Todd Blanche (25:06):

I think you mentioned former Secretary of State, John Kerry yesterday, but if not, do you know Mr. Kerry or no?

Ms. Maxwell (25:13):

I have met him, but I don't know if Mr. Epstein ever met him. I met him at only… Well, really, I can't even probably characterize that as a meeting. But I was very, very involved in the Ocean at work through the… You asked me yesterday about TerraMar, and if I recall right, I met the secretary that way through the Ocean, but he wouldn't know who I am, I don't think.

Todd Blanche (25:41):

Well, do you know former senator, Ted Kennedy?

Ms. Maxwell (25:47):

Yes.

Todd Blanche (25:50):

Is that through your own life or through Mr. Epstein?

Ms. Maxwell (25:53):

My life.

Todd Blanche (25:54):

Do you know whether Mr. Epstein knew Senator Kennedy?

Ms. Maxwell (25:58):

I don't believe so.

Todd Blanche (26:00):

So for the folks we just talked about, so former Secretary of State, John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, you don't know whether Mr. Epstein knew them. So I take that to mean you have no recollection of them flying on his plane or visiting him.

Ms. Maxwell (26:14):

I don't know.

Todd Blanche (26:14):

Okay.

Ms. Maxwell (26:19):

But Bobby Kennedy knew him. Bobby, the health-

Todd Blanche (26:25):

Sorry, say that again about Bobby Kennedy.

Ms. Maxwell (26:26):

Bobby knew Mr. Epstein.

Todd Blanche (26:28):

How do you know that?

Ms. Maxwell (26:30):

Because we went on a trip together. We went to dinosaur bone hunting in the Dakotas.

Todd Blanche (26:41):

When was that approximately? I'm not looking for an exact date, but when was that?

Ms. Maxwell (26:48):

That was early. That was in the early… Well, let me back up. I knew Bobby's wife Mary pretty well actually and before he met her.

Todd Blanche (27:01):

Just to help us, I know we're talking about a wide span of time, but when are you talking about that you knew Mr. Kennedy's wife before they were married? So when are we talking about that?

Ms. Maxwell (27:22):

I forgot to get my head straight. In-

Todd Blanche (27:27):

Well, would this have been before you met Mr. Epstein or after?

Ms. Maxwell (27:29):

Yes.

Todd Blanche (27:29):

Okay.

Ms. Maxwell (27:30):

I met him before I met-

Todd Blanche (27:31):

So we're talking about the 1980s.

Ms. Maxwell (27:33):

Oh, yes. Yes. Thank you.

Todd Blanche (27:35):

Okay.

Ms. Maxwell (27:35):

The '80s.

Todd Blanche (27:36):

Okay, so we're talking about the 1980s, and then?

Ms. Maxwell (27:43):

I had a very, very long-standing boyfriend, and his brother was dating Mary at the time, and we were all good friends.

Todd Blanche (27:59):

Did Mr. Epstein meet Bobby Kennedy through you?

Ms. Maxwell (28:04):

I don't think so because Mr. Epstein… Surprisingly, everyone says everything happens to me. That's just not true. I mean, I think yesterday I explained that he had friends from London, and they were what? The people would call fancy. They were fancy people, but he had the same types of relationships before I met him in America.

(28:33)
So when I met him, he was already… Wexner and he had Henry, and I don't know if then he was in the Council of Foreign Relations, but he was friends with Ace, and he was well established. He didn't need me, and Eva was a major model. So he had all these modeling connections and friends in that business that long before I met him.

Todd Blanche (29:08):

So the trip that you went on with Mr. Epstein and Bobby Kennedy was that in the '90 and two thousands?

Ms. Maxwell (29:13):

I think it would've been in the… I want to say '93, '94.

Todd Blanche (29:14):

Okay. So a very long time ago.

Ms. Maxwell (29:26):

A very, very long time ago.

Todd Blanche (29:29):

A few years into the time that you knew Mr. Epstein?

Ms. Maxwell (29:36):

Yes. I mean, I don't want to hold myself to the dates because I really-

Todd Blanche (29:40):

No, no, I'm not holding to dates.

Ms. Maxwell (29:41):

Okay. Because I really don't.

Todd Blanche (29:41):

I think I've said that a lot, because I appreciate we're talking about the '80s and '90s and even the 2000s.

Ms. Maxwell (29:46):

I just want you to know that I don't have anything to review. So I haven't had any ability to the short of my legal material, obviously, which you can know I have. So I came with a box work, but short of that, I have nothing with which to refresh or very limited stuff, I should say. I don't want to say nothing, to refresh my mind.

Todd Blanche (30:06):

I understand that. Do you have any recollection of there being anything inappropriate with Mr. Kennedy and masseuses or young women on the trip you just talked about?

Ms. Maxwell (30:21):

I never saw anything inappropriate with Mr. Kennedy.

Todd Blanche (30:25):

Do you know whether he ever got a massage from one of the masseuses? Do you know either way?

Ms. Maxwell (30:30):

I do not.

Todd Blanche (30:31):

But not something you remember?

Ms. Maxwell (30:33):

I mean, absolutely not. I mean, yesterday, if I didn't make it clear, I will reiterate it. I never ever saw any man doing something inappropriate with a woman of any age. I never saw inappropriate. I'm not going to say hands, or that to me is not inappropriate. Now, if somebody's inappropriate and mine may be different, but we're not talking about anything that's resembles the accusations that we're discussed here. So that would be a flat note to any man.

Todd Blanche (31:16):

Did your or Mr. Epstein's relationship with Bobby Kennedy continue into the 2000s, as far as you know?

Ms. Maxwell (31:23):

I would say yes. Well, mine, yes. I don't-

Todd Blanche (31:30):

With you?

Ms. Maxwell (31:31):

With me for sure.

Todd Blanche (31:31):

Do you know whether Mr. Epstein and Bobby Kennedy continued to have relationships into the two thousands?

Ms. Maxwell (31:42):

I have no personal knowledge of that. I mean, because another thing is that everyone puts us together like monolith. He literally had a separate life from me. I literally had a separate life from him. Now did they say, well, of course they did. I'm not crazy, but he kept a lot to himself and he didn't like to share. He was not a sharer. Well, at least not with me.

Todd Blanche (32:04):

Mr. Epstein didn't share, you're saying?

Ms. Maxwell (32:05):

Not with me, no.

Todd Blanche (32:08):

Do you know somebody named Cheryl Mills?

Ms. Maxwell (32:11):

I do.

Todd Blanche (32:11):

Used to work in the White House as a lawyer?

Ms. Maxwell (32:13):

Yes. I do, yes.

Todd Blanche (32:13):

How do you know Ms. Mills?

Ms. Maxwell (32:14):

I met Ms. Mills through President Clinton.

Todd Blanche (32:18):

Do you remember generally the timeframe that you met her?

Ms. Maxwell (32:23):

I do actually. Hang on. I am sorry. I'm [inaudible 00:32:39] get my dates right.

Todd Blanche (32:41):

Approximately.

Ms. Maxwell (32:42):

Well, okay. I can't get my dates right, but it's something you probably can. It's going to be in the early 2000s.

Todd Blanche (32:48):

Okay.

Ms. Maxwell (32:54):

So I don't recall. I think I wanted to say 2002. I'm going to say to 2002 or 2003.

Todd Blanche (32:56):

After President Clinton left office?

Ms. Maxwell (32:59):

Oh, yes.

Todd Blanche (00:00):

Ms. Maxwell (32:59):

Definitely.

Todd Blanche (32:59):

What-

Todd Blanche (33:00):

And so, it was in the 2000s?

Ms. Maxwell (33:02):

Definitely.

Todd Blanche (33:03):

And how did you meet her? What were the circumstances under which you met Ms. Mills?

Ms. Maxwell (33:08):

I went on a trip with the president to South America.

Todd Blanche (33:12):

With which president?

Ms. Maxwell (33:13):

Oh, sorry. President Clinton.

Todd Blanche (33:17):

Yeah. Okay.

Ms. Maxwell (33:17):

Sorry.

Todd Blanche (33:17):

I just wanted make sure it was clear. Okay. So you went on a trip to where?

Ms. Maxwell (33:22):

Latin America.

Todd Blanche (33:25):

And so, Ms. Mills was on that trip?

Ms. Maxwell (33:27):

She was.

Todd Blanche (33:28):

And President Clinton was on that trip?

Ms. Maxwell (33:29):

He was.

Todd Blanche (33:30):

Who else was on that trip?

Ms. Maxwell (33:32):

Doug Band.

Todd Blanche (33:35):

Who worked with President Clinton?

Ms. Maxwell (33:37):

Yes.

Todd Blanche (33:38):

And was Mr. Epstein?

Ms. Maxwell (33:41):

No.

Todd Blanche (33:42):

And what was the purpose of that trip?

Ms. Maxwell (33:46):

Well, the president had been … I don't know. I mean, the president met with … I can't even remember all the, I don't know, presidents. And we were-

Todd Blanche (34:02):

Was this part of President Clinton's work after he left office with his foundation? Meaning, was it something for him or was it-

Ms. Maxwell (34:09):

I don't remember when the Clinton Global Initiative started. So, if you give me that date, I can tell you if it was pre or post, because without that I can't pin the reason.

Todd Blanche (34:21):

Do you remember what it was for or not?

Ms. Maxwell (34:23):

No, I don't recall.

Todd Blanche (34:25):

Okay. Yeah. Don't overthink or underthink the reason for my questions. I don't have any idea why you went on that trip. I don't know an answer that I'm keeping from me.

Ms. Maxwell (34:34):

No, I'm just trying to be as accurate as possible and give you the information that you seek.

Todd Blanche (34:37):

Do you remember why you were invited to go? Were you friends with somebody? What was your role going on that trip?

Ms. Maxwell (34:45):

I didn't have a role.

Todd Blanche (34:48):

So, do you remember who invited you to go?

Ms. Maxwell (34:59):

Probably Doug Band.

Todd Blanche (35:02):

And how did you know Doug?

Ms. Maxwell (35:06):

Because Doug … And again, back with Philip Levine.

Todd Blanche (35:12):

Got it. And do you know whether he had a relationship with Mr. Epstein?

Ms. Maxwell (35:15):

Who?

Todd Blanche (35:16):

Doug.

Ms. Maxwell (35:19):

I don't know. I mean, nothing. I don't believe there was any relationship other than I helped … Well, without me I don't think there would've been those flights because I was the one who asked Epstein to provide the plane for … Well, certainly I remember the one to Africa, of course, that big trip. And I thought it was an honor and a privilege to be part of something so amazing and to have an opportunity to spend time with a man that I found truly extraordinary. And please, I don't mean it in any other way other than that he's a former fantastic ex-president.

Todd Blanche (36:04):

So, I was asking around the question, but I'll just ask it. Were you basically asked to go because you were kind of responsible for the plane? Responsible is the wrong word.

Ms. Maxwell (36:15):

Not that-

Todd Blanche (36:16):

They were able to use you to make sure that they could … You helped him get Mr. Epstein's plane for the trip?

Ms. Maxwell (36:21):

No, I don't even know when I was on that. In fact, I think that trip, I'm not even sure that Epstein had met the president.

Todd Blanche (36:29):

Okay.

Ms. Maxwell (36:32):

But if I'm right, and I think I am, I think that trip happened when Epstein and Clinton had never even … Not that they'd never met because Epstein had gone to the White House, but they had not met … I'd never asked Epstein for the plane then because they'd never met and it would be weird. But they met because of me and the plane was because of me.

(36:50)
But that trip was the first, I think, the first trip I took with the ex-president, and I don't believe Epstein and he had met. And we're talking in a time period when I was trying to leave, not very successfully, obviously, but I was branching out on my own and being more independent of Mr. Epstein and I had all kinds of businesses that I was into. I was trying to start the first telehealth medicine with the Cleveland Clinic. I mean, I'm not going to bore you, because I don't think that's what you guys are interested in, but those were the sorts of things that I was looking for him to finance so that I could stop being a general manager of a hotel.

Todd Blanche (37:41):

So, did you take other trips with some or all of those individuals without Mr. Epstein in later years? You said that was the first time that you had been on something like that and it was an honor and you were spending time with former President Clinton and others. Over the years, did you do that more than once?

Ms. Maxwell (38:05):

Yes.

Todd Blanche (38:08):

Well, talk about those. Like, multiple times, too many to count, or there three or four times? How many times?

Ms. Maxwell (38:15):

A lot. A lot. I went on a lot of trips. Now, I don't recall all of them, not because I'm trying to be evasive or anything, but I just don't remember them all. And after a while, you know in the incredible job that you have, all of you, that when you're so high-pressured and you are spending so much time with extraordinary people, like you do with President Trump, it can blur. It just does. And there's few things that stand out because at the end it's all just extraordinary, there's cars and you've got sirens and president … It's like, whoa, okay.

Todd Blanche (38:57):

So I understand, but talk … So, understand you can't give specific numbers. Describe more about that part of your life and your relationship. I'm using relationship, you don't like relationship?

Ms. Maxwell (39:12):

I don't.

Todd Blanche (39:13):

Sorry. And your-

Ms. Maxwell (39:15):

My employer.

Todd Blanche (39:15):

Yes.

Ms. Maxwell (39:16):

Don't worry. That's [inaudible 00:39:18].

Todd Blanche (39:17):

Describe what you were doing with those individuals. So, when I say those individuals, I'm talking about former President Clinton, Doug, other folks that work with him.

Ms. Maxwell (39:36):

Ira Magaziner. All of them. Yes, there were loads of them. And through all of them, you know the team, I don't need to give you all the names, you have them at your fingertips and I can confirm, if you give me names, I'll say yes because they're not all going to pop into my head.

Todd Blanche (39:43):

Right.

Ms. Maxwell (39:44):

Okay. So, I started spending a lot of time … I don't want to characterize that. I started spend time with the former president and with Doug and his team. And I had no purpose really, other than I had … I obviously offered something, I don't know. Ideas of … I don't know.

(40:14)
Anyway, and he started to travel. I don't remember if the first trip was Africa or how it went. I think there was actually two trips, but I'm not sure. So, there was to Europe and then to Africa. I think maybe it was all one trip. And at some point Mr. Epstein said he didn't want to go on the trip and he was going somewhere else, and he just left. And I was like, "Well, okay." And so, I ended up doing the whole trip without Mr. Epstein or his plane.

Todd Blanche (40:57):

And when you were traveling with them, what were the purposes of the trips? Is this one-

Ms. Maxwell (41:04):

I think these were all … I think actually was the AIDS was one of the primary ones for his AIDS foundation when he was working to do that. And there were always a humanitarian side to the trips. And we went to Egypt and that was … Oh, yeah.

Todd Blanche (41:30):

So, it sounds like you're describing right now, one trip with lots of stops.

Ms. Maxwell (41:35):

It could be, but I have a feeling that I went on other trips, but I can't remember.

Todd Blanche (41:41):

When you went on those-

Ms. Maxwell (41:42):

Oh, I went to London. I went to London.

Todd Blanche (41:44):

To London, okay.

Ms. Maxwell (41:45):

I don't know if that's the same trip.

Todd Blanche (41:47):

When you went on these trips, were you always on Mr. Epstein's plane-

Ms. Maxwell (41:53):

No.

Todd Blanche (41:53):

… or, did you sometimes accompany them on a different plane?

Ms. Maxwell (41:56):

Correct, yes.

Todd Blanche (41:58):

How many were on Mr. Epstein's plane? Again, I'm not holding to exact, but…

Ms. Maxwell (42:03):

That was a full … That was packed, because there was a lot of Secret Service. It took all the Secret Service as well. So, it was whatever the detail is for Secret Service, it was a lot.

Todd Blanche (42:13):

And on how many occasions besides the trip you just described, were there other times when President Clinton and the folks he was with used Mr. Epstein's plane?

Ms. Maxwell (42:27):

I think there was twice, maybe, there was that … But it will reflect on the logs. There won't be anything that's not on the logs that you have already.

Todd Blanche (42:34):

Were you, by the way, responsible for the logs in any way? You've seen the logs and they're public and you had them in discovery. But over the years when you were working with or for Mr. Epstein, did you have access to the logs?

Ms. Maxwell (42:47):

No, never. The pilots, the logbook was their personal logbook. I never even saw them have it. I never saw them fill it in. And then there was a second set of logs, the flight manifests, and I never saw those either. I was never allowed, I suppose, because they didn't want me to see.

Todd Blanche (43:15):

So, do you know whether Mr. Epstein had a separate relationship with President Clinton different from what you just described? So, different than being with him with respect to his foundation or something like this?

Ms. Maxwell (43:30):

I would say no.

Todd Blanche (43:34):

When's the last time that you went on a trip or saw President Clinton?

Ms. Maxwell (43:39):

It was late 2000-and … I don't know, '16, '17, something. It was in Los Angeles.

Todd Blanche (44:04):

And what was the purpose of that meeting?

Ms. Maxwell (44:04):

He was hosting something or he was at an event and I was in LA and I had dinner with him.

Todd Blanche (44:17):

Did you ever meet Secretary Clinton, Hillary Clinton?

Ms. Maxwell (44:21):

Yes.

Todd Blanche (44:22):

When did you meet her?

Ms. Maxwell (44:34):

Again, please don't hold me to it, but I want to say that it was on a flight that came from the island, not from the island, from the Nantucket or Martha's Vineyard back to New York is what I think. I might be wrong.

Todd Blanche (44:52):

Okay. So, an East Coast island like Nantucket or something like this?

Ms. Maxwell (44:57):

Yes. Yes. The ex- president never came to the island.

Todd Blanche (45:02):

And is that the only time that you met Hillary Clinton?

Ms. Maxwell (45:06):

No, I went to the house in Chappaqua a few times.

Todd Blanche (45:10):

And why did you go to the house?

Ms. Maxwell (45:12):

I was invited.

Todd Blanche (45:14):

Just to see President Clinton, or Hillary Clinton, or both, or?

Ms. Maxwell (45:20):

Yeah, I mean, as a friend. I don't remember any reason. Either was somehow I communicated that was in coming, driving back past Chappaqua, if they were home I'd stop in. I know it sounds a little flippant, but it could have been even something as-

Todd Blanche (45:39):

And do you know whether Mr. Epstein knew or had any sort of visit dealings or associated with Hillary Clinton?

Ms. Maxwell (45:48):

I would say no.

Todd Blanche (45:50):

Did you ever see them together?

Ms. Maxwell (45:51):

No.

Todd Blanche (45:55):

Do you know whether Mr. Epstein ever did any business transactions with the Clintons?

Ms. Maxwell (46:01):

Well, I don't know the answer to that strictly because I was part of the beginning process of the Clinton Global Initiative, and that was something that I helped with. And that was me and Epstein may have helped me help them. And in that context, he may well have involved himself, but only in the context of something that I was trying to do.

Todd Blanche (46:39):

So, when you say involved himself, meaning, give money to the Clinton Global Initiative or something like this?

Ms. Maxwell (46:47):

Well, so there's that. I think he did do that, and that, I believe, the money that he may have given could have been independent of me. But it's just easier if I just tell you how it happened rather than … Because otherwise it sounds all odd and funky. I went to Davos with the former president and I … Have you been to Davos?

Todd Blanche (47:17):

In what?

Ms. Maxwell (47:17):

Have you been to Davos?

Todd Blanche (47:17):

I have not.

Ms. Maxwell (47:18):

Okay. Well, you know what it is, right? Okay. And I thought that the former president should have his own Davos because it would be … And it turned out that they had been thinking about it anyway. And so, we were talking about it and it's a very heavy lift to get something like that to go.

(47:44)
And I was friendly with one of the people who had … I don't know if he was at the beginning of Davos, but he was running Davos. I don't know how to describe his actual role at Davos. And I had conversations with him about what did he think? Just because I was having dinner with him about if Clinton could get something like that to go, what was his thoughts? And he was very, very enthusiastic. I mean, he was like, "That's just an incredible idea." So, I put them together.

Todd Blanche (48:16):

What's that person's name? Do you remember?

Ms. Maxwell (48:17):

I knew you were going to ask me.

Todd Blanche (48:17):

Okay.

Ms. Maxwell (48:20):

I can-

Todd Blanche (48:24):

I didn't know if you remembered his name?

Ms. Maxwell (48:26):

I do know him. I do, but I just-

Todd Blanche (48:27):

Can't remember his name?

Ms. Maxwell (48:28):

It will come to me. It may come to me tomorrow, but eventually these things surface. Like, in the middle of the night I was scribbling names that I couldn't remember from yesterday.

Todd Blanche (48:37):

Okay.

Ms. Maxwell (48:38):

But his name will come to me, and if not, we can find it.

Todd Blanche (48:44):

Just still staying on your relationship with … Sorry, your association with the Clintons. You were part of the ramp-up or the start-up of the Clinton Global Initiative and helping them and supporting that effort?

Ms. Maxwell (49:00):

I was. I would say very central to that, yes.

Todd Blanche (49:05):

And Mr. Epstein, was he part of the work around that or just in support of you?

Ms. Maxwell (49:18):

He supported me to help them, but then I think he may have tried to use that to insert himself in some way. That would not have surprised me at all. And I know that he was annoying in terms that I could catch him on the phone and he wouldn't always agree with what I wanted to do. And I was like, "It's not your idea. I don't really care what you think." But that didn't go over so well.

Todd Blanche (49:43):

And-

Ms. Maxwell (49:44):

I just want to say it wasn't my idea for his CGI.

Todd Blanche (49:47):

It wasn't … say it again.

Ms. Maxwell (49:48):

It's not my idea. They had had that idea before. I just helped bring key personnel.

Todd Blanche (49:53):

You're saying the idea of President Clinton kind of having his own Davos, like-

Ms. Maxwell (49:57):

I'm not owning. I didn't … That's not-

Todd Blanche (49:59):

Understood.

Ms. Maxwell (50:01):

I'm not trying to elevate myself in any form of importance here.

Todd Blanche (50:03):

No, I understand.

Ms. Maxwell (50:03):

Okay.

Todd Blanche (50:06):

Did you go to Davos with President Clinton more than once or just once?

Ms. Maxwell (50:11):

I can't remember. Once, for sure. And I think maybe twice, but I don't remember.

Todd Blanche (50:18):

I think you said you are not aware of President Clinton ever going to the island?

Ms. Maxwell (50:27):

He never went. Absolutely never went. And I can be sure of that because there's no way he would've gone … Well, I don't believe there's any way that he would've gone to the island had I not been there, because I don't believe he had an independent friendship, if you will, with Epstein. Did they speak? Yes, but that's very different from going to spend time on an island. And plus, the story as told is so patently absurd that I flew him in the helicopter. I am a helicopter pilot, that is true. But it's the notion of me flying an ex-president on a machine, it terrified me. I would never even take that responsibility. Can you imagine? Yeah. No, I'm not … No.

Todd Blanche (51:09):

Did you ever go with President Clinton to any of Mr. Epstein's properties, so New Mexico, Palm Beach or in New York?

Ms. Maxwell (51:20):

I have no memory of him in any of those places.

Todd Blanche (51:26):

When you were in London with President Clinton, did you ever go to your flat with him?

Ms. Maxwell (51:34):

I don't think he did. I don't think so, because he wouldn't even be able to carry all his Secret Service with him. I don't think so, no.

Todd Blanche (51:51):

Okay. We talked a little about the Duchess of York, Sarah Ferguson yesterday. When's the last time you saw her? Were you with her or hanging out with her, socializing with her in the '90s, 2000s, both?

Ms. Maxwell (52:27):

I don't know if she liked me very much. I think my friendship with her ex-husband … Sometimes she really did like me and sometimes she didn't. So, maybe a frenemy. I don't know. It was always friendly when we were together, but I think that there was some latent hostility. And I-

Todd Blanche (52:52):

Is that something you've heard since everything came out or along the way you felt that way?

Ms. Maxwell (52:56):

No, that's how I felt. That is a characterization of myself. That's how I felt about her. I was always friendly with her. I mean, I've seen her many, many times. And she's also super, super close with other people we were very good friends with in England. I think that she liked Mr. Epstein.

Todd Blanche (53:24):

Why do you think that?

Ms. Maxwell (53:26):

My female intuition.

Todd Blanche (53:28):

Okay.

Speaker 5 (53:30):

Discovery, there's a letter.

Ms. Maxwell (53:32):

Oh.

Speaker 5 (53:32):

A letter.

Ms. Maxwell (53:35):

Oh, I don't remember it. Well-

Todd Blanche (53:35):

It's okay.

Ms. Maxwell (53:37):

Okay. It's possible that there's things … Well, it's not possible, I know that there is discovery, but I don't recall, but I think she had a thing for him.

Todd Blanche (53:51):

There's some actors or some folks from Hollywood that I want to ask you about just to understand whether you knew them or Mr. Epstein knew them. Chris Tucker?

Ms. Maxwell (54:02):

Yes.

Todd Blanche (54:02):

How did you know Mr. Tucker?

Ms. Maxwell (54:04):

I think only from that flight to Africa, but I do think that they met-

Todd Blanche (54:09):

You say that flight to Africa, the one we were just talking about with President Clinton?

Ms. Maxwell (54:11):

Yes. Yes. Sorry. Sorry.

Todd Blanche (54:12):

Okay. Sorry, go ahead. Yep.

Ms. Maxwell (54:15):

But I also think that they kept a little bit in touch and I think we met, or I have a memory of him maybe in LA. I don't know. I think they sort of loosely stayed in touch. I don't know. I don't know how to say that.

Todd Blanche (54:31):

Do you know Mr. Tucker besides that flight?

Ms. Maxwell (54:34):

No.

Todd Blanche (54:38):

When you say you think that they kept in touch, you mean you think that Mr. Epstein and Mr. Tucker-

Ms. Maxwell (54:44):

They may have. I didn't, but he might have. I'm not sure.

Todd Blanche (54:49):

Kevin Spacey?

Ms. Maxwell (54:50):

I know him also from that same flight.

Todd Blanche (54:55):

Aside from that flight, do you know him from any other thing?

Ms. Maxwell (54:58):

No.

Todd Blanche (54:59):

Naomi Campbell?

Ms. Maxwell (55:00):

Yes, I do know Naomi and I knew her before I met Mr. Epstein and former President Clinton.

Todd Blanche (55:11):

Do you know whether Mr. Epstein separately knew Ms. Campbell?

Ms. Maxwell (55:21):

I think he probably met her through me, that I imagine.

Todd Blanche (55:22):

And so, for those three, Mr. Tucker, Mr. Spacey, and Ms. Campbell, did they ever travel to any of Mr. Epstein's properties, the island or New Mexico?

Ms. Maxwell (55:36):

Not Mr. Tucker … Well, not to my knowledge, Mr. Tucker or Mr. Spacey. Naomi Campbell may have.

Todd Blanche (55:45):

To where?

Ms. Maxwell (55:48):

Well, I believe she visited him in Palm Beach and I believe she may have gone to the island and she may have gone to see his house in New York. Whether she went to New Mexico or Paris as well, maybe. They were friends or friendly.

Todd Blanche (56:05):

What you just said, she may have. Were you on those trips?

Ms. Maxwell (56:11):

I don't have any independent memory of that, so I'm not sure. I don't think so.

Todd Blanche (56:18):

Do you know-

Ms. Maxwell (56:19):

Her relationship, her friendship … You're making me use your word. Her friendship, whatever, with Mr. Epstein was independent of me.

Todd Blanche (56:31):

Okay, but you also had a separate friendship with her before you met Mr. Epstein?

Ms. Maxwell (56:36):

I did. I did.

Todd Blanche (56:36):

Okay. Larry Summers, the former secretary of the Treasury. Did you know that person?

Ms. Maxwell (56:42):

I did, yes.

Todd Blanche (56:44):

How?

Ms. Maxwell (56:45):

I met Mr. Summers through Mr. Epstein.

Todd Blanche (56:49):

And the same question, just generally time period, are you talking about early 2000s, '90s, after that?

Ms. Maxwell (56:56):

I honestly really don't know. I did want to say something. I forgot that there was … Yesterday you asked me about Mr. Epstein's properties. He had a rental in Boston as well, but not for very long, but it was another place that I had to put together. And I only went with him once and he would go there independently of me. I would not go with him.

Todd Blanche (57:19):

Was that in the '90s?

Ms. Maxwell (57:22):

I think it was, yes.

Todd Blanche (57:24):

Mr. Summers, do you know what his relationship was with Mr. Epstein, business, personal, both? Or, don't you know?

Ms. Maxwell (57:35):

I think he spoke to Mr. Epstein about business a lot, but I think they were friends and friendly.

Todd Blanche (57:42):

Do you know whether Mr. Summers ever traveled on Mr. Epstein's planes to any of the properties that Mr. Epstein owned?

Ms. Maxwell (57:48):

He may have, but I don't think, if he did, I was on any of the flights. I mean, there's other issues. I mean, I traveled so, so much that the flights just blur.

Todd Blanche (57:59):

Understand. George Soros?

Ms. Maxwell (58:04):

I don't think he knew him. I did, but I don't think he did. I don't think-

Todd Blanche (58:07):

How did you know Mr. Soros?

Ms. Maxwell (58:09):

I was friends with his kids.

Todd Blanche (58:11):

Which kids?

Ms. Maxwell (58:14):

John, and I can't think of his other child. I can't think. I've lost his name.

Speaker 5 (58:27):

Alexander?

Ms. Maxwell (58:27):

Who?

Speaker 5 (58:27):

Alexander? No.

Ms. Maxwell (58:30):

I met him but just socially and he may not remember even having met me. I was excited to meet him.

Todd Blanche (58:37):

When are you thinking, when would you have met him?

Ms. Maxwell (58:41):

If I met him, I think it was either at an event or at his kids' … It wouldn't have been at his house. An event, I think. I think, actually, no, in the Hamptons I met him. He was staying at somebody's house if my memory serves.

Todd Blanche (59:00):

And what was your relationship? How did you know his kids?

Ms. Maxwell (59:00):

I was out and about in New York a lot.

Todd Blanche (59:02):

So, just socially?

Ms. Maxwell (59:05):

Just socially, yes. Yeah, just socially, I think.

Todd Blanche (59:11):

Do you know whether Mr. Soros or his kids ever traveled on Mr. Epstein's planes?

Ms. Maxwell (59:15):

I don't think so.

Todd Blanche (59:17):

And ever visit either the island or New Mexico or Paris?

Ms. Maxwell (59:21):

No, I don't think so.

Todd Blanche (59:25):

No? Okay. So, we tried to identify names that have come up either publicly or in other lawsuits. Are there any names that come to mind that we haven't … We've talked about a lot of names. Are there some folks that you think we've forgotten to ask you about?

Ms. Maxwell (59:48):

Well, you asked me about names and I have some names, and I just want to give you some context for the names as well.

Todd Blanche (59:53):

Sure.

Ms. Maxwell (59:55):

So, we talked about Elizabeth Johnson yesterday. She had a boyfriend and he was Frederic Fekkai, the hairdresser. And he and Epstein were friendly, very friendly.

Todd Blanche (01:00:08):

And then what time period are you talking about?

Ms. Maxwell (01:00:13):

Well-

Todd Blanche (01:00:17):

Like '90s or 2000s, or both?

Ms. Maxwell (01:00:20):

I think the 2000s actually for that. You can date that because I think he probably knew Frederic before he dated Elizabeth.

Todd Blanche (01:00:32):

And when you say they were very friendly, did they travel together?

Ms. Maxwell (01:00:37):

I don't know if they traveled together, but I mean, Epstein didn't go out very much, or I mean he did go out, but not … And sometimes if he did, I think he would go out and maybe see Frederic.

(01:00:49)
And then there was … I mean he had a bunch of guys that I would know that he would see or meet. But I guess, [inaudible 01:01:02] he had any friends, I don't know, but…

Todd Blanche (01:01:05):

Okay. What other names?

Ms. Maxwell (01:01:06):

Okay. So, Henry Jarecki, who had an island near his. Henry was a financier. He was the guy who cornered the silver market back in the day.

Todd Blanche (01:01:18):

He had an island in the Caribbean near Mr. Epstein's?

Ms. Maxwell (01:01:21):

I the British Virgin Islands.

Todd Blanche (01:01:21):

Okay.

Ms. Maxwell (01:01:22):

And there was Branson's island there. Now, I know that there's an allegation that they met … I think I remember that I went to Richard Branson's island with Mr. Epstein and maybe he went another time, but I wouldn't characterize Richard Branson and him as friends. But he did go and I think I went with him.

Todd Blanche (01:01:46):

Do you know whether Mr Branson ever came to Mr. Epstein's island?

Ms. Maxwell (01:01:49):

If he did, I was not there.

Todd Blanche (01:01:50):

Okay. Okay.

Ms. Maxwell (01:01:53):

But it's possible.

Todd Blanche (01:01:54):

Understood.

Ms. Maxwell (01:01:54):

I wanted to-

Todd Blanche (01:01:55):

Who else?

Ms. Maxwell (01:02:00):

Marvin Minsky. He had a group of scientists that he was very, very friendly with all centered around Harvard. So, I remember him, Martin Nowak, who's a mathematician. Stephen Jay Gould. I don't know if Stephen Jay Gould came through the Harvard angle, but I know that there was … He would … Excuse me. Epstein would have dinners at the house that I was tasked to organize, and the scientists were a very major component of that.

(01:02:35)
They weren't social dinners as much as they were scientific. He would discuss … I don't know what he would discuss. But if you were in the area of brain cognition, he would invite them to the house. And they would come, all of them. Any name you can name me, they would be there.

Todd Blanche (01:02:58):

So, let's talk about those associations or relationships he have with the mathematicians and with Harvard, and I think with MIT to some extent.

Ms. Maxwell (01:03:09):

For sure, MIT too. Yeah.

Todd Blanche (01:03:13):

From what you observed, what's the reason behind him developing those ties with Harvard, with MIT, and with certain professors and others associated with those institutions?

Ms. Maxwell (01:03:29):

He really was profoundly interested in that area of science and then the brain. And I mean, if you were Stephen Jay Gould or the major scientist on happiness, I mean, it came, I believe, from a genuine area of interest, not from anything…

Todd Blanche (01:03:50):

And how did he become friends with them? How was he able to spend time with them? Meaning, did he donate to the university and then it was mandatory fun for them? Or, did he have relations with them where he would-

Ms. Maxwell (01:04:10):

I don't know if-

Todd Blanche (01:04:11):

… host them or what?

Ms. Maxwell (01:04:12):

… the chicken or the egg came first. But when I met him first and he was already doing a lot of this stuff, this is not … I've read, so this is why I'm saying this, I was not responsible for this area of … I mean, I certainly … Sorry, just to balance a second before it slips my mind and I leave something out.

(01:04:35)
There was an institute in New Mexico called … Anyone? The Institute of … It's very famous. We're not talking the Alamos. Anyway, all right. There's a very famous institute in New Mexico, you can look it up, it'll come to you at the minute you put it in your computer. And there had some of the biggest brains ever. That relationship came through me. So, that's me. And that is because my father was one of the major scientific … My family fortune, when I had one, came from scientific publishing. And it started from the thing that you were asking me yesterday, my father was in the Second World War, I told you, and he won the military cross. And then he actually was part of intelligence back in the war. And his job was to interrogate German scientists and prisoners of war.

(01:05:41)
And then that parlayed into a business with Springer Verlag and then into Pergamon Press, which was the scientific journals business. And he had an interest, he believed that it's knowledge is what would prevent war. And the biggest scientific discoveries,

Ms. Maxwell (01:06:00):

… well, not all of them, but many of them are coming from the Eastern Block and that's how we have the relationship with Santa Fe Institute and Murray Gell-Mann, specifically. And I introduced Epstein to Murray Gell-Mann. Sorry, to go off on a tangent.

Todd Blanche (01:06:15):

This is at the Santa Fe Institute?

Ms. Maxwell (01:06:16):

Yes, thank you. And Murray Gell-Mann was there, and Murray Gell-Mann and Epstein got along very, very well. And he was the man of the [inaudible 01:06:25]. Sorry.

Todd Blanche (01:06:26):

So do you know whether, so while you, when meet Mr. Epstein in the early '90s continuing on, so not what he had done before, why do you think, from what you saw or what you heard, he had the relationship or wanted to have the relationships that he had with Harvard and with MIT?

Ms. Maxwell (01:06:50):

So I think that that may have come with Wexner. I'm not sure, but that's something that I think that Wexner maybe had a relationship with Harvard and that he used that relationship to, I believe, he funded a lot. And if he didn't, that his clients of which Wexner obviously was one, would fund. And he would arrange the fund or organize the fund or I don't know.

Todd Blanche (01:07:21):

We'll take a break in a minute, but just to set us up for what we're going to talk about next. We talked yesterday morning about Mr. Epstein's kind of business and how he had money. Did he seem to live beyond his means as far as what he was making? So did you ever get the sense while you were with him that it was suspicious or curious how he was able to have the funds to buy two planes, an island, and New Mexico, the ranch, almost unlimited funds?

Ms. Maxwell (01:08:03):

You said it perfectly. I thought it was astonishing, but I didn't have any reason to believe that it came from anything nefarious. I saw him work. I never saw him really do anything, other than be on the phone, there's that, and he had a lot of meetings, but he had a lot of accounts and he dealt with pretty much every financier that you could care to mention. And if I could have access to the names, I'd be able to tell you which ones. I just don't remember them all. But in every bank, Goldman, Lehman, all of them, to my mind anyway. And most of the major businessmen at that time, he was in the Council of Foreign Relations, so you had access. That's an extraordinary list of people. It just is.

(01:08:59)
And then you asked me about his, but I… so I thought about it last night, how to try and explain what it was and I think the best thing is to focus only on Wexner's business. So I was present for some of their meetings in some of their business, and I listened. And so, things that I personally recollect, and I know I heard was that he would, when I told you yesterday, I think, he would, no detail was too small, so he would do the contracts with the staff, I think, and I saw that myself. And he also organized all the trusts for all the children. So if Wexner had kids, if he did, he did have children. So every time there was a child, he would create a trust for that child. And these were complex financial structures that would contain stocks of the various businesses. He restructured, when I was there, Wexner's business in its entirety, as I recollect.

(01:10:02)
And then not only that, but there were business interests. So Wexner owned or built or designed or don't quite know how to characterize it, but New Albany, which is a center outside of Columbus, Ohio specifically. And he built, I remember this conversation, he built himself a very large house, truly enormous. It's one of the biggest private homes I've ever been to. And he built all the houses around him and I'm like, "This is so random, why would you do that?" And he said to me, "Well, because I want to make sure that the people around me, my friends, I want my friends around me and my neighbors." And I was like, "Well, whatever. Okay."

(01:10:43)
I've been around enormous wealth my whole life, and I've, at some point, I just say, "Okay, whatever. I get it, and I don't." And so, that's what he did. But Epstein ran New Albany, which included a country club and a golf club. And I mean, gosh, your boss is one of the all time great businessmen in this area. You know what that is. And he certainly does. So there'd be that. And there was a business business that Epstein, well, he told me he owned it, but of course I can't say that for sure, because I don't know, but it's a sports thing. Riddell, is that a business? Riddell's? I thought about it last night. It's red and had hats, helmets. Riddell's?

Speaker 6 (01:11:27):

Riddell.

Ms. Maxwell (01:11:29):

Riddell. Yeah, Riddell's. Now, how he owned that? Well, he told me he owned it. But how he owned that, but that was before I think I came in and he had it, or he said he did.

Todd Blanche (01:11:39):

Got it.

Ms. Maxwell (01:11:40):

And he had other businesses. He had, I know this notion that he did nothing and he just was a grifter and whatnot. I'm not going to say that's not true, but it's not what I saw and it's not what I believe is true. Not because it couldn't have been that he didn't grift or whatever the word is off people. But I saw what I thought looked like real work.

Todd Blanche (01:12:06):

Why don't we take a break?

Mr. Markus (01:12:07):

Yeah. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:12:10):

All right. The time is now 10:35 and we'll take a break. We are resuming from break and the time is 10:49 on Friday, July 25th.

Todd Blanche (01:12:25):

All right. So we've talked around this issue but talked about it a little bit. I want to spend the next hour or so, or however long it takes. I want to talk, focus exclusively on Epstein and his criminal conduct with respect to women. You said yesterday a couple of times that you now recognize or think that there was things that he did that you didn't know about and that he kept from you or that you didn't see? What did you see? So you said yesterday, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but at some point he was getting massages seven days a week, sometimes multiple massages a day. Women have said that were there, that say they were there giving him massages, said that those included some sort of sexual conduct, however you define that in the broadest sense, not just a traditional massage regularly.

(01:13:50)
So what did you see and hear at the time? And then, I think, aside from what you saw and heard at the time, now that you've been through what you've been through and heard people say what they've said and read what they read, where does that leave you in your mind with what happened?

Ms. Maxwell (01:14:13):

So I saw Epstein with women. What I mean by that is he would have women around him or women on the plane or women in his house, or that's how I'm explaining that. Those women were very interested. My characterization of the interrelationships between all women that I saw with him and him was characterized by, excuse me, their interest in him as I would see it. And by that, I mean, I never saw anybody who didn't want to be with him and be with him maybe socially or whatever. I never saw anybody not under any form of duress in any type of situation where they were, as I would characterize it, looking uncomfortable or in any way distressed.

(01:15:29)
In the entire time I was with him or traveled with him, I never saw that. So anytime I saw anybody with him, they were happy to be with him. He would ask people all the time, whoever you were, to massage his feet. He'd be sitting there and he'd have somebody massage his feet or squeeze his shoulders or I saw that a lot. It was an ubiquitous interaction, if you will. So I did see that. I saw physicality, but not anything that was, I don't know how to characterize it, anything that looked aggressive, I suppose, to define that. So I never saw an aggressive move. I never saw anything that was-

Todd Blanche (01:16:24):

Well, non-consensual.

Ms. Maxwell (01:16:26):

Thank you. I never saw anything that was non-consensual. I never saw anything that looked like they didn't like the hug or I never saw what I would characterize as anything that was unconsensual.

Todd Blanche (01:16:43):

Did you see him either receiving or participating in sexual conduct during massages? Understanding you never saw something non-consensual. Did you see him engaged in sexual conduct during massages?

Ms. Maxwell (01:17:02):

Well, you could define sexual conduct as in, I did see women who could have been less than normally clad for massage, but especially on the island where they would be in a bikini or possibly even topless. Yeah, I did see that. So you would-

Todd Blanche (01:17:20):

So yes, I agree, that's one area. So women who were either not clothed or topless with just the bottom on. But beyond that, did you see as part of that him touching them? And again, I'm not talking about consent or not consent or age or I'm saying there's multiple, multiple, dozens and dozens of women who have said that they engaged in sexual contact. And I agree, there's a broad range of how that can be defined, but defining it in the broadest of terms.

Ms. Maxwell (01:18:01):

So him being physical with women? I did see that, but nothing that was not consensual. And to address the issue of the large number of women who today say that he was non-consensual coercive with them, I am not sure. In my mind, I have to characterize the two distinct areas. There's one where is the women who are not of age, therefore anything with them is immediately unconsensual.

Todd Blanche (01:18:36):

Correct.

Ms. Maxwell (01:18:36):

So let's start, I don't want to define anyone who's underage versus anybody who's over age, because I do think that there's a very significant differential between the two.

Todd Blanche (01:18:46):

So does the law.

Ms. Maxwell (01:18:51):

Yes. I don't mean that. I'm not trying to be smart.

Todd Blanche (01:18:52):

No, no, I agree with you. Yes, I agree with you.

Ms. Maxwell (01:18:54):

So I want to deal with the thing, which is really why we're here. I mean, not that I'm not going to deal with the other, but I just want to make a distinction with underage situation because there's nothing about that that's right. I never saw anything with anybody who was certainly to be categorical from my trial. Let's deal with that because that's something that I can say in, I never saw that with them at all. And I would say that as described anyway in my trial did not happen as described. I'm not saying that Mr. Epstein did not do those things. I'm not casting those, I'm not casting those. I don't feel comfortable saying that today given what I now know to be true. So I'm not here to defend him, but what I can say is that I did not participate in that activity.

Todd Blanche (01:19:50):

So let's divide this into two areas. Maybe there's more, but we'll start with two areas. One is there was testimony, and there's certainly been depositions and public statements that some of these young women had conversations with you about their age. So for example, conversations about the fact that they were in high school or conversations about the fact that they wanted to go to college one day, which would necessarily mean, well, not necessarily, but would be more likely to mean that they were in high school when they talked to you about that. And so, were there women that you knew were underage? And I say that because that's different than whether they were sexually abused in any way by Mr. Epstein, just merely their age going to give him a massage.

Ms. Maxwell (01:20:45):

No, I never knew that and I can categorically state that had any child said to me that they were 14, 15, 16, maybe not 17, because 17 in England, I mean, if someone had said they were 17, I've read so much that that did happen. I mean, I would never have permitted such a thing. I'd even know what I would've done.

Todd Blanche (01:21:12):

So some of the, I think even someone who testified at trial but certainly publicly talked about was as young as 14 when she was introduced to Mr. Epstein. In your mind today, you reject that that happened, that you saw that, meaning you don't recall any obviously under 18 woman coming to give him a massage?

Ms. Maxwell (01:21:43):

Well, I believe you're talking about Jane, and I'm very happy to address that. I actually don't think that the testimony is correct. I don't believe-

Todd Blanche (01:21:52):

Look, I don't-

Ms. Maxwell (01:21:53):

No, no, no. I just wanted to tell you how-

Todd Blanche (01:21:55):

Yeah, I don't want to get into he said, she said.

Ms. Maxwell (01:21:57):

No, no, no. Absolutely not. I don't want to go there either. I'm not going to do that. But I believe that what took place with a lot of these people is that there was a slide. So there was a zone, and he did meet her and I did meet her and I knew that she was a young child and I knew that she was not an adult, but I don't believe he met her until she was 16. So I'm not doing a he said, she said, I'm not doing that because nobody will. That's not what we're here for. But he didn't meet her until she was 16. And the entire testimony of the 14, 15, and 16-year-old is, therefore, not accurate. Did I meet her when she was 16 with her mother? I absolutely did. And did I know that she was young? I absolutely did. But everything that took place that was alleged at trial at the 14 and 15 and 16 is not accurate.

Todd Blanche (01:23:01):

There's testimony or there's, and again, I'm using testimony in the broadest sense. Some of this is just public statements or something that's come out in civil lawsuits about you and Mr. Epstein giving like an 18… You're turning 18 birthday card to somebody, which again, if true would, by definition mean you knew that she was under 18. Do you recall doing that?

Ms. Maxwell (01:23:26):

I do not. I mean, no memory of that at all. And I believe that would be the person that called herself Kate has now announced herself in her own podcast for who she really is. Her name is (beep). So I did not meet (beep) until actually, she was either 20 or 21. So it would be very hard for me to have given her an 18 birthday card. And the testimony, there's also that slid back.

Todd Blanche (01:23:58):

Do you accept that at some point, and we talked about this yesterday, about how Mr. Epstein changed, but at some point, Mr. Epstein definitely preferred younger women.

Ms. Maxwell (01:24:11):

I accept.

Todd Blanche (01:24:12):

And I think you said yesterday, but say it again since we're talking about it. Is that something that you, in your mind, one of the areas where he changed from when you first met him until later?

Ms. Maxwell (01:24:23):

I just also want to be clear, I never understood that change to encompass children. I did see from when I met him, he was involved or involved or friends with or whatever, however you want to characterize it, with women who were in their 20s. And then, the slide to 18 or younger looking women. But I never considered that this would encompass criminal behavior. It never-

Todd Blanche (01:24:59):

And so, when you read, I guess two different times. One was during the Florida investigation when there were eventually public statements from some of these now women who testified about what they did with Mr. Epstein when they were under 18. At that point, did you realize or did you think to yourself, this happened or this could have happened, I missed it, or were you at that point still in the mindset that they were either not telling the truth or were not remembering what happened the way that, accurately?

Ms. Maxwell (01:25:43):

That's a very fair question. So I think that my view of this at that time, to call it as contemporaneously as it did, because I don't think that stuff came out in public. I mean, I may have read things, but I don't, my first real-

Todd Blanche (01:26:02):

Yeah, that's fair.

Ms. Maxwell (01:26:02):

… memory of that is at the trial. But my viewpoint, if you will, was set from the minute that (beep) lied in her civil deposition. And I could never recover from that because-

Todd Blanche (01:26:19):

Which lie, what are you referring to?

Ms. Maxwell (01:26:23):

Her entire characterization. I don't remember how she came and whether I did, but I'm talking about the first time she came to Epstein's house, which I knew to be false. So from that first lie of that description, I could never recover from that.

Todd Blanche (01:26:42):

I understand.

Ms. Maxwell (01:26:47):

And that tainted, sorry, just so that we clear it, tainted, then the testimony of everybody else that I saw that came post that, because I had my own personal experience, which I knew to be false.

Todd Blanche (01:27:01):

And the reason why I think, and I said to Mr. Markus this morning that we were going to talk about this because when I think about you and the public's perception of Mr. Epstein, the public is left with the view that nobody in the world knows what really happened except for you. Now, you've explained the last day and a half how some of that's just a misperception because you didn't have a key to his house, you weren't around as much as maybe everybody claims you were okay. But there still is this perception out there that, oh my gosh, if we could talk to Ms. Maxwell, we would know how horrible Mr. Epstein was or how misperceived he was, whatever the truth is about Mr. Epstein. And the challenge in my mind, just to be, I told you, I would tell you when I had issues, and the challenge in my mind is that so many women have said that Mr. Epstein sexually assaulted them, whether juveniles or adults, that I don't find it… That's persuasive that that happened.

(01:28:22)
And so, if that's persuasive then, and I think it's without beyond contestation that he preferred younger women. And it's also beyond, I think at this point, there were certainly circumstances that underage women, well, I don't want say that you agree with me on that. I certainly believe that there were younger age women that were abused by him. And then, so the layer that I want you to, that I really want to have a frank discussion about, is some of these women have said, "Oh yes, Ms. Maxwell was there to varying degrees." She saw me there. The door was open when I was there, and then much more egregious that you participated and that you were part of it.

(01:29:12)
And so, what I really want you to have an opportunity to say to us is where on the spectrum the truth is. Whether it's somewhere in the middle, whether it's one extreme or another extreme, understanding, in my mind, I'm talking about 1994, '5 to whenever, late '90s or early 2000s.

Mr. Markus (01:29:35):

And let me just interrupt. And all I would say is we're not here to say anything one way or the other about Epstein. I agree with you that the evidence is overwhelming against him and he is his own person and has to deal with that. But Ghislaine can speak about what she knows and from her point of view and what she did. And that's what you can talk about, Ghislaine.

Ms. Maxwell (01:30:00):

So I think it's helpful to put this on, the time on the calendar because I think without that, we're lost. So I would say we'll go from the beginning '91? No. '2? No. '3? No. '4? No. '5? No. '6? No. In that timeframe, you have the allegations of Jane, who I dispute. I don't think he met her until she was-

Todd Blanche (01:30:27):

Let's not talk about individuals.

Ms. Maxwell (01:30:28):

No, no, no, I'm just saying.

Todd Blanche (01:30:29):

Yeah, I'm with you.

Ms. Maxwell (01:30:31):

But there's only, so in that time period, I am only aware of her. I'm aware of a girl (beep) who said, but, and (beep) and (beep) those, I don't know of any others. And if there are other people who are making allegations about, I'm not actually aware of them. I may have read them in the, but I don't know. So I think in the early '90s period, I think I'm fairly confident. And I can say that at least as characterized, it's just false. It didn't happen as said. Now, did it happen, did he involve himself? I knew about Jane because I saw her come to the house, but I saw her with her mother. I know that her allegations are that there were orgies, for instance. But the people that she suggests were in her orgies didn't even work for Epstein until '98 or '99. Did he do orgies with those people? And I don't know anybody who was there who said that they did. I certainly didn't see it. I can't say that that happened. Did she do it with someone else? I don't know. The stories really start, the allegations really begin with (beep), and I think that you have to shift his behavior, such as it was bar, there was one in California who made an allegation. There was a woman who said that she and she's, I didn't know about. So I think I would call her the first person. I'd be aware of him using his position to-

Todd Blanche (01:32:06):

But, and sorry to interrupt you, but I just want to, I don't think it's helpful for us to have you address each allegation. I want you to clear your mind and just tell the truth about it. So I'm not saying you're not telling the truth. I'm saying just putting aside what other people have said, or what their lawyers have said, or what they testified to, or the rumors in the press, push those aside. You were there. And so, when you go back to that time period, '92, '93, '99, 2000, 2001, during that time period, what did you see when it comes to young women and massages?

Ms. Maxwell (01:32:51):

All right. Sorry. All right. So I saw him receive massages. He had regular masseuses in the '90s, people who were standard and who traveled with him, and I saw that. He was living in that Iranian house, and now that I look back, he had, I didn't stay there, but I would go to manage the house. I would see women, models, or people that he would have come to the house. I know that I thought that he was with Eva still at that time. That's what I believed. And then, subsequently believed that even though she married him, I actually subsequently believed that the baby that she had was his.

Mr. Markus (01:33:32):

Can I interrupt for one second?

Todd Blanche (01:33:33):

Of course.

Mr. Markus (01:33:34):

Can I just ask some basic top line questions?

Ms. Maxwell (01:33:36):

Yes.

Mr. Markus (01:33:37):

Were you ever in a massage room with him and a masseuse?

Ms. Maxwell (01:33:41):

Yes.

Mr. Markus (01:33:42):

Okay. When was that?

Ms. Maxwell (01:33:45):

Well, he would come in sometimes and he would say, "Give her a massage here." Or he would grab my, but not often. I mean, he did come in from time to time.

Mr. Markus (01:33:55):

Were you ever in a massage room with him with a masseuse that was naked or giving him any sexual favors?

Ms. Maxwell (01:34:03):

I never saw that. That I remember.

Mr. Markus (01:34:07):

Did any of the masseuses ever discuss with you that they gave sexual favors to Epstein?

Ms. Maxwell (01:34:12):

No.

Mr. Markus (01:34:15):

Did you ever see an underage girl go into a massage room with Mr. Epstein?

Ms. Maxwell (01:34:19):

No.

Mr. Markus (01:34:23):

If you had seen that, what would you have done? Would you have left?

Ms. Maxwell (01:34:31):

I can't even conceive. I can't even conceive of, I can't imagine what I would've done.

Mr. Markus (01:34:36):

All right. I'm sorry.

Todd Blanche (01:34:36):

No, that's okay. Did you ever observe Mr. Epstein masturbating during a massage?

Ms. Maxwell (01:34:44):

Yes. I mean, when I'd seen him on a massage table, I had seen him masturbate. I don't know if there was a masseuse present, but I've seen him on a massage-

Todd Blanche (01:34:54):

Okay.

Ms. Maxwell (01:34:55):

Sorry, I just-

Todd Blanche (01:34:56):

Did you ever see him with a masseuse, with a naked woman either giving a massage or reporting to give him a massage?

Ms. Maxwell (01:35:06):

I don't remember seeing that.

Todd Blanche (01:35:10):

Did you give him massages, by the way? I mean, there's a photo of you rubbing his feet and I think but-

Ms. Maxwell (01:35:18):

I certainly have been in the massage room with him, and I have certainly rubbed his feet when we're talking, but I was not a masseuse and I didn't perform massage on him.

Todd Blanche (01:35:36):

Over the years, did you pay the masseuses?

Ms. Maxwell (01:35:39):

It was typically not my, but if there was nobody else, normally, so in Palm Beach, the houseman would give the money. And in New York, he would do that, because I wouldn't be in New York when he… I mean, I don't remember ever paying him a masseuse in New York. But maybe-

Todd Blanche (01:35:57):

So it wasn't your job on a regular basis to pay the masseuse. So if there was a masseuse seven days a week, it wasn't expected that seven days a week you would be the one handing them money?

Ms. Maxwell (01:36:15):

Mostly I would not. I'm not saying I never did it because that wouldn't be true, but it was not my job to pay them. I mostly recall he would either pay them himself, he would have money or the houseman, and I think some of them would've probably received checks.

Todd Blanche (01:36:28):

And so, just picking up on what Mr. Markus was just asking you, did you participate in sexual activity with him with a masseuse at the same time?

Ms. Maxwell (01:36:41):

No.

Todd Blanche (01:36:42):

And so, I don't know if there was testimony, but the women who have said that that happened, categorically, that's not true?

Ms. Maxwell (01:36:51):

That is categorically not true.

Todd Blanche (01:36:59):

Moving into the 2000s-

Ms. Maxwell (01:37:04):

I just want to say that I have been, I mean, I remember there'd be times when he'd be getting a massage and I would be in the room. I could be on his feet and somebody else could be on his feet and we could be talking. So there is that.

Todd Blanche (01:37:17):

But that's not, you're not talking about something that's sexual. You're talking about literally just rubbing his feet?

Ms. Maxwell (01:37:21):

Yes. But I mean-

Todd Blanche (01:37:23):

But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying-

Ms. Maxwell (01:37:25):

Well, they could be, sometimes the women might be topless who were giving that. So you could say that was sexual in that context.

Todd Blanche (01:37:33):

No, I'm talking about the repeated reports of certain sex acts happening with you present and even participating.

Ms. Maxwell (01:37:42):

No.

Todd Blanche (01:37:52):

In the 2000s time period, so moving a little more recently, when you talked about it yesterday about how your relationship with Ms. Epstein changed and was changing and you ultimately met somebody else. Did you observe any massages or young women giving him massages later on? So after 2000, 2001 time period?

Ms. Maxwell (01:38:22):

I'm sure I did.

Todd Blanche (01:38:23):

And was there anything different about what you observed during that period and the '90s as far as the frequency, his conduct towards them?

Ms. Maxwell (01:38:33):

I think the frequency increased. I think he went from one to two in that time period. But I did not see, I have no recollection of ever seeing a child entering the house and giving him a massage. At that time, he had moved me out

Ms. Maxwell (01:39:00):

… of the main house. I had moved into an office with Juan Alessi, the former [inaudible 01:39:04] under the stairs. So I had an office where I would be that was not part of the house. If I saw people … And I'm not saying I didn't see people come to give a massage, that wouldn't be true either. But if I saw someone, let's say, I don't remember ever seeing anybody that I would characterize as a child, no. Specifically someone who accused me of seeing her, at the time when she came, if I did see her … And I don't believe I did see her or meet her at all. But if she did, she, as she's described herself now, was very mature and looked in her twenties. So could somebody have come that was more mature looking than the allegation of what she did look like with a photograph that was produced as evidence? Yes. But I never recall at any time seeing what I would characterize as a child coming to give him a massage and going upstairs. Did I see people come? I absolutely did. I just didn't see children. I didn't see anybody I would think of as a child. And if I had seen a child, I'm not sure what I would've done.

Todd Blanche (01:40:33):

Just talking, coming out a little bit of just bigger picture, at the time that you were in his life, did he seem to you to be a sexual deviant or … I don't know what the right way to describe it. But when you say to me he was getting massages every single day, right? So young women were everywhere. Multiple massages on some days. Flew with the women to the island, to New York, Paris. There's always women. They're always rubbing him, giving him massages. I think it would be an understatement to say that that's not normal.

Ms. Maxwell (01:41:09):

I agree.

Todd Blanche (01:41:13):

We've all kind of been part of the Epstein story over the past several years, but you were there at the time. Okay. What was it like at the time? Was he a creepy guy when it came to that sort of thing? Was he protective of how he looked publicly image-wise? At the time, what was it like?

Ms. Maxwell (01:41:35):

I think if he had been creepy, as you would define, and you would expect someone who was living that lifestyle to be creepy, I don't think the women would've been there. I don't think that they thought of him as creepy. And if they did, I never saw them behave like he was being … Was it a lot? Yes, it was, for sure. I found it overwhelming and I couldn't understand why it was interesting because to me it's not interesting. But as he defined it, he found it invigorating. He liked being with younger people. And now, not just younger people. I'm just saying because they gave him ideas and they were up-to-date on music-

Todd Blanche (01:42:22):

Yeah, but let's talk about a masseuse coming every day.

Ms. Maxwell (01:42:24):

I'm just telling you what he was saying to me. To me, I just found it a drag and difficult and annoying.

Todd Blanche (01:42:37):

Did you …

Ms. Maxwell (01:42:41):

But understand I wasn't the only person present. So this time in the 2000s, you're talking about other people, like Sarah Kellen who was around, who interfaced with him. I didn't have to … She was really interfacing with Epstein at this point in time in his life. She was running his … She was his assistant. And so I didn't have to-

Todd Blanche (01:43:07):

That's a fair point. But move beyond his assistants or the folks that work with him. What about his friends and the people that were associated with him? I don't understand how this is an after fact of Mr. Epstein. So once he's arrested in Florida, it becomes part of his story. And then later on he's charged in Southern District and then here we are now in 2025. But he was a very successful, hard-working guy and he had a lot of clients and he flew with them on vacations and went to the island. I don't understand how he was able to hide this, what seems to me to be some sort of sexual fixation or issue from others.

Ms. Maxwell (01:43:56):

I don't think he did hide it. I think that's the answer. And I think that the people around him, myself included obviously, normalized his behavior on a number of fronts. One, I think because it was a self … Because so many people saw it, of such a high caliber down that never seemed to think it would … Well, if they thought it was strange, probably they never said it at the time. So it became sort of like it was his thing, right? He was always around with women. I understand that it's very unattractive, especially in light of everything that we know today. But at the time, the only way I can sort of try and describe it is through Sex and the City, the movie, the show on telly, where that lifestyle is described on the TV show constantly. There are always these women around and men who like it. And a lot of the men that I know like women. Maybe not as overtly as Epstein, but he was overt, not covert, except obviously in the context of the criminal behavior.

(01:45:28)
So what we're discussing now, there's a difference between the criminal behavior and the non-criminal. You don't like the lifestyle. I concur. I agree. Especially now. And I own my side of that fence, that I was there and that I saw his behavior with women and didn't challenge him or do something. But I don't think back in the 90s or the 2000s … We've had a cultural shift. And the cultural shift I think is a very important part of the analysis here. Not because I'm trying to justify this because I'm not. And I'm not trying to, and I'm not here to do the poor me program. So please don't misunderstand this.

(01:46:21)
However, in the 2000s when this behavior was going down, in the initial blush of the Palm Beach investigation, the women who brought the women who were under age, 17, 16, I believe, if my memory serves, were actually targets of the investigation and could have been charged with prostitution and trafficking, if trafficking was even a law. So you're taking behavior … And I did introduce him to women. I did. But not under age women. I understand that there are allegations. I have read them about myself going to schools. I can categorically tell you that I have never in my life gone to a school to pick up a child. Well, not for this purpose. I mean, my step-children. But okay, sorry. Just-

Todd Blanche (01:47:23):

No, I understand.

Ms. Maxwell (01:47:24):

Okay, thank you. I just want to be clear that I'm not trying to be cute or anything. But I did look for masseuses. I did. I went to spas. And if I met somebody who said she was a masseuse, I did not check their credentials. And of course if she was attractive, I did introduce her, yes. If I met friends who were interesting … He was constantly asking me to meet new and interesting people. I did do that. At the time I viewed it as … Well, first of all, part of my job I think, or part of my responsibility, if you were, to introduce … Because it wasn't just women. If I met somebody who was interesting, like Murray Gell-Mann, who I thought he would like, I did that. So it's not exclusively … But he did and I did do that.

Todd Blanche (01:48:16):

So I want to layer on top of what you just said, what we talked about yesterday more, but a little bit today already, which is everybody that was around him besides you, his friends. So I accept the lifestyle, I've seen the photos, we're all going to go to the island for a couple days or fly on a private plane and there's beautiful women everywhere. Do you, as you sit here today, think that the people around him weren't also of the same place, where they were also getting massages, where there was sex going on during them or things like that? And I'm obviously asking this because that's what everybody has said. And when you just described what it was like, the very next step from that is everybody's going to Vegas for the weekend. And so it seems kind of far-fetched to say that yes, that was his lifestyle, but then when he's taking groups of folks to the island or groups of folks to New Mexico or whatever, that they're all going to church in the morning while he's getting a massage.

Ms. Maxwell (01:49:35):

I hear you. I was there though. And you're talking about very substantial people and you are extrapolating because the narrative that started in … By the way, not until 2009 is when it really started. So that narrative that was created and then built upon and it just mushroomed into what … Basically this is like a Salem witch trial. People gone and lost their minds for this thing. I understand that. But the issue is, how do you satisfy a mob who can't understand the lifestyle, because it's like P Diddy Redux on TV with Clintons and Trump. I mean it's bananas.

(01:50:23)
And while some of it is real, he did do those things. I'm definitely not disputing that. But this was a man, he didn't even believe he had a real business. I happen to believe he did. Did he [inaudible 01:50:39]? I don't know because I wasn't really in his business. But this is a one man, he's not some … They've made him into this … He's not that interesting. He's a disgusting guy who did terrible things to young kids. You're not going to hear me say what he did to people who are over the age of 18. I'm sorry. I'm not going to go there. That's just not what I'm here to …

(01:51:12)
Okay. But to suggest that Larry Summers or Clinton would suddenly go, "Oh my gosh, this is like a … I'm going to get my body rubbed and have some sex." Men that went and had a massage and maybe did something sexual. They're men. I wasn't in the room. I cannot tell you if that happened. And if it did, I never paid for that. Just so that we're clear. Nobody ever said to me, "Oh, we had sexual intercourse and [inaudible 01:51:52] was a three …" Uh-huh. I would be like, "Okay, TMI. No, not my business." It's just not. And I didn't want to know. Maybe there's that.

(01:52:03)
But did I think these guys were coming for that? I really don't. If you met Epstein, there is no way that this cast of characters, of which it's extraordinary, some [inaudible 01:52:15] in your cabinet who you value as your co-workers and you know, would be with him if he was a creep or because they wanted sexual favors. A man wants sexual favors, he will find that. They didn't have to come to Epstein for that. Now did some … Okay, I don't know. I wasn't there. I didn't see it.

Todd Blanche (01:52:40):

So when's the last time you think you were with Mr. Epstein when he got a massage?

Ms. Maxwell (01:53:00):

I want to say 2007.

Todd Blanche (01:53:04):

2007?

Ms. Maxwell (01:53:05):

Yes.

Todd Blanche (01:53:10):

And the frequency at that point, so 2007, is that when it was at its peak, would you say? Meaning the number of interactions he was having daily with women and masseuses?

Ms. Maxwell (01:53:27):

So I wasn't really in his life. I happened to be in the Caribbean in 2000 … I was with Ted. I was still speaking with Epstein because I was still involved loosely with the houses and the staff and some of the billing. And I was going back from being with Ted in the Caribbean to New York and Epstein offered me a ride. And so Ted dropped me off in St. Thomas. And I was on the island I believe for one day and one night only. On that visit, I believe … Well, I know he would've gotten a massage. That there were people there, but I did not … There were women. And I was just relieved not to be be leaving the next day.

Todd Blanche (01:54:18):

Let's take a break.

Speaker 1 (01:54:21):

We're going to take a break. The time is 11:31.

(01:54:27)
We are resuming the audio recorded proffer agreement with Ms. Maxwell. And the time is 11:49 AM.

Todd Blanche (01:54:36):

All right, I wanted to follow up about former President Clinton's relationship with Mr. Epstein, not you. We touched on it, but can you just to set the … I have a couple of questions about it. But what's your understanding of their relationship from what you observed? Meaning for President Clinton and Mr. Epstein.

Ms. Maxwell (01:55:08):

I saw them talk. I saw them sit down and have chats about … I don't know, because I wasn't either party or didn't listen. And I know, I would characterize, originally anyway, Mr. Epstein's interest in him because obviously former president. But I never saw him … Other than that I saw him be friendly on the plane, but I don't believe, I don't recollect anyway, ever seeing him in any other context. I don't remember him at his house in New York. Like I said, I don't believe he ever went to the island. I think that was a story that [inaudible 01:55:46].

Todd Blanche (01:55:45):

Do you know one way or the other whether their relationship continued without you when you kind of moved on past Mr. Epstein?

Ms. Maxwell (01:55:58):

I don't believe so.

Todd Blanche (01:55:59):

Why do you say that you don't believe so?

Ms. Maxwell (01:56:00):

Because I don't think they had a relationship even when I worked there. President Clinton liked me and we got along terribly well. But I never saw that warmth or that warmth, however you want to characterize it, with Mr. Epstein. So I didn't see that. I didn't see President Clinton being interested in Epstein. He was just a rich guy with a plane.

Todd Blanche (01:56:34):

When the Southern District New York case kind of became public and there was a search warrant of Mr. Epstein's house, there was some sort of painting or picture of Mr. Clinton in a blue dress that had been signed. Do you know where he got that picture or that painting

Ms. Maxwell (01:56:50):

First I saw it was in the press.

Todd Blanche (01:56:52):

So you never observed that in his Brownstone?

Ms. Maxwell (01:56:57):

No. I thought it was hideous.

Todd Blanche (01:56:59):

What's that again?

Ms. Maxwell (01:57:00):

I thought it was hideous.

Todd Blanche (01:57:04):

So you don't know, sitting here today, where Mr. Epstein got it-

Ms. Maxwell (01:57:07):

No.

Todd Blanche (01:57:07):

… or the circumstances under which he got it?

Ms. Maxwell (01:57:08):

No.

Todd Blanche (01:57:11):

Do you know of any other gifts or paraphernalia or art or pictures that former president Clinton gave to Mr. Epstein?

Ms. Maxwell (01:57:26):

No. I mean, did he maybe get him a gift? I don't know. I have no knowledge of that.

Todd Blanche (01:57:32):

And then going back to the topic we were talking about before our last break. You said something yesterday at the very beginning of our conversation, that when you first met Mr. Epstein and you ultimately have sex with him, that he had, I'll use the word erectile dysfunction, but he had issues having sex.

Ms. Maxwell (01:58:02):

That's what he told me.

Todd Blanche (01:58:03):

That's what he told you?

Ms. Maxwell (01:58:04):

Yes.

Todd Blanche (01:58:07):

Okay. And then over the years, you said sometime in the 90s he started taking testosterone?

Ms. Maxwell (01:58:11):

Yes. I don't know if it was in the 90s. I don't remember when he started. He had patches, testosterone patches.

Todd Blanche (01:58:20):

Okay.

Ms. Maxwell (01:58:20):

Dermal.

Todd Blanche (01:58:20):

Like on his arm?

Ms. Maxwell (01:58:21):

Yes.

Todd Blanche (01:58:22):

Okay.

Ms. Maxwell (01:58:23):

And then he was ridiculous because you shouldn't take more than one. But sometimes he had … I'm like, "What are you doing? It's like unhealthy."

Todd Blanche (01:58:32):

Okay. From what you observed or saw or heard, did he continue to have challenges sexually over the years? Or do you think that whatever he told you, whatever issue he told you he had was fixed?

Ms. Maxwell (01:58:45):

I think it was a lie.

Todd Blanche (01:58:47):

You think it was a lie about what?

Ms. Maxwell (01:58:48):

About his erectile dysfunction.

Todd Blanche (01:58:50):

Oh. You mean you don't think he ever had any issues? You think he just told you that?

Ms. Maxwell (01:58:54):

That is what I believe today, yes. If any of the stories are true, he couldn't have had erectile dysfunction. The thing, he had a priapus, for Christ's sake.

Todd Blanche (01:59:01):

Well, that's one of the reasons for my questions. I mean, you're right. And again, we've talked about this a fair amount, the stories of what masseuses, underage and overage, have said about him and what he liked or what he demanded that they do, whether it's watching him masturbate or pinching his nipples, kind of things that are unusual, do you believe that? From what you saw and from what you observed from what you did when you're in relationship with him, is that true?

Ms. Maxwell (01:59:43):

Well, the bulk of what I read, he did not have sex. So that is consistent with what he told me actually. And his masturbating, that is also consistent with what I knew myself. And I'm going to use a bad word for-

Todd Blanche (01:59:59):

Please. You can use whatever words you need. Yes.

Ms. Maxwell (02:00:01):

Blowjob.

Todd Blanche (02:00:02):

Okay.

Ms. Maxwell (02:00:03):

He liked blowjobs. That I did observe. And he didn't seem to have any erectile dysfunction for blowjobs. But sex he didn't have. So when I read the stories about the allegations of sexual rape, I find that challenging because that was not his modus operandi, from my perspective.

Todd Blanche (02:00:23):

But when you read about blowjobs, that would be consistent with kind of what you-

Ms. Maxwell (02:00:30):

That would be consistent, as would masturbation, yes.

Todd Blanche (02:00:33):

Did you talk to masseuses or women that either he was in a relationship with or who asked you about working with him? Did you tell them, "Yes, he likes blowjobs, yes, he'll masturbate in front of you"? Did you have conversations with women about what Mr. Epstein liked or what would make him happy or things like that?

Ms. Maxwell (02:01:00):

I don't have any memory of telling anybody about that. I think I may have joked, like saying, "Oh my God …" Like from a Sex in the City scene that he's … But I never instruct … The question you're asking me, sorry, let's just be clear. Did I ever instruct anyone how to pleasure Mr. Epstein? Your question. No.

Todd Blanche (02:01:22):

And you said this earlier, you kind of said it on your own, I want to ask the question just so I make sure that there's no confusion. When you, over the years-

Ms. Maxwell (02:01:40):

Sorry, can I just [inaudible 02:01:41]?

Todd Blanche (02:01:40):

Yeah, of course. Yeah, please.

Ms. Maxwell (02:01:42):

I just want to say the idea that I would have to explain to a woman how to satisfy Mr. Epstein is patently absurd, because he clearly was able to explain himself. He didn't need an interlocutor to explain what he liked. He's been doing this obviously, or some version of this story his whole life and did not require any help from me.

Todd Blanche (02:02:08):

So did you ever observe him having sex with a masseuse, regular intercourse, not a blowjob, nothing else, where you either walked in or you were in the room?

Ms. Maxwell (02:02:18):

I never saw Epstein have sex with any person.

Todd Blanche (02:02:26):

So how about oral sex? Did you ever observe a woman giving him oral sex with you were in the room or walked in or-

Ms. Maxwell (02:02:37):

I never saw anyone give Epstein a blowjob, no.

Todd Blanche (02:02:42):

But you said earlier you did see him masturbating in front of masseuses?

Ms. Maxwell (02:02:48):

I don't know if I said that. I don't know if I said-

Todd Blanche (02:02:52):

Okay. Sorry. Let me ask the question … Sorry-

Ms. Maxwell (02:02:53):

[inaudible 02:02:53] sure I said that.

Todd Blanche (02:02:53):

No, that's fair. That's fair.

Ms. Maxwell (02:02:54):

I said I saw him, I'm sure I saw him in what some people could define as sexual context, somebody could not have their clothes … Or topless I would say maybe. I could say that. If I saw him masturbating when someone was … I don't recall that. I don't have a specific memory of it.

Todd Blanche (02:03:15):

Okay.

Ms. Maxwell (02:03:15):

But no, I didn't say that.

Todd Blanche (02:03:19):

Okay. No, understand. That's fair. Sorry, I'm not-

Ms. Maxwell (02:03:20):

That's okay.

Todd Blanche (02:03:21):

Surely not trying to put words in your mouth.

Ms. Maxwell (02:03:24):

No, no, absolutely. No, it's fine.

Todd Blanche (02:03:29):

And you said I think in passing, maybe not in passing, about whether other people who travel with him would get massages or … When I say that I'm referring mostly to the island or potentially New Mexico, but also his Palm Beach residence or even in New York. Do you have a list of names in your head or names that come to mind of people that you know did get massages when they were with Mr. Epstein?

Ms. Maxwell (02:04:06):

No, there's no list. There's no list of people getting massages. I can barely recall all the people … I can barely recall … I struggled to recall actual people that I met and I may have met … I had even forgotten about Mr. Kennedy or [inaudible 02:04:26] already brought it up yesterday. It just came to my mind now. So I don't have … And there's no list. There was never a list. Or certainly none that I ever saw. None I ever heard of. None that I ever witnessed. There's no list. There's never been a list.

Todd Blanche (02:04:41):

And you never heard Mr. Epstein talk about such a list?

Ms. Maxwell (02:04:46):

Never.

Todd Blanche (02:04:47):

And you never heard Mr. Epstein suggest that he had some sort of control over somebody because of what he knew about what they had done or had photos of him-

Ms. Maxwell (02:05:01):

No, I never heard him ask questions about that. I never heard him … So I've been present many times with masseuses. Who presumably could or maybe did massage somebody. I'm not saying whether they … [inaudible 02:05:16]. I never heard him ask any question of any masseuse who may have given a massage to a friend who was on the island or in Palm Beach or anywhere else any details about that massage, like, "Does he have a funky foot?" No, I never heard that. Weird.

Todd Blanche (02:05:33):

And I think at one of the breaks today, your lawyer may have showed you something that just came out in the paper, I think this morning or last night, a letter that is attributed to you associated with this birthday book from 2003 that we talked about yesterday. Did you see that letter?

Ms. Maxwell (02:05:56):

I did see the letter.

Todd Blanche (02:05:57):

Is that in fact just look like your handwriting or something you wrote?

Ms. Maxwell (02:06:00):

So I don't remember the letter, but it does look like my handwriting and it does look like my name and it looks like it could be real. But I have no memory of writing that and I don't remember it at all.

Todd Blanche (02:06:12):

Do you remember what the birthday book, as they're calling it, what it looked like, how it was put together?

Ms. Maxwell (02:06:19):

I do.

Todd Blanche (02:06:20):

What do you remember about it?

Ms. Maxwell (02:06:21):

I remember it was leather bound and I remember it being about yay big. It was big.

Todd Blanche (02:06:27):

So you're saying it looks like it's over 12 inches, 14, 15 inches?

Ms. Maxwell (02:06:30):

Yes. It was sort of like a folio size, I guess, or something like that. And like this. And it was brown and thick, about this thick.

Todd Blanche (02:06:40):

Okay. So just so I understand-

Ms. Maxwell (02:06:44):

On heavy stock paper.

Todd Blanche (02:06:46):

Heavy stock paper, like 14 inches high.

Ms. Maxwell (02:06:49):

That looks about right.

Todd Blanche (02:06:50):

And then around like-

Ms. Maxwell (02:06:52):

Well, A4. A4. We had A4 because it was done on heavy stock paper. But I can't remember if it was folio size paper or … It could have just been A4.

Todd Blanche (02:07:02):

Oh, I see. So it could have just been letter size or it might've been legal size-

Ms. Maxwell (02:07:05):

Yes.

Todd Blanche (02:07:05):

… heavy stock paper.

Ms. Maxwell (02:07:06):

Yes.

Todd Blanche (02:07:09):

So the folks that submitted letters were given the stock paper, or how were the letters … Or did you glue or something the letters to the stock paper?

Ms. Maxwell (02:07:19):

Every which way. Some were given a paper and they did their own thing. Some would send me some scrap of paper and I would put it on the thing. Some I didn't get because, again, straight to Epstein and I was just told to put them in, like I said.

Todd Blanche (02:07:35):

And how was it bound?

Ms. Maxwell (02:07:37):

It went to a professional binder who did it like a book that you'd see in the library.

Todd Blanche (02:07:43):

So like the glue that keeps a regular book, a novel that you would read together, it was bound that way?

Ms. Maxwell (02:07:49):

I believe so. I don't think it was stitched, but I don't remember. I mean, it was professionally done by a professional book binder.

Todd Blanche (02:07:57):

And then after you presented it, or after it was presented to him when he turned 50, did you see the leather bound book? Did he keep it somewhere in particular?

Ms. Maxwell (02:08:07):

It was in his bookcase in 71st Street.

Todd Blanche (02:08:11):

In Manhattan.

Ms. Maxwell (02:08:11):

In Manhattan.

Todd Blanche (02:08:13):

And did you see it over the years until you stopped going to the Brownstone?

Ms. Maxwell (02:08:18):

I saw it … I know I did see it because it was right behind his desk. And after I stopped going, I don't know what happened to it.

Todd Blanche (02:08:30):

Do you remember being told or knowing where the book is now?

Ms. Maxwell (02:08:35):

No. But when I received in discovery those pages, I assumed that it been found when either New York or the island was searched. And I assume that the Southern District of New York had it.

Todd Blanche (02:08:50):

But I think you said yesterday, but just to go over it again, in case you remember anything differently, you recall seeing some of the letters in discovery?

Ms. Maxwell (02:08:59):

I do.

Todd Blanche (02:09:00):

But you don't recall kind of seeing the leather book start to finish?

Ms. Maxwell (02:09:05):

No, but remember I didn't see all the discovery because they were very clever about … I didn't receive all discovery period. And in fact, some very important items were not given to me at all, including witness testimony from the grand jury.

Todd Blanche (02:09:21):

So you don't know one way or the other whether it was part of discovery. You just know that you didn't get, it wasn't part of discovery that was given to you?

Ms. Maxwell (02:09:28):

Correct. But I am absolutely sure that the Southern District of New York hid very important pieces of evidence from me.

Todd Blanche (02:09:35):

Okay.

Ms. Maxwell (02:09:41):

And I assumed that they leaked because where else would it be? If that's what it is, if it's true.

Todd Blanche (02:09:52):

Okay. So just so I put, I'll say it to you, I've talked a little with your lawyer about it, I said to you yesterday that the purpose of what we did yesterday and today was exactly what we did, which is to have a conversation about Mr. Epstein and about you. And I think it's very challenging to talk about everything we talked about in one and a half days or in just a period of hours. So I'll talk to Mr. Marcus about what we're going to do next, if anything. And I'm not being coy or … I don't know yet. I don't know. So we have some work to do. We'll do it with your lawyers, to the extent we have questions or follow-up. And this has been very helpful. It was you who kind of said you wanted to talk, but we gladly accept it. So I do appreciate you being willing to meet with us. And I expect that we'll be in touch soon.

Speaker 1 (02:11:23):

This concludes the recorded proffer interview of Ms. Maxwell. The time is 12:05 P.M. on Friday, July 25th.

Speaker 7 (02:11:34):

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