MA v. Lindsay Clancy Day 16

And she actually, according to your testimony yesterday, asked you for your phone or to access your phone to make a phone call. Is that correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (42:25):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (42:26):

So she was able to communicate with you?

Dr. Donald Condie (42:29):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (42:29):

She asked you for something and you clearly understood what she was asking for?

Dr. Donald Condie (42:33):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (42:34):

And you indicated that she asked to call her husband, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (42:37):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (42:38):

Had you spoken with her husband before that time?

Dr. Donald Condie (42:41):

I did not speak with him at that time. I didn't know him, and I had not spoken to him prior to that time.

Shanan Buckingham (42:47):

So how'd you get the phone number to call him?

Dr. Donald Condie (42:49):

I did not have the phone number to call.

Shanan Buckingham (42:51):

So she provided you with a phone number to dial so that she could call him on speakerphone, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (42:56):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (42:57):

And she remembered the number?

Dr. Donald Condie (42:59):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (42:59):

And so you indicated on that day, on February 4th, that she left a voicemail, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (43:03):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (43:04):

So in that voicemail message, were you able to identify that it was Patrick Clancy's phone? Did it say, "Hey, this is Pat, leave a message," or something to that effect?

Dr. Donald Condie (43:14):

I don't remember the salutation from the voice recording, but there was no evidence that it was not Patrick Clancy.

Shanan Buckingham (43:24):

And as far as her confidence in the number, she gave it to you with no issue, did she not?

Dr. Donald Condie (43:31):

That's correct.

Shanan Buckingham (43:32):

She didn't have her own cell phone to refer to, did she?

Dr. Donald Condie (43:35):

That's correct.

Shanan Buckingham (43:36):

Or a pad of paper where all the numbers were written down?

Dr. Donald Condie (43:38):

She didn't.

Shanan Buckingham (43:43):

You indicated that she left a message. Do you recall what the message was?

Dr. Donald Condie (43:48):

She expressed a love for him, want to know how he was doing, and that was pretty much it.

Shanan Buckingham (43:56):

And again, you said that you didn't write down what the mental status exam was, but the fact that she was able to relay that message, was it clear and coherent what she was saying?

Dr. Donald Condie (44:07):

Yes. Mental status exams are multiple levels. Different things are asked. If you don't know where you are, it doesn't mean you can't have a conversation with someone.

Shanan Buckingham (44:16):

And she was able to have a conversation with you that day?

Dr. Donald Condie (44:19):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (44:21):

Now, you said you went back on February 6th and met with her again, correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (44:27):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (44:28):

And you guys made another attempt at calling Patrick?

Dr. Donald Condie (44:33):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (44:34):

Again, did you remember the number?

Dr. Donald Condie (44:37):

No.

Shanan Buckingham (44:37):

Did you have it stored in your phone?

Dr. Donald Condie (44:40):

No.

Shanan Buckingham (44:40):

Did she provide you his phone number to call?

Dr. Donald Condie (44:42):

Well, it was in my phone. I could just look it up in my phone. I didn't write it down. I didn't enter his name. Either she gave it to me again or I just looked it up from two days prior.

Shanan Buckingham (44:53):

But you don't recall, as you sit here today, which it was, do you?

Dr. Donald Condie (44:55):

No.

Shanan Buckingham (44:56):

And you didn't write a report about that interaction, did you?

Dr. Donald Condie (44:59):

I did not.

Shanan Buckingham (45:00):

So in the second phone call, you were able to actually hear that she was talking with Patrick on the other end, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (45:09):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (45:10):

And at that time when you were now second time meeting with her and having this phone call, were you aware that she had already changed her healthcare proxy from Patrick to her parents?

Dr. Donald Condie (45:22):

I did not know that.

Shanan Buckingham (45:27):

Did you talk to Patrick in between the 4th and the 6th to find out if he had tried to come in to visit her?

Dr. Donald Condie (45:35):

I didn't speak to him at all, so I knew nothing about what his plans or intentions were.

Shanan Buckingham (45:40):

Your testimony yesterday was that she had called him to tell him that she loved him and to see where they were at, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (45:48):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (45:49):

That was your testimony? Meaning what? Their relationship?

Dr. Donald Condie (45:56):

I made no interpretation of what that meant. She left the message and we left it at that.

Shanan Buckingham (46:02):

But in that subsequent conversation that you were a witness to where they were speaking on the phone and she told them about these voices or explained about the voices, did she ask about the kids?

Dr. Donald Condie (46:19):

She did not, as I recall.

Shanan Buckingham (46:28):

Now, in all of the times over the course of the last few years that you've met with Ms. Clancy, how many times has she told you since the incident that she's heard a voice currently?

Dr. Donald Condie (46:44):

She has not heard voices since the event took place in 2023.

Shanan Buckingham (46:54):

And you've now testified that over the course of a period of time that she did hear voices, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (47:04):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (47:05):

And is that based on one of these 35 hours worth of conversations you had with her? How do you know that?

Dr. Donald Condie (47:14):

Well, they were collateral contacts. I spoke to other people who I asked the nature of their interactions with Ms. Clancy, and it was not a fishing expedition. I asked them if they can tell me what happened.

Shanan Buckingham (47:34):

I'm asking you-

Speaker 1 (47:34):

But they disclosed. Pardon me.

Speaker 2 (47:36):

You have to let them finish.

Dr. Donald Condie (47:37):

So they disclosed information to me that Ms. Clancy shared that information with them.

Shanan Buckingham (47:42):

So who did she tell that she had a voice that told her to kill herself?

Dr. Donald Condie (47:50):

She spoke to a chaplain named Sheila Cavanaugh, who I spoke with. And Chaplain Cavanaugh told me that Ms. Clancy told her that she heard a male voice instructing her to first kill her children and then to kill herself.

Shanan Buckingham (48:17):

So the same message that she delivered to Patrick that day on the phone, you heard from a chaplain at Brigham and Women's Hospital after the incident occurred in January of 2023?

Dr. Donald Condie (48:31):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (48:32):

And so, from all of the records that you reviewed of her treatment and all of the interviews with her family, who did she tell that she heard voices telling her to kill herself?

Dr. Donald Condie (48:45):

I believe she told family members.

Shanan Buckingham (48:48):

Which family members?

Dr. Donald Condie (48:49):

I believe she may have said that to her mother. She, I believe, told her husband that she felt like killing herself as well.

Shanan Buckingham (48:58):

In the records with the providers, you're aware you've reviewed them all and you've sat through all of their testimony. You're aware that when she described intrusive thoughts, she never referred to them as a voice telling her to kill herself, did they? Did she?

Dr. Donald Condie (49:19):

No, she was referring to-

Shanan Buckingham (49:19):

It's just a yes or no.

Dr. Donald Condie (49:19):

No.

Shanan Buckingham (49:20):

So as far as her reports of these intrusive thoughts that appear over and over in the notes, you would agree that it was simply when asked about what they were, it was simply that she felt like she wanted to die, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (49:39):

Yes. And-

Shanan Buckingham (49:39):

It's just a yes or no.

Dr. Donald Condie (49:40):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (49:44):

Now, in your report, you go through what's called the sources of information. You're familiar with that part? It's pretty standard in a forensic report, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (49:58):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (49:58):

Where you list all of the things that you've gone through and reviewed in compiling the information for your report.

Dr. Donald Condie (50:04):

So in my sources of information, I reviewed the following, but that list is not limited to the following. So there might be other pieces of information that I may have reviewed, but didn't put in the list.

Shanan Buckingham (50:17):

Okay. So not on the list are the Tewksbury Hospital records that you said you reviewed recently, correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (50:25):

Yes. The 7,000 pages of those hospital notes. I didn't review all of them at the time of the report.

Shanan Buckingham (50:31):

Did you review records from the Spaulding Rehab facility?

Dr. Donald Condie (50:35):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (50:35):

That's not contained though in your list in your report, is it?

Dr. Donald Condie (50:40):

I don't think it is.

Shanan Buckingham (50:41):

And you don't cite to any of the Spaulding Rehab records in your report coming to your ultimate conclusions, do you?

Dr. Donald Condie (50:50):

I do not.

Shanan Buckingham (50:52):

And how about the women and infant records? Did you list that in your sources of information section?

Dr. Donald Condie (50:59):

I do not. She was there for one day.

Shanan Buckingham (51:03):

Okay. But you've testified about that, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (51:07):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (51:08):

Did you review them at all?

Dr. Donald Condie (51:09):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (51:10):

And as far as the McLean records, you don't list the McLean records as a source of information in your report, do you?

Dr. Donald Condie (51:18):

I did not, but I did review them.

Shanan Buckingham (51:24):

Now, you've described and you describe in your report that you believe that Ms. Clancy was hypomanic, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (51:31):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (51:32):

And I believe you testified to some extent, and you've written in your report that you identify her as euphoric, excessively energetic for three months postpartum. Do you remember writing that in your report?

Dr. Donald Condie (51:45):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (51:46):

That you note that she exercised early, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (51:50):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (51:51):

But you're aware that she exercised pretty frequently before birth?

Dr. Donald Condie (51:56):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (51:57):

And while pregnant with Callan?

Dr. Donald Condie (51:59):

And while post- pregnancy with her children as well, yes.

Shanan Buckingham (52:04):

So it was part of her routine, fair to say, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (52:10):

It's part of everyday living. Things sometimes change when you have a baby and a few weeks later, if you're still doing the same exercise, it's sometimes a reflection of something other than committed to fitness.

Shanan Buckingham (52:24):

And you identify what you refer to as a marketing scam being that Beachbody business, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (52:32):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (52:33):

But you're aware that that's a series of workouts in a line of nutritional shakes and exercise plans that millions of people engage in across the country?

Dr. Donald Condie (52:43):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (52:46):

So it's not a scam. It's just a way of a lifestyle choice.

Dr. Donald Condie (52:51):

If you do something for marketing and you lose all your money and there's no effort to get that back, it's a scam.

Speaker 2 (52:58):

You've asked some, you figure out what its definition is.

Shanan Buckingham (53:03):

Sorry. Did she tell you she lost money with a Beachbody?

Dr. Donald Condie (53:06):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (53:06):

When was that?

Dr. Donald Condie (53:10):

It was summer of 2022 after her third child was born.

Shanan Buckingham (53:16):

No. When did she tell you that she lost money?

Dr. Donald Condie (53:18):

I don't recall that.

Shanan Buckingham (53:20):

And is it in your report?

Dr. Donald Condie (53:22):

It may be, but I'm not sure.

Shanan Buckingham (53:25):

Well, I have it with me or do you have it up there? Can you look and point to me where she told you, at what point she told you she lost money in this endeavor?

Dr. Donald Condie (53:39):

I don't know where it is, if it's here. It didn't seem relevant whether she lost money in a scam after her child was born in terms of the big picture of what we're here for today.

Shanan Buckingham (53:50):

You've described it as a scam because you said she lost money. So wouldn't it be important to know if she actually lost money?

Dr. Donald Condie (53:59):

I don't really think so.

Shanan Buckingham (54:01):

Okay. You also identify the five-mile race that she completed. Was it a five-mile race or a 5K race?

Dr. Donald Condie (54:11):

Well, I wasn't sure which it was. I was told initially it was a five-mile race. After my report was submitted, it may have been with reflection, a 5K race.

Shanan Buckingham (54:26):

And you've sat in the courtroom each and every day of this trial, so you've heard all the testimony about the evidence, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (54:32):

Actually, I've not been here every day, but I've been here most days. Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (54:37):

You're also aware that prior to the kids being born, that she considered herself a runner?

Dr. Donald Condie (54:47):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (54:47):

Right? She had a treadmill at her house. She went to the gym and used the treadmill. She ran other races.

Dr. Donald Condie (54:52):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (54:56):

Now in your report, you indicate that part of the timeline of her medication and her decline is the September time period where she was prescribed the Zoloft, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (55:20):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (55:20):

And you indicate that she had reported, and it's reflected in the records, that she increased the Zoloft and that's when she couldn't sleep for 48 hours straight, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (55:32):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (55:32):

And you're aware of what the instructions were having reviewed everything in this case, what the pill bottle said as far as the plan for the Zoloft?

Dr. Donald Condie (55:41):

I'm not sure specifically the incremental plan to go from 25 milligrams to 50 milligrams of Zoloft.

Shanan Buckingham (56:09):

Well, I have the bottle. Exhibit number two. Sertraline, that's Zoloft, right? Brand named Zoloft?

Dr. Donald Condie (56:17):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (56:18):

It says, "Take one oral tablet once a day for one week, then increase to two tablets daily thereafter."

Dr. Donald Condie (56:23):

Right.

Shanan Buckingham (56:24):

Right on the label.

Dr. Donald Condie (56:25):

Right. That's 25 milligrams to 50 milligrams.

Shanan Buckingham (56:29):

And again, having been at the majority of this trial, are you aware that there were 30 in that prescription and 23 left in the bottle when they were inventoried?

Dr. Donald Condie (56:42):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (56:43):

And those are pills that were in Patrick Clancy's possession at the time of these events in January, you're aware, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (56:50):

Yes. I believe they were in the middle console on the lower part of his truck. The lower part of the middle console in his truck.

Shanan Buckingham (56:58):

So if there's only seven pills missing from a prescription that requires the person to take a particular dosage for one week or seven days, how did she double the dose?

Dr. Donald Condie (57:08):

Well, sometimes when you are given medication, you may have medication of the same exact dosage and the same exact medication another time. And you therefore may have pills that you didn't take the previous month or the month before that. And sometimes people just finish what they've had before and before they go on to the most current dose. So I am aware of what you're referring to, but I don't know if there are other bottles there that she may have had medication still in those pill bottles.

Shanan Buckingham (57:42):

Well, I'm looking at exhibit number one, a record from CVS Pharmacy, which all of these bottles are from. And the only time a prescription for sertraline is spelled is on September 15th, 2022 for 30 pills. You aware of that?

Dr. Donald Condie (58:00):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (58:00):

So there's no prior prescription for sertraline, is there?

Dr. Donald Condie (58:04):

I don't think so.

Shanan Buckingham (58:08):

Now in your report, you also refer to 11/29. And your report on page eight, paragraph two says on 11/29 Paula Gelata. Is that supposed to be Rebecca Gelata?

Dr. Donald Condie (58:24):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (58:25):

Okay. So it also says that she prescribed Seroquel to treat Ms. Clancy's anxiety, depressed and unstable mood and psychotic symptoms of disassociation and derealization. Where is that in Rebecca Gelata's record that that's why she prescribed Seroquel?

Dr. Donald Condie (58:40):

I'm not sure.

Shanan Buckingham (58:41):

And in fact, you were present when Ms. Gelata testified and said that she prescribed it at 25 milligrams for insomnia, not for anxiety, depression, unstable mood, or psychotic symptoms. Did she not?

Dr. Donald Condie (58:57):

It's used off-label. It's sometimes medications are made from anything. Sometimes they're used off-label, not for what they're prescribed for. So that's a medication that is used for sleeping, although it's an antipsychotic.

Shanan Buckingham (59:09):

But you're aware from reviewing the records and hearing testimony that that initial prescription was for a 25 milligram dose, correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (59:15):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (59:16):

I know you're not a prescriber, but you're aware that a dose for treatment of bipolar is significantly higher than 25 milligrams?

Dr. Donald Condie (59:24):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (59:35):

Now, you've described in your testimony in this court repeated auditory hallucinations about wanting to kill herself or that she should kill herself and that she is damaged or her brain is damaged, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (59:53):

That's correct.

Shanan Buckingham (59:54):

Now, did you have a conversation with her in one of these 35 hours about that particular voice or thought or belief?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:00:02):

So when I meet with Ms. Clancy, it's not as if I have one conversation on one of the 35 hours. To have thoroughness and exactitude, one does what we call intra-rater reliability. In other words, over the period of time to confirm what someone says to you to help endorse the veracity or accuracy of that, you'll ask that question in a multitude of different ways. So I don't just ask once, "Did you hear a voice on that day?" I asked in different ways over time, and her answers pretty much remain the same.

Shanan Buckingham (01:00:47):

So when you quote in your report, when questioned about the nature and content of these horrible thoughts, Ms. Clancy stated, "Like a really bad and intrusive thought that I didn't feel like it was mine telling me I should kill myself. Your brain is damaged. You're never going to get better." Where does the quote come from?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:01:06):

Where does the quote come from?

Shanan Buckingham (01:01:08):

Right.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:01:08):

She had said that to me.

Shanan Buckingham (01:01:10):

To you at some point?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:01:12):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:01:13):

Okay. And this is well after the incident occurred, correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:01:18):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:01:19):

And you reviewed all the records to know that she did not endorse that she was hearing a voice to any of her providers between September and January 23, 2023.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:01:32):

So when someone-

Shanan Buckingham (01:01:33):

Yes or no, sir.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:01:36):

That's a difficult question to say yes or no from, because sometimes if someone says something that's inaccurate, it's not an affirmatory or a negative response, that's misleading.

Shanan Buckingham (01:01:48):

My question to you though was where in the records from September to January 23, 2022 did she tell any of the providers she saw that she heard a voice telling her to kill herself?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:02:02):

It's not in the records.

Shanan Buckingham (01:02:03):

Okay. And you're aware that she has spoken to several forensic psychiatrists and psychologists over the course of this case, right, not just yourself?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:02:13):

Yes. She spoke to three retained experts in April 10th and April 12, 2026. And then on June 12, 2026, 1, 172 days after I initially met with her, then 1,220 days after I met with her. That's the third examiner.

Shanan Buckingham (01:02:44):

Well, you're aware that she. You're referring to Dr. Heilbrun, Dr. Mack, and Dr. Saathoff, correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:02:51):

Correct.

Shanan Buckingham (01:02:51):

But you're aware that she also spoke with Dr. Resnick and Dr. Spinelli well before that?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:02:57):

On May 5, 2023, approximately 90 days more or less later. Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:03:07):

And you're also aware, sir, that she never told Dr. Resnick in a recorded interview, nor Dr. Heilbrun, Dr. Mack, or Dr. Saathoff that she heard.

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):

Objection.

Speaker 2 (01:03:20):

Sustained.

Shanan Buckingham (01:03:25):

Your testimony is that she told you that she heard this voice. Fair to say she identified to you that it was her own voice that she heard, correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:03:36):

That's not correct.

Shanan Buckingham (01:03:38):

So she told you that she heard a male's voice?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:03:42):

That's correct.

Shanan Buckingham (01:03:42):

When?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:03:44):

On the night of the incident, January 24, 2023.

Shanan Buckingham (01:03:49):

No, I'm referring to the fact that you've now testified that she heard this, as you call it, a persistent... What's the word you used? Persecutorial voice over the course of time. Was that your testimony?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:04:03):

So you're referring to the ongoing negative voices or intrusive thoughts that she was hearing where she felt, in fact, other people could hear those voices, thought broadcasting. So there are multiple layers here of hearing intrusive thoughts.

Shanan Buckingham (01:04:23):

But I'm asking-

Dr. Donald Condie (01:04:25):

Hearing voices so loud that she believed other people could hear her. Those are two separate phenomenon, if you will.

Shanan Buckingham (01:04:34):

In those voices that you are saying she told you she heard about wanting to die or to kill herself or her brain was damaged prior to January 24, 2023, did she say it was her own voice she could hear? It was her own thoughts.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:04:50):

She did not identify whose voice it was.

Shanan Buckingham (01:04:53):

Fair to say the only time she specifically said she heard a male voice was when she recounts the events on January 24, 2023.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:05:03):

Yes, that's accurate.

Shanan Buckingham (01:05:05):

And you'd agree that there's a difference between the idea that somebody believes their thoughts would be or could be heard by others and the belief that they are being heard by others, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:05:18):

Yes. It's a matter of semantics and it's a level of degreeism. Believing and knowing, two totally separate things.

Shanan Buckingham (01:05:28):

And believing, having a fixed belief like that would be a delusion, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:05:35):

That's correct. A delusion is a fixed false belief that is unshakeable and not something you get rid of either through your own efforts to tell the voice to go away or other people saying, just for example, try to stop thinking about it.

Shanan Buckingham (01:05:53):

And the idea that she believed that something was wrong with her brain or that if people could know what was happening, that the police might get involved, that is something that could happen if somebody articulates those things, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:06:12):

Absolutely. It's common sense.

Shanan Buckingham (01:06:16):

Now in your report, you also indicate that in your testimony, you indicated that on January 5, 2023, that that's when Ms. Clancy was discharged from McLean Hospital. And I think your testimony was that she went in there on Seroquel and I think you indicated Klonopin, correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:06:42):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:06:43):

And your report says Seroquel and Klonopin. You recall that?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:06:47):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:06:48):

You're aware that based on the medication journal that is in evidence, that she hadn't taken Klonopin since November 27, 2022?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:06:59):

She had a prescription for that and I think she may have taken some, but may not have been on a regular basis.

Shanan Buckingham (01:07:06):

But you have seen the pages of her journal to know that she's pretty diligent about saying exactly what she took on each particular date?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:07:14):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:07:14):

Leading up to her stay at McLean and even after.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:07:17):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:07:23):

Now, sticking with these medications for a second, you have testified, I think this was yesterday, you testified that you were familiar that after Dawson's birth that she had sought some medication, correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:07:41):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:07:42):

And I believe you testified yesterday that she was on trazodone, but in fact, she was prescribed Zoloft after Dawson and reported she didn't ever take it, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:07:51):

That's correct. So after my testimony, I reviewed that and I confabulated the trazodone with another medication, the Zoloft.

Shanan Buckingham (01:08:03):

And again, you've talked a lot about that the medications that she was taking, the different medications didn't provide her with any sort of relief. So it's important to know the different medications she was taking and what the reactions were, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:08:16):

I don't know if I talked a lot about it. I was asked questions. I answered them honestly. They didn't provide relief. I would agree with that. And that was the whole point of her seeking help.

Shanan Buckingham (01:08:27):

And her history, whether it be medication history, a social history, a family history, those are all important things overall for you to look at and examine when coming to ultimate conclusions, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:08:41):

For everyone, yes, of course.

Shanan Buckingham (01:08:43):

So it's important to be accurate when you are recalling or reporting that information?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:08:47):

As much as possible as one can be. Yes, that's true.

Shanan Buckingham (01:08:50):

And as far as the medication goes, I think you testified yesterday that she also took medication in nursing school, correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:08:58):

Yes, she did.

Shanan Buckingham (01:08:59):

And having met with her as many times as you did in reviewing all these records, you're aware that those were in fact Prozac, Wellbutrin, and propranolol that she took in nursing school?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:09:08):

That's correct. That was for what's called glossophobia. G-O-L-L-O-S-P-H-O-B-I-A. It's fear of public speaking. Most common fear for Americans. 85% Americans have public speaking phobia. Pretty commonplace. But yes, those are the medications that she took while she was in nursing school to go through the program.

Shanan Buckingham (01:09:33):

But that's not what she testified to yesterday.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:09:35):

I think I mentioned only one or two medications, she had taken three.

Shanan Buckingham (01:09:59):

Okay. And you also mentioned-

Shanan Buckingham (01:10:00):

... you also mentioned, today in your testimony, you were asked about the date of December 15th. And I believe your testimony was, "That's the day she went to Women and Infants." Is that correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:10:14):

I believe so, yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:10:17):

If I show you the record, is it fair to say she didn't go to Women and Infants on the 15th, but it was actually December 20th?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:10:22):

Right. I believe she went to the Mass General Hospital ER on the 15th.

Shanan Buckingham (01:10:28):

And you said in your testimony today, that at the Mass General ER, she did not get any help. Do you recall that testimony?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:10:34):

She declined admission to the inpatient. She didn't want to do that.

Shanan Buckingham (01:10:39):

She didn't not get help.

Kevin Reddington (01:10:41):

Can he answer? Can he answer?

Bailiff (01:10:41):

Go ahead.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:10:44):

Thank you, Your Honor. We have something called the subjective baseline. The cognitive appraisal theme. Help is in the eye of the beholder. If she felt she didn't get help, that's how she felt.

Shanan Buckingham (01:10:58):

Well, sir, that wasn't the question. And your testimony was, "She went to the ER and did not get help." That was your testimony, not hers.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:11:07):

Well, my testimony is based on my evaluation of her. This is what Ms. Clancy shared with me. Who am I to doubt what she believes, or doesn't believe, about the offer for treatment or help? It's her opinion.

Shanan Buckingham (01:11:24):

She chose to decline the bed at McLean on December 15th, did she not?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:11:28):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:11:29):

And she then indicated to the Mass General Hospital that she was going to opt for an outpatient program at the Women and Infants, correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:11:38):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:11:39):

That's what's in the records?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:11:41):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:11:41):

And did she tell you that as well?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:11:43):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:11:44):

And, as it pertains to the Women and Infants, again, after your review of the records, you're aware that a referral had been made to her well before her visit to the ER on the 15th for that same program?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:11:57):

I believe so.

Shanan Buckingham (01:12:17):

Now, you've indicated in your testimony that it's your opinion that her diagnosis is bipolar disorder with psychotic symptoms, correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:12:27):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:12:28):

And fair to say, prior to your report, you had reviewed Dr. Resnick's report?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:12:38):

I'm not-

Kevin Reddington (01:12:39):

Objection.

Bailiff (01:12:50):

Can I see counsel step up?

(01:12:59)
Go ahead, counsel.

Shanan Buckingham (01:13:02):

So the question I believe was, did you review a report of Dr. Resnick in all your sources of information and before you came to a conclusion about diagnosis?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:13:13):

No, I did not.

Shanan Buckingham (01:14:32):

Well...

(01:14:32)
One moment. Sorry. On page four of your report, were you-

Bailiff (01:14:33):

Hold on one second. Okay. I'm sorry, counsel.

Shanan Buckingham (01:14:48):

On page four of your report where you list the sources of information, you do identify as number 24, forensic psychiatric evaluation of Philip J. Resnick from 9/27/24, do you not?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:15:00):

I do.

Shanan Buckingham (01:15:01):

And so that's something you reviewed?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:15:04):

I didn't draw my opinion.

Shanan Buckingham (01:15:06):

That wasn't the question, sir.

Kevin Reddington (01:15:07):

[inaudible 01:15:08] Objection.

Bailiff (01:15:08):

All right. Hold on. Ask the question again. Go ahead.

Shanan Buckingham (01:15:12):

Did you review his report?

Kevin Reddington (01:15:12):

Can we have a sidebar? That's not the question.

Shanan Buckingham (01:16:24):

So the question, sir, is did you review Dr. Resnick's report prior to authoring your report or coming to your conclusions about diagnosis?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:16:33):

I reviewed part of that report. And in my report, I perused through the reports. I did not review all of that report from Dr. Resnick or Dr. Spinelli for that matter.

Shanan Buckingham (01:16:48):

Okay. Now in talking about your review of records, you indicated that there are several thousand pages of Tewksbury Hospital records, correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:17:05):

7,001 page.

Shanan Buckingham (01:17:07):

And did you review all of those?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:17:11):

I would say I looked through them, but I did not read every word on every page. They do have a tendency to hang together and are replicative as well.

Shanan Buckingham (01:17:23):

Were you aware that on May 26th, 2023, that the defendant was observed by staff in a note stating that she was visible along the unit hallways, self-propelling her wheelchair with her one-to-one staff, that she had a visit with her mother who brought dinner for her? They ate and played games during the visit. Are you aware of that?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:17:45):

On May 26th?

Shanan Buckingham (01:17:46):

May 26th of 2023.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:17:51):

May '23. So three years ago and a few months. I don't know that. I don't remember.

Shanan Buckingham (01:17:56):

That would've been approximately four months after the incident and on the date of Callan's first birthday, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:18:05):

Yes. But you asked if I remember that event and I don't.

Shanan Buckingham (01:18:10):

You don't or you do?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:18:12):

I don't remember that she was seen with her mother on that day who brought food and she was seen using a wheelchair to travel down the hallway at the hospital. I don't remember.

Shanan Buckingham (01:18:26):

If I tell you that was read from page 176 of the Tewksbury Hospital records, would you agree with that?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:18:33):

I would not doubt that.

Shanan Buckingham (01:18:35):

Okay. And on December 24th of 2023, were you aware that the defendant was observed at Tewksbury monitored on one-to-one for safety, that she accepted medication, meals, and snacks. She spent time in the TV room or sitting outside her room utilizing phone and visited with family. Do you recall that, reading that note on page 613 of the Tewksbury records?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:19:01):

Of 2023?

Shanan Buckingham (01:19:02):

Yes.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:19:04):

Honestly, I don't.

Shanan Buckingham (01:19:05):

And that would've been Cora's birthday.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:19:10):

Okay.

Shanan Buckingham (01:19:10):

But would you agree with me that if I read that from page 613 in the records, that that would be within that 7,001 page of the record?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:19:18):

I would not doubt that.

Shanan Buckingham (01:19:20):

How about on January 24th, 2024, where she's observed in a note from Tewksbury State Hospital on page 674 where the note reads, "Patient was visible in the milieu, engageable with both staff and select peers. Patient accepted select medications as her baseline. That she was pleasant during interactions. Self-propelling in wheelchair in the halls, spending much of the morning and early afternoon in her room and hall on her electronics." Do you recall reading that record?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:19:53):

Not specifically.

Shanan Buckingham (01:19:54):

And January 24th, 2024 would've been the year anniversary of the incident, correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:19:59):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:20:01):

But if I read from page 674, you would agree with me that that's part of the Tewksbury record?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:20:07):

Yes, I believe it's part of the record.

Shanan Buckingham (01:20:11):

And on, excuse me, May 26th of 2024 from page 922 of the Tewksbury record, "Patient monitored one-to-one for safety. She's been monitored for high suicide risks, accepted medication." It says, "BFK and snacks. She spent some time in the TV room or sitting outside her room utilizing phone." Would you agree that that's a fair reading of page 922?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:20:40):

I have no reason to doubt that.

Shanan Buckingham (01:20:43):

Okay. And that she's also observed on that same day visible on the unit while utilizing her phone outside her room. Was able to make her needs known appropriately. Patient was observed playing dominoes with peers in the TV room. That was later in the day on May 26th, 2024, which would've been Callan's second birthday.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:21:06):

I would believe that that record's probably accurate. I don't remember looking at that record specifically.

Shanan Buckingham (01:21:13):

How about on September 30th of 2024, page 1,229 of the Tewksbury record where it's noted that, "She was visible in the unit, attended startup/coffee group, she was assisted with ADLs as needed. She was in safe behavioral control for the duration of the shift." And that later it reads, "Patient visible in the hallways, seated in her wheelchair outside her bedroom using her cell phone. Pleasant upon approach. Social with select peers." That would've been on September 30th, 2024, which would've been Dawson's fifth birthday. Do you recall reviewing that in the record?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:21:55):

Not off the top of my head, but I have no reason to doubt that's not an accurate record.

Shanan Buckingham (01:22:03):

December 24th, 2024, page 1,442 of the Tewksbury records says, "The patient was visible on the unit utilizing her phone. Her parents were in to visit and they brought dinner with them. Patient accepted medications and fluids. Patient in good behavioral control, maintaining safety. No SIB noted or reported." Do you have reason to doubt that that's on page 1,442 of the Tewksbury record?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:22:31):

I have no reason to doubt that that's not an accurate reflection of what took place that day.

Shanan Buckingham (01:22:36):

And what's SIB?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:22:38):

Self-injurious behavior.

Shanan Buckingham (01:22:44):

And so December 24th, 2024, that would've been Cora's seventh birthday, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:22:50):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:22:51):

So January 24th, 2025 from page 1,514 of the Tewksbury records where it reads, "Inpatient treatment goal: To work on my mental health and to feel better." It says, "She participated in morning ADL routine with staff assistance. Patient was visible on the milieu at times in the hallway utilizing her phone. No SIB has been reported this shift." Do you have any reason to doubt that that's contained on page 1,514?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:23:28):

I have no reason to doubt that.

Shanan Buckingham (01:23:30):

And the further observations on that day were that the patient was visible on the unit. She was social with select staff and peers and also seen utilizing her phone. Her parents were in to visit and brought her dinner. Or excuse me, and they brought dinner with them. That was again on January 24th, 2025, which would've been the second anniversary of this incident, correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:23:52):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:23:54):

May 26th, 2025, page 1,782 of the Tewksbury records. It says, "She did not engage in any SIB. She was visited by her parents this shift. She attended startup group and watched TV." That would've been on May 26th, 2025, which would've been Callan's third birthday. Do you have any reason to doubt that in the record?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:24:21):

I have no reason to doubt that.

Shanan Buckingham (01:24:26):

And on September 30th, 2025 of the Tewksbury record on page 2056 reads, "Patient was visible in the hallway using her phone. No SIB or behavioral issues observed or reported." Do you have reason to doubt that that is an accurate read of page 2,056?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:24:52):

I have no reason to doubt that that's not accurate.

Shanan Buckingham (01:24:55):

And that would've been September 30th, which would've been Dawson's sixth birthday, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:25:00):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:25:01):

And on December 24th of 2025, page 76 of the patient notes in the Tewksbury Hospital records reads, "At breakfast, refused lunch, took snacks, utilizing phone, assisted with ADLs, spent some time in the TV room, attended PT, resting in bed after lunch." Do you have any reason to doubt that is contained within the Tewksbury records on page 76?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:25:34):

No.

Shanan Buckingham (01:25:36):

And December 24th would've been Corey's eighth birthday, correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:25:44):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:25:47):

And on page 152 of the Tewksbury records, January 24th, 2026 of this year, "Patient observed her safety, assessmental status, encouraged safe behavioral control, monitoring for abrupt behavior change in attempt to prevent escalation or self-harm. Encouraged patient to participate in groups. That and on this particular day, she was also observed compliant with meds, ate breakfast, participated in coffee group, visible in the hallway utilizing her phone. Later visited with parents and had an early lunch." That was on January 24th of 2026. Do you have any reason to doubt that's within the records?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:26:38):

No.

Shanan Buckingham (01:26:38):

And that she was later observed to not have any SIB or behavioral issues again on January 24th, 2026. Do you have any reason to doubt that's contained within the Tewksbury records?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:26:50):

No. No.

Shanan Buckingham (01:26:54):

And again, you reviewed or looked at some of them, but not every one of these, but these are already currently in evidence, correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:27:04):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:27:06):

Your Honor, I would move to admit these excerpts as the next exhibit, please.

Bailiff (01:27:11):

Any objection?

Kevin Reddington (01:27:12):

No problem.

Bailiff (01:27:12):

All right. They may be admitted.

Speaker 3 (01:27:20):

283.

Bailiff (01:27:20):

Okay. Thank you.

Shanan Buckingham (01:27:24):

And Dr. Zeizel, as far as the records that I just read in, do you know if in those records it indicates that she slept well on all of those occasions?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:27:58):

I wouldn't know. I don't know how...

Shanan Buckingham (01:28:03):

Well, you would agree that noting her sleeping habits based on this particular individual's history would be important thing for the hospital to monitor, correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:28:14):

I would agree with that.

Shanan Buckingham (01:28:22):

Now, in this particular case... Well, let me ask you, are you familiar with the concept of confirmation bias?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:28:31):

Of course.

Shanan Buckingham (01:28:32):

And fair to say it's pretty prevalent in most areas of science and forensic psychology and psychiatry, correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:28:43):

It courses all domains of work and life.

Shanan Buckingham (01:28:48):

And as far as confirmation bias for psychiatry or providers, fair to say that clinicians are warned that they may lean towards or support their own theories and overlook contradictory evidence and that you have to be aware of that, correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:29:06):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:29:06):

And again, in forensic psychology, the goal is to render an objective opinion, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:29:11):

Yes. The facts come to you. You don't go to the facts.

Shanan Buckingham (01:29:15):

Okay. And there's a danger for clinicians and forensic psychologists of quickly forming an initial diagnosis before having all the information, correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:29:29):

Yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:29:30):

And that confirmation bias accounts for the fact that a lot of times people, clinicians and providers will cling to diagnoses and interpret subsequent information in light of that kind of already perceived idea. Is that fair to say?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:29:45):

They cling... I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying. They cling to a diagnosis?

Shanan Buckingham (01:29:51):

Well, once a diagnosis is reached, they cling to that diagnosis when interpreting subsequent information.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:30:01):

That happens, yes.

Shanan Buckingham (01:30:04):

But you would agree that in practice of forensic psychology, that it's important not to do that, right?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:30:10):

Particularly with the guidelines of criminal responsibility where you don't need a diagnosis. You just need a mental disease or defect.

Shanan Buckingham (01:30:18):

A diagnosis are helpful in understanding whether the person was suffering from this legal construct of a mental disease or defect, correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:30:26):

That's fair to say.

Shanan Buckingham (01:30:27):

And it's fairly accepted in the field that if somebody has a disorder or a diagnosed mental illness, that they then in turn suffer from a mental disease or defect? Or could.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:30:45):

Or could, because you can have a phobia. Doesn't mean you have a mental disease or defect. If you're afraid to jump out of airplanes, it can make you ineffective and have a defect or a disease. So yes, it could.

Bailiff (01:30:57):

Could I ask you to keep your voice up?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:30:58):

Yes, Your Honor.

Bailiff (01:30:59):

Thank you.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:31:00):

So it could, but it doesn't always have to.

Bailiff (01:31:01):

Thank you.

Dr. Donald Condie (01:31:02):

Of course.

Shanan Buckingham (01:31:04):

And you are aware of the danger, this idea of confirmation bias of having multiple relationships and conflicts in this type of work, correct?

Dr. Donald Condie (01:31:14):

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