Mitt Romney Full Interview on Person to Person Transcript

Hi, I am Norah O’Donnell, and this is Person To Person. Our guest today is Mitt Romney.

What a wonderful success we’ve all enjoyed together.

Mitt Romney represents Utah in the United States Senate, but the 76-year-old was once the Republican Party’s nominee for President, losing to Barack Obama in 2012. Brought up in the Mormon church, Romney’s faith has guided him through his entire life and political career. He considers his wife and his top advisor. A successful businessman, Romney was brought in to turn around the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City. The success of the games led to a run for governor of Massachusetts. Now, the man who was once the standard-bearer of the Republican Party is a vocal critic.

Here’s what I know. Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud.

Romney recently announced he would not seek reelection to his Senate seat. There’s a new book about his life. Romney: A Reckoning. He gave hundreds of text messages, emails, and diary entries to journalists McKay Coppins to summarize his three decades in politics. So we sat down in Washington with Mitt and Ann Romney for an intimate Person To Person conversation.

(01:28)
Why did you decide to participate in this biography of you?

Well, at some point I thought someone may want to write about my experience. I’d intended to do it myself. And then I recognized I can’t be objective about my own life, but I may have gone a little overboard, because I gave the author all of my journals. And now that I’ve read the book, it’s like, “Oh, did I really say that about this person? Oh my goodness.” So it’s a little more revealing than I’d expected, but nonetheless, it’s something you could learn about. I remember my dad when he lost his campaign for President in 1968. He said, “My campaign was like a miniskirt, short and revealing.”

And if you had to sum up your career in politics, what would it be?

I’ll let other people decide that, but I hope, in my own view, that my legacy with my children and grandchildren is that their dad and their grandfather fought for what he believed. Sometimes I was wrong. Sometimes my point of view changed because I was acquainted with new facts, but that I stood for what I believed was right and that I had backbone.

Do you recognize your own party?

I’m in a tiny, tiny slice of my party now. I mean, I don’t, in many respects, have a home in the Republican Party today. The party is much more populist. The party has attracted all sorts of folks who used to be Democrats and Independents. They’ve come into the Republican Party drawn by a message of populism, and in some respects, resentment and anger. And I’m still a Republican, because I want to bring us back to the kinds of values that have allowed us to succeed in the past, but we’ll see where we go in the future.

Did you consider running again for President in 2016?

Oh, people in the Senate always consider running for President. I just got a message from one of my grandkids, a long message, about why I should get in now. A very thorough analysis. It’s like, it’s absurd, of course, because I’m not going to do that. But yeah, you consider that, and not seriously in this case. In 2024 it’s not something I seriously consider. But yeah, I’ve looked at different times. But the reality is two strikes and you’re out in politics, not three.

You were quoted in the book as saying, “A very large portion of my party really doesn’t believe in the Constitution.” How did you come to that damning conclusion?

Well, when former President Trump said we should set aside the Constitution and reappoint him as President, why you had Republicans cheer that. It’s like, wait a second. This is the leader of our party saying we should put aside the Constitution. How can you believe you’re following the Constitution if that’s the case? It’s an outrage. It violates the peaceful transfer of power, which has been characteristic of our country from the very earliest days. So yeah, I think the evidence has been in a pretty plain view for people across the country.

So how is it that Donald Trump, the leading candidate for the Republican Party for President?

I don’t begin to be able to understand how it is so many people can accept the dishonesties that have been spoken by Donald Trump. I don’t know how it is people go along with that, but they do. And I think in some respects it’s like, “Well, there’s our team and their team. We’re going to cheer with whatever our team says and say that we believe it.”

No way you’ll run for President in 2024?

No, I can’t imagine any circumstance. Perhaps if Godzilla comes in and removes all the other candidates and so forth. But other than Godzilla stepping in, no, I’m not running for President. Not giving it any thought.

Not as an independent?

No, no.

No discussion about it.

No. Look, I already think that independent candidates are likely to elect Donald Trump. And I think him being elected again would be devastating for our country and its character.

Who do you like in the Republican field?

Anybody. I would be happy to support virtually any one of the Republicans. Maybe not Vivek, but the others that are running would be acceptable to me and I’d be happy to vote for them. I’d be happy to vote for a number of the Democrats too. I mean, it would be an upgrade, in my opinion, from Donald Trump and perhaps also from Joe Biden. Look, I like President Biden. I find him a very charming, engaging person. There’s some places I agree with him, but most places I disagree with him. I think he’s made all sorts of terrible mistakes, but I would like to see someone else run.

You’ve been chatting on the phone with President Biden recently.

He’s kind enough to give me a call from time to time, because we get along and I offer my advice. He is the President of the United States, and I want him to be effective as long as he’s there.

Are many in the Republican Party that not only say that he’s too old to be President, but that he lacks the mental capability. Have you found that to be true in your conversations with him?

I’ve interacted with two old men who want to be President, or have or are President. Both Donald Trump and Joe Biden. I’ve interacted with both of them, and they’re both of mental capacity. They would pass the mental acuity test that I’ve passed and others do. Look, and I’ve negotiated with President Biden on the infrastructure bill. We met in his office and talked at length on a whole series of issues. He’s mentally capable, but he’s older. And we’ve had older Presidents before, from Dwight Eisenhower to FDR. I’m not afraid of people who are older being in positions of leadership. Heck, the president of my church is 99 years old and does a fine job leading our church. So I’m okay with that. But the challenge I have with President Biden is not so much his age as his policies.

What’s your biggest regret from the 2012 campaign?

Losing. I would’ve loved to win.

In 2012 you wrote in your journal that, “Barack Obama is gracious without genuine grace. His arrogance is breathtaking.”

There’s no question that Barack Obama has a high opinion of himself. And he may feel that’s deserved. Look, I found him to be a delightful character to be with, but I don’t think he had a great deal of attention to my opinion. Maybe he was wise not to have. I remember Bob Gates who served under two presidents as secretaries in their administrations. He was asked, “What is the most important quality of a President of the United States?” And he said, “The most important quality is to recognize that you’re not always the smartest person in the room.” I have made my career by hiring people smarter than me, more capable than me, and learning how to listen to them, listen to people of different points of view, analyze it, synthesize it, and then choosing what I believe is the right course. I don’t think Barack Obama was inclined to listen to other people. He listened to himself.

I want to talk about January 6th, and I did bring along just a little audio-visual aid here, but you remember this moment in the hallway where you’re walking away and there’s Officer Goodman that tells you to run the other way.

Yeah. Yeah.

What was that day like?

That was an awful day. It’s not so much because I was fearful for my life. That was not what made it such a terrible and horrific day in my life. But instead, this was an invasion of, if you will, the temple of democracy. The symbol of the capitalists, known around the world. Democratic nations around the world look up to us. We’re the leader of the free world, and to have it abused as it was, was just disorienting and disgusting.

And I know members of your family didn’t want you to come to Washington. They were worried about you.

Yeah. Ann was concerned and felt that I should not go back, because Donald Trump was saying, “Hey, come to Washington. This is going to be a momentous occasion.” And doing so on the day when peaceful transfer of power was to occur, suggested there could be violence. And I do get death threats. And her feeling was I would not be safe and I shouldn’t go. And I said, “Well, this is a constitutional moment. This is a time when I have to be there.” And one of the reasons I ran, by the way, it’s like, “Why would a guy who’d run for President and lost go back and run for Senate?” And one of the major reasons was I believe there was some risk that we would face a constitutional crisis, or that there would be a great need for people of stability and sobriety in the Senate. And we needed more like that, not fewer. I categorized myself in that group and thought I might be needed, and that was one of the reasons I ran for Senate. So of course I was going to be there at a time when such a circumstance might require a person of character.

Did you have any idea it’d be tested the way it was?

I had no idea that it would be tested in the way it was. It was unimaginable to me that we would not have had sufficient forces to repel a crowd storming the Capitol. And I’m sure there’ll be effort to understand how our failure was so severe.

The subtitle of the book is Reckoning. Is there a reckoning in the Republican Party?

I don’t know where the party stands, or the future of the Republican Party. I mean, it depends on whether Donald Trump gets elected President again. If Donald Trump gets elected President, and I give that at this stage like, 50/50 odds. I think he’s the prohibitive favorite to win the nomination. If he gets elected President, I mean, the party is Donald Trump. It’s in every respect a reflection of his character. And I don’t know how long it would take for us to shake that image. If he loses, well, of course he’ll say it was stolen regardless of the circumstances. But if he loses, I think our party moves on. I don’t know the direction it’ll take, but I think it moves on to a different course.

When we come back, we talk to Mitt Romney about his life in the Senate and the influence of his father.

(11:51)
When you were elected to the Senate, you wrote a list of things you wanted to accomplish. How many of those have you gotten done?

Quite a few, but I’ve added a lot of things to the list. And actually, the last couple of years, up until this year, the two years prior to this year, I was able to be part of a negotiating group that was able to put together legislation which not only passed the Senate, but also the House, and got signed by the President. So it became law. So the infrastructure bill became law, the Electoral Count Act Reform became law, marriage and religious liberty protections became law. A gun safety bill became law. The CHIPS Act, which I supported, wasn’t a negotiator there, that became law. We got a lot done.

So why are you not running for reelection?

I’m of the view that I happened to be in Washington at a key time when a number of individuals, four Democrats and four Republicans came together, negotiated, and drove through major pieces of legislation. We got a lot done. But I think those days are not there, at least given my current vision of where we are, in part because some of those individuals have left, in part because the House is far less organized today than it was even under Nancy Pelosi, and I didn’t want to spend a lot of time, six years, getting nothing done. And also, I really do believe it’s time for the next generation to step up. Look, we’re crushing millennials and young people. Older people have voted for folks that’ll give us more and more benefits and lower our taxes, and put on debt to the next generation. And the next generations don’t recognize what’s being put on their shoulders. We will never pay off the debt. Baby boomers, the numbers were racking up, the trillions were racking up, we’re going to be gone. So I think it’s time for them to step into Washington to see what’s happening and to start screaming about the future of America and their lives.

Let’s turn to your family. Their influence has always been a central part of your life. What did you learn from your dad?

My dad is my life hero. As a Republican governor, he refused to endorse the nominee of his party, Barry Goldwater, for President because he thought he was weak on civil rights and extremism. So that’s the person who I try and model myself after. And I’m not quite there.

You went to the 1964 convention with your dad?

Yeah, yeah. I was up in the balcony watching my dad and seeing how he was treated. People treated him with respect, but he was not in the Goldwater bandwagon.

And when Goldwater said, “Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice,” and the crowd cheered, what did your father do?

It’s hard for me to remember exactly what went on in 1964, but he rejected Goldwater’s embracive extremism. And the John Birch Society felt that was wrong for the Republican Party. And an interesting lesson, I think people looked at the party then and said, “Oh my goodness, the Republican Party has changed. It’s extreme. It’s anti-civil rights.” When Goldwater lost, the party was able to re-find its footing. And I hope if and when Donald Trump loses that, we’re able to re-find our footing again.

Do you think that’s true?

I hope it’s true.

Do you think your father would be proud of how you’ve stood up for your values as you’ve run for office, and how you’re speaking out now?

I hope my dad would be proud of what I’ve done, and hopefully lived up to his legacy. I’m sure he’d point out some things I did wrong. Some of the tactics and moves that I’ve made, I actually made with his advice. He used to wake up at, I don’t know, 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning and write these long pages of notes. “Mitt, you need to do this, you need to do that.” That’s when I was running for Senate in 1994. And so I sought his advice and knew where he stood. But my dad just didn’t waver. He would point out if he was wrong and changed course, but he stood for what he believed.

When we come back, Ann Romney joins our conversation on what’s next for the Romneys in politics.

(16:18)
So how long have you two been together?

Well, I was 15, turning 16, on our first date.

58 years. Our first date was 58 years ago.

So yeah, we’ve known each other and we know each other’s families, obviously. And it’s so interesting, I feel like when I’m with Mitt, I’m home. There’s nowhere else I need to go. There’s this peaceful feeling that is just like, “Ah.” We can relax. The worries just dissipate, just because we’re together. We sleep better when we’re together. It’s just comforting.

But you’ve described your life here in Washington as pretty lonely.

Well, Ann has horses and she likes to ride. As you know, she has MS, and she has found that the exercise of riding and training these horses keeps her well and healthy. So she’s not here in DC with me. I go wherever she is on the weekend, like a little puppy dog looking for its master. I run to where Ann is riding her horses.

But we’re together four nights. So he’s alone for three nights in DC. Yes. I mean, that is the fact.

And he’s eating pieces of salmon on pieces of bread?

Apparently. I did not know that. I read it, too. Salmon with ketchup. But he goes like, “Hamburger with ketchup, salmon with ketchup.” It’s like, “Okay.”

So what’s next for Mitt and Ann Romney? Any more politics?

I got elected first, by the way, before him. So in Boston, even in Belmont, and I was a town meeting member. So that was my first election. So what do you think? Am I done with my career now, honey?

I think her political career is over. I presume mine is as well. I will still be involved and active. I don’t know precisely how.

We’ve known this, but also reading again in the book, I mean, Ann, you’ve counseled Mitt on everything that he’s done. Are you his closest advisor?

Absolutely. And he mine, yeah. Except I don’t listen to him as much as he listens to me.

No, I mean, Ann and I basically grew up together. And she’s smart and has judgment of people better than mine. So she gives me advice on people, but she also gives me good political advice. Look, my life revolves around Ann and our family together. That’s what defines me in my life, my faith also, and a sense of service to our country. But yeah, we’re always partners.

Right now, we are on the next round of grandchildren, which is great-grandchildren. And it’s been kind of shocking to me how much I have loved… It’s almost like starting all over again with a first grandchild. It is that thrilling and exciting. We really, truly, it’s like, “No, we really want to go and spend more time with family.” It’s really true for us. We really, really love being with them. It’s almost everything for us right now is being with our grandkids.

It’s not that you’re fed up with Republican politics?

Well, that too. I feel like there’s no home for us right now, but my democratic friends, I feel like they’re saying the same thing, is that we are a people without a party right now. A lot of Americans are. And the great center, and we are a center right nation, is just gone. And I think it will come back, that we’ll find our bearings again, but right now, I’m a person without a party.

You got a call from Oprah. What did she say?

Well, she was trying to figure out how Mitt could do an independent run. I remember trying to explain to her that that doesn’t work politically. And I think I was the one that suggested, “Well, Oprah, why don’t you run with him and see how that works?” I don’t think it was really her thought at all, because I don’t think she really wants to be involved in any kind of politics in an active way.

And what if Oprah called you this time?

I’m not running. And I’m convinced by the way that, look, I would love a center, let’s call it a no-labels candidate, to become President. The challenge is most likely they would not be able to get the 270 electoral count number that you need to become President. So it would get kicked to the House and the members of the House are going to vote for their party. They’re not going to vote for some independent or some no-labels person. So I just don’t see a viable pathway, barring some very unusual circumstance that I don’t see at this stage.

So some of your sons are considering a run for political office?

Well, we have one son in Utah, Josh, that is obviously a perfect candidate for something like this, and he’s always had that interest. There’s a few of our sons that would never want to do anything with politics. They hate it. But no, Josh would. And I’ve son Tagg would of course, too, but he lives in Massachusetts and he knows the reality of running as a Republican in Massachusetts. So yeah, I would actually discourage my children if they were even interested right now, because it’s an ugly time. We are in an ugly phase. And we need to have some kind of reckoning to bring us back to our sensibilities.

How do you want your children to remember you?

Well, they probably already have an image of who I am. But my descendants, I hope, will walk away saying, “Okay, Granddad or Great-Granddad had beliefs, which were either right or wrong, but he stood by them.” And that’s, I think, the ultimate thing I’d like them to know. I’d like them to also know that my life is not defined by winning and losing elections. My life is defined by my relationship with my family and my faith. That’s what I live for. Those other things are part of the life experience, but that’s the defining measure of my life.

Well said.