Spencer Horn (00:03):
Today's date is Thursday, July 24th. This will be the recording of a proffer agreement of Ghislaine Maxwell from the Deputy Attorney General, DOJ. And the time is currently 9:16. Maxwell and counsel are arriving to the U.S. Attorney's Office and we will commence the proffer shortly.
Todd Blanche (00:32):
I'm going to ask everybody to put their name on the record here.
Diego Pestana (00:33):
Of course.
Spencer Horn (00:38):
Good morning. My name is Assistant Special Agent in Charge, Spencer Horn of FBI New York. Today we are doing a proffer of Ms. Maxwell. The date is July 24th and the time is 10:12 AM. This interview is being recorded.
Todd Blanche (01:02):
And my name is Todd Blanche. I'm the Deputy Attorney General. And before we start formally asking questions of Ms. Maxwell, I'm going to put on the record everybody that's in this room in addition to me. Starting with you, Diego.
Diego Pestana (01:20):
Diego Pestana, Associate Deputy Attorney General.
Todd Blanche (01:22):
And then you heard from Special Agent in Charge Horn. Mark Beard from the United States Marshal Service is here as well. And then David?
David Oscar Markus (01:32):
Yes, this is David Oscar Markus, and I'm counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell.
Thea Sapien (01:39):
My name is Thea Sapien and I'm counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell.
Melissa Madrigal (01:43):
My name is Melissa Madrigal and I'm counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell.
Todd Blanche (01:45):
Go ahead.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:50):
And I'm Ghislaine Maxwell.
Todd Blanche (01:52):
Good morning, Ms. Maxwell. How are you?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:54):
Good morning, Mr. Blanche.
Todd Blanche (01:55):
Good. So before we started recording, we'd met for a few minutes. I introduced myself and we've chatted and now I told you that we were going on the record. And before we start asking questions, I know that you've been given, by your lawyer, a copy of what's called a proffer agreement. And I just want to spend two minutes making sure that you understand what governs our conversation today. The most important part of this agreement is that this isn't a cooperation agreement, meaning that, by you meeting with us today, we're really just meeting. I'm not promising to do anything. I'm not promising to ask Judge Nathan or any of the judges that have been assigned to your case to do anything. We're just talking.
(02:44)
And so, that's the most important part of this agreement. However, almost as important is the fact that, what this agreement does for you is it gives you protection. So what it means is that the government cannot use what you say today against you with some exceptions, which we'll talk about in a minute. But whatever you talk about today, you have what's called immunity. So that means that the words that you say today, we cannot use against you in a case-in-chief if we were ever to bring one. Okay?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:16):
Thank you.
Todd Blanche (03:18):
There's exceptions to that, the most meaningful one of which is that, if you say something today that's not true, that's a lie, we can bring a prosecution against you for what's called false statements. So I'm a federal officer, I have several officers here. The FBI is here, and if you lie to someone like me or like Special Agent Horn, it's a crime. So you have to be truthful. The other exception to this that doesn't necessarily apply directly to you, but if there ever was a retrial in your case, or if there ever was a future criminal case against you and your lawyer, or you said something different or took a position that's different than what you say today, we can then cross examine you or witness based upon what you say today.
(04:12)
So it's a little bit nuanced, meaning I can't use what you say against you in our case-in-chief. However, if you were to testify, or if your lawyer called a witness to testify and they said something that was totally different than what you say today, we could then cross examine you or the witness and say, "Hey, do you remember when we met with Ms. Maxwell back in July of 2025? She told us…" And then say what she said. Okay?
Ghislaine Maxwell (04:39):
I understand.
Todd Blanche (04:42):
Other than that, I know you didn't have a lot of time this morning to meet with Mr. Markus, but did you have a chance to go over this briefly with him?
Ghislaine Maxwell (04:51):
I did.
Todd Blanche (04:53):
So I've already signed it as has Special Agent Horn, and Mr. Markus signed it as well. So you got a pen, please sign it right where it says clients.
Ghislaine Maxwell (05:04):
Is this right here?
Todd Blanche (05:04):
Yeah. And I will provide a copy of this to your lawyers so you guys have it.
Ghislaine Maxwell (05:07):
Thank you.
Todd Blanche (05:10):
Thank you. So Ms. Maxwell, about a week and a half ago or two weeks ago-
Diego Pestana (05:19):
You see the light blinking on there, on the Sony? Yeah, there, you see?
Todd Blanche (05:30):
We're just confirming that it works, and it does. Ms. Maxwell, I guess about a week and a half or two weeks ago, Mr. Markus reached out to me and said that you wanted to speak with somebody from the government about, not only your case, but about everything that's been in the media and that's been publicized about Mr. Epstein in your case. And the-
Ghislaine Maxwell (05:54):
That is true, and I did speak to him and I did ask him if, or did tell him that I would be very keen to talk to anyone because no one from the government, at any time ever, since the inception of the case, so dating back to the early 2000s has ever spoken to me, and indeed, I believe ever reached out to me at any time to even speak to me. And that includes up to when I was indicted and prosecuted. I believe that, or I understand, I should say rather, that my attorneys at the time did tell the government that I wanted to speak to them because I was very keen to meet with anyone so that I could tell or have them ask me any question. I've never had any problem to speak to anybody. And I offered myself and I kept asking if they would meet with me so I could talk to them. And for whatever reason, that was not happening.
Todd Blanche (07:07):
I have questions that I want to ask you, but I'm not… If there's a path or question that I'm not asking that you think should be asked, I invite you to volunteer. Same thing goes to your lawyers. Just to start a little bit, very briefly can you talk about when you first met Mr. Epstein? I know that goes back a while and just very generally talk about your relationship with Mr. Epstein from the time you met him all the way up until his death.
Ghislaine Maxwell (07:42):
I met Mr. Epstein in 1991. I'd never heard of him or met him before and no one in my family had ever either. My father never knew him. And I'll explain why that is the case. I met-
Todd Blanche (08:07):
Where did you meet him?
Ghislaine Maxwell (08:09):
I had a girlfriend who… Backing up, I had moved to America briefly in… Well, I had moved to America in 1990. Well, moved is a big word. I'd come to visit America in 1990. I had been running my own company up until that time, which was a company called Maxwell's Corporate Gifts. And I had also been working for my father at the time. I had had multiple jobs with him where I was… In 1990, I was working with a new company of his, a new newspaper that he was launching called The European, and I was in charge of launching a magazine to go with The European. And I was traveling at that time from England to America because my father was looking to… Well, he'd also bought Macmillan, the publishing house, and he had purchased the New York Daily News. And it's true to say that my father always wanted me to come back full-time and work for him, but that's a much longer story I don't think we need to go into at this time. But I was always working with him. There was no escaping, as it were, to work for him.
(09:48)
So in 1990, I had come over to New York to help look at some of that. He was having some advertising issues with the New York Daily News. And in fact, I may have met Donald Trump at that time because my father was friendly with him and liked him very much. And I think it should be said that he also very much liked Ivana because she was also from Czechoslovakia where my dad was from. So I don't remember if I did meet him or not in 1990 with my dad, but I knew that that's how I knew about then Mr. Trump.
Todd Blanche (10:32):
And this was before you met-
Ghislaine Maxwell (10:34):
This was before I met Mr. Epstein.
Todd Blanche (10:35):
Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (10:35):
Yes. So I was already going backwards and forwards in America. And then in April of 1991, I came to New York, I can't remember for what reason, what business reason, but there was a business reason, something to do with my dad at that time. And a girlfriend of mine who, an American actually, told me… I'd broken up with my long… I'd been engaged with a very long term boyfriend and we'd broken up." And she said [inaudible 00:11:11], as girlfriends do, "I've got a guy for you to meet." And I was like, "Who is it?" And she goes, "He's been dating my sister. You'll love him. He's looking for a wife."
(11:22)
I'm edging towards 30. I don't need to tell you guys that's a very important moment for a girl to think about important things. And I, "Sure, I'd be happy to meet him." And so, sometime in 1991, now we're in 1991, I met him at his offices then on Madison Avenue. And I think the most memorable thing I can think about that is he was wearing a tie, which he didn't often do, and it had a giant tomato ketchup stain on it. So I was like, "Wow, okay." And that was how we met.
Todd Blanche (12:01):
Was your meeting at his office for you to meet him just personally or were you there for-
Ghislaine Maxwell (12:09):
I was just-
Todd Blanche (12:09):
Work-related reasons?
Ghislaine Maxwell (12:10):
Not work. I knew nothing about him. He just invited me to come and have tea and I was like, "Tea, that's English. Okay." But what was unusual was in his offices. So I went to his offices and we met. And I found him very engaging, and that was that.
Todd Blanche (12:29):
So that's how you meet him. And again, I don't want to spend a lot of time on this particular issue, but what happened with your relationship over the years from the time you meet him in 1991 up until the time he passed away? Just give the highlights.
Ghislaine Maxwell (12:48):
Okay, the highlights. So I was looking for real estate for my dad to buy some, and Epstein told me that he was also looking to move from his apartment and would I help him. And I just said, "Sure." I'm looking already so I could look for him. So that's how it started. And then, in 1991, my father passed away and I returned to New York after that originally to come back and help with the family businesses, which was in [inaudible 00:13:18]. And then, the debacle of my father's passing hit the family and we lost all our businesses. And my family thought that would be best if I stayed in America because of the intensity of the press and the drama surrounding my father's death in England. So I stayed, and Epstein said, "Well, you can keep helping me. You can help me find a house and you can decorate the house." And it gave me something to do.
Todd Blanche (13:57):
Were you in a romantic relationship with him at this point?
Ghislaine Maxwell (13:59):
No.
Todd Blanche (13:59):
Or just friends?
Ghislaine Maxwell (13:59):
Just friends.
Todd Blanche (14:01):
And while we're just… With respect to your father, there have been multiple questions about whether he worked for any intelligence agency. Do you have any knowledge about that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (14:17):
I think, well, certainly my father had a background in intelligence during the… Because he was, I believe he did in the Second World War, he was a British intelligence officer. I think that my belief is that, once you've been an intelligence officer, you're always… It doesn't mean that you're formally employed. So I don't think my dad, in any formal sense, was employed by any agency. But when you are a very significant businessman and politician as my father was, you meet with people over time and you, I guess, trade business or ideas. I think if that would fall under that definition, that's how I would think it. I have no formal knowledge of anything specifically that he did in that thing, but if you're asking me if I feel that he did help people, the answer would be, yes, I do.
Todd Blanche (15:22):
Did your father and Mr. Epstein have a business relationship over the years? I know we're maybe jumping around a little bit.
Ghislaine Maxwell (15:33):
They never met. So-
Todd Blanche (15:33):
As far as you know, they never even met?
Ghislaine Maxwell (15:33):
No. I [inaudible 00:15:34]-
Todd Blanche (15:33):
Or you know they never met?
Ghislaine Maxwell (15:34):
I know they never met.
Todd Blanche (15:35):
Well, how do you know they never met?
Ghislaine Maxwell (15:37):
Because just categorically, no, they never met. Well, because, in 1991, before my father died, he asked me if I'd met anybody interesting or whatever because I was still trying not to be sucked back into the family business. And I told him that I had met Mr. Epstein. And the reason why I shared that I'd met Mr. Epstein because I believed, at that time, that Epstein worked for Bear Stearns and Bear Stearns was one of our banks. And I knew that my father was friendly with both Jimmy Cayne and with Ace Greenberg. So my dad was actually in New York, I think, if I'm… I don't think I had this conversation on the phone, but honestly, we're talking 30 years ago, so I'm not sure. But maybe I told him this verbatim because I know that what my dad did, whether I saw it or whether he did it and told me later, that I don't remember, but he called both Jimmy Cayne and Ace Greenberg to ask what sort of guy he was and was he even allowed to… Because, father. So he-
Todd Blanche (16:52):
They never met-
Ghislaine Maxwell (16:53):
He didn't even know who he was.
Todd Blanche (16:56):
But they knew some of the same people it sounds like, or certainly the Bear Stearns connection was something that you knew that they had?
Ghislaine Maxwell (17:03):
No, well, he never had a connection with Epstein. He had a connection with the bank. Epstein, I'd never heard of him or knew of him before. And certainly, if my dad had known him, when I said this is who he was, he didn't know who he was. So he rang Ace and he rang Jimmy to ask if it was okay that I even knew him. And I just want to explain briefly why my father would even do such a thing. Sorry.
Todd Blanche (17:36):
It's okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (17:42):
I've had some interesting things that have happened in my life and one of them was to be found on an IRA kidnap and murder list. And so, after that happened… Well, there were other related, I'm not going to bore you with all the horrible things in that vein, but if you want the details, of course, I can. But after that happened, my father wanted to put a lot of protection on me obviously, and I declined on the grounds that that would be a very life-restricting events. You're all in law enforcement, I know you understand this. And so, he had told me that I would be taking my life in my own hands and whatever. And so, I think after that event and several others where I had stalkers and other things that one has, he was always quite protective of me. And so, if I met somebody, he would try and verify that they weren't going to do anything hideous. And so, in case you thought it was weird that he would call Jimmy and Ace, you may think it is, but from my perspective, he was just, because he was concerned. I was in America alone and he had an opportunity to verify who this person was. And so, I don't know if I was in the room with him, I don't recall but I know that, at some point, my father told me, "He's fine, you can see him. He's safe." Well, okay…
Todd Blanche (19:30):
So we might come back and touch a little bit more on that at some point, but I went down a rabbit hole for a minute [inaudible 00:19:37]-
Ghislaine Maxwell (19:36):
That's all right. I just wanted to-
Todd Blanche (19:38):
No, that's helpful. Thank you. So you're now in the '90s, and you're friends with Ms. Epstein, decorating the house or the apartment. What happens with your relationship? Again, I know we're talking about a 35-year time period or whatever, but to the extent you can, at a very high level, talk about it.
Ghislaine Maxwell (19:59):
Listen, I think just full disclosure is the best way to go at this point. So in 1992, I slept with him one time and I was like, "Woo, that's it. We're going to be dating." Because that's how I thought. And I thought to myself in that moment, because I felt, if you slept with someone that you were then dating them. That's the world I came from. But that really… Well, that's how I thought. But we didn't sleep together again for, I don't know, a really significant period of time. And when I say-
Todd Blanche (20:37):
Like years or?
Ghislaine Maxwell (20:44):
I don't know if it was a year, that feels long, but maybe nine months. A long time. I just want to go back. So I had found a house for him to rent in New York because he had asked me. I'd been looking one for my father, and I found one which was a former Iranian embassy, I think it was. I belonged to the Iranians or the Iraqis. Someone. And I didn't know that he had any money, really. And I want to say it was $12,000 a month, which to me seemed like a fortune. And I said to my him, "I found this house, but I don't think you can afford it." And he's like, "Don't be ridiculous. Of course, I can afford it." And he rented it.
(21:29)
And that house came with… It was a State Department house because I think it was under sequestration or whatever it was. Anyway, I put it back together. But there were certain rules. You couldn't paint, because it had to go back, when you gave it back to the country that… So he had this house and I had moved into a 10-foot by 10-foot apartment because all of our stuff had been either lost or frozen or whatever. So he became, in this moment, my life really. Because everything was… It felt very similar to this moment, if that makes any sense. Anyway, but I had no key to his house. I had no free access to his house. And in the entire time that he lived there, which was I believe until the beginning of 1996, I never slept a single night in that house with him. Ever. Not one.
Todd Blanche (22:31):
So you said a minute ago that you had slept with him on one occasion, and at the time, you remember thinking that this meant you were in a relationship, but then it didn't. You really were not in that type of relationship.
Ghislaine Maxwell (22:45):
Well I thought-
Todd Blanche (22:46):
Did that change between '91 and '92 or whatever and years forward?
Ghislaine Maxwell (22:53):
So I did travel with him a lot. So I would go to his houses in Palm Beach. He only had that house, actually [inaudible 00:23:01]. No, that's not true. He had the house in Palm Beach and he had a house in Ohio.
Todd Blanche (23:07):
In where?
Ghislaine Maxwell (23:08):
Ohio. And he had the house in Ohio because of his business relationship with Mr. Wexner. And I had to go and decorate and put that house together. When we traveled together, we stayed in the same bed, but not in any… But I didn't… His…
Todd Blanche (23:35):
Go ahead. It's okay. Talk. So when you would travel with him to his houses in Palm Beach, Ohio, or even just traveling, if it was just traveling with him, you would stay in the same bed, so sleep in the same bed with him?
Ghislaine Maxwell (23:54):
Yes. Epstein told me that he had a heart condition.
Diego Pestana (24:04):
A what?
Ghislaine Maxwell (24:06):
Heart condition.
Diego Pestana (24:08):
Heart condition.
Todd Blanche (24:08):
A heart condition.
Ghislaine Maxwell (24:09):
Which meant that he didn't have intercourse a lot, which suited me fine because I actually do have a medical condition, which precludes me having a lot of intercourse.
Todd Blanche (24:29):
So what was your understanding of his heart condition and why that prevented him from having intercourse regularly?
Ghislaine Maxwell (24:36):
I don't know. He liked other forms of sexual activity.
Todd Blanche (24:53):
Well, let's come back. We're going to obviously spend a lot of time on the actual conduct he was accused of, so we'll come back to that. So pick up where you were talking about you traveling around with him. He rented the New York, former Iranian house.
Ghislaine Maxwell (25:14):
Iranian. There you go.
Todd Blanche (25:16):
Until around '96. That time, I believe you said that he was basically your life, you were with him pretty regularly.
Ghislaine Maxwell (25:24):
Well, no. So I never was with him regularly. That is one of those misnomers. At the beginning, I did see more of him, but I worked in his office. So I would go to the office and I would see him and I would count in my head when I would see him. I would count that that would be a day that I would see him. But I never ever stayed with him. No. I believe, certainly until '93 or '94, what I didn't know was that I think he was still with his actual girlfriend who was Eva Andersson then, became Eva Dubin. They had been together, my understanding, I think about 10 years. I'm not sure, but that's what I think, 10 years.
(26:11)
And I had understood, from my girlfriend initially, that they weren't together and Epstein himself had told me that they were not together. But I don't think that was true. In fact, I know it's not true. So they were still together up until I think '94, when, at some point in that period of time, Eva met Glenn Dubin and they got married I think in '94 or I don't remember when they got married. But her, she was his best friend and his everything. He told me that he always wished that he had married her and had a child with her. And I know that she was family for him for his whole life. And I think even, I'm not sure this is true, but you guys would know if this is true or not, when he came back from Paris and you arrested him, I don't know if Eva was on the plane.
(27:04)
Now, I think that either I read it in the discovery that I received or I saw it somewhere, but even if she wasn't on the plane, there must have been some email communication where she was in Paris at the same time or going to fly back with him. One or the other, I don't know which one is the correct version of that. So they were still obviously very close and remained throughout the entire time. In fact, he saw her a lot. And so I also know now, which I didn't know at the time, was that he saw lots of other women. And I know that now because I can see it from the flight logs and I know it now because I can see from the emails.
Todd Blanche (27:49):
So you know from the case-
Ghislaine Maxwell (27:51):
Yes, not from-
Todd Blanche (27:52):
What happened?
Ghislaine Maxwell (27:53):
Yes. I didn't know-
Todd Blanche (27:53):
You didn't know that along the way?
Ghislaine Maxwell (27:54):
Contemporaneously, I absolutely did not know.
Todd Blanche (27:58):
And we're going to spend time on everything you're talking about, but just to close out big picture your relationship. So we're now in the late '90s, continue on with, again, staying high level to the extent you can about your relationship with him.
Ghislaine Maxwell (28:18):
So my responsibilities increased with each acquisition that he held and each new project, so I believe the first thing that he purchased after was the ranch in New Mexico. And so, what he had tasked me with up until that… And I think that was purchased in '94, if I'm right. So he had tasked me, one of the things that we did was visit… In my mind, I say every state, but it wouldn't have been every state, but many states to go look at real estate and property. And so I know we went to Montana. I know we went to Utah to go look at real estate. It was fun, to be honest. And then I arranged for us to go to New Mexico and he just loved New Mexico. And then, I don't remember how the ranch happened. I don't remember that now. It's lost. And then, he ended up buying the ranch. And I think, if I'm right, it came from… Well, the Kings who may have been the governor… I don't know. Anyway… Bought the ranch.
(29:25)
And then, I had to deal with that. Dealing with that was extensive. The way that I thought of myself or the way that I think is the best way to explain how I view my role was as a general manager. Because each property, to me, was like a hotel. So the ranch was very challenging because, not only that, but it had BLM land. So to maintain your BLM, you had to have cattle. And I love animals. And so, the first thing, horses. And so I wanted it… If you're going to have a ranch, I like authenticity, so I don't think you should have a ranch if you're not going to have the things that make it special.
Todd Blanche (30:10):
So were you paid by him along the way during this time?
Ghislaine Maxwell (30:16):
I became salaried at some point. My memory is that I got paid 25,000 a year to begin with. That's my memory. I may be wrong. And then, with each… As it became obvious… Because I kept thinking I was going to go home. Home being England. But it-
Todd Blanche (30:39):
And financially, you were not relying on him? The 25,000 or whatever amount you were paid, were you relying on that money to live and his generosity to live? Or did you have your own money?
Ghislaine Maxwell (30:52):
So there is a-
Todd Blanche (30:54):
And again, I want to just make sure we're talking about keeping it between the late '90s, maybe, I guess, into a little the 2000s.
Ghislaine Maxwell (31:02):
I just want to hit something on the head right now. There's a tremendous amount of reporting that said that I had a…
Thea Sapien (31:06):
Trust fund.
Ghislaine Maxwell (31:09):
Thank you. A trust fund. I have never had a trust fund at any time.
Todd Blanche (31:13):
So how did you live? Did you live with… 25,000 is not enough to live on.
Ghislaine Maxwell (31:17):
No. So I had… During this period of time, the Serious Fraud Squad had come to see me in relation to my father's passing and to establish whether I had been involved in any way with his business or with any shenanigans. I think I've told the story many times, so I don't know if it's now somewhat apocryphal, but I'll tell you what my memory is. So I received a letter from them that said I can't go about my business. And my memory may be apocryphal, there was a PS that said [inaudible 00:31:55]. I had nothing. I was never involved in any of his business, whatever. So I was free. And-
Todd Blanche (32:04):
But obviously your father and your family had a lot of businesses. Is it because whatever money or whatever equity was in the businesses just stayed with your other family members?
Ghislaine Maxwell (32:19):
No, there was no money. So my father was never attached to money. He was born a peasant. A real one. Dirt floor, no shoes, no clothes. Well, some clothes, but not… Sorry, I don't mean to say… And nothing. And he was never into that. There were things that he had his extravagances, he loved his boat and his plane, so obviously you need money for that. But there was nothing else. And there was not a single penny that came to any of us at any time, ever.
Todd Blanche (32:59):
So when you're talking about your life with Mr. Epstein in the '90s, you're very different financially positioned than he is?
Ghislaine Maxwell (33:12):
Absolutely.
Todd Blanche (33:13):
Meaning he's giving you money, he's paying for your… When you fly, he, I assume-
Ghislaine Maxwell (33:16):
Absolutely.
Todd Blanche (33:16):
Pays for your flights?
Ghislaine Maxwell (33:17):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (33:21):
So I interrupted you when you were saying how you were functioning as general manager. You helped with the New Mexico ranch. So did your role with him continue like that for many years or for how long?
Ghislaine Maxwell (33:36):
So I continued. In 2000… Well, back up. By 1999, our relationship had foundered. In-
Todd Blanche (33:46):
Why?
Ghislaine Maxwell (33:50):
Well, two reasons. We were never sleeping together again, so we stopped having sexual relations in 1999. Not…
Ghislaine Maxwell (34:01):
… full sex. Sorry, just to be clear. Didn't mean that we didn't still share a bedroom sometimes or whatever. He had another girlfriend.
Todd Blanche (34:10):
He had what?
Ghislaine Maxwell (34:11):
Other girlfriends. I definitively knew that it was over after 9/11 actually, because we were both from New York and, I don't know, were you in New York on 9/11? I mean, 9/11's … And it was a scary time if you were in New York. You didn't know. I didn't know. Nobody knew what was going on. And he was in 71st Street and I was in 65th Street, my house. And he wouldn't see me at all. Asked me his mum, whom I'm very close to, who was in hospital at Lennox Hill, just asked me to look after her. And then I knew, as anyone did at that time, if you're not going to be there for someone in 9/11, you're never going to be there. So for me, that was the line's end. And he had another English girlfriend actually, from 2000.
Todd Blanche (35:18):
Are you, though, still on his … Are you still being paid by him at this point?
Ghislaine Maxwell (35:23):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (35:25):
Okay. So go ahead. So at that point when you say you realized kind of it was over-
Ghislaine Maxwell (35:37):
Well, I mean, I'm talking about the … I had had … There was a … I had wanted to get married and have children. And Epstein had encouraged me to believe that that would … I don't know about the … Certainly by the mid late '90s, I knew the marriage part was never going to happen. I had believed that maybe in '96, '97, '98 maybe, but then I realized it wasn't that. But I did think that we might have a child, which is what I had really wanted. And I realized-
Todd Blanche (36:10):
Okay. So what happens between 2001 and then 2019 with your relationship with him?
Ghislaine Maxwell (36:16):
So …
Todd Blanche (36:17):
Give or take, 2001.
Ghislaine Maxwell (36:19):
So we stopped having physicality. I mean, that doesn't mean we weren't friends. I certainly did stay, sometimes, in his room. I mean, friends with benefits, if you will, just not sex. Sorry. And I started dating.
(36:39)
And I met someone that I fell very much in love with in 2003. His name was Ted Waitt. Ted Waitt, you may know as the founder of Gateway, the computers. And we had an amazing relationship that ended in … went on until 2010, I think. And I was with Ted from that time.
Todd Blanche (37:09):
Did you meet him through Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (37:12):
No. Well, indirectly, I suppose you could say so. No, they'd never met. I was at a dinner where I met Ted, but it wasn't … I was with President Clinton. President Clinton was my friend, not Epstein's friend. And Epstein had flown him and there was a dinner and Ted came to the dinner. So I guess, indirectly, through Mr. Epstein, because it was with his plane, but I'd have been there anyway without him. I had … was not the-
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Was Epstein on the plane when you guys flew?
Ghislaine Maxwell (37:48):
On that trip, yes. Well, yes. They … that, yes.
Todd Blanche (37:55):
So when you say the dinner was where?
Ghislaine Maxwell (38:02):
Hong Kong.
Todd Blanche (38:04):
Okay. And you had flown over with … So who was on the plane for that trip? I don't mean everybody. When you said, so Mr. Epstein was on the plane?
Ghislaine Maxwell (38:10):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (38:11):
You were on the plane?
Ghislaine Maxwell (38:12):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (38:14):
Who else that you can remember? I'm not. You only know what you remember.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Was President Clinton on the plane?
Ghislaine Maxwell (38:22):
Clinton, he would've had his guy, Doug Vance, maybe Jason Cooper, maybe the two.
Todd Blanche (38:38):
So how do you meet … So why did you say that's when you met him and that you met him through Clinton?
Ghislaine Maxwell (38:41):
Well, it was a … I don't think Ted would've been there had it not been a … It was a President Clinton dinner and Ted came to be with President Clinton.
Todd Blanche (38:48):
I see.
Ghislaine Maxwell (38:50):
Not to be with Mr. Epstein. Does that make sense?
Todd Blanche (38:52):
Yes.
Ghislaine Maxwell (38:53):
That's why I say that.
Todd Blanche (38:54):
Okay. So in the time that you're dating that you're with him to 2009, are you still working for Mr. Epstein during that time?
Ghislaine Maxwell (39:05):
So it'd be true to say that Jeffrey tried very hard, Mr. Epstein tried very hard to keep me working for him because, I mean, this is a complex operation. I'm not talking about anything, just the sheer size of the projects. I'm talking the construction projects, the houses, the staff. It's a really significant job. And I ran all the properties, the staff in the property, the management of the properties that, and all the construction. And we're talking tens of millions of dollars for the island alone. I can't remember what the budget was for the construction on any given year. It's gone. But these are very significant projects. And so that was what I did. And I managed the budgets. Well, I didn't manage the budgets. I oversaw the budgets. So I would just make sure that if you said you bought an air conditioning plant, I saw an air conditioning plant and I could call the island manager, "Did you receive the Carrier," whatever.
Todd Blanche (40:18):
When did Mr. Epstein purchase the island?
Ghislaine Maxwell (40:22):
I want to say '96 or '97, something like that.
Todd Blanche (40:26):
Okay. So we're going to come back and spend more time on the money with respect to Mr. Epstein and his wealth. But just so we can finish this, so in 2009 you end your relationship with Ted?
Ghislaine Maxwell (40:39):
2009, 2010.
Todd Blanche (40:39):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (40:39):
I can't remember if it was '10. I don't remember.
Todd Blanche (40:44):
Okay. So in that time period. What happens next as far as your relationship with Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (40:48):
I don't have one with him.
Todd Blanche (40:51):
You don't have one with him like you don't see him or it's just a different relationship?
Ghislaine Maxwell (40:56):
I did see … I maybe saw him once or twice, maybe even three times. I certainly went to his house once, for sure, maybe twice. But I was not seeing him. The only time that I was in touch with him was when the things happened. Like things, I mean, in the press that affected me or when the CVRA case was filed and there was like rubbish that went out, 'cause I needed information. 'Cause I didn't know anything about what was happening and I needed his help. A, to … Well, that doesn't sound right. Let me rephrase that. I don't mean his help. I meant to have answers, so that I had an ability to defend myself, that's what I'm talking about. I'm not talking any-
Todd Blanche (41:46):
So when does that relationship change? So you're working. You talked about when the physical relationship stopped and then you're still working for him, or with him managing his properties and serving as a general manager. You then start your own relationship with another individual, with Ted, from 2003 until 2009 or '10. At what point in that whole period is there more of a break where you're no longer acting as his general manager?
Ghislaine Maxwell (42:14):
So I wanted to have a full break when I started dating Ted. And he was clever. I suppose it would be true to say that I sort of viewed Mr. Epstein, at that point, as sort of family, if you will, someone I could rely on. And I should have had more confidence in myself. I can see that now. But at the time, given everything that had happened in my life, I thought that it would, and I saw how he was with other people like Eva, who seemed to be very comfortable with him, and I thought this would be … and he always said, I was like family. So he worked hard to maintain a relationship with me. He was generous with me. He let me use the plane, for instance, which was very generous. He would check in with my mum. He did things that were meaningful to me in that time.
(43:17)
And then, it may still not have worked, but that his mother, Paula, had been in a very serious car crash. And she had become sort of like a surrogate mother for me sort of because my mum wasn't there. I could look after her the way that I would … Sorry.
Todd Blanche (43:48):
It's all right.
Ghislaine Maxwell (43:49):
The way that I would've liked to look after my own mum. So I became very close to his mother. And she had been in a car crash, and in 2004, I believe, it may have been 5, I don't recall exactly, her health took a serious decline. And Epstein called me and asked me if I could look after her. And by looking after her that meant organizing her doctors, making sure she had new clothes, making sure her house was clean.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Where was she?
Ghislaine Maxwell (44:31):
She lived in a retirement establishment outside of Palm Beach, outside of it's West Palm. I was going to say something like the Golden Girls, but it's not called that. I just don't remember what it's called. But it was an old age. It was a retirement home, if you will.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Todd, I don't know, we've been going for maybe about an hour now. Do you think … Is this a good time to-
Todd Blanche (44:54):
Yeah, yeah. So we'll take a break.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
All right, so we're going to take a break. The time is 10: 56.
(45:07)
We're continuing the proffer interview with Ms. Maxwell. The time is 11:07 AM on Thursday, July 24.
Todd Blanche (45:16):
All right. So just picking up where we just stopped. So you have basically a break. Well, not a break, that's the wrong word, but your relationship with Mr. Maxwell, professional and other changes in 2003, '04?
Ghislaine Maxwell (45:34):
Yeah. I mean, and over the time that I stay with Ted, the more time I'm with Ted, the more distance I have with him. And then when the arrest … Well, let's go back. Whatever happened in 2005 and he became arrested in 2006.
Todd Blanche (45:52):
So when he's charged and arrested in what we'll call the Florida Investigations, that's what you're talking about?
Ghislaine Maxwell (46:00):
I am.
Todd Blanche (46:00):
Okay. Go ahead.
Ghislaine Maxwell (46:01):
So I had … I was not in … Well.
Todd Blanche (46:07):
Well, were you part of that investigation?
Ghislaine Maxwell (46:09):
Absolutely not.
Todd Blanche (46:09):
Did law enforcement ever talk to you as part of that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (46:12):
No.
Todd Blanche (46:13):
The feds never talked to you?
Ghislaine Maxwell (46:15):
No.
Todd Blanche (46:15):
The FBI never talked to you?
Ghislaine Maxwell (46:16):
No.
Todd Blanche (46:16):
Do you know-
Ghislaine Maxwell (46:16):
I never even received a phone call.
Todd Blanche (46:20):
So you didn't receive a subpoena?
Ghislaine Maxwell (46:21):
No.
Todd Blanche (46:22):
Did the state law enforcement ever reach out to you?
Ghislaine Maxwell (46:24):
No.
Todd Blanche (46:25):
As far as you know, did the government either state or federal subpoena your bank records or subpoena anything from your financial life during that time? During that time?
Ghislaine Maxwell (46:39):
Not as far as I'm aware. Now, if they did, I don't know it, and I have no idea about that, to be honest. But I'm not aware of it and I would say no. But maybe you guys do things that I don't know.
Todd Blanche (46:51):
So how did you learn of that case? When Mr. Epstein was arrested? Or did you know that something was happening before then?
Ghislaine Maxwell (46:57):
The first thing I knew was he had told me he was deciding to redecorate the house in Palm Beach. It didn't surprise me. It was like a rolling situation.
Todd Blanche (47:12):
By that time, are you doing, like he tells you because he wants your help? Or had your relationship changed by this time where you were no longer kind of acting as his general manager?
Ghislaine Maxwell (47:21):
No, I was still around. I wasn't gone. I was with Ted. I was traveling. I wasn't daily. If you'd asked me where he was in any given time, I'm not sure I would've known then. I felt like, I suppose the relationship moved into sort of like a long-term friend, family, like I felt he had with Eva, if I'm honest.
Todd Blanche (47:52):
Okay. So he says to you, he's going to redecorate the Palm Beach house.
Ghislaine Maxwell (47:56):
He asked me specifically which decorator he thinks he should use 'cause I had a lot of contacts with decorators and he was not very good with people. He was useless at maintaining relationships with people who worked for him. I'm not. Anyway, so I recommended, I think I recommended, I can't be 100% sure 'cause it's been a long time. But I think I recommended Mark Zeff at that time.
Todd Blanche (48:30):
Who?
Ghislaine Maxwell (48:31):
Mark Zeff.
Todd Blanche (48:31):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (48:35):
I believe. And I don't know why. I don't remember. That's all lost to time. But anyway, at some point I think his mother had died now. I can't remember the timing of all of that either, but I ended up in Palm Beach. And he had asked me to come and look at the swatches or whatever he was doing 'cause they had laid it all out over the house and various things. And I think he'd asked for my opinion. That's my memory of this.
(49:02)
It may also be that Ted and I were going to Palm Beach 'cause Ted had a golf match or something. There was a reason I was in Palm Beach. It wasn't solely … Maybe that's not true either. I don't know.
Todd Blanche (49:15):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (49:15):
Sometimes I went to Palm Beach 'cause Ted was there. I don't know if that's part of that time or not. Or Ted went there and left me. I don't know. Something. Anyway, I was there. No, that's not how that went either. No.
(49:29)
Anyway, at some point in that time, I saw all the swatches at some point in 2005, I think that was, and then I believe, I don't remember. I think I got a phone call actually. I wasn't in Palm Beach. I think I got a phone call that there was police at his house or something. There was a-
Todd Blanche (49:50):
And would you have gotten a phone call from him or you think you were just told by somebody that knew that it had happened or don't even remember?
Ghislaine Maxwell (49:56):
Definitely not him.
Todd Blanche (49:56):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (49:58):
I think it would've been the houseman.
Todd Blanche (49:59):
So when that happens, whenever it was, that's kind of the first time you know that Mr. Epstein is being investigated for …
Ghislaine Maxwell (50:09):
I didn't even know what. I didn't even understand.
Todd Blanche (50:09):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (50:12):
I didn't have a context for that. It was … I didn't even know. I didn't know. I'm not sure even what I thought. I was like, "That's weird."
Todd Blanche (50:21):
After you find out about it, what happens with your relationship with him?
Ghislaine Maxwell (50:28):
I asked him. I asked him what was going on and he said, " Not to worry, nothing, it's nothing, taking care. Don't worry about it." [inaudible 00:50:36] And then it all went quiet. He didn't say. He didn't share. I wasn't part of it at all. I was off with Ted and I really just-
Todd Blanche (50:44):
But did he tell you … Well, why don't we come back to more specifics around that time period in a few minutes? I want to just finish this opening part.
(50:53)
So that case goes on. Ultimately it ends. What was your relationship like with him during that case? When he goes, when he is sentenced?
Ghislaine Maxwell (51:10):
He told me. He said, "Listen, I'm going to jail." I was like, "Okay." And he goes, "I'd like you to stay on board to manage the properties, the animals, this and that, and just stay put and I'll continue to pay you in case there's any emergency. I don't trust anyone." And I was like, "Okay."
Todd Blanche (51:30):
Well, when you said continue to pay you, has he-
Ghislaine Maxwell (51:33):
He'd never stopped paying me.
Todd Blanche (51:34):
He never stopped paying. So even when your relationship changes, you're getting, does the amount increase from the 25,000 or so a year from the beginning? How much are you getting paid yearly?
Ghislaine Maxwell (51:43):
I think it ended at the time, well, we had different payment structures and I'm happy to explain how that works. But I think salary-wise, if I'm right, it ended at around a quarter of a million a year.
Todd Blanche (51:52):
How much?
Ghislaine Maxwell (51:53):
Quarter of a million, 250,000.
Todd Blanche (51:53):
And when did it end? When was that that it stopped?
Ghislaine Maxwell (51:56):
2008 or 9. 9. When did he come out of jail? Whenever he came out of jail.
Todd Blanche (52:06):
Okay. And over the years, it increased from what you said was you thought about 25,000 to 250,000. That's between '90, early '90s until 2009 or '10 whenever he stopped. Is that right?
Ghislaine Maxwell (52:21):
Yes. Yes.
Todd Blanche (52:21):
And how were you paid?
Ghislaine Maxwell (52:23):
W2.
Todd Blanche (52:24):
W2. From what company or do you …
Ghislaine Maxwell (52:30):
He just moved me around over to this company there. I didn't care. And I didn't care and I didn't think, I didn't understand any rhyme or reason and it doesn't, I just, whatever.
Todd Blanche (52:42):
Okay.
(52:42)
So when he's going to go to jail, he says, "Can you stay around and manage everything?"
Ghislaine Maxwell (52:46):
Yeah.
Todd Blanche (52:46):
And do you do that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (52:47):
I do.
Todd Blanche (52:49):
Okay.
(52:49)
And then we'll come back to that-
Ghislaine Maxwell (52:51):
Well, not manage everything, no, I mean there are other people at this point. My specific role then was very, very diminished. I reviewed the bill structure that came from the constructions that were still made in the island, and wherever else I was going, Paris, at this point, because I speak French, I'm fluent in French. And also my relationship with the French decorator was critical to him. And the French component part of that aspect was really vital. And so you'd have had to find someone who was … Well actually, and the Spanish trilingual, you would've had to find someone who's trilingual, and find that he trusted.
Todd Blanche (53:27):
Did you …
Ghislaine Maxwell (53:28):
To not steal from him.
Todd Blanche (53:35):
So when he gets out of jail, between that time 2009 or '10 and 2019, what's your relationship like with Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (53:47):
Almost non-existent.
Todd Blanche (53:50):
Why?
Ghislaine Maxwell (53:50):
I had just moved on and I just didn't want to have anything to. I didn't want the drama. I didn't want to be associated with.
Todd Blanche (54:00):
So do you recall, when you say almost non-existent, does that mean-
Ghislaine Maxwell (54:05):
It doesn't mean it was-
Todd Blanche (54:06):
… some phone calls, some visits, some trips. What does it mean?
Ghislaine Maxwell (54:12):
I don't think there were any trips. I don't think so.
Todd Blanche (54:16):
Where were you living during that time period? Or was it-
Ghislaine Maxwell (54:18):
Which time period?
Todd Blanche (54:20):
Between 2009, '10 and 2019.
Ghislaine Maxwell (54:23):
I was back in New York.
Todd Blanche (54:28):
Okay. So you had no … You had phone calls with him on occasion?
Ghislaine Maxwell (54:33):
Yes. Well, I certainly did. Whenever there was any legal drama or any serious press attention, I always called him to try and find out what was going on.
Todd Blanche (54:42):
Okay. Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (54:44):
And I did email him at that time for those types of details. I was like, "What do I do?" I mean, I was like …
Todd Blanche (54:51):
And then when he's charged in New York federally, how did you learn about that case?
Ghislaine Maxwell (54:57):
In the press.
Todd Blanche (54:58):
And had you, as far as you know, been contacted by law enforcement before his arrest?
Ghislaine Maxwell (55:04):
No, I wasn't in an indictment.
Todd Blanche (55:07):
No, I know that. But even as a witness or asking you if you would give documents or materials?
Ghislaine Maxwell (55:16):
I had never up until when my lawyers said that, I don't even know. I had no knowledge of them being interested in me, honestly, I want to say until he had died. Now I know that my lawyers were in touch with some district of New York at some point after his address. I'm pretty sure that had to have happened, right?
Todd Blanche (55:39):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (55:40):
But my understanding is that they had not shown any interest. I know my lawyers went to see them once, I believe and …
Todd Blanche (55:48):
Went to see him meaning Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (55:50):
No, them, the Southern District of New York.
Todd Blanche (55:51):
Okay. The Southern District, New York.
Ghislaine Maxwell (55:52):
Sorry. And that they had been in touch with them, and-
Todd Blanche (55:58):
But now you're talking about after Mr. Epstein died, or are you talking about before he died?
Ghislaine Maxwell (56:04):
I think …
Todd Blanche (56:06):
If you can remember.
Ghislaine Maxwell (56:08):
It's easily verifiable. My memory is that they were in touch with him when he was arrested. I don't know if anything happened until after his death, then after that. I don't think they saw them, met with them, Southern District of New York, I'm talking about now until after he died. I know that they were in regular telephone contact with them and that my lawyers believed that they had been told that there was no interest in me and were absolutely stunned when I was arrested. Maybe stunned is too big a word, but surprised. I certainly was.
Todd Blanche (56:50):
Okay. So that was a long description of what was a very long life and that was very helpful. So I want to go back and talk more specifically now about particular areas, but that was a very helpful kind of foundation for us.
(57:07)
The first thing I want to talk about, you talked about earlier on, about Mr. Epstein's financial success. Do you know how when you first meet him, at some point you say, "I got this place for you to rent, you can't afford it," and he laughs at you and says, "Yes I can." What did you learn about his wealth and how he accumulated his money?
Ghislaine Maxwell (57:33):
I can tell you what he told me.
Todd Blanche (57:34):
Yes.
Ghislaine Maxwell (57:35):
So I know that he was hired from working at a private school whose name eludes me at this point.
Speaker 4 (57:42):
Dalton.
Ghislaine Maxwell (57:43):
Dalton. He was working at Dalton, who was a math teacher. And he met, I think it was Ace. I'm not sure. He met someone from Bear who hired him because he was very good at math. And I believe that he then worked on creating a trading of … Oh my gosh.
Todd Blanche (58:17):
Just describe it. It's okay. Go ahead.
Ghislaine Maxwell (58:21):
He came up with some new type of trading system, not a system so much, but as a vehicle, a trading vehicle.
Todd Blanche (58:29):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (58:29):
That I'm just escaping right now.
Todd Blanche (58:31):
And this is while he was working at Bear Stearns?
Ghislaine Maxwell (58:32):
At Bear Stearns, yes.
Todd Blanche (58:32):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (58:32):
And whilst-
Todd Blanche (58:37):
And was this before you met him?
Ghislaine Maxwell (58:39):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (58:39):
So this is what he told you?
Ghislaine Maxwell (58:40):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (58:41):
And what you learned?
Ghislaine Maxwell (58:41):
Yes. This is what he told me himself.
Todd Blanche (58:45):
And then eventually he starts a financial firm. Did you know that to be true or no? J Epstein & Company. You ever heard of that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (58:53):
I think … Yeah, yes. So hang on a minute. This I did not know, but this I had subsequently learned is that he had some problem or some issue at Bear Stearns and there was some disagreement. He wasn't fired because obviously he was still very friendly with Ace and with Jimmy, at least by the time I met him. But they were working with him and he ran, he had money at Bear Stearns, his money, his client's money. I'll come to that. But he started, he told me himself that he started a business where he looked for stolen money. So if somebody … Let's see. I'm trying to think of some intelligent way to say it, but I can't think of anything I've been with, not great. I'll give it to you.
(59:54)
So let's say you have El Chapo, oh God, I don't know where he comes from. But anyway, we've got El Chapo. And El Chapo's laundering money or he's working with the Sinaloa Cartel and he steals money from the Sinaloa Cartel and he moves it to wherever. So he's got stolen money from the Sinaloa, goes to it. This didn't happen. I'm just …
Todd Blanche (01:00:13):
Yeah, yeah. I understand.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:00:15):
Just coming up with something in my head. And the Sinaloa says to Epstein, "Can you track down my billion dollars that the other cartel stole from me?" And Epstein will go and find the billion dollars and will take a portion of the money that was stolen as a fee and give back the remainder. That would be on a percentage basis.
Todd Blanche (01:00:35):
No, but what you just described, which I appreciate what you said, a hypothetical-
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:00:38):
Please, that's completely hypothetical.
Todd Blanche (01:00:42):
But that would involve, so two kind of drug cartels stealing from each other. Practically speaking, he was more of a businessman, correct?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:00:55):
So here's how I think that started, is that he had a girlfriend. It was always … always to the girls. I guess there was a girl whose name will come back to me, maybe not, whilst we're here, but I don't know, maybe. There's a woman.
Todd Blanche (01:01:03):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:01:04):
There's always a woman. She was the daughter of a billionaire, for instance. And that billionaire, whatever his name was, had had some money stolen. And for some reason this woman introduced Jeffrey, and Jeffrey, I think that's how that business started. That's what I remember.
Todd Blanche (01:01:26):
And is that something he told you about or something that happened while you knew him?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:01:30):
No, something he told me before I met him.
Todd Blanche (01:01:32):
And so when you meet him and once you're part of his life in the early to mid '90s, what is he doing to make money that you see? Does he have clients? Does he have rich clients? Does he have famous clients? And how, if he does have clients, what services is he providing them?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:01:49):
He does have … Well, obviously there's the one very famous client that everybody talks about, which is Les Wexner. And that was a very important client to him. And I think it's probably helpful to describe what I imagine … not imagine, no, what I know to be true about what he managed for Les. And there's some bits that I'll be improvising.
Todd Blanche (01:02:11):
Yep.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:02:12):
I wanted just make you understand, I was not part of Epstein's business world except tangentially and obviously, so what I'm talking about is what I observed or what I overheard or what I saw within the business. But I wasn't responsible for any of the client's money or anything like that. So separate.
Todd Blanche (01:02:33):
Okay. Yeah. I understand. Go ahead.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:02:34):
So with Les, for instance, it was really all encompassing. It could go from the structure of the business. So he structured or restructured The Limited, I know that, and I'll come back to that. 'Cause I also traveled with him and Les and I was in business meetings with them on the plane when they were there. So I could observe and I could hear some of this. And whilst I'm not necessarily terribly business sophisticated, I'm sophisticated enough to be able to at least have some knowledge of what was happening.
(01:03:17)
All right, so then he restructured the business. He restructured his entire personal finances and would also handle all of the investment strategy. I don't know if it was 100%-
Todd Blanche (01:03:35):
Mr. Wexner you're saying?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:03:36):
Sorry. Yes. This is all Wexner I'm talking about now. So let's say you had a billion dollars to invest. So you would, in people's normal investment portfolios, you'd have some T-bonds and this and that, but Epstein's strategies would be much more sophisticated than that.
Todd Blanche (01:03:57):
And so just staying with Mr. Wexner, from what you heard or saw, is Mr. Epstein paid by him in percentages? So there would be a deal and he would be paid? Or did you understand it to be like a flat fee? Was he a business partner? How did you understand him to be paid?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:04:17):
I think it was more a la carte. So let's say this is a conversation, and actually Epstein told me, or illustrated for me, said if I saved someone $5 billion, he would take a flat percentage of that $5 billion. He wouldn't have 5 billion back, and he would take-
Todd Blanche (01:04:35):
When you say you think that, is that because you heard him talking about that or you …
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:04:39):
It'd be a combination of both. Certainly he told me that and I heard him talk to people like that. I couldn't … Sorry.
Todd Blanche (01:04:47):
No, no, go ahead.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:04:47):
No.
Todd Blanche (01:04:50):
Did Mr. Wexner gift a property in New York to Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:04:54):
So we're talking about 71st Street. So I don't know what the business deal was 'cause again, I'm not part of his business thing, but I think what happened would be that let's say Les owed him theoretically for his services 100 million or whatever it was. He could have traded that against the property.
Todd Blanche (01:05:17):
But do you know that that happened? Or do you remember whether there was conversations about that? Or are you just thinking that could be one way that it happened?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:05:27):
I'm not sure. And I'm not trying to be … I just don't remember if that's something I know or if that's something that I remember or if it's something that I have subsequently known. I believe that to be what happened. But I don't want to tell you that I have. Does that make sense?
Todd Blanche (01:05:40):
Did Mr. Wexner and Mr. Epstein, are you aware of their falling out that they ultimately had?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:05:46):
I think … I wasn't there and I don't know how it happened. I only know what Les has said in the press.
Todd Blanche (01:05:57):
So you only know about the falling out or whatever you want to call it, from what you've kind of read, not from any first-hand knowledge. You weren't there. You weren't part of that.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:06:07):
Correct.
Todd Blanche (01:06:11):
Do you know somebody named Steven Hoffenberg?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:06:18):
Only from the press.
Todd Blanche (01:06:20):
Okay. And so you don't know anything about whatever business relationship they may have had, Mr. Epstein …
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:06:25):
Never spoke about him, never mentioned it. I only learned about that, whatever that is. I don't even know what the truth is of that story from the press.
Todd Blanche (01:06:36):
How about Leon Black?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:06:38):
Oh, I did meet Leon. I do know Leon.
Todd Blanche (01:06:41):
When do you remember, and again, I know we're talking about apparently a long time ago, but do you remember appropriately when you met him?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:06:53):
I could have met Leon … Not really. So I might might've met him nothing to do because Leon Black is very good friends with other friends of mine. I would've met him. When I say socially, I might've met him. How Leon and Epstein became really good friends, I'm not sure.
Todd Blanche (01:07:12):
But not through you as far as you recall?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:07:14):
Not through me as far as I know, no. I'm sure of that, not through me.
Todd Blanche (01:07:20):
Do you know what kind of work Mr. Epstein was doing for Mr. Black over the years?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:07:25):
Same as what he did for Wexner.
Todd Blanche (01:07:29):
So we just talked about two individuals, and again, I know we're talking about maybe a 15-year time period or even longer. How many clients like that did Mr. Epstein have?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:07:42):
But why don't I just give you the names that I remember and that's-
Todd Blanche (01:07:45):
Say it again.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:07:46):
Why won't I just give you the names? Do you want the names?
Todd Blanche (01:07:48):
No, sure, go ahead.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:07:51):
Elizabeth Johnson, Johnson & Johnson.
Todd Blanche (01:07:56):
As far as you know, when did the relationship between Ms. Johnson and Mr. Epstein
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:08:00):
… '90s. 90… I don't… '95? '96? 90's.
Todd Blanche (01:08:08):
So during the time period?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:08:09):
Yes. We're talking '90s. We're talking when I was there. When I was around.
Todd Blanche (01:08:12):
How did the relationship start?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:08:15):
I don't know how he became that friendly boy. He ended up managing her money. I wasn't there. I really had a separate life. We really had separate lives except where they [inaudible 01:08:27].
Todd Blanche (01:08:27):
But it wasn't from-
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:08:29):
It wasn't me.
Todd Blanche (01:08:30):
From you?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:08:30):
No, it was not.
Todd Blanche (01:08:32):
Okay. And what's your understanding of what Mr. Upton did for Ms. Johnson?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:08:36):
Same as what he did for Wexner. And it went down in tiny details. So I remember, this I remember, this is an actual memory that he would make the contracts for the maids, for the people who worked in their homes.
Todd Blanche (01:08:50):
So he would assist his clients at times, you're saying, with even small things like contractual relationship with-
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:08:56):
He said no detail was too small because everything that affected how they lived and how they managed their life was something that he felt he was, if they wanted, would be responsible for, to make sure that the contract… So that if you had to fire someone, they wouldn't come back and sue you or that sort of…
Todd Blanche (01:09:18):
Okay. So Mr. Black, Mr. Werner, Ms. Johnson and who else?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:09:23):
[inaudible 01:09:23] what's the name of the woman from Ohio?
Speaker 5 (01:09:28):
[inaudible 01:09:34].
Todd Blanche (01:09:35):
Is there someone named Jes Staley?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:09:36):
Yeah, I do know Jes.
Todd Blanche (01:09:37):
Who's that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:09:39):
He was at Morgan Stanley. And at Barclays.
Todd Blanche (01:09:43):
Do you know whether he and Mr. Upton had a relationship?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:09:46):
Well, not a physical one.
Todd Blanche (01:09:49):
Well, I didn't suggest-
Speaker 5 (01:09:50):
Business one.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:09:51):
Sorry.
Todd Blanche (01:09:52):
No, I'm saying a relationship in the broadest sense of the word, business? Personal?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:09:56):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (01:09:56):
Both.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:09:57):
Yes. Both.
Todd Blanche (01:09:58):
Okay. And do you know when they met?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:10:01):
No. No. I don't know when they met, but you can time it. Well, I don't know that you can. No, I don't know.
Todd Blanche (01:10:15):
But what was the nature of their relationship as far as you know?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:10:18):
I think they were friends and I think that they were business partners. Well, partner's too strong a word, but they did business together.
Todd Blanche (01:10:25):
So again, I want stay focused on the time where you were the most involved in his life. So-
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:10:30):
The '90's.
Todd Blanche (01:10:31):
The early '90's through early '2000's.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:10:32):
The beginning of the 2000's. Yes.
Todd Blanche (01:10:38):
So we talked about four people-
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:10:40):
There's more.
Todd Blanche (01:10:40):
Were there more? Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:10:40):
Oh, yes, there were more. There was a lady whose name, I've just can't… Can I get my book? Maybe I wrote them down.
Todd Blanche (01:10:48):
Sure.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:11:11):
Epstein wouldn't really let me meet his clients.
Todd Blanche (01:11:14):
What book are you… What is that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:11:16):
I'd made some notes for the meeting.
Todd Blanche (01:11:16):
Okay, great. Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:11:18):
Is that all right?
Todd Blanche (01:11:18):
No, that's fine. I just was curious what we're looking at.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:11:20):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 5 (01:11:21):
Not the birthday book.
Todd Blanche (01:11:22):
It's not the birthday book.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:11:23):
No, we're going to come to that, I'm sure.
Todd Blanche (01:11:25):
Yeah.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:11:25):
All right. I wrote down some things because I tried to make, I just want you to understand, my memory's not as good as it was because when I was in Brooklyn, I was in the shoe for almost two years and I was on suicide watch for almost two years, which meant that they woke me up every 15 minutes for the entire time. And it really did affect my ability to…
Todd Blanche (01:11:49):
I understand.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:11:51):
Okay. So I'm not-
Todd Blanche (01:11:52):
You've taken some notes [inaudible 01:11:55]-
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:11:54):
I just made some names in advance.
Todd Blanche (01:11:56):
Yeah, okay. So, go ahead.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:11:57):
And you're happy to look at them as well.
Todd Blanche (01:11:58):
No, go ahead. Go ahead.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:12:00):
Okay. Well, funny [inaudible 01:12:02] first two names. One is Wexner, two is Staley. Three is Leon Black.
Todd Blanche (01:12:07):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:12:07):
Glenn Dubin was a client.
Todd Blanche (01:12:09):
Who's that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:12:10):
Eva Dubin's husband.
Todd Blanche (01:12:12):
Okay. What was their… I mean, Do you know about when that relationship started?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:12:19):
Well, it wouldn't have been before they got married, for sure. So if we were going to start, you're going to date that from wherever that was. And then Epstein was heavily involved with Highbridge Capital and the financing or selling of Highbridge to J.P. Morgan.
Todd Blanche (01:12:37):
Okay. Go ahead. [inaudible 01:12:41] Dubin. Yeah.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:12:45):
Okay. You're only looking for clients, so… All right. There's a woman, well, there's a woman in Ohio. I just can't think of her name, but it will, I tried to remember it yesterday and I can't.
Speaker 5 (01:13:02):
So this is a good thing. As you think of things, write it down, and if they have any other names, they'll ask you, but don't force it out. So you'll have time to think about this, especially today, this afternoon, overnight, because we'll probably meet tomorrow.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:13:17):
But you can find them. I mean, if you basically find a billionaire female.
Todd Blanche (01:13:20):
So the woman in Ohio who's wealthy that you worked with?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:13:22):
Well, you can identify her yourself because she had the largest Klein painting. That was huge. So you can find her because it'll be in the museum.
Todd Blanche (01:13:30):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:13:31):
So that's her.
Todd Blanche (01:13:32):
And so that was one of Mr. Epstein's clients?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:13:34):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (01:13:34):
She was one of Mr. Epstein's clients as well?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:13:36):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (01:13:37):
Okay. Who else?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:13:41):
Well, I think that there was other people that he would assist. I know that he helped Lynne Forrester, who became Linda Rothschild. She'll deny it and she has, but she can't.
Todd Blanche (01:13:56):
And when you say help, the same help in business or what help?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:14:00):
I have no idea what he did for her. I know he helped her financially. Her husband was the controller of New York. But again, I'm not inside this business, but he would've… His notion that he blackmailed men, we wouldn't have to go there, that he wasn't a businessman and that everything he did was a fraud or a funk or whatever. I don't believe that to be true.
Todd Blanche (01:14:23):
Why?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:14:24):
Sorry?
Todd Blanche (01:14:26):
So you say you don't believe it to be true, but show me why you think that. I know you've been talking about it, that he was a very conscientious, he was very good at math. He paid a lot of attention to his clients. But yes, you're right. There's allegations of blackmail or also that there was some level of fraud involved in what he did. And you don't believe it. Why do you say that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:14:45):
Well, let me rephrase that. If there was fraud, I never saw it. What I saw or what I felt when… I ran that office. I mean ran. I was responsible for the staff. People worked, there were lawyers, there were accountants. I never heard him… I never felt anything… Icky.
Speaker 5 (01:15:13):
Did you ever see him blackmail a client?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:15:17):
No.
Speaker 5 (01:15:17):
Did you ever see him blackmail a friend or an acquaintance?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:15:25):
Never.
Speaker 5 (01:15:25):
Okay.
Todd Blanche (01:15:25):
Well, so, I think when folks talk about blackmail, and we can talk about… Sorry about that. We can talk about that now. There are a lot of allegations about him, which we should talk about, and we can do that now. And the fact that he abused young women.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:15:41):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (01:15:42):
Full stop. Okay. Which means the way that I'm defining abuse, as has been widely reported, is that he would cause young women in high school to be recruited to come to his house and give him massages. And as part of that, he would sexually abuse them. Okay?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:16:04):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (01:16:05):
So I want to talk about that. But as it relates to blackmail, the question is whether you're aware of any time that any of the individuals we're talking about, and we'll talk about others, received massages from women who were under 18 or may have been under 18, and that whether there was any sexual assaults or sexual contact between any of these people and those masseuses, which would've allowed then Mr. Epstein, potentially to blackmail them and say, you have to continue to work with me, or you have to give me money, or else I'm going to tell the world that you did this.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:16:49):
Right. I think this is a really good place to start with how this story began.
Todd Blanche (01:16:54):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:16:56):
So let's assume that that premise is correct, that he was doing that and he was going to tell everybody, going to say, oh, you know, had inappropriate relations with an underage girl. If you don't have video or photographic evidence, I'm not sure that even the FBI would take that. Well, maybe today, but certainly, not back then, would take that seriously. So you have to have something to say, "Hey, look, I've got this video of you doing terrible things and you need to…" So I built those houses, many of them. I decorated those houses, I put the electricians in for the wiring. I never wired nor saw a single house that had any type of inappropriate, let's say, video surveillance. And I'll define that for you. Inappropriate surveillance would mean in a bathroom, in a bedroom, in any private area of a home-
Todd Blanche (01:18:05):
In a room where there were massages given?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:18:08):
Inappropriate. I would say I would define appropriate surveillance to be the front door of a house, or potentially as in 71st street, the physical plant. Anywhere else would be grotesque.
Todd Blanche (01:18:28):
So, I just want to come back to… I know I'm just hopefully staying the obvious, but when you say the houses, you're talking about his New York brownstone?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:18:40):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (01:18:40):
You're talking about the island in the Caribbean?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:18:45):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (01:18:45):
You're talking about the residence in Palm Beach?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:18:48):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (01:18:48):
And you're talking about the ranch in New Mexico?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:18:51):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (01:18:51):
Anywhere else?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:18:52):
Paris.
Todd Blanche (01:18:53):
And in Paris and so-
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:18:55):
And the plane. I saw some ridiculous-
Todd Blanche (01:18:57):
And the plane.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:18:57):
With the plane, that was what mine doing. Yes. I didn't hire any electrician on the plane.
Todd Blanche (01:19:01):
So unequivocally, from what you know, and you only know what you know.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:19:06):
I only know what I know.
Todd Blanche (01:19:07):
But from what you know, do not believe a camera exists or a video camera or a camera that takes pictures inside any of his residences.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:19:20):
Correct.
Todd Blanche (01:19:21):
So even the appropriate cameras that you just talked about, which would be exterior security cameras, did you know whether there was any cameras that you're aware of inside any of the locations?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:19:33):
Never. With one exception.
Todd Blanche (01:19:35):
Okay. What's the exception?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:19:36):
The exception is Palm Beach.
Todd Blanche (01:19:38):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:19:39):
And the reason, so in Palm Beach, Epstein was having money stolen. He noticed money was being stolen from his briefcase. Call it his briefcase. And he called in the Palm Beach police, and they, the Palm Beach police, installed cameras on where he kept his briefcase.
Todd Blanche (01:20:03):
Where was that? Do you remember?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:20:05):
At his desk in… So the house on the ground floor was… He had a desk in a corner. There was that camera. I think there was another camera. I think there were two or maybe three cameras, I believe only on the ground floor, wherever he may have had… Maybe he had another office in the cabana. There may have been a camera there.
Todd Blanche (01:20:27):
When was this? I'm not looking for an exact date, but about what time period are you thinking about when you say this?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:20:35):
2003. I think I can date it for you precisely, actually. 2003, I'm pretty firm on that date. And I can be firm because John Alessi, the butler was fired in the end of 2002, and he was the thief.
Todd Blanche (01:20:51):
So aside from law enforcement installing a camera to try to catch somebody stealing money from Mr. Epstein, you're not aware of any cameras at the island? No? Sorry, just so we record.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:21:09):
Oh, sorry. Sorry.
Todd Blanche (01:21:10):
That's okay. You were nodding your head no. So what about-
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:21:15):
No cameras anywhere outside of possibly things that I, myself, I would consider normal. So the garage gate, something like that. A front door.
Todd Blanche (01:21:26):
Outside, like security cameras.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:21:27):
Security cameras. And there were cameras inside in the 71st Street that did the plant, the physical plant because it was a commercial building. So you had the whole, that's a real thing there. It's a commercial building. And there was one camera on the front door, internal from the internal did the front door, as I recall. But there were no other cameras inside the house.
Todd Blanche (01:21:52):
How about photographs? Did you ever observe Mr. Epstein, or anybody around him take pictures of anybody in compromising positions with women or with anybody?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:22:07):
No.
Todd Blanche (01:22:08):
Did you ever hear, when you were present for conversations that Mr. Epstein was having or others were having, anybody accuse him of blackmailing them or of trying to extort them because of something Mr. Epstein knew?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:22:24):
No.
Todd Blanche (01:22:30):
And in the discovery you got in the New York case, okay?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:22:36):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (01:22:38):
And in the civil cases that you've been part of associated with Mr. Epstein, have you ever been given or ever been told that video exists, like what we're talking about or photos were taken that were compromising?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:22:56):
So in both of those, I never received no pictures or anything from the civil case. But in the criminal case, I received videos of Epstein talking to women and stuff like that. I did get those. I also saw binders, photographs of women [inaudible 01:23:18]. I never saw any… Well, I don't know. don't know how old some of these women were. There were definitely some of the victims from Palm Beach that photographed them without clothing.
Todd Blanche (01:23:29):
In those photographs, the victims that were photographed, were there any of the people you've talked about, were there men with the victims or were they just photographs of the victims?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:23:44):
There was no men with these pictures. There was no client of his with those pictures. They would be stand-alone. For want of a better word, like modeling shots if you were… I don't know.
Speaker 5 (01:24:03):
Pictures that Epstein had with the girls, but not Epstein with the clients and the girls.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:24:07):
Correct.
Todd Blanche (01:24:10):
I understand you said you got those in the discovery. Did you know pictures like that existed? So right now, I'm talking about the photographs of victims or photographs of women that Mr. Epstein had on his computer or wherever he had them. Did you know that those photos existed before you got them in discovery?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:24:35):
Some of them, absolutely, because they were in his house. Some of these pictures were on his credenza or whatever. Some pictures I've simply never seen before. I'd never seen some of them. Some of them I had, some of them I hadn't.
Todd Blanche (01:24:56):
So, you're right and I accept that having video or photographs of somebody famous or powerful in a compromising position would be good blackmail. Putting aside what you've said about the fact that you don't know of any existence of those, did you observe over the years, the folks we're talking about or others, which we can talk about getting massages from young women?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:25:27):
So I think it's really helpful to understand a few things that has been missed in this whole mishegas.
Speaker 5 (01:25:38):
That's a technical term.
Todd Blanche (01:25:41):
I'll look it up later. Go ahead.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:25:46):
I've thought about this obviously a lot, and I've given… So this is some benefit of what I saw and some benefit of what I now think. So just for clarity's sake. I just want to say for the record that I do believe that Epstein did a lot of, not all, but some of what he's accused of. And I'm not here to defend him in any respect, I don't want to. And I don't think he requires, nor deserves any type of protection or for me in any way to sugarcoat what he did or didn't do. So there's that.
(01:26:24)
However, the man I met and the man he became, I believe that there is a progression. And I don't think that the man I met is the man that he became. I believe he became that man over a period of time. Now, we can discuss anything you want and I'll tell you everything I know, but I think somebody who has an interest, however you define that, in underage people is obviously someone who is unwell. But I don't think that you wake up one day and you start doing what he's accused of. I think this is something that you develop or you progress to, I think.
Speaker 5 (01:27:21):
Before you get into all that, let's answer the top line question and then get into it.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:27:26):
Okay. The top line question is?
Speaker 5 (01:27:28):
Did you ever see any of these people with underage women?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:27:31):
No. No. So the reason I'm saying that is not to avoid that question, but it's because by the time, we were talking in the '90's, I don't think he was there. That description, I think that this what you are talking about is a later version.
Todd Blanche (01:27:48):
Yeah.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:27:49):
Is that?
Todd Blanche (01:27:50):
No, I understand that and I do want talk. I'm not-
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:27:52):
So it's just I think you need to separate the periods of time.
Todd Blanche (01:27:56):
Sure.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:27:56):
Because one of the things that was definitely missing in my trial and definitely missing from the narrative is this notion, everything happened and he was always… No, I don't believe that to be true.
Todd Blanche (01:28:07):
So that's fine. And I do want to talk about that. I'm not pushing that away, I'm just putting it aside for a moment. What Mr. Epstein did, and frankly, what you did or are accused of doing is one thing that we will talk about. But right now, what I want to understand is whether one of the ways that Mr. Epstein befriended his clients or took care of them, or some would say blackmailed them, was by encouraging them to interact with women underage or not.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:28:46):
So I think in the '90's he may have encouraged them, but these were people who were in their 20's or 30s.
Todd Blanche (01:28:51):
So I understand.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:28:54):
So he would have a masseuse, right? And he did, male and female by way in the '90's. It's never been discussed, both in yoga and everything, there were men as well as women. And so if he would travel, and I can show them to you, I highlighted them on the flight record. So you could see that there really were men that were also there. He would say, "Would you like to do yoga with Tito or would you like a massage with this one?" But they would be in their late 20s and professional masseuses.
Todd Blanche (01:29:22):
So-
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:29:23):
So, I think there's a distinction.
Todd Blanche (01:29:25):
And I want to talk about actual individuals here. And I understand the distinction between somebody who's an adult and someone who's underage. But even with somebody who's an adult, did you know Mr. Epstein to encourage folks to do that? Whether it's a client or somebody else?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:29:43):
I certainly witnessed him. So if he was staying with him and you had a massage that he would often travel with a masseuse, he would say, "Hey, would you like a massage?" And he did do that, yes.
Todd Blanche (01:29:54):
But would you or him or anybody else follow up with the masseuse afterwards to find out if there was any inappropriate sexual contact?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:30:02):
I never did. No.
Todd Blanche (01:30:03):
So meaning, and then coming back to the blackmail issue, there's nothing wrong with getting a massage. Of course not. Especially if somebody's obviously an adult masseuse, I'm not quibbling with that. But my question is that there's a lot of accusations that one of the way, I'm sorry, Mr. Epstein was successful, was through this idea of blackmail.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:30:23):
I never-
Todd Blanche (01:30:24):
And yes, young women is a crime, children is a crime, but even women over the age of 18, if Mr. Epstein encouraged these men or whomever to get massages and have inappropriate sexual contact with the masseuses, that's a separate issue. Maybe slightly nuanced, but did you ever know him to do that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:30:47):
No. I never did that absolutely myself. I never heard him ask someone. I never heard that. In the entire time I was with him or friends with him or had anyone, no one ever reported to me or came to me and said that anything inappropriate happened or was upset by, I never saw a tear. I never saw, ever any of that.
Todd Blanche (01:31:09):
And when you say no one reported to me, meaning like the masseuses or any of the house staff-
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:31:15):
Never. Never.
Speaker 5 (01:31:15):
Or the clients.
Todd Blanche (01:31:16):
Or the clients themselves?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:31:24):
Never.
Todd Blanche (01:31:26):
Okay. So let's, again, I want to stay… And coming back now to what you were talking about a moment ago with Mr. Epstein's kind of progression or getting worse, just staying within the '90's, what role did you have or what did you observe, which are two different issues, but both important, with respect to recruiting masseuses to come to either, I guess Palm Beach or to travel or eventually, New Mexico. What role did you have in that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:31:57):
He asked me to find masseuses for him.
Todd Blanche (01:31:59):
Say it again.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:31:59):
He asked me if I could find him masseuses.
Todd Blanche (01:32:01):
Okay. Like you said, you were as general manager as part of all your duties, that was one of them?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:32:07):
And I did do that. So the first person I believe, that I introduced him to as a masseuse was somebody called… She was, I don't know, mid, late 20s, professional masseuse.
Todd Blanche (01:32:23):
Was this something that happened early on in your relationship? And again, I know we're talking about the '90's, but are we talking about early '90's or is this later on?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:32:31):
So in terms of massage, I had a lot of injuries, but I do a lot of dangerous sports and have had multiple serious accidents and walk without any lameness because of physical therapy and massage. That to me is a very, it's medicinal for me. So Epstein, whatever his massage situation, whatever, he loved massage. And if I met somebody who I thought was a good masseuse or masseur, I introduced them. Because I got them and he asked me if I did, and I said yes. And I'm pretty sure that would've… Well, I don't remember '93, '92 from the beginning.
Todd Blanche (01:33:26):
Okay. So, go ahead. So then what happens over the next, there's a ton of writing and a ton of there, I guess, testimony as well, but also public reporting about how the recruiting was a very aggressive effort that you were a part of, that he was a part of, and others, to try to find more and more masseuses. Is that true? And what role did you have in that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:33:53):
That is partially true? So it is true that I found masseuses and he became more consistent. He knew all the time. He got bored, so he would be bored with that masseuse and he would say, "Find me a new masseuse." [inaudible 01:34:12]. I am the entire opposite. If I find someone that I like, I stay with them. I'm like, "I don't want new." He would drive for new. So that is true. And in my effort to find them, I would go to massage spas, like legitimate spas. We're not talking funky ones [inaudible 01:34:33]. And if I got a massage from somebody in a spa that I liked, I liked, I asked them if they would do home visits. If they said yes, I would ask them to come to the house and he would see if he liked them or not. But these were people who worked in spas. I never ever checked their age and I never checked their credentials. I never asked for a certificate.
Speaker 5 (01:34:56):
But just to be clear, you never thought anybody was underage?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:34:59):
I never crossed my… I never, no, that was never my, that was never a drive.
Todd Blanche (01:35:06):
What did you know at the time about Mr. Epstein requiring masseuses to be naked or requiring masseuses to either perform sexual favors for Mr. Epstein or to be there if Mr. Epstein masturbated or things like that? And again, I'm asking you about a 15-year period or whatever, 10 year period. So I appreciate, it's a very broad question. So answer it in a way that addresses what you've been charged with doing, but also what's been said about you.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:35:35):
Okay. So, the '90's, I don't think that I ever thought, that never would cross my mind. I'm not sure that I thought about that in those contexts at all until his arrest and those papers came out. But I believe the subject, the question that you are asking me, I believe started in the '2000's.
Todd Blanche (01:36:02):
In the '2000 time period?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:36:03):
Yes, '2000.
Todd Blanche (01:36:05):
What in your mind makes you think that that's the time that it started?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:36:09):
I think because in December of 2001, he met… And I think… Was responsible for that in its entirety. And the reason I believe that, so she was a self-confessed, having been sexually abused as a young girl and "was trained", her words, I'm quoting now, not mine, in all the arts of whatever that is, a sex program by a man called Ron Eppinger, who was her pimp from when she was 14, I believe, or 15, I don't know. And in her book, describes him training her to be what every man wants in all its manners, fellatio and everything else.
(01:37:18)
I believe that then what happened was that he met her and she came as a masseuse to his house in December of 2001 is when I think it started. Now, what their relationship was on what happened with them in that early period of time, I cannot say. What I can say is that he liked her and she started to travel with him at that time period. I know then what happened was that she… When she first started to see him, or first came into his orbit as his masseuse or whatever, she was engaged to be married and wearing an engagement ring and was living with her fiancé. She broke up after a few months with her fiancé and took up with the local drug dealer.
(01:38:14)
So let's say after four or five months of, in the time period when she was seeing Epstein, let's say we're now May, June of 2002, or is it… From whenever she hits the whatever that is? If it's 2000, I think it's 2000, I'm sorry, I think, is when she met him, December of 2007. So then you go through… I don't remember. You'll have to look.
Todd Blanche (01:38:45):
Okay. I'm not holding you to exact dates.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:38:46):
No. I'm just trying to… I'm giving the… So she takes up with the local drug dealer and she becomes druggy, druggy, like you know how druggy's normally are? I live with a lot in Tallahassee. They become even more unreliable than normal. And at some point, she's now working somewhere else. He stopped seeing her because he doesn't like people who do drugs, and I think that not seeing her lasted five or six months, and in that period of time, she got arrested for theft and she had a warrant out for her arrest. Now, this I've pieced together because this piece I didn't know. She then called Epstein to have help avoiding the warrant for her arrest, and he sent her to Thailand to get a massage therapy license. This is the bit that I guess. This is the bit that I extrapolated, in the period of time from when she came back to when she left, he asked her to replace herself as his masseuse or whatever she was doing, and she brought the first replacement for her that would've been one of the accusers in my case, I think, would've been… And then everyone who came subsequent to… Or simultaneous, if she wasn't the first, I don't know. Everyone, every single person who came to his house came through… And her boyfriend, Tony, and then whoever else underneath her, and that is how it started.
Todd Blanche (01:40:39):
So before her.
Speaker 5 (01:40:39):
Tony Figueroa.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:40:39):
Tony Figueroa was her boyfriend.
Todd Blanche (01:40:43):
Before her, so now, going back into the '90's, you don't believe that Mr. Epstein was abusing masseuses-
Speaker 5 (01:41:00):
Underage.
Todd Blanche (01:41:01):
Or overage? Well, I'm using abuse in the broadest sense of word because I'm assuming that you said that you have no idea over the years. You always assumed the masseuses were overage. Right?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:41:13):
I did.
Todd Blanche (01:41:14):
So when I'm talking about abuse. I'm even talking about an adult masseuse who comes in to give massage and is told to take off their clothes, told they're not going to get paid if they don't take off their clothes. Basically suggested they had to watch him masturbate. Like the things that have been publicly said about what he did. For now, I'm not distinguishing adults or young or underage women for that. I'm saying abuse.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:41:33):
I'm going to think that that would've been a habit.
Todd Blanche (01:41:35):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:41:36):
I'm going to say that the massage game was a habit.
Speaker 5 (01:41:41):
What does that mean?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:41:42):
That means that I'm sure that he didn't suddenly start having relations with masseuses in 2002.
Todd Blanche (01:41:49):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:41:51):
I am sure he must have had relations with masseuses, who knows when.
Todd Blanche (01:41:54):
But you're saying as far as you… I used the word abuse. You're saying that as far
Todd Blanche (01:42:00):
As you sit here today, you would describe that more as consensual, meaning the masseuse did this willingly.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:42:09):
I saw him with lots of masseuses. I never saw a single masseuse ever look unhappy or not come back or whatever. So based on my observation, I don't think that if you are being raped as now he say this prolific, I just can't imagine why you would return.
Todd Blanche (01:42:32):
It's not what you observed at the time.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:42:34):
Not at what I observed at the time. No.
Todd Blanche (01:42:37):
We're going to spend more time on this issue because I think it's important, but just going back to kind of the question that I started with in this area, which is that it ties into the blackmail issue. So we talked about people that were his clients, and you've mentioned President Clinton, and then early on-
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:43:02):
Oh, I never said he was a client.
Todd Blanche (01:43:04):
I did not say you said… I'm saying when you talk about his clients-
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:43:07):
Oh, okay. Right.
Todd Blanche (01:43:08):
Puts his clients off the side. And then you mentioned some other people. You mentioned President Clinton, you mentioned President Trump early on. Who were other famous slash politicians? Who were other individuals in Mr. Epstein's life during that time period? So the early '90s-
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:43:25):
Which was the '90s. Should we just-
Todd Blanche (01:43:28):
Yes.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:43:28):
Okay. Congressman McMillan.
Todd Blanche (01:43:30):
Say it again?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:43:31):
McMillan.
Todd Blanche (01:43:32):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:43:33):
Henry Rosovsky, who was the provost of Harvard. Hang on. Can I-
Todd Blanche (01:43:39):
Sure. You're looking at your notes. Yes, go ahead. Go ahead.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:43:44):
Joe Pagano, Jerry Goldsmith, Joe Roberts, Kenny Lipper, Dan Abramson, I don't know if in the '90s Tom Pritzker, Ace, Jimmy Kane, Lou Ranieri. I mean, they were-
Todd Blanche (01:44:00):
What about the Royal family?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:44:02):
No, he didn't know them in the '90s.
Todd Blanche (01:44:03):
What about Pritz Andrew?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:44:08):
Didn't know him in the '90s.
Todd Blanche (01:44:11):
When-
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:44:11):
Oh, well, is that right?
Todd Blanche (01:44:14):
I wouldn't [inaudible 01:44:14] there. I do not know. So I don't want you to worry about exact dates. You're not positive about that. But you don't have a specific recollection of that being in the '90s?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:44:25):
No.
Todd Blanche (01:44:25):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:44:25):
I can date it for you, I think, but I can't give you-
Todd Blanche (01:44:25):
That's okay. That's fine. So with respect to, and we'll take a break in a minute to get some food, but just with respect to Mr… to the individuals you just talked about. So again, focus on the '90s. And so the people that I'm talking about right now, and we might add some names later, so we're talking about the clients that he worked with, which you've mentioned several of, and I know that that wasn't exhaustive, but you've mentioned several of them and then the kind of what I called famous friends, but the prominent individuals that were in his life in the nineties. Does any stick out in your mind as having received massages? All of them.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:45:12):
Henry Rosovsky received a massage.
Todd Blanche (01:45:15):
Why does that stick out in your memory?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:45:16):
Because I saw him in a bathrobe at 71st Street, and he had received a massage, he told me.
Todd Blanche (01:45:28):
And do you know whether the masseuse was naked during that massage?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:45:30):
I wouldn't have any idea.
Todd Blanche (01:45:31):
Do you know whether-
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:45:33):
I doubt it. He was like in his 80s.
Todd Blanche (01:45:36):
Okay. But do you know notwithstanding his age-
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:45:41):
Minsky.
Todd Blanche (01:45:41):
Sorry, say that again?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:45:42):
Minsky was another person.
Todd Blanche (01:45:43):
Do you know whether, for example, President Clinton never received a massage?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:45:46):
I don't believe he did.
Todd Blanche (01:45:48):
And what makes you say you don't believe he did?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:45:50):
Well, because I don't, so that's a good question. The time that Epstein and President Clinton spent together, the only times I believe, well, obviously they traveled, they came, they went on the plane 26 times or whatever, that would be one journey. So they spent time on the plane together, and I don't believe there was ever a massage on the plane. So that would've been the only time that I think that President Clinton could have even received a massage and he didn't because I was there.
Todd Blanche (01:46:21):
And you mentioned that early in the very beginning of the conversation, you mentioned President Trump in the early '90s.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:46:28):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (01:46:29):
What did you observe as far as President Trump and his relationship with you or Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:46:35):
Well, I just want to say from my relationship with President Trump, relationship's a big word, but I just want to say that I met him, or I believe I may have because of my father in the '90s. So my father liked him very much, and he really liked his wife as well because we were both Czechoslovakian. And as far as I'm concerned, President Trump was always very cordial and very kind to me. And I just want to say that I admire his extraordinary achievement in becoming the President now. And I like him and I've always liked him. So that is the substance of my entire relationship with him.
Todd Blanche (01:47:18):
What about Mr. Epstein's relationship with him?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:47:21):
I don't know how they met, and I don't know how they became friends. I certainly saw them together and I remember the few times I observed them together. But they were friendly, I mean, still friendly.
Todd Blanche (01:47:31):
Was that in social settings or was that in private settings?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:47:34):
I believe I only ever saw them in social settings. I don't recall any private settings.
Todd Blanche (01:47:39):
Have you ever been to Mar-a-Lago and Palm Beach?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:47:43):
I have.
Todd Blanche (01:47:43):
In what time period are you thinking about when you say yes?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:47:48):
I don't remember when the president purchased Mar-a-Lago. So from whenever it turned into the club, I went there and I loved going there.
Todd Blanche (01:48:01):
Did you go there alone or with Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:48:03):
Mostly alone. Only times I went there it was for an event maybe once or twice.
Todd Blanche (01:48:08):
And do you know whether Mr. Epstein ever went there?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:48:10):
I believe he did, but again… Okay. We really were… He didn't take me with him all the time. So he would go and… Oh, sorry. I never… Well, he did from time to time, but he would go alone. I think he would maybe go himself to the spa. I certainly didn't.
Todd Blanche (01:48:35):
Did you ever observe President Trump receive a massage?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:48:39):
Never.
Todd Blanche (01:48:42):
Did you ever observe… You said that you… I mean, have you seen… There's photographs, public photographs of Mr. Epstein, and President Trump together.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:48:55):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (01:48:55):
And there's photographs of… I think you're in some of the photographs as well. Those all appear to be social settings.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:49:02):
Yes. That's my memory. If there were social settings, I don't know, Epstein's… If he had, whatever the nature of the President's friendship, if you will, or however you want to define that with Epstein, I was never witness. I think they were friendly like people are in social settings. I don't think they were close friends or I certainly never witnessed the president in any of… I don't recall ever seeing him in his house, for instance, I actually never saw the president in any type of massage setting. I never witnessed the president in any inappropriate setting in any way. The president was never inappropriate with anybody. In the times that I was with him, he was a gentleman in all respects.
Todd Blanche (01:49:50):
When's the last time you think you saw in person President Trump?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:49:59):
It's been a long time. Probably not… Sometime in the beginning… Mid-2000s maybe. And it would only have been a social setting as far as I recall.
Todd Blanche (01:50:12):
And did you ever hear Mr. Epstein or anybody say that President Trump had done anything inappropriate with masseuses or with anybody in your world?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:50:23):
Absolutely never in any context.
Todd Blanche (01:50:29):
Do you know whether masseuses from Mar-a-Lago Spa ended up giving private massages to Mr. Epstein? I'm not asking for what you may have read, but from at the time, from your personal knowledge, do you know whether that's true?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:50:48):
I don't recall. Is it possible? Yes, but I don't remember. I don't remember that, so I don't don't recall that, but it's possible.
Todd Blanche (01:50:57):
Do you have a recollection of you ever recruiting a masseuse from Mar-a-Lago spa to go give a private massage to Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:51:05):
I've never recruited a masseuse from Mar-a-Lago for that as far as I remember. I can't ever recollect doing that.
Todd Blanche (01:51:14):
Okay. So what I think we should do now, it's about 12:15, we'll take a break and we will come back in a little bit.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:51:22):
Okay.
Todd Blanche (01:51:22):
Okay.
Speaker 6 (01:51:22):
I like to let you know that it works. This is the afternoon test of the recording device. I see the red light blinking, and we are continuing with the lunch break. Good afternoon. We are continuing the recorded proffer interview of Ms. Maxwell. The time is 12:59, Thursday, July 24th.
Todd Blanche (01:51:57):
Okay. So just to continue what we're talking about, Ms. Maxwell, still focused on the '90s time period with understanding that could spill over in the early 2000s, but still that part of your life with Mr. Epstein, there's been public reporting about conduct by Mr. Epstein and others at Little Saint James.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:52:26):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (01:52:27):
So can you talk about the frequency with which you went there and address some of some of the reporting, namely around young masseuses or young women who would be present and what you observed relating to them? And then I'll ask questions around that.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:52:52):
So if I'm right, he purchased the island in 1996, and he was friendly with the owners. And originally we went to the island as guests of the owners. And then I guess at some point the owners told them they wanted to sell and he decided to purchase it. So the island was very rustic. I loved it. Of course, had completely different ideas. And I would say there was none of what you were describing at that early period of time.
(01:53:27)
So the frequency was often not the island because he loved it. He really, really loved it. And we would go all the time, mostly all the early phase was based on improvements that could be made on the island, always going with new architects, new designers, new construction people. I'd say the first two years, almost every trip, not everyone, but almost every trip contained an individual who would be brought on board to have an opinion as to how to… I don't want to use the word improve the island because I don't think you could improve it, but I can't think what the word would be to, what's the word, to develop it. Sorry. That's the word.
(01:54:32)
Develop the island. That's the word I'm looking for. So there were trips, constant trips with that in mind. And I would say now, if we're moving to the late '90s, '96, '97, I definitely witnessed a progression in Mr. Epstein's behavior and a modification, if you will, where in the past and the early '90s, I don't remember traveling so much with other people or there'd be a masseuse or a yoga person. But now he started to travel with more, always a masseuse. Whereas in past, it wasn't always a masseuse or always an instructor. There was now starting to be always an individual or a friend or whatever. There's always, maybe the word would be entourage, but these were always people in their 20s, late 20s, early 30s, as my memory sees it, as I observed that time. And he tasked me with finding a local masseuse for him in St. Thomas, because sometimes, even though I say he would always travel with an entourage, sometimes he didn't.
(01:55:53)
And he wanted to have a massage locally. So I visited the spas that were local in St. Thomas in St. Thomas and in St. John. And if I met someone, a man or a woman, actually, because it was difficult to find somebody in St. Thomas, it's not exactly… And I did find a couple of people who would come. So that's how they came, because also it was a schlepp. So if you had somebody who came, it would be… You'd have to boat ride and several hours, it wasn't just a… It's not late arriving with your massage tape and stuff. So there was that. I did do that.
Todd Blanche (01:56:34):
So did over the years, males also give massages to Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:56:44):
Yes, I did say… I don't think at the beginning, definitely. And I would say towards, again, late '90s, I don't remember any men. They were at the beginning, I think towards the late '90s. I cannot think of any men. I only think of women.
Todd Blanche (01:57:01):
You talk about entourage flying, right now we're talking about to the island, did you observe any sexual, I was going to say misconduct, but any sex at all whatsoever on the plane?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:57:18):
Never on the plane. Never.
Todd Blanche (01:57:21):
Was there a part of the plane that was closed off from others where Mr. Epstein could go and get a massage or whatever?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:57:31):
Yeah. Okay. So that's a good question. So there were two planes. So there was a Gulf Stream, and that's open plan. So anything, I mean, there was a sofa that turned into a bed. I needed sleep on that. But in the Boeing, which he flew on a lot, there was his area, could be closed off with a door. And behind that door there was a bedroom and an office. So if that door was shut, you wouldn't see it.
Todd Blanche (01:58:07):
But you never observed Mr. Epstein engaging in sex or getting a massage with somebody with whether masseuse was not clothed on the plane?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:58:17):
I can't say that. I might have. I definitely might have. Either both in the Gulf Stream or in the… I am sure I did, but it's not… I can't-
Todd Blanche (01:58:28):
That's fair.
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:58:28):
Okay. I'm absolutely sure I did. I must have because he was so obsessed with someone rubbing his feet or just when you ask me about massages, want to be clear, generally what I think of that is somebody on a massage table, but other people might think of it as something different. You could have someone rubbing his feet or his shoulder. I saw that all the time, that I did. But that's separate from being on a massage table.
Todd Blanche (01:58:57):
Again, I know we're talking about a decade long period, but during the period we're talking about in a seven-day week, how often would Mr. Epstein get a massage?
Ghislaine Maxwell (01:59:09):
In the '90s when we're talking he would get one every day. I think as that time progressed, he would get one maybe twice a day. I do want to say that there was maybe a reason that things altered or morphed or progressed and it is maybe part of the reason also that he and I, our relationship or have somebody wants to call it altered, and he started doing testosterone and that altered his character. And I believe that started in the late '90s. And I believe that the FBI has his medical records, and you may see that on his medical records.
Todd Blanche (02:00:11):
So you believe that he started taking testosterone in the '90s. And when you say that altered his behavior, you're saying it made him get more massages or that was just one part of what changed about him?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:00:25):
Well, he became more aggressive.
Todd Blanche (02:00:27):
Nice.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:00:28):
And I think that he may be… Well, now I'm just imagining that the testosterone altered his desires or something. Does that-
Todd Blanche (02:00:43):
And so given what you've said the past couple hours about his kind of progression or change, let's focus on that time period. So more towards the late '90s, so '96, '97, '98. When you've said that he changed, did you know flat-out that he was having sex or otherwise some sort of sexual conduct with masseuses regularly?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:01:20):
No, I denied that. I couldn't imagine that he would, but I think looking back now that… I did not, but I started to suspect that he was not faithful. Seems ludicrous, but that's what I thought.
Todd Blanche (02:01:41):
Look, if he's flying from Palm Beach to St. Thomas, or if he's flying all over the country to New Mexico or to New York, or even in Palm Beach, and there's young women putting aside whether they're under the age of 18 or in their 20s every day at the house, multiple masseuses, multiple massages on some days, you're interacting with the masseuses constantly. Or maybe that's not right.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:02:12):
That's not right.
Todd Blanche (02:02:13):
Let me take back what I just said, ignore that part. But you understand these getting massages every day, sometimes multiple times a day, by the late '90s, it's all women. Presumably some of them are new, but they're also repeat masseuses. What did you… I mean, you had to know at that point that there was something going on beyond just he really needed a massage.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:02:38):
Very fair question. There's two things. The first is the person that he saw the most at that period of time was in her 40s. And she was with him all the time. And like married as well and I'm square. And it never occurred… Well, I don't believe it occurred to me at the time that with this woman, he would be having relations and he was with her, that was the person he had the most massages, yoga and that with at that time in the '90s period. The second thing is that he told me he had to fully having an erection. And I believed him.
Todd Blanche (02:03:35):
When you said he said that, you mean he regularly told you that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:03:39):
When I first… Because when I didn't have sex with him after the first time, and it took… So I asked him, "Was it me?" And he told me it was him. And I never… Up until this moment in my life, I'm not stupid. I'm very bright. I've had an excellent education. I traveled all over the world. I had had boyfriends, but I had never met or understood that somebody would lie to me about… It never occurred to me. I didn't have a frame of context within my life experience where somebody would be so manipulative and devious with me. And plus I just didn't have… And I was happy not to have sex because I have a condition that doesn't lend itself to that.
Todd Blanche (02:04:49):
When you learned… So fast-forward just for a moment to the 2000s, '07, '08, '09 time period, and he's arrested and charged and there's all kinds of press around his purported contact. At that point, did you accept that that was true? Meaning, did it make sense at that point when you were reading about women who claim that they had been abused, even underage? And at that point, did you think to yourself, "Well, geez, that makes sense now that I think about it," or no?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:05:20):
First of all, I didn't… I only read what was in the newspapers. I didn't have any other thing. And I'm embarrassed to say it, I didn't believe it.
Todd Blanche (02:05:29):
Okay. Right. I mean, you didn't believe that the accusations were true at the time. Yeah.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:05:41):
And sorry, I need to say, even if they were true, I believe that he was duped and he didn't know that they were whatever was in the papers at that time, whether they said that they were 17 or it didn't register because along with all of those, well, not in 2006, but later, when the more salacious and other allegations came out, I knew were utterly false, which then just reinforced my belief that the rest was not true.
Todd Blanche (02:06:12):
Let me ask you a question about the age of the masseuses over the years. I think in my mind there's a difference between you knowing or not knowing that a masseuse is under the age of 18 and coming to give a massage and you knowing that Mr. Epstein sexually abused the underage person or made her strip or something like that, meaning… And I want to understand whether you believe that nobody that came to give massages, none of the women were under 18, or that you didn't focus on their age, but you were more focused on whether any underage woman was abused by him.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:07:10):
I think it's better to answer this question with corroborating evidence and then go back and explain. So I frame your understanding of what I'm saying. My understanding is that in let's say 2008, they had interviewed 44 women, let's say, or around that number. You have to understand, not a single one of those 44 women mentioned me in a single report. And it's not because… Go back. They didn't mention me in the report because they never met me, they never saw me, and they never interacted with me. So to go back to your question, it's not that I thought one way or another, it's that I didn't see them.
Todd Blanche (02:08:05):
Okay, I see. Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:08:05):
Does that-
Todd Blanche (02:08:05):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's helpful. So-
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:08:09):
When I say not one, not one of those single reports talks about me, and I just want to clarify exactly, because I'm obviously aware that one of those girls was one of the witnesses in my trial specifically [inaudible 02:08:31] to use her own testimony so that you don't have to hear my point of view. It's better if it comes from her own words. And that way, there's no second-guessing what I'm saying. [inaudible 02:08:45] herself said that [inaudible 02:08:48] recruited her, [inaudible 02:08:50] brought her, and [inaudible 02:08:58] trained her. Those are [inaudible 02:08:58] own words. What was I getting with this?
Todd Blanche (02:08:57):
That you didn't know, I mean, I assume-
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:09:01):
Oh, yeah, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Trying to remember the words.
Todd Blanche (02:09:03):
It's okay. It's okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:09:05):
I really do have some slow cognition issues.
Todd Blanche (02:09:11):
So she testifies that it was [inaudible 02:09:16] that recruited her and trained her and not you.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:09:18):
So wait, so then in her first FBI meeting, she reports seeing a woman with short dark hair at the house, which then is used as evidence that that person was myself. But the maid, the lady who helped keep the house, John Alessi's wife, with an accent, I believe she said, John Alessi's wife had short, dark hair and an accent. I'm sorry, but I find… And you can ask yourselves this, I mean, I've obviously modified my accent. I've been in America a long time, but I'm British. I've been brought up with a very strong British accent. And I don't believe there's American on planet Earth that doesn't recognize this to be British or Australian, maybe if you really don't know, but it's not some random accent. Now the Hispanic maybe. Okay, that was John's wife that she saw, not me. And I'd like to point out further how you potentially through her own words she identified-
Speaker 6 (02:10:28):
Why don't we stop there and then ask the next question.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:10:29):
Okay.
Todd Blanche (02:10:33):
So just, look, I want try to… I think probably tomorrow I want to talk more about the evidence against you and how to address that.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:10:47):
Okay. Sorry.
Todd Blanche (02:10:48):
No, no. Don't apologize. So that's helpful. But I don't want you to be burdened. I want you to just tell the truth the best you can. So I don't want you to be burdened by what people said at trial or what you know the press says about you.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:11:00):
I just thought it was illustrative when you asked the question.
Todd Blanche (02:11:02):
It was.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:11:06):
I did not… I absolutely have no memory at any… Now I'm leaving [inaudible 02:11:13] separate to this, obviously. So that's a separate story. I'm not going to pretend, well-
Todd Blanche (02:11:17):
We'll get to her. Go ahead.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:11:19):
But in the terms of the scheme or whatever, however you want to determine what you're calling that, I have no memory, no active anything of having seen anybody that resembles a young child, let's call it what it is, at that house giving him a massage at all. It's not even like I did this, it's an at all, and 44 people didn't see me or talk about me either, including [inaudible 02:11:58].
Todd Blanche (02:12:00):
And when you say that house-
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:12:02):
Oh, sorry, beach.
Todd Blanche (02:12:04):
No, I understand what you mean. And it does the same memory or lack thereof apply to on planes in New Mexico and New York and-
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:12:15):
Well, with some other important caveats. Well, on that Bajulin Jane in my trial was clearly underage, clearly a child. And I only saw her in Palm Beach, and I only saw her with her mother, the other person who was clearly also not an adult or even [inaudible 02:12:38], I believe I remember her now. But that would be the only two, only three, whatever that is.
Todd Blanche (02:12:52):
So did you ever know Mr. Epstein to communicate with FBI agents, either like intelligence FBI agents as a source, or just generally with FBI agents?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:13:04):
No.
Todd Blanche (02:13:04):
Do you think if he had done that, you would've known, he would've told you something like that? If I said to you, "Mr. Epstein was a source for the FBI," would you say, "That's crazy, no, he wasn't? Or maybe he was. He wouldn't have told me that anyway."
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:13:30):
I have two answers for that. I think if he was for real, I think he would've bragged about it to me as a show-off because he could be a show off. And if he wasn't, he might've dropped it like he was cool. And I don't think… I don't remember him doing either. Now with, again, the caveat that before I met him finding money, I think he may have suggested that there were some people who helped him, but that's the only context that I recall that in.
Todd Blanche (02:14:05):
What do you mean by that? When you said finding money, what do you mean?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:14:08):
Well, his business where he… Remember I told you, I think in that context, he showed me a photograph that he had with some African warlords or something that he told me. And I don't remember if that's what I interpreted, that kind of thing, or whether it was something like that. That's the only actual active memory I have of something nefarious, not nefarious. I don't even know if it was nefarious, but covert I suppose would be the word.
Todd Blanche (02:14:44):
And what about any other intelligence agency like the CIA or Defense Intelligence or any other law enforcement agency?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:14:58):
Okay. I don't think so. I think that… I don't remember anything like that. I just don't think he had the wherewithal. And I think that whole aspect of that is… Can I use a bad word?
Todd Blanche (02:15:14):
Yes.
Speaker 6 (02:15:14):
Yes.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:15:15):
Bullshit.
Todd Blanche (02:15:19):
Okay. And you think it's bullshit, meaning… What do you mean?
Speaker 6 (02:15:26):
Would you have known if he was… Would he have been bragging to you, would he have been saying these things?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:15:36):
I think he was because I think… Well, sorry. I think one of the reasons why he liked me was because of my family connections and why he liked other people was because they were cool or whatever. And I think that certainly early when I met him, he would've tried to impress me or tried to show off, if you will. He was that guy
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:16:00):
… and he wasn't that guy. And I think that he would've tried to bullshit me and he didn't. So, I think it's-
Todd Blanche (02:16:07):
[inaudible 02:16:08].
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:16:09):
Well, he may have tried to bullshit me, but not [inaudible 02:16:11].
Todd Blanche (02:16:11):
Right. Right.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:16:11):
Sorry.
Todd Blanche (02:16:12):
So, I want to just shift for a few minutes to talk about post-2000, 2000 to when your relationship changed over the years with him. Did there come a time when Mr. Epstein did meet members of the royal family?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:16:29):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (02:16:30):
When was that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:16:32):
So, I need to go back because I think I may have misspoke. I didn't misspeak, but something that I had forgotten-
Todd Blanche (02:16:37):
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:16:41):
Before I met Epstein, he lived in London for a period of time, I don't know for how long and he met and knew some truly fancy people, like high society people, that included Princess Diana's best friend. Her name was Rosa Monckton. And Rosa's husband, Dominic Lawson, who's a famous journalist, actually. He's a very well-known journalist. And he was friends with the Barings, Barings Bank. And-
Todd Blanche (02:17:15):
And you're talking about before-
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:17:19):
Before he met me.
Todd Blanche (02:17:20):
Before, so in the-
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:17:21):
'80s.
Todd Blanche (02:17:21):
'80s?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:17:24):
Yes. Yes, he was dating Eva Anderson, Ms. Sweden, I think. I don't know, when she became Ms. Sweden.
Todd Blanche (02:17:28):
Okay. So, earlier when you said that he met them later, you think he may have met some members of the royal family or certainly British high society-
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:17:38):
I don't know about the royal family, but certainly, high society. And the reason why I know this is because sometime… This is a documentable, I think… Whatever. There's a photograph that can give you the date because I don't remember what the date is of this. So, there's something that will peg whatever this date is, I don't remember when that is. Epstein went to London without me. He often went everywhere without me, but he was in London without me, which was decently unusual because London's my hometown, but anyway, he went without me. And he went to a big event in, I think it was in the… Anyway, it was a big event. It's on the news. There's photographs of it. And I don't know if he sat with Diana or he met Diana or he'd already met her. I don't know, but this I believe was organized by Rosa. And so, I don't know if she was being set up as a date for him, maybe because… I don't want to speak bad of Diana. I'm not going to do it.
Todd Blanche (02:18:39):
Okay, so that was pre-meeting you?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:18:43):
No, that event happened when we were-
Todd Blanche (02:18:46):
Oh, okay. That was [inaudible 02:18:49].
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:18:48):
No, it's when we were… I'm not going to say together. But how about this, when I was his employee. That's a bit better.
Todd Blanche (02:18:55):
Okay. So, now moving back to the 2000s, did there come a time when Mr. Epstein met Prince Andrew?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:19:02):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (02:19:03):
And others in the royal family or just Prince Andrew as far as you know?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:19:07):
Well, so as much as I can piece it together. First of all, let's just state, I did not introduce him to Prince Andrew. I did not introduce him to Prince Andrew or to Sarah Ferguson. That is a flat untruth, start with that. So, now I can tell you how he did actually meet him. So, if you find me that photograph, I can date that time when he met Princess Diana at that event. And based on that, I'll be able to tell you if it's pre or post that event because I haven't looked it up and I've never bothered to check. So, Lynn Forester who was a client or some type of client, or I think she actually tried to date him or might've dated him, for the record. She was in… Do you want to ask me something?
Todd Blanche (02:20:00):
No, go on.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:20:00):
Okay. She had a house or she rented a house in the Vineyard. I think it was in the Vineyard or Nantucket, I can't remember now which one it was. It was one of those. It was either Nantucket or the Vineyard, and invited Epstein to go and I believe that's when he met Prince Andrew. However, I believe that before that event he had gone to The Bahamas and had hung out with Sarah Ferguson. And Sarah had called Epstein and had arranged with Lynn or… I don't know. I don't know. Now, I'm speculating. Anyway, long and short, he met Andrew there.
Todd Blanche (02:20:48):
And I'm not holding to an exact date, but when approximately was that-
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:20:51):
Well, we can date it from that picture. If you find me the picture-
Todd Blanche (02:20:53):
But you know without looking at a photo, in your mind, approximately when was that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:20:58):
I want to say it was 2001. 2002.
Todd Blanche (02:21:01):
Early 2000s?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:21:05):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (02:21:06):
And I think it was actually Prince Andrew himself who suggested that he met Jeffrey Epstein through you.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:21:15):
I think that's true. Well-
Speaker 7 (02:21:20):
It's true that Andrew said that.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:21:22):
No, I'm sure it's true because I am English and my close friends are all close friends with Sarah and Andrew. And I would not say that I was close friends with Andrew before, but certainly, we were friendly. And certainly, his best friends, some of them were very, very close with me. And I think that my friendship, me being present or me is what made Andrew like Jeffrey more, trust him or I think that's maybe-
Todd Blanche (02:22:03):
So, you don't dispute that you had a role in getting together. You're just saying you didn't say Prince-
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:22:13):
I would never have introduced him. It would never have occurred to me to introduce them. I couldn't imagine them being very good… Two chalk and cheeses, I mean for real. There's nothing there to connect them. So, he met Prince Andrew and then he had a relationship. I don't like that word, it sounds clunky. They had a-
Speaker 8 (02:22:31):
Courtingship?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:22:33):
Thank you. And through Sarah, actually, I think Sarah is the one that pushed that. And they met and hung out, I want to say two or three times that had nothing to do with me. I wasn't communicating with Andrew, I wasn't in touch with him. I know this because I was annoyed and I felt left out and I felt disrespected and I was like, "This is weird." I couldn't even imagine Epstein and Andrew together. And I thought that Sarah was trying to put the movies on Jeffrey, if I'm being honest. And I thought the whole thing was annoying and I was pissed off.
Todd Blanche (02:23:19):
So, putting aside the publicity around Prince Andrew's purported relationship with what (beep), what happened as far as with Prince Andrew and Mr. Epstein's relationship from the times you just described or-
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:23:34):
Okay. So, after that, at some point, Epstein told me that Andrew was coming to New York and I needed to organize the whole thing. That's classic by the way, classic Epstein. Of course if someone… I was like, "All right. Fine, whatever." And because he wanted to make sure that Andrew was taken care of and that he was comfortable, he had whatever he needed, yada yada, yada. And I'm like, "Well, am I going to meet him or you're just going to have me do all the job?" And he said, "Well, you can come and say hello." Great. Wow, that's so nice of you, for real. Because you have to understand, I don't know if I told you this before, but I did not have the keys to… I was not allowed to go to his house unless I was summoned or told. I was not allowed to answer his phones. We can go there. But anyway, you can tell it was a bit of a sore point perhaps.
(02:24:28)
Anyway, so Andrew came, and of course the minute we got together I was like, "Yay. Hi." And then, it was so nice because the difference of being in England with Prince Andrew versus being in New York without all the bullshit was insane and our friendship just lit up like this because first of all, he knew that I'm safe. I mean safe as in I'm not Nigel Dempster or taking a picture. Not in a million years would I do something so gross. And we honestly got on like a house on fire. I really liked him a lot and it was so nice and we just became really, really good friends. Much more so than when we were in London, if I'm honest.
Todd Blanche (02:25:21):
And then, with respect to (beep) and Prince Andrew, what do you know about that relationship?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:25:28):
Would you like to ask that again? Relationship's a big word. Like I said, I don't like the word, let's just start there. Okay, so I have read… I just want piece together-
Todd Blanche (02:25:42):
Before you say what you read because that's one of the problems is that we're well-informed by all the publicity and information around what everybody else has said, but what do you think or what did you see? What did you hear?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:25:58):
Well, what's an even bigger word than bullshit?
Todd Blanche (02:26:00):
Okay. Why? Well, go ahead. But finish that thought. Why do you think that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:26:05):
I'm going to tell you right now. I'm so happy to tell you. I'm excited. I'm beyond excited. Okay, so there's got a mixture of what I've actually seen and know from the evidence and versus what I've put together. Impossible for me at this point to separate everything, but I'll tell you what I know, versus what I saw and what I physically have in here, but it's helpful for you to know.
(02:26:29)
So, the allegation… I have to go with the allegation. The allegation was that at my house in London, in March, whatever that was, 2001 I believe, we went to London especially so that (beep) could have a relationship with Prince Andrew. And she was paid a vast amount of money for that purpose. Okay. And that she then got in my bathroom in my house in London and had sexual relations with him and then went into my guest room and had full-blown sex. And then, left my house or he left and she felt used and disgusting. And a photograph was taken of them just before all these events took place in my study. That is what is the story.
(02:27:25)
Oh, and then, after that, she met him several other times, but we'll come to that. This is where it all allegedly started.
Speaker 7 (02:27:30):
And they went to Tramp.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:27:32):
Oh right, right, right. We went to a nightclub that night. Oh, we went to dinner. We went to dinner and then to Tramp. Okay, so the first thing about that weekend, that specific weekend was it's my mum's 80th birthday and I was in the country. And I have some corroborating evidence for that and a lot of testimonials that you can check. So, that takes care of one of the reasons why her story doesn't hold water. The second reason why…
(02:28:05)
So, by the way, when I say that, my mum turned 80 that actual weekend because her birthday's on March the 11th. And the reason why I went to London, and I presume, but I guess I don't remember, is why when we were… So, the whole trip started because of Alberto Pinto, who is the decorator for the island and for New York as well. And he had wanted Epstein to go to see a house in Marrakesh, if I remember rightly, and went via the Alhambra. It was also for New Mexico. So, there's architectural pieces that… And that was the basis of that trip.
(02:28:52)
And I suspect now that that trip was planned all around the fact that I was going to be in London no matter what for my mum's 80th birthday at my brother's house in the country, which is approximately an hour outside of London. An hour and a half?
Speaker 7 (02:29:07):
Yeah.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:29:09):
An hour and a half outside of London in my brother's home. And we all congregated on the Saturday for her birthday celebration on the Sunday and then we left. So, that's that. The second reason why, probably, maybe even the more important reason than my mum's birthday that I think is absolute rubbish, is that Prince Andrew, the idea of him doing anything of that nature in my house… The size of this room is so mind-blowingly not conceivable to me as the man or… I just can't even… No.
Todd Blanche (02:30:05):
Is there any way that it could have happened?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:30:05):
No.
Todd Blanche (02:30:05):
Okay.
Speaker 7 (02:30:05):
Describe the physical plan.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:30:06):
Oh, the physical? So, my house was tiny. I think it's 900 square feet in total. Is that right? Maybe. Maybe. It is on three floors, however. We're talking about a little… It's a jewel. It used to be a stable for a horse. It was the stables for the big houses. It was a little poor man's home behind the rich man's home. It's a jewel. It was a gorgeous little place, but it is the size of a nut. If you make a noise, let's say the little burp or something, you'd hear it.
(02:30:48)
When she says that they had relations in a bathroom, first of all, the bath is an old Victorian bath. I'm quite small, it's tight for me. I put my brother in there to see what would happen and it looks like a blivet, which is a sausage in a very tight, tight skin. So, her description of whatever the two people were doing in the tub, that wouldn't work. The bathroom itself is so small, you can't lie flat on the floors. So, it couldn't happen on the floor because you physically, physically can't. The bathroom is too small to even be on the floor.
(02:31:26)
And then, the kicker of all kickers is that because the bathroom was so small, I decorated it to try and make it look huge, which meant that I put mirrors the whole way around it. And what was so fun about being in there is that if you stood in the bathroom, you saw like 100 of you, like you do if you were in-
Speaker 8 (02:31:43):
A fun house?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:31:43):
Yeah. Well, Alice in Wonderland or one of those things that you would see yourself going, stretching everything and the image, if you said you were, let's say you were, let's say the (beep) is telling the truth, she could say she was having sex with 5,000 generations of the royal family because that's how far back you could see yourself. There is no way in God's green earth if that had taken place, that this is something that you would miss because you couldn't miss it. If you were standing there, there you'd see the whole of the FBI, the whole of the Department of Justice standing behind you. It's like, no.
Todd Blanche (02:32:17):
Did you-
Speaker 7 (02:32:20):
Let me just… Also explain where the tap was in the bathtub.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:32:24):
Well, it had a tap. This is the tap. The tap would be here. I think… No.
Todd Blanche (02:32:41):
So, you think it's logistically and physically not something that could have happened?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:32:46):
Well, there's that. And Andrew, he's so English. He's so… He had a tie on.
Todd Blanche (02:33:08):
Do you think there's any way it could have happened or no?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:33:10):
Absolutely, on no way, no how, absolutely not. Wait, I haven't finished. So, oh, go.
Speaker 8 (02:33:21):
No. No.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:33:21):
Oh, sorry.
Todd Blanche (02:33:21):
No, go ahead. Go ahead.
Speaker 7 (02:33:21):
It's just me [inaudible 02:33:22].
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:33:21):
I'm sorry.
Todd Blanche (02:33:22):
No, go ahead. Go, go, go. Finish, please. Go ahead. Go ahead.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:33:24):
Sorry. Can I finish?
Todd Blanche (02:33:25):
That's okay. Yes.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:33:28):
Okay. When all this nonsense took place where this whole story with the picture and that this and the that, and the bullshit, I believe that this whole thing was manufactured and I can point you to some potentially corroborating evidence of this. So, when she gave the photograph to the FBI in Australia-
Todd Blanche (02:33:53):
Just to be clear, the photograph you're talking about, you're talking about the famous one where-
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:33:56):
Yeah, I have an image of it here.
Todd Blanche (02:33:57):
Where Prince Andrews is holding the (beep) and you're in the background?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:34:05):
The fake, just to be clear. So, on the back of that, and this is in the discovery, by the way, I don't know if it's in… I don't know which discovery I saw it in now, but (beep) wrote in the back that it was a picture that was taken in January of 2000 or 2001, I don't remember. So, now in her handwriting that she's giving the FBI this picture, suddenly now it's March. So, how do you go from her writing it's January to March? It's because only that's the only one that fit with the flight logs that when she could be in London and this took place.
(02:34:44)
The second thing is that… Oh, I'm so excited to tell you this. There is a journalist. I know you guys are quite… I don't know, the fake news is at work here. So, there's a journalist called Sharon Churcher. There is a lawyer called Brad Edwards, and there is a Southern District of Florida prosecutor called Villafaña. I would very much look forward to showing you the relationship between these three parties that created that story.
Todd Blanche (02:35:28):
Well, putting aside the relationship, why do you think they created that story?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:35:37):
I believe that story was created for the purposes of… Well, there were multiple. The first one is financial. The second one is for the purposes of the CVRA case. The third one was for the serialization, both of her book and in the papers for the story to attack the royal family, just as a-
Todd Blanche (02:36:07):
So, I think when you were just asked about the photo, you said you actually thought the photo was fake. Do you think it was just misstated or do you think it's literally a fake photo?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:36:20):
I believe it's literally a fake photo.
Todd Blanche (02:36:23):
Why do you think that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:36:23):
Well, first of all, I don't remember it. We'll start-
Todd Blanche (02:36:23):
Right, but-
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:36:31):
Okay, but the outfit I'm wearing is the outfit from my mum's birthday party.
Todd Blanche (02:36:40):
But do you dispute that they've met each other?
Speaker 8 (02:36:47):
Do you know whether they've met each other?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:36:49):
I do not know that they met.
Todd Blanche (02:36:50):
Okay, so you think the photograph is fake, but you also are not even positive they actually ever met each other?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:36:57):
I'm not.
Todd Blanche (02:36:59):
So, you don't have a specific recollection of being at an event or a party or your apartment or you're flat in London with Prince Andrew and (beep)?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:37:10):
Absolutely not.
Speaker 8 (02:37:12):
She doesn't know one way or the other.
Todd Blanche (02:37:13):
I understand that.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:37:18):
I want you to know that the reason why… I don't have any memory of that, so that's not the issue. The issue is could Andrew have come to the house to see me or see Epstein and say hi and she had been there? Yes. I can't say that that never happened, but what I can absolutely categorically say is that I never at any time set Andrew up to have relations with her or any other human being, ever. And I can categorically state that her characterization of whatever may or may not have had could physically would… Just no. And plus, I was in the country. So, all of that's just not conceivable.
Todd Blanche (02:38:02):
Did you attend social parties over, and again, I really know I'm focused on 2000 plus, so not the early years, where Mr. Epstein would host a party or be a big part of the hosting of the party and many of the young women who were masseuses would be invited to the party as guests or as entertainment?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:38:39):
I certainly went to his house when he would have people who would be there that were… The way I would think of it and I would characterize it were his entourage, that's how I thought about it. And that certainly was in the later 2000s, yes.
Todd Blanche (02:38:59):
Did you attend any weddings of famous people with Mr. Epstein? Again, I'm mostly focused on post-2000, but if there's something that comes to mind in the '90s, that's fine as well.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:39:14):
Of wedding?
Todd Blanche (02:39:15):
Weddings.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:39:17):
With Epstein? I don't think I ever went to a wedding with Epstein. I can't think of a wedding that I ever went to with him.
Todd Blanche (02:39:32):
So, you didn't attend President Clinton's daughter's wedding?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:39:36):
I did.
Todd Blanche (02:39:36):
Chelsea Clinton's?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:39:37):
I did.
Todd Blanche (02:39:37):
But that wasn't with Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:39:38):
No, it was with Ted Waitt, my boyfriend.
Todd Blanche (02:39:42):
Say it again.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:39:42):
With Ted Waitt, my boyfriend.
Todd Blanche (02:39:43):
Okay. Do you know whether Mr. Epstein was at that wedding?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:39:47):
He was not.
Todd Blanche (02:39:51):
Okay. And did you have a relationship… Well, why did you get invited to that wedding?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:39:55):
Because Ted and Clinton were very close.
Todd Blanche (02:40:00):
And how were you close to them? What was the reason you were close to them?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:40:03):
I met President Clinton… First of all, I went to the White House with Epstein once, I think it was for a historical… like one of those benefits. And I met the president then, but like 1,000 other people, shook his hand. Then, after that, I had a good friend of mine that was known to be the mayor of Miami Beach, Philip Levine. And Philip and the president were very good friends. And Philip and I were very good friends. And so, I actually was introduced to the president post his coming out of the White House and became friendly with him because of Philip Levine.
Todd Blanche (02:40:54):
Because of what?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:40:54):
Philip Levine.
Todd Blanche (02:40:55):
There's some names that have been publicly associated with Mr. Epstein that I just want to ask you if you know about. Piers Morgan?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:41:09):
Is friendly with who?
Todd Blanche (02:41:10):
With Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:41:11):
I have no idea. I doubt it.
Todd Blanche (02:41:13):
Yeah, there's no trick question.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:41:14):
Oh, okay.
Todd Blanche (02:41:15):
I'm not suggesting that I know the answer to it. I'm generally just asking.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:41:19):
Well, I would be astonished. I can't imagine they'd have anything in common either.
Todd Blanche (02:41:23):
How about-
Speaker 8 (02:41:24):
Are you close friends with Piers Morgan?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:41:26):
I've met him. I've met him. I met him at an event in Manhattan more recently, so probably in 2012, something in that. And we had a very nice conversation, so I remember that. I don't remember if I'd ever met him before, but I remember thinking how nice he was and I was surprised, so I liked him. What can I tell you? So, that's the only memory I have of that. I'm not sure if that's correct, but that's what I think.
Todd Blanche (02:42:04):
I don't have a correct or incorrect [inaudible 02:42:06].
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:42:05):
No, I just don't know. I just want to try and-
Speaker 8 (02:42:07):
[inaudible 02:42:08].
Todd Blanche (02:42:08):
No, I want you to believe me because I mean this. There is so much information in the public sphere about you and Mr. Epstein and others around. And some of it is definitely true and some of it is definitely false.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:42:24):
Okay. All right.
Todd Blanche (02:42:25):
When I ask a question, if I think that you're not being honest or that you're missing something, this isn't got you. I'll say that to you. Did you ever meet JFK Jr.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:42:35):
I'm sorry?
Todd Blanche (02:42:35):
Did you ever meet JFK Jr.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:42:38):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (02:42:38):
When was that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:42:42):
I met him at Andrew Cuomo's wedding? No, Kerry's wedding. Kerry's wedding. Who did Kerry marry? Andrew Cuomo? Yes, sorry. Andrew Cuomo's wedding in-
Todd Blanche (02:42:59):
When would that have been, approximately?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:43:00):
1990.
Todd Blanche (02:43:00):
So, before-
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:43:04):
1999, something like that.
Todd Blanche (02:43:08):
But would that have been before you Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:43:12):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (02:43:16):
Did you have any sort of professional or social relationship with John F. Kennedy Jr?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:43:20):
I fancied him.
Todd Blanche (02:43:20):
You what?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:43:23):
I thought he was very attractive.
Todd Blanche (02:43:23):
Oh, you fancied him?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:43:23):
Yeah.
Todd Blanche (02:43:28):
Sorry. Besides him you finding him attractive and fancying him, did you have any social relationship with him?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:43:34):
We knew each other. And I thought he was wonderful and fun and I enjoyed meeting him. I want to say we had a dinner or two, I was very excited, but that was it.
Todd Blanche (02:43:48):
And then, Alan Dershowitz.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:43:51):
What's the question with Alan?
Todd Blanche (02:43:53):
Say that again.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:43:54):
What's the question?
Todd Blanche (02:43:56):
Do you know Mr. Dershowitz?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:43:57):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (02:43:57):
Do you know whether he knew Mr. Epstein? Do you know the nature of their relationship?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:44:01):
I definitely do know Alan. I'm just trying to remember if I knew him… I'm trying to remember how I met him and if I met him separate from Epstein, I don't remember. So, that, I have no recollection. I know that he was Epstein's lawyer. I don't know if they had any relationship prior to that. I don't remember. Oh, I do, actually. Sorry. I think they met at Martha's Vineyard through Lynn Forrester. I think that's what happened. I think that's it.
Todd Blanche (02:44:39):
And why do you think that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:44:42):
Because it just popped in my head.
Todd Blanche (02:44:43):
Okay. And you said that Mr. Dershowitz was Mr. Epstein's attorney. Do you know whether they also socialized?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:44:54):
So, I have two distinct memories with Alan. One is with him and his wife at the island and I actually remember that. And I remember, I think, going to his house in Boston if he had a house in Boston. That's only two times I remember.
Todd Blanche (02:45:18):
Did you ever observe Mr. Dershowitz doing anything inappropriate with young women around Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:45:24):
Never.
Todd Blanche (02:45:26):
Did anybody ever tell you that he had done anything inappropriate?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:45:30):
Absolutely not.
Todd Blanche (02:45:33):
Do you know, one way or the other, whether Mr. Dershowitz ever got a massage at the island or any of the locations that he was at with Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:45:45):
I don't remember anything about him ever getting a massage. I don't believe I ever even saw him in a bathrobe. I have no knowledge of that.
Todd Blanche (02:46:02):
I'm jumping around a little bit. You mentioned, I think briefly, the The TerraMar Project.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:46:09):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (02:46:10):
What is that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:46:14):
I founded TerraMar in… The idea of TerraMar came, I think, in 2010. So, I want to just explain TerraMar a little bit. So, Ted and I bought a boat. Well, Ted bought the boat. And the basis of the boat was to do explorations and sea exploratory stuff. This really started because I have and have had, since I was a child, a love of the ocean and everything aquatic and I'm nervous about the state of the ocean. When Ted and I, we worked with National Geographic and we did exploratory work. And the most exciting… Well, we did many exciting things, but one of the most fabulous ones that we did was we looked for Amelia Earhart twice. I did two expeditions to look for Amelia Earhart as an example of an exploration that we did.
(02:47:39)
And he had a foundation for the ocean. And we worked with Nat Geo, we worked with Woods Hole. We did amazing things. He bought the REMUS 6000. So, when the plane went missing, the plane that went… Was it Air France from Brazil to Paris and went down, it was the REMUS 6000 that found that plane. It's one of those deep sea underwater exploratory… Anyway, when I broke up with Ted, one of the things I did not want to give up was my love of the ocean and everything that we did.
(02:48:20)
And the genesis of Terramar came from that. So, Terramar, obviously means land, sea. And the story of the ocean is that earth really shouldn't be called earth. It should be called ocean because three quarters is the ocean. And so, I wanted to not clash with anything to do with Ted because it was a bit awkward between us. And so, he took all the part of the ocean that was close to land, so within 200 miles. And so, I decided I would focus on all the part of the ocean that was outside of national borders, TerraMar. And that's the genesis of TerraMar.
Todd Blanche (02:48:58):
So, what was the time period of that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:49:01):
I think after I broke up with Ted, so 2010, '11 is when it started. And then, I ran it all the way up until whenever the Epstein drama struck. And then, I just shut it down. I shut it down because I didn't want what was happening to hurt the Smithsonian or Nat Geo. I just couldn't let everything be hurt by what was happening to me.
Todd Blanche (02:49:31):
Do you know Jean-Luc Brunel?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:49:34):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (02:49:34):
How do you know him?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:49:36):
I met him… So, when I told you I was working For The European for my dad and I was in charge-
Todd Blanche (02:49:46):
So, back in the early '90s?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:49:48):
Yeah. And I was running a magazine. One of the things in the magazine is fashion. And so, I was going to some fashion shows and I was looking for fashion
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:50:00):
… fashion sponsorship. In fact, when I came to America, one of the first sponsors that I got for it was Ron Perelman at Revlon, who was great. I met Jean-Luc through just in Paris like that. Socially, not.
Todd Blanche (02:50:21):
Did Mr. Epstein know him as well? Did you later learn they knew each other?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:50:25):
I'm not sure. Epstein had his own fashion situation. He would have … He didn't meet Jean-Luc through me.
Todd Blanche (02:50:34):
Did you ever observe them together over the years?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:50:36):
Absolutely. Yeah, I saw them many times together.
Todd Blanche (02:50:39):
Did he visit the island?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:50:39):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (02:50:39):
Did he go to Palm Beach house?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:50:47):
Yeah, he went everywhere. I saw him in every place.
Todd Blanche (02:50:50):
Do you ever observe him getting a massage? Or do you ever know whether he got a massage, maybe you didn't observe it personally? You don't remember?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:51:02):
I don't know. I have no conscious memory of Jean-Luc … I would imagine that he did, but I didn't see it.
Todd Blanche (02:51:12):
Yeah. How about Mr. Weinstein, Harvey Weinstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:51:16):
What would you like to know?
Todd Blanche (02:51:17):
Do you know him?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:51:18):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (02:51:19):
How do you know him? I guess when I say how do you know him, is it a relationship you had separate from Mr. Epstein, or did you meet him through Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:51:30):
First of all, I wouldn't say I had any type of relationship with Harvey Weinstein-
Todd Blanche (02:51:36):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:51:36):
… in any context. Socially I would meet him because I would go to events that Harvey would be at. And also, his wife I think actually back then, Georgina. I was friendly also would be a big word, more of an acquaintance. We would see each other, and I would go to Miramax events. There was a couple of people who worked for Harvey who I was friendly with. His primary producer whose name is Meryl Poster I was friendly with. Yeah.
Todd Blanche (02:52:10):
Do you know whether Mr. Epstein had his own relationship with Mr. Weinstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:52:14):
He did.
Todd Blanche (02:52:15):
Did they socialize together at the island, or in Palm Beach, or in Mexico?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:52:22):
I never saw Harvey at any of Epstein's houses. I didn't know that they were friends. I can't see them together either, literally. I know that they said … I would imagine, and in fact I think I have a memory, but I can't … That when Harvey was trying to raise money for whatever his business was called, I can't remember what his business is called, maybe he went there because Epstein was good at raising money. I just don't know. But I never saw them, I don't recall seeing Harvey in any of the properties.
Todd Blanche (02:53:01):
Let's just go a few more minutes and take a break. I know it's after lunch.
(02:53:06)
We talked several hours ago about your father and his business a little bit. After your father passed, do you know whether Mr. Epstein was involved in your family business that you know of?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:53:21):
Absolutely not in any respect. First of all, there was no family business left, start with that problem. The second one is my family didn't like him very much. They were busy dealing with their own problems. There was no relationship whatsoever. My mom and he got along quite well, that was it, but she's an old lady. He was nice to her.
Todd Blanche (02:53:51):
We're now being a little repetitive. But you're confident that, before you met Mr. Epstein, he didn't know your father, so he wouldn't have done business with your father's companies in the '80s either?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:54:06):
Absolutely not. I'm 100% sure of that. I never met him, I never saw him, I never heard his name. No, nothing.
Todd Blanche (02:54:18):
There's been a lot of conversations about whether Mr. Epstein maintained a list of people, like a book of famous people that he knew. It's called a black book, or a client list, or a list. Did you know of the existence of any such list?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:54:43):
There is no list, we'll start with that. The genesis of that story I can actually trace for you from its absolute inception if that is what you're interested in.
Todd Blanche (02:54:55):
It is.
Speaker 9 (02:54:55):
Well first, to be sure, there is no list, there's no client list, nothing like that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:55:01):
No, there is nothing like that.
Todd Blanche (02:55:02):
That you know of.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:55:04):
Obviously, yeah.
Todd Blanche (02:55:05):
Okay. You say you think you know the genesis, so go ahead. Tell us.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:55:12):
I'd like you to know that I have brought some supporting corroborative evidence-
Todd Blanche (02:55:17):
Well, tell me what it is too, and then we'll get the corroboration.
Speaker 10 (02:55:19):
Why don't you tell it first?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:55:19):
Okay.
Speaker 9 (02:55:20):
Do you want to take a break here? Because this a long-
Todd Blanche (02:55:21):
Oh, it's a long story.
Speaker 10 (02:55:21):
This is a story.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:55:22):
Yeah, this is not-
Todd Blanche (02:55:24):
Let's take a break, yeah. Yeah, let's take a break.
Speaker 9 (02:55:27):
All right, the time is 2:03. We're going to take a break right now.
(02:55:36)
All right, we're resuming the recorded proffer of Miss Maxwell. It is 2:16 on Thursday, July 24th. The recording device is now on.
Todd Blanche (02:55:46):
When we stopped to take a break, we were talking about what has been publicly discussed as a black book or the Epstein list, and that's where we are. You said you think you might know or that you're aware of the origin of this narrative?
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:56:12):
All right. I just want to reiterate again there is no list that I am aware of. I've never at any time at least during the period of time when I was present.
Todd Blanche (02:56:22):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:56:34):
The origin of this story I believe begins … Well, it has a beginning in 2009, and then it has a prequel, but we have to start in 2009. In 2009, Epstein is I think out of jail and there are civil suits taking place. Many of these are coming out of a disgraced law firm Rothstein Rosenfeldt and Adler. At that law firm is a lawyer who started there in April, May of 2009 called Brad Edwards. In 2009 allegedly the FBI gets a call in October of 2009 from Brad Edwards. He alleges tells them that he has come across a piece of evidence that belongs to Epstein that contains a list of all his clients and victims, underage girls, massage therapists, and the men who are having sex with them. Brad Edwards becomes a cooperating-
Speaker 10 (02:58:46):
Confidential.
Ghislaine Maxwell (02:58:48):
Confidential informant, sorry. Confidential informant for them. And in a sting operation, obtains the list from a former butler of Epstein's called Alfredo Rodriguez. It becomes evidence in the civil suit.
(02:59:22)
Alfredo Rodriguez is subsequently prosecuted for having an AK- 47, or something weird, some guns or something, and goes to trial. There's a criminal complaint that the FBI produce, and in that criminal complaint it says that Brad Edwards became aware of the list, we'll call it the list for the purposes of this, after Alfredo Rodriguez's two depositions that are held in Epstein's civil suit. It's in the FBI's affidavit that the evidence was collected and Brad Edwards became aware of it after the second deposition. It's in the criminal complaint.
(03:00:21)
The truth is different from what's in both the criminal complaint and in that FBI affidavit, and in Brad Edwards' own statements on the subject. The truth is that Alfredo Rodriguez was deposed twice, once in July and once in August. In the July deposition, told Brad Edwards that he had handwritten notes or a journal, whatever, in the deposition. Brad Edwards replies, "Well, we're going to come back for a second deposition." The second deposition takes place in August.
(03:01:06)
What this means is that Brad Edwards had access to the list from some time between July and August until when he actually called the FBI in October. We're talking six months or so. Rothstein's firm was raided a few days after the list went into the FBI's hands, and subsequently Rothstein himself was prosecuted for RICO and I believe went to jail for 50 years. As part of that RICO case, he admitted to on the record, I don't know whether he was prosecuted for creating fake settlements and fake evidence in Epstein's case.
(03:02:11)
In 2009, simultaneously whilst this was going on, my boyfriend Ted Waitt was asked for $10 million to keep me out of Epstein's civil suits. Up until then, I had not been in any of Epstein's civil suits. In fact, I wasn't even sure, save for the first time I was mentioned was by (censored), I was basically nowhere. Then Ted was called for this $10 million and had been shown, his people had been shown evidence that included the list, the flight logs, and various other pieces of evidence.
(03:03:13)
Now, we go into the prequel part of this story, so then it can tie to how this starts. In 2007, Epstein signs the non-prosecution agreement. He then fights the prosecution agreement or debates it through the DOJ, whatever happened there, and goes to the court in 2008 when it's accepted, or whatever that is. Villafana was the lead prosecutor, yes, in that case. She, I think, was not happy with the outcome, and utilized at that time Brad Edwards to file the CVRA case.
(03:04:22)
Now, what I have managed to understand from this is within the OPR itself, there is evidence where it says that Brad Edwards was the only lawyer that she was allowed to talk to, so I just want to preface that. The reason why I know that she went behind Acosta's back and everything else to do this is because Brad Edwards in a podcast made the revelation. What he says is that he never heard of the CVRA case before, and Villafana called him and told him to file it. The sole purpose of the CVRA was to overturn the non-prosecution agreement.
(03:05:17)
What I believe is that Villafana worked with Brad Edwards, he was the lawyer that she had selected as a pro bono lawyer for some of the victims. He was also working for Rothstein's firm that was under RICO investigation for that entire time, creating fake evidence in Epstein's case. And she had just filed hidden, secret, using Edwards to overturn the NPA by filing this CVRA case that's sole purpose was to overturn it. When he approached her with the list, this was part of the effort to utilize and find new evidence to support the overturning, either of the NPA and/or of a new case against Epstein.
(03:06:20)
Because Brad Edwards, or I don't know if it was Brad Edwards. Because Rothstein's firm asked my then boyfriend for $10 million to kick me out of suits that I had no knowledge of at that time whatsoever, I now know that the base of this story was a blackmail of a billionaire, because Ted Waitt was a multi-billionaire. He had everything. He was way, way more wealthy than Epstein, if anyone cares. That is the reason why Ted and I broke up, or was the basis of it.
(03:06:57)
That list was created, so then the masseuses that were on that list, I'd never heard of some of them. Not even from the civil suits that had come up since I've seen it. This is me now knowing what's on the list today. I believe that …
(03:07:20)
Oh, Alfredo Rodriguez. There's a metamorphosis of this list. The original statement that Brad Edwards makes that's in the documents contemporaneously is that it's pieces of paper that Alfredo has. It then morphs into something that Alfredo took, a book that Alfredo took from Epstein's computer. But there's no computer, certainly not in 2005 when this was allegedly taken, that came out as a book. Then it morphed into, at the time of my civil cases, into a book that was taken from my computer. Then it morphed into the Southern District of New York as a combination list of mine and Epstein's. That is a metamorphosis through documents that you can trace.
Todd Blanche (03:08:22):
In your mind, or from what you just described, there is a list, it's just manufactured. Have you seen the list, even faked?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:08:37):
I haven't seen it.
Todd Blanche (03:08:39):
I was confused-
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:08:40):
My thing is that what Brad Edwards says in all of these things, in the paperwork and whatnot. All this story is basically controlled by five people. These four alleged victims that speak about the list, and the blackmail, and the men, and the sex, and whatnot, and the lawyers. Now, the prosecutors, sorry. The Southern District of New York for sure, but no one else. None of these stories carry from any of the 44 alleged original victims. They never, ever say that they were farmed out to anybody.
Todd Blanche (03:09:13):
But the list itself.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:09:15):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (03:09:15):
Where is it?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:09:18):
There is no list, but Brad Edwards said that he created the list.
Todd Blanche (03:09:21):
That's what I was a little bit confused about.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:09:23):
Sorry. He created a list. In that book that Alfredo Rodriguez produced that became evidence, exhibit 52 in my trial, it has markings all over it. Circles, and dots, and whatnot. Brad Edwards says that he got Alfredo Rodriguez to mark up the book of all the people who were involved. It includes Alan Dershowitz, for the record, whose marked. I don't remember what it does with Donald Trump. I don't know, you'd have to look. I don't have it.
(03:09:54)
I believe-
Todd Blanche (03:09:54):
I see.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:10:01):
He marked, I don't know, somebody marked up that book of names. I think all the names of the people that they went for were originally selected between two sources. One was this alleged book of names, and one was also from the telephone logs that were collected from the house in Palm Beach. And just to finish it off, there is a note, I have some papers for you if you wanted them, where Brad Edwards says that he has a list of 25 men that he got money off.
Todd Blanche (03:10:42):
Okay. The list that everybody, the black book, the list, what you're saying is that you're exhibit 52 from your trial, which is more of an address book, a Rolodex-type thing, that Mr. Rodriguez, Alfredo Rodriguez, your understanding is that somewhere along the way, he went through and marked that list to say-
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:11:03):
I don't know where that book actually comes from.
Todd Blanche (03:11:05):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:11:05):
I don't know what that book is. That book is some type of a compilation. But what it is is it's just pieces of paper with type. You could have made a list. I could put … Well, I wouldn't be so rude.
Todd Blanche (03:11:21):
You're referring to something that's been public for a long … If we're thinking about the same thing, you're talking about, you're right, it's a bunch of different types of paper, or whatever. I only have a copy of it. With big parts of it redacted publicly because it has people's addresses and whatnot on it.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:11:37):
Yes, that's what I'm talking about.
Todd Blanche (03:11:37):
Okay. Yeah.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:11:41):
Oh, perfect. Yes. You will find-
Todd Blanche (03:11:46):
We're looking at exhibit 52 now.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:11:47):
Okay, you're looking at exhibit 52. The one they produced, the Southern District of New York actually produced a book for me to say as evidence, the actual thing it was. It has marks, it has tabs, it has things, it has names I've never seen. That list was basically the names that they choose to produce at trial.
(03:12:11)
Now, in Rothstein Adler's firm, I also have some documents where Rothstein, his original scheme at Rothstein Adler was to place prostitutes. He had a bar, a dance-y bar where he had girls. I believe he would use them and put them as fake secretaries in people's offices. Then she might touch, or he might touch her or something, and boom, he got $25,000 for that. Those girls, I'm not saying that those are the girls that came in Epstein's case necessarily.
Todd Blanche (03:12:57):
But again, separating the evidence that came in at your trial, and what you just talked about with Brad Edwards and Mr. Rodriguez. During the time that you were with Mr. Epstein, and even in the 2000s when you were around less frequently, you never observed or you never saw any sort of list or black book, or a list of individuals who linked to certain masseuses-
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:13:33):
Absolutely not.
Todd Blanche (03:13:34):
… or anything like that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:13:35):
Absolutely no. There is no list. There is no … I'm not aware of any blackmail. I never heard that, I never saw it, and I never imagined it.
Todd Blanche (03:13:55):
While we're on this topic. Again, I know we're jumping around and we've been going at it for a while, so I apologize. There's recently been reports about a birthday book that you assembled for Mr. Epstein, I think for his 50th birthday in 2003.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:14:12):
That's true.
Todd Blanche (03:14:13):
What do you know about that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:14:22):
My mom did a birthday book for my father at his 60th. When Epstein would talk about his 50th he'd say, "Oh, I don't know what I'm going to day." I said, "Well, there's a nice thing." I said, "My mom did this book for my dad." He said, "I love that idea." He said, "Can you help coordinate it?" He organized, he called a lot of the people himself. I coordinated the putting together of the book. In some instances, I called people to ask them to contribute.
Todd Blanche (03:14:55):
What was in the book? What was the ask of the people you called?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:15:00):
It's his 50th birthday, same thing you'd want on a piece of paper.
Todd Blanche (03:15:02):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:15:04):
Nothing more than that.
Todd Blanche (03:15:06):
It was an obvious question. Basically, folks were invited to send something to you to celebrate his birthday.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:15:13):
Yes. To say, "Happy birthday, have a wonderful day," or something else. There was no ask. I wasn't responsible for everybody in that book. There were people that he would ask himself to contribute.
Todd Blanche (03:15:31):
Do you remember specific names of individuals who did send letters or who did contribute?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:15:39):
It's been so long. I want to tell you that I don't remember. I honestly don't remember.
Todd Blanche (03:15:46):
The article talks about several names, but including the focus of the article which was on Donald Trump. Do you remember President Trump submitting a letter, or a card, or a note?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:15:59):
I don't.
Todd Blanche (03:16:03):
Well, do you remember seeing that book or any portion of the letters in your discovery of New York?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:16:14):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (03:16:15):
What do you remember seeing?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:16:16):
I remember there were some portions of that book. But what surprised me … Yeah. What surprised me was how few there were because I thought, "If you had those, where are the rest?" There was none of Mr. Trump.
Todd Blanche (03:16:38):
In your discovery?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:16:39):
In my discovery, sorry. President Trump, there was nothing from President Trump.
Todd Blanche (03:16:42):
Do you remember, separate and apart from your discovery, do you remember one way or the other whether President Trump submitted a letter for this 50th birthday?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:16:52):
I do not remember.
Todd Blanche (03:16:55):
The article that references the letter talks about a picture of a naked woman, or something like that. Do you have any recollection of that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:17:06):
I do not. Just no, I don't.
Todd Blanche (03:17:16):
What do you remember seeing from your discovery around the book? Like you said, portions of it or some of the pages, what do you remember?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:17:24):
I remember there were maybe … I just want to say about the discovery that I had about, maybe this is an exaggeration, I'm not sure, but in my mind it's about close to five million documents. It was a lot. Of that giant document dump that I received, maybe as much as 30 to 35 percent, I was never able to access. This is documented at the court. I cannot say that I saw everything because I didn't.
Todd Blanche (03:18:00):
Yeah, okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:18:01):
I just want you to know. I think that that was by design.
Todd Blanche (03:18:05):
But you do remember-
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:18:08):
I do remember some pages.
Todd Blanche (03:18:09):
… seeing some pages of that book?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:18:10):
I do, yes.
Todd Blanche (03:18:11):
Okay. Do you remember which pages you saw? From who had written those letters? Or no?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:18:18):
I really don't remember.
Todd Blanche (03:18:19):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:18:19):
I'm sorry.
Todd Blanche (03:18:19):
It's okay. The same questions we've asked about some other individuals. Did you meet Bill Gates over the years?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:18:33):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (03:18:34):
Because of your relationship with Mr. Epstein or separate?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:18:37):
That one, well, I went to the tech conference. I went to a tech conference and I actually spoke at the tech conference. Not the main stage, the substage. I also gave several TEDxes. I met him there, but we were [inaudible 03:18:52]. I actually did meet him because I knew his, I don't know if it was his chief of staff, or whoever, Boris. I met him I think once. I may have met him actually at 71st Street. I may have once. I don't remember if I met him there or at a restaurant, I don't remember. That would have been because of Epstein because Epstein was friendly with Boris. That's all I remember.
Todd Blanche (03:19:22):
Do you know whether Mr. Gates traveled with Mr. Epstein on his plane to any of his houses?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:19:30):
That friendship was into the late 2000s, so if I met him, like I said, I went to Epstein's house maybe once or twice, maybe I met him there. I don't remember.
Todd Blanche (03:19:40):
You don't-
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:19:41):
I would know if I had been on Epstein's plane.
Todd Blanche (03:19:45):
You don't recall ever being on the plane with him flying to the island or to anywhere?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:19:53):
No.
Todd Blanche (03:19:53):
Do you somebody named Reid Hoffman?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:19:55):
I do.
Todd Blanche (03:19:55):
Whose that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:19:57):
Reid's a Silicon Valley guy.
Todd Blanche (03:19:59):
He's what?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:19:59):
Silicon Valley.
Todd Blanche (03:20:02):
How do you know him?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:20:04):
Through my friends in San Francisco. I used to have a very close friend who lives in San Francisco whose part of that whole … I have several, actually. Or, had.
Todd Blanche (03:20:13):
Is that a relationship you have separate and apart from Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:20:17):
Separate.
Todd Blanche (03:20:18):
Do you know whether Mr. Epstein had a relationship with Reid Hoffman?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:20:23):
I don't know.
Todd Blanche (03:20:24):
Did you ever observe Mr. Hoffman flying anywhere with you or Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:20:29):
No.
Todd Blanche (03:20:29):
Or getting massages?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:20:31):
No.
Todd Blanche (03:20:31):
No? Okay. There's a list of multiple masseuses that is floating around, I think you had it in your discovery. I think you were just talking about that. That list, do you know how that list was created?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:21:05):
No. All that stuff that came out of that book, I now find suspect.
Todd Blanche (03:21:12):
As part of the story you just told us?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:21:13):
Yes. Now, I'm not saying it's all fake.
Todd Blanche (03:21:15):
Yeah.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:21:16):
I don't know what's real and what's not.
Todd Blanche (03:21:17):
Understood.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:21:18):
I don't know what name is true. Now that it's been, to my mind anyway, now that it has been without a doubt contaminated and possibly fraudulent, I don't know. Obviously, the numbers that I recognize in my own, those are real. But how it actually ended up put together and compiled, and the purposes for it for which then they blackmailed my boyfriend, now I'm just, no.
Todd Blanche (03:21:44):
Over the years when you were serving as the general manager, so the mid-'90s all the way into the 2000s, did you or do you know whether anyone maintained a list of all the masseuses, a running list?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:22:00):
There's three ways. I know that the house itself, John Alessi had a Rolodex that he kept the names and numbers of all the people that came to the house so that he could call. Because I only was with Epstein, even at best, half the time. When I was there, he had his chief of staff who could find whatever he needed, and when I wasn't there, he had to rely on somebody else. Be that John Alessi, or whoever else. Everybody, whoever was traveling with him or wherever he was, he needed somebody else to access information. He had an assistant, a chief, who was his secretary who would be the one that would update his computer. Like everybody has an address book.
Todd Blanche (03:22:55):
But was what you're describing … That makes sense. Was that a list of masseuses, or a list of people that might need to be contacted, which would necessarily include a lot of masseuses?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:23:11):
The latter.
Todd Blanche (03:23:20):
Did you update? Were you one of the people that would add names to it? If a masseuse came and leaves, and Mr. Epstein says, "Yes, she was good." How was the list maintained or who maintained it?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:23:34):
Typically, no.
Todd Blanche (03:23:34):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:23:35):
Because there would be an assistant who would do that. Plus, Epstein would not allow me to answer the telephone ever, or maintain or keep any of messages in the office or at the house. Typically, because I wouldn't be the one. Could I say to you I never did it? No, of course not, because that just seems ludicrous. But
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:24:00):
As a rule of thumb, the answer would be no.
Todd Blanche (03:24:07):
During the 2007, '08, '09, the investigation out of the Southern District of Florida, so you said that you weren't contacted by law enforcement?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:24:17):
I was not.
Todd Blanche (03:24:18):
After Mr. Epstein was charged, did you have conversations with him about the investigation?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:24:25):
He never talked to me about it.
Todd Blanche (03:24:28):
Did you-
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:24:30):
I mean, let's put it this way. If he did, I have no recollection of it. I mean, I'm sure he must have said, "This is all…" whatever he said, or, "It's nothing," or whatever. I mean, I just don't have any memory. I was with Ted. I was gone. Plus, I just didn't want to know either, I suppose.
Todd Blanche (03:24:55):
So you don't know firsthand why the U.S. attorney in Florida made the deal that he did, meaning you weren't part of that discussion along the way? Mr. didn't say, "I'm getting a good deal," or, "Something's happening with the case that's very good"? To the extent you know anything about it, it's just from what you've heard or read from others, not from Mr. Epstein; is that right?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:25:21):
He never talked about the non-prosecution directly with me, no. But he did-
David Markus (03:25:27):
But it's still enforceable as to her.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:25:28):
Yeah.
David Markus (03:25:28):
Get it out there.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:25:31):
I mean, he never said, "Hey, are you happy with this deal?" like that. But I understood. He never enjoined me to the MPA. But I understand that he included me specifically, and I'll tell you why.
David Markus (03:25:49):
Well, it's okay. You don't need to get into that.
Todd Blanche (03:25:52):
No, no. Yeah. I don't want to talk about what's on appeal. I'm just-
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:25:56):
No. Well, I wasn't-
Todd Blanche (03:25:57):
The reason for my question, just to be… I'm not trying to hide something, but there's a very strong belief that he got a very good deal and that he should have been sentenced to more time or got a different sentence from the Feds than a non-prosecution agreement. And I'm not asking you to opine on that, but I'm wondering whether he ever talked to you about that. But it sounds like he didn't.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:26:24):
No.
Todd Blanche (03:26:24):
No.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:26:24):
That he got a good deal? No. Well, his comments that I've read was that he didn't get a good deal, and I think that when he fought it so hard is because he didn't think he did.
Todd Blanche (03:26:37):
When he was serving his sentence, were you around during that time, like when he was allowed to leave during the day or travel during the day?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:26:49):
I never called him. I never saw him, and I never went to the jail.
Todd Blanche (03:26:53):
So I'm going to ask you questions that you shouldn't read into them. I just want to know whether they resonate with you. Have you ever had any contact with any representative, that you know of, from Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:27:10):
Can you ask me that again?
Todd Blanche (03:27:12):
Have you ever had any contact with an individual that you understand to be from Mossad, an Israeli intelligence agency?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:27:20):
Well, not deliberately.
Todd Blanche (03:27:21):
Pardon me?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:27:22):
Not deliberately.
Todd Blanche (03:27:23):
Okay. We asked this, we talked about this a little bit earlier, but just to put a finer point on it, were you ever told, do you ever think, that Mr. Epstein was getting any money from any intelligence agency, including Mossad?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:27:40):
Well, I don't believe so, but I wouldn't know. I mean, I would be very surprised if he did. I don't think so. No.
Todd Blanche (03:27:52):
We've talked about a lot of names and I'm sure there's some that we haven't covered. Are there any foreign nationals… So right now we've talked about some British, the Royal family a little bit, and maybe high society folks in Britain. Were there any international businessmen or politicians that had a very close relationship or a close relationship with Mr. Epstein, that we haven't already talked about?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:28:26):
Off the top of my head, I can think of Ehud Barak.
Todd Blanche (03:28:34):
You said that Mr. Epstein, at some point in the mid to late '90s, he started taking testosterone. Did you ever know him to take any other drugs?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:28:46):
No. I mean, he took pills for his heart, I think, but I don't… No other, no substances.
Todd Blanche (03:28:56):
Do you know anything about his heart condition? I know we talked about this at 9:45 this morning, but do you know anything about his heart condition beyond that you understood he had a heart condition that affected his ability to have sex?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:29:11):
Other than what he told me, no. He never shared anything, but he did take pills. I don't know anything above that. And like I said, he did the testosterone, which made him mean.
Todd Blanche (03:29:23):
And we're jumping around a little bit.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:29:24):
All right.
Todd Blanche (03:29:24):
Sorry. Do you know someone named Donald Barr?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:29:31):
No.
Todd Blanche (03:29:31):
He, I can represent to you, was a former headmaster of the Dalton School, which you mentioned earlier.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:29:37):
All right.
Todd Blanche (03:29:39):
Do you remember any conversations with Epstein about a book that Mr. Barr wrote called Space Relations?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:29:49):
I've never heard of that.
Todd Blanche (03:29:49):
About aliens and sex?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:29:56):
No.
Todd Blanche (03:29:57):
Okay. Well, have you ever met the former Attorney General of the United States, Bill Barr?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:30:01):
No.
Todd Blanche (03:30:02):
Do you remember whether Mr. Epstein knew him or whether his name ever came up in conversations you had with Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:30:10):
I don't recall any.
Todd Blanche (03:30:18):
Okay. Did you have a relationship or know… I'm using "relationship," but I appreciate you don't like that word. Did you know Mr. Epstein's brother, Mark Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:30:31):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (03:30:31):
How did you know him?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:30:32):
Through Jeffrey.
Todd Blanche (03:30:35):
How would you describe your relationship; close, friendly?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:30:38):
My personal?
Todd Blanche (03:30:39):
Yes.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:30:42):
Not that close, but friendly enough.
Todd Blanche (03:30:48):
How was Jeffrey Epstein's relationship with his brother, Mark, from what you observed?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:30:54):
I mean, they were brotherly, but I think that… I don't know. I don't know. They had periods when they were closer and then when they weren't. I think sometimes Epstein found his brother irritating.
Todd Blanche (03:31:19):
And I think I know the answers, given what you just said about Bill Barr, but did you ever hear, from Mr. Epstein or anybody else, that Bill Barr had any role in Mr. Epstein getting a good plea deal in Florida or any role in that process with Mr. Acosta?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:31:38):
I never heard that.
Todd Blanche (03:31:44):
I think you said this in an interview, but if I'm wrong, forgive me. Do you have a view of Mr. Epstein of whether he committed suicide or whether something else happened?
David Markus (03:32:04):
Can we take a break?
Todd Blanche (03:32:04):
Want to take a break?
David Markus (03:32:04):
Yeah, yeah.
Todd Blanche (03:32:05):
Yeah, sure. Yeah, we can take a break.
David Markus (03:32:05):
Because-
Todd Blanche (03:32:06):
Yeah, sure. Actually, it's a good time to take a break anyway, because this'll be the last one of the day.
Spencer Horn (03:32:10):
All right. So we're going to take a break at… It's 2:53, Thursday, July 24th.
Todd Blanche (03:32:16):
Thank you.
Spencer Horn (03:32:17):
We are continuing with the recorded proffer of Ms. Maxwell. The time is now 3:10 p.m., Thursday, July 24th.
Todd Blanche (03:32:30):
My colleagues alerted me to a couple of questions I think I may have forgotten to ask you. One is… Sorry, I'm just going through my notes. Well, we talked few minutes ago about this birthday book that there's press about. I understand you don't remember anything with President Trump or a lot about the book anyway. Do you remember asking President Trump to submit a letter for that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:33:01):
I do not.
Todd Blanche (03:33:04):
And do you remember, would you have been the one to do that or would somebody else have done that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:33:16):
I did ask some people. I don't remember Mr. Trump. I don't remember who I did ask, but Epstein also asked people himself directly.
Todd Blanche (03:33:23):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:33:23):
So it could have happened that way if it happened at all.
Todd Blanche (03:33:30):
I'm trying to find on the… Where is that guy? Where is that?
Diego Pestana (03:33:40):
You mentioned Ehud Barak.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:33:42):
Yes.
Diego Pestana (03:33:42):
What was his involvement?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:33:46):
This would've been in the later 2000s. So I do not know how they met, but I do know that they… I don't know if friendly would be the right word. I don't know that, but I know that they saw each other, and only because my father… Anything that touches Israel or the state of Israel, I'm always interested in, because my father loved Israel, and so I pay attention to it. And we have ties to Israel.
Todd Blanche (03:34:24):
When you said it was later, though-
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:34:25):
Ties meaning friends and family relations.
Todd Blanche (03:34:31):
Mr. Barak, Prime Minister Barak, do you know what the nature of his relationship was with Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:34:37):
I don't.
Todd Blanche (03:34:40):
Were you ever with them together?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:34:44):
I have a memory of meeting Ehud, but I don't know if he was with Epstein or… I don't remember. I just know that I did see him, and I'm trying, struggling, to remember the context around it. I'm sure it happened, but it must've been very brief because I don't have any serious memory of it, any deep memory of that.
Todd Blanche (03:35:06):
And maybe this is obvious from-
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:35:07):
And maybe it comes also because I've read it in the press. That may be something that brought it to my memory. I mean, also, I think the press has been very contaminating, so it's hard sometimes to separate those stories from your memory sometimes.
Todd Blanche (03:35:24):
Do you know a British gymnast by the name of Heather Mann?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:35:29):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (03:35:30):
Did she-
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:35:32):
I didn't know she was a gymnast.
Todd Blanche (03:35:33):
Oh, okay. I'm reading something that says she was a gymnast.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:35:36):
Okay.
Todd Blanche (03:35:36):
But please don't assume that that's correct.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:35:39):
Okay. Okay.
Todd Blanche (03:35:39):
This is based upon my words.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:35:40):
Okay.
Todd Blanche (03:35:42):
Did she ever travel with you and/or Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:35:45):
I think, yeah, she did, actually. I think that she might have been one of Mr. Epstein's girlfriends at some point.
Todd Blanche (03:35:52):
Again, I know we're talking about time periods that are vast. What time period would that have been? Like since 2000?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:36:03):
I want to say, I don't know, could be the '90s. I don't know. But I mean, listen, there are people that pop out of the woodwork all the time. I just saw one on TV saying she was his girlfriend in '93 and '94. So I mean, he obviously was very busy.
Leah Saffian (03:36:24):
Or she's lying.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:36:25):
Or there's that.
Todd Blanche (03:36:26):
Did someone named Mark Middleton-
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:36:30):
Yes, I remember him.
Todd Blanche (03:36:32):
Who was that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:36:34):
He was in Mr. Clinton's administration, President Clinton's, I think.
Todd Blanche (03:36:39):
Do you know him?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:36:40):
Well, I met him. I met him through Mr. Epstein.
Todd Blanche (03:36:45):
And from what you observed, was he a friend or business acquaintance of Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:36:57):
I mean, I only saw him a handful of times, but I did see him with him. I mean, he seemed friendly. I don't know if I would characterize… I mean, only having seen him briefly, I don't know how to characterize that.
Todd Blanche (03:37:09):
Do you know whether he flew on airplanes with Mr. Epstein? Did he visit the island? Do you know anything about that or their relationship as it relates to that?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:37:15):
I don't have any recollection of seeing Mark Middleton at the island.
Todd Blanche (03:37:22):
How about former U.S. Senator George Mitchell?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:37:24):
Yeah, I do remember George.
Todd Blanche (03:37:26):
What do you remember about him?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:37:27):
I traveled with him. We went to the most memorable affair. Well, I was friendly with his wife, start with that, with Heather. And Heather was in New York, so I hung out with her a few times. We had dinner, this, and I was just friendly, I would say-
Todd Blanche (03:37:45):
Did-
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:37:46):
… separately from her husband. I was friends with Heather. I met Heather through her husband, but we became friends.
Todd Blanche (03:37:52):
You became friends with-
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:37:53):
Heather.
Todd Blanche (03:37:54):
… Heather?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:37:54):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (03:37:55):
Was Mr. Epstein friends with Mr. Mitchell?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:37:58):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (03:37:59):
Did they travel together besides New York? Did they travel to the island or to New Mexico?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:38:05):
I don't remember George ever at the island, but the most memorable trip I do recall with Senator was to Italy.
Todd Blanche (03:38:12):
Was to where?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:38:12):
To Italy.
Todd Blanche (03:38:12):
Ah, okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:38:14):
We went to Rome.
Todd Blanche (03:38:16):
As the four of you? So Heather and Mr. Mitchell and you and Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:38:22):
That's my recollection.
Todd Blanche (03:38:23):
And what were you there for?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:38:26):
Well, the most memorable aspect of that trip is we went to the Vatican. It was extraordinary. And the most extraordinary thing was going to the archives and holding Henry VIII's document to the Pope asking for his divorce.
Todd Blanche (03:38:47):
Do you know the former president of Colombia, Andrés Pastrana?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:38:50):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (03:38:50):
How do you know him?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:38:57):
I met Andrés Pastrana in a pub in Dublin.
Todd Blanche (03:39:01):
And did he travel with Mr. Epstein, that you know?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:39:12):
I don't know if he was ever on the plane. I don't think he ever came to the island. But I went two places with Andrés Pastrana. One was to Colombia, and Epstein came to that, and the other was to Cuba, and Epstein was there, and Pastrana, I think, was there.
Todd Blanche (03:39:39):
And what were the purposes of traveling to Colombia, then Cuba?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:39:51):
I'm a helicopter pilot, and Andrés is a helicopter pilot, and we just became friends. And I flew a Black Hawk in Colombia.
Todd Blanche (03:40:10):
And how about to Cuba?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:40:14):
I have a friend of mine who was the cigar distributor for Montecristo's, maybe. I can't remember which cigar it was. And so we went there, and he organized the trip, and we met Fidel Castro.
Todd Blanche (03:40:34):
When was that, approximately?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:40:48):
Had to be 2002, 2003, something like that, I think.
Todd Blanche (03:40:57):
There's some more names that we might talk about tomorrow with the same type of questions, but as far as a catch-all, there's been a tremendous amount of public information about all kinds of names, including some of the folks we talked about today, and their relationship with Mr. Epstein and/or you. For any of the folks that we've talked about today, did you observe them doing anything improper with Mr. Epstein, whether with masseuses, or with women or girls who were traveling, or at the residence that they were at, or at the parties that they were at?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:41:39):
I did not ever at any time see that.
Todd Blanche (03:41:45):
And for any of the names we've talked about today, and then tomorrow we'll about some more, but for today, do you recall having any conversations with anybody else where they reported to you that they had seen something that one of these individuals had done, whether someone else that works with Mr. Epstein or somebody that observed something?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:42:04):
If anybody had ever reported anything… First of all, the answer to that is no. And also, I just want to be clear that had anybody ever reported anything illegal or disgusting like that, I would have immediately done something. And I never heard it. I never saw it. And no one ever, ever, ever complained to me, or tears, nothing like that.
Todd Blanche (03:42:25):
Okay. All right. So we took a break when we were talking about Mr. Epstein and his death. Oh, bless you.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:42:32):
I think I keep doing-
Todd Blanche (03:42:33):
That's okay. Take your time. So Mr. Epstein and his death. So you were not obviously at the MCC during that time, correct?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:42:52):
Thank you.
David Markus (03:42:53):
Oh, thanks. I thought you were giving it to me.
Todd Blanche (03:42:56):
I see.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:42:57):
I've got something that blew up my nose.
Todd Blanche (03:42:59):
Just take some water.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:42:59):
If I could blow off-
Todd Blanche (03:43:00):
It's okay. No problem. You were not at the MCC during that time, correct?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:43:06):
I was not.
Todd Blanche (03:43:07):
So you're going to tell us what you believe, but I just want to make sure I understand. Your basis for belief is kind of what you've read and seen and your knowledge of Mr. Epstein for the many years you knew him, right?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:43:24):
Actually, there's a third component.
Todd Blanche (03:43:26):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:43:26):
The answer to that is yes.
Todd Blanche (03:43:27):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:43:27):
And there's a third component to that, which is having experienced now the mismanagement and inefficiencies and total dereliction of duty at the Bureau of Prisons.
Todd Blanche (03:43:44):
From BOP, from the Bureau of Prisons?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:43:46):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (03:43:46):
Okay, fair. Okay. So what I do want to be careful about is asking you to speculate, because anybody can do that. And I don't think that's fair to you or anybody else to ask you to give us your kind of opinion. The third point you say, which is kind of a failure by the BOP, there's a OIG report, there's an SDNY investigation about that. So you think he did not die by suicide, given all the things we just talked about?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:44:26):
I do not believe he died by suicide, no.
Todd Blanche (03:44:32):
Do you have any speculation or view of who killed him?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:44:37):
No, I don't.
Todd Blanche (03:44:39):
And I ask that because if you don't believe that there's any truth to the allegations of blackmail, or that he had a list, or that he had reasons to have people hate him, why would somebody kill him in prison?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:45:01):
Well, in prison, where I am, they will kill you or somebody can pay a prisoner to kill you for… $25 worth of commissary is about the going rate for a hit with a lock today.
Todd Blanche (03:45:31):
So that goes to the third reason, which is the mismanagement or-
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:45:38):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (03:45:38):
… the shortfallings or shortcomings of the Bureau of Prisons.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:45:41):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (03:45:43):
Which is a little bit different than my question is, which is do you think there was somebody on the outside of prison, so putting aside what could happen on the inside, on the outside of prison who wanted him dead so badly that he would've or she would have caused him to be killed on the inside?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:46:05):
I don't see that. I think is it possible? Of course it's possible, but I don't know of any reason why, and I don't believe in the blackmail or in any of this. I don't think Epstein had a hit like that. If it is indeed murder, I believe it was an internal situation.
Todd Blanche (03:46:23):
Yeah. So you don't have any reason, first-hand knowledge, or even speculation, it sounds like, to think that he was killed to silence him or to keep him from going public about people he knew about?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:46:42):
I don't, no, because I think that is just part of the story that's been created that started back in 2008, '09.
Todd Blanche (03:46:50):
Okay. Yeah, I mean, that's the point. I don't think there's value in talking… There's a lot of information about what happened at the MCC and-
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:47:03):
Yeah. No, that's fine.
Todd Blanche (03:47:04):
But what is important to me is the idea that he didn't die by suicide. That's one thing. But if to the extent that folks believe that he was murdered to keep him quiet or because he had information on rich and powerful people, that's what I… Do you have any reason to believe that that's true?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:47:31):
I do not have any reason to believe that. And I also think it's ludicrous, because if that… I also happen to think if that is what they wanted, they would've had plenty of opportunity when he wasn't in jail.
Todd Blanche (03:47:39):
Yeah.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:47:39):
And if they were worried about blackmail or anything from him, he would've been a very easy target.
Todd Blanche (03:47:50):
So we've talked about a lot of time, all the way up through 2009, '10, and then the time after Mr. Epstein was arrested. When's the last time you spoke with him?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:48:10):
Maybe 2016, 2017. Maybe 2016. 2015, 2016, 2017, in that area, I believe.
Todd Blanche (03:48:22):
When you're thinking about that last time, was that you had been talking to him a lot and then you stopped, or was that a one-off time and it was infrequent at that point?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:48:31):
I really wasn't in communication. The only communications I had with him was with regards to the civil suits, the civil suit that I found myself in, the defamation suit I found myself in. I needed help. I needed information, and I didn't have what I needed. And so that was really what… What drove it was me trying to get myself out of this situation, which ultimately led to where I am today. I don't remember even if I stopped talking to him before that. I thought he was angry with me anyway. He didn't like what I did, and I wasn't interested in what he had to say to me, and-
Todd Blanche (03:49:18):
What did you think he was angry with you about?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:49:20):
I think he was angry that I had even said that I had referred to her being a liar. He said I should have not said anything, but…
Todd Blanche (03:49:35):
The civil suits that were ongoing before Mr. Epstein's death-
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:49:40):
Yes.
Todd Blanche (03:49:42):
… did your lawyers coordinate with his lawyers, like in discovery and things like that or anything?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:49:48):
I don't think we coordinated in… I'm not sure.
Todd Blanche (03:49:51):
Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:49:52):
I don't want to misspeak.
Todd Blanche (03:49:54):
Yeah.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:49:55):
There was some degree of communication, for sure. I just don't know the degree that that took place. So definitely, I mean, I was definitely hoping for him to be more helpful. And I was definitely… Coordinating is not a good word because that sounds like I was trying to align myself. That's not where we were going here, but I was definitely trying to get help as in documents or information that I could use to defend myself. That's 100 percent true. And the degree to which that took place, I don't recall. There was definitely some of that, though. I don't want to mislead you.
Todd Blanche (03:50:37):
We touched on this earlier, but I don't think we really ran it to ground maybe as much as we could. Going up through that time, so in the '16, '17, '18, up until the time he's arrested, had your view or your understanding of what had happened changed? Meaning did you believe that in the late '90s or early 2000s when he started behaving much differently, did you believe what you were hearing about him at that point?
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:51:19):
My views, I didn't like the people he was with anyway, so I don't find… How do I say this? I like people my age or older, and I don't find the society of or the companionship of younger people, who are younger people, I suppose, really that enjoyable. So I don't like the company that he chose to be with, and so I just would find it boring and fundamentally uninteresting. That's probably the nicest way I can say it.
Todd Blanche (03:52:07):
Yeah. Okay. So I think what we should do is just spend a few minutes talking about tomorrow.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:52:19):
Okay.
Todd Blanche (03:52:19):
Everything was great today. I think that it was very helpful, and I appreciate you trying to be as complete as you can. I think tomorrow… You've said a few things today about materials that you brought. When we're done, we'll give you a few minutes with Mr. Markus, if there's things that you want to show him that you think we should see.
(03:52:44)
Like I said, I'm not asking you to corroborate anything. If I was asking you to corroborate something, I would tell you. But if there's something you don't think that the government has seen or you think that is important for me to see, let Mr. Markus know and he can share it with me.
(03:53:03)
Tomorrow, we'll certainly have some follow-on questions when we all think about tonight, and I think you will too. We can all think about stuff we've talked about. We've covered a lot of different areas. I do want to talk more about you. So by design, today we wanted to focus on Mr. Epstein and talk about, well, everything under the sun that we've gone through today. I do think it's important, when we all evaluate what you've said today and your story, to also understand why you're here, right? So you were indicted, you were charged, you went to trial. And I want to do that in a way that gives you an opportunity to say your piece or to say what you haven't said before. But also understanding that there was people who took the witness stand and swore to tell the truth and testified about you, and what you did, and what they think you saw, and what they heard you say.
(03:54:12)
I said to Mr. Markus, I'm not trying to create a she said, she said situation, or he said, she said situation. But I do want to hear from you about your conduct, because it's important, I think, when we evaluate what you say and how you say it and your recollection of things to talk about that. So we'll do that tomorrow.
(03:54:41)
I want to talk about the circumstances leading up to your arrest. There's a lot of, I think, misinformation, or there's a lot of information out there that I don't know whether it's misinformation, but about the time from 2019 up until the time that you were arrested. And then, like I said, that'll take us through lunch tomorrow, and then we'll be done.
(03:55:06)
I don't have a plan. I didn't know that I was coming here until this week, okay? We don't have a schedule of what happens next or what happens… But that's not a negative thing. So you shouldn't take the lack of a next step as anything other than we don't have a next step yet.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:55:30):
May I say something?
Todd Blanche (03:55:30):
Of course, yes.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:55:31):
I just would like to put out there that I also focused on how I think the president got swept into some of this unnecessarily, by the way. And I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and I certainly don't subscribe to all of everything that I see, but I do believe that there is animus in some areas that may have contributed to the use of the president, to harm him, that I find deeply offensive. And whilst I can't obviously say definitively that that is what it is, I would like to show you what I see so that you can evaluate it and do with that as you see fit, if it needs to be addressed. I've seen it, it struck me, and I would like to give it to you for what it's worth.
Todd Blanche (03:56:31):
Sure. Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:56:32):
Does that seem something that I can-
Todd Blanche (03:56:34):
Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, of course.
Ghislaine Maxwell (03:56:34):
Because I don't like that.
Todd Blanche (03:56:38):
Yeah. Okay, that's fine. That's great. Okay. So why don't we stop for today? I'll give you a little bit of time to chat, and then see you in the morning.
David Markus (03:56:48):
Thanks now.
Todd Blanche (03:56:48):
Great. Thank you.
Spencer Horn (03:56:50):
This will conclude the recorded proffer interview for Thursday, July 24th. We will continue tomorrow, Friday, July 25th. The time is 3:34.