Judge Christopher Berhalter (00:00):
Please be seated.
(00:01)
You ready, Kristy?
Kristy (00:11):
Yes.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (00:12):
We are back on the record in State of Ohio versus Andrew Griffin. Mr. Griffin is present in the courtroom with his counsel. The state of Ohio is present. We are outside the presence of the jury. Mr. Vavra, are there any issues the state needs to address?
Joseph Vavra (00:27):
No, Judge.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (00:29):
All right.
(00:29)
Mr. Shamansky?
Samuel Shamansky (00:30):
We're good, Your Honor. Thank you, sir.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (00:31):
All right. Thank you.
(00:33)
Mr. Gorns, if you'll bring in the jury.
(00:35)
Everyone, please be seated. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I hope you had a good weekend and got to enjoy that weather that we've had the last couple days. I'm going to ask you to raise your hand if any of you had any issues or problems following the orders from this court? No one has raised their hand. Thank you.
(00:59)
Mr. Vavra, we're still with the State's case-in-chief. You may proceed.
Joseph Vavra (01:04):
State calls Sean O'Leary.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Sean O'Leary. Stand on that step, please. Can you raise your right hand, please? Do you swear the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Sean O'Leary (01:18):
Yes, I do.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Have a seat.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (01:22):
Good morning, sir.
Sean O'Leary (01:22):
Morning, Your Honor.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (01:22):
Do you object to being filmed?
Sean O'Leary (01:24):
I do not.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (01:25):
Okay.
(01:25)
And the state may proceed when ready.
Mr. Kinsler (01:34):
Thank you, Your Honor.
(01:36)
Good morning.
Sean O'Leary (01:37):
Good morning, Counselor.
Mr. Kinsler (01:39):
Please state your name for the record.
Sean O'Leary (01:40):
Sean Patrick O'Leary.
Mr. Kinsler (01:43):
What do you do, sir?
Sean O'Leary (01:44):
I am a trial analyst, self-employed trial analyst for AT&T Global Telecommunications.
Mr. Kinsler (01:50):
What does that mean?
Sean O'Leary (01:52):
I appear in court proceedings such as this on behalf of the telephone company to verify and authenticate telephone records.
Mr. Kinsler (02:01):
How long have you been doing that?
Sean O'Leary (02:03):
Since April of 2025.
Mr. Kinsler (02:08):
How many times have you testified?
Sean O'Leary (02:12):
Somewhere in the neighborhood of about 50 times.
Mr. Kinsler (02:17):
Okay. And were you asked to review some records for this case, State of Ohio versus Andrew Griffin?
Sean O'Leary (02:21):
Yes, I was.
Mr. Kinsler (02:25):
Okay.
(02:25)
Your Honor, I'm going to show the witness State's Exhibit 165.
Samuel Shamansky (02:28):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (02:28):
All right. You may proceed.
(02:28)
Sir, in that screen.
Sean O'Leary (02:30):
Oh, thank you.
Mr. Kinsler (02:39):
When your office provides records, how do they do so?
Sean O'Leary (02:43):
Electronically.
Mr. Kinsler (02:44):
Okay. And do you guys have a serial number or code you associated with it?
Sean O'Leary (02:48):
We do, yes.
Mr. Kinsler (02:49):
Okay. Is that unique to every response?
Sean O'Leary (02:51):
It is, yes.
Mr. Kinsler (02:52):
Okay. Do you happen to recognize the code displayed on those files?
Sean O'Leary (02:57):
I do, yes. The five digit numbers to the left are generally the file number that's assigned to it by AT&T.
Mr. Kinsler (03:07):
Okay. Could you recite out loud the file number associated with this response?
Sean O'Leary (03:13):
3938933.
Mr. Kinsler (03:13):
Okay. Have you reviewed these records previously?
Sean O'Leary (03:21):
I have, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:22):
And these records are kept in the ordinary course of business of AT&T?
Sean O'Leary (03:24):
Yes, sir. They are.
Mr. Kinsler (03:24):
Okay. And these are true and accurate copies of what the digital files that AT&T would have in its possession?
Sean O'Leary (03:32):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:36):
Okay. I've opened the file, State's Exhibit 165, and we've opened this folder that you referred to. What is the AT&T records key?
Sean O'Leary (03:46):
That's basically just a key for all of the unique acronyms that are germane to phone records, gives you an idea of what they mean.
Mr. Kinsler (03:57):
Okay. So I've opened the file marked AT&T_recordskey_key. This is a PDF, correct?
Sean O'Leary (04:16):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (04:18):
And what does this key tell us?
Sean O'Leary (04:22):
Inside the call detail records, there's numbers of things that are unique to the phone company and to AT&T's records, and this basically just gives an explanation of many of those things.
Mr. Kinsler (04:47):
In particular, in the columns listed in the key, what is an item?
Sean O'Leary (04:55):
This the row number. This is basically, if you go through the call detail records, they are numbered within AT&T for whatever the period of time that you request the records, and they number them from one to infinity, so it's just a little bit easier to follow.
Mr. Kinsler (05:13):
Okay. And are these records kept in any particular time zone?
Sean O'Leary (05:15):
They are.
Mr. Kinsler (05:16):
And what is that?
Sean O'Leary (05:18):
UTC, Universal Time Coordinated.
Mr. Kinsler (05:21):
And there's reference on this key to connection date and time. What does that mean?
Sean O'Leary (05:28):
That is the date and the time that the transaction was made.
Mr. Kinsler (05:32):
Okay. And what is the seizure time?
Sean O'Leary (05:35):
Seizure time is the time that it takes, for instance, in a mobile telephone call, what you may hear as ringing on one end of the phone is actually the seizure time. That's the time that it takes to filter through the entire telecommunication system and find its ultimate call destination.
Mr. Kinsler (05:58):
Okay.
Sean O'Leary (05:58):
So that's the time that the two calls were attempting to be connected.
Mr. Kinsler (06:02):
And what is ET?
Sean O'Leary (06:04):
The elapsed time. That's the actual time that the two phones were connected, say, you would be having a conversation.
Mr. Kinsler (06:10):
On page two of this document, what's originating number?
Sean O'Leary (06:22):
That is the mobile telephone number that originated the transaction, either a phone call or a text message or a data session, for instance.
Mr. Kinsler (06:33):
Okay. And what is a terminating number?
Sean O'Leary (06:36):
That is the number that was called.
Mr. Kinsler (06:49):
And then what is the CT?
Sean O'Leary (06:51):
That is the call type, either originating or terminating.
Mr. Kinsler (06:58):
And the feature?
Sean O'Leary (07:00):
Features are any features that may have been utilized in that call. If you block the caller ID, for instance, or the call was forwarded to a voicemail box or anything like that, many of those features would be remarked in a column on the call detail records.
Mr. Kinsler (07:24):
And then what is a cell location?
Sean O'Leary (07:26):
That is the location of the cellular tower that serviced that particular transaction.
Mr. Kinsler (07:34):
This key is about 17 pages long or this document is 17 pages long. The other end, basically anything that's identified in phone records, is it fair to say this is the glossary of that, what that information means?
Sean O'Leary (07:48):
That is exactly what it is, yes.
Mr. Kinsler (07:50):
So I've opened a PDF marked report AU_3938933.pdf within State's Exhibit 165. Do you recognize what I'm looking at here?
Sean O'Leary (08:05):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (08:05):
And what is that?
Sean O'Leary (08:07):
These are the call detail records provided by AT&T for the phone number 214-762-1057 from the time period of March the 1st, 2021 to November the 1st, 2021.
Mr. Kinsler (08:23):
Okay. And this PDF is what, 17,422 pages, is that correct?
Sean O'Leary (08:31):
That is correct, yes.
Mr. Kinsler (08:33):
All right. And you talked earlier about the key. Is some of the information you discussed in the key, is that shown across the top of this?
Sean O'Leary (08:43):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (09:00):
If you would just ... Is there a laser pointer up there by you?
Sean O'Leary (09:07):
I don't see one.
Mr. Kinsler (09:08):
Okay. The leftmost column, what is that?
Sean O'Leary (09:15):
The leftmost column is the item number, again, assigned by AT&T to these call detail records, just for easy reference.
Mr. Kinsler (09:23):
And then the next column to the right, what is that?
Sean O'Leary (09:25):
That is the connection date of the transaction.
Mr. Kinsler (09:28):
Okay. And you mentioned that's when ... What is the connection date?
Sean O'Leary (09:35):
These records contain all the usage of the cell phone number ending in 1057. There's mobile calls, mobile to mobile calls, mobile to landline calls. There's text messages, and there's also data usage. So whatever the connection date of that transaction is in UTC, that's what it is.
Mr. Kinsler (09:58):
Okay. And then you mentioned the connection date and connection time, and you spoke about seizure time, correct?
Sean O'Leary (10:04):
That's correct.
Mr. Kinsler (10:05):
And that's that, I guess, fourth column?
Sean O'Leary (10:07):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (10:08):
And then what was the ET again?
Sean O'Leary (10:10):
Elapsed time. That's the amount of time that the two devices in a mobile phone call are connected.
Mr. Kinsler (10:17):
So if someone's calling from one number to the other, they actually connect, they actually have a conversation, the duration of that connection will be reflected in the ET column?
Sean O'Leary (10:24):
That is correct.
Mr. Kinsler (10:25):
Okay. And the originating number?
Sean O'Leary (10:28):
That is the phone number that originated the transaction that made the call in this instance for a phone call.
Mr. Kinsler (10:37):
And then the terminating number?
Sean O'Leary (10:39):
That is the number that was called for a mobile phone call.
Mr. Kinsler (10:44):
And then what is IMEI and IMSI?
Sean O'Leary (10:48):
The IMEI is the equipment number, equipment identification number. So the identification number of your cell phone, that is one part of the identifying numbers.
Mr. Kinsler (11:02):
And then, I'm sorry, the IMSI, did you also state that?
Sean O'Leary (11:06):
The IMSI is the SIM card identification number. The small card that contains your information inside of each mobile device has a serial number, and that's represented here.
Mr. Kinsler (11:21):
And what is the CT?
Sean O'Leary (11:21):
That is the connection type, either mobile originating or mobile terminating.
Mr. Kinsler (11:27):
And the feature?
Sean O'Leary (11:28):
Features are any features that may have been utilized in this call or in this transaction. For instance, VCOR, that tells you that it was a 4G cell site that was utilized. If you go down a little to the next line, NOIP, means the caller ID was presented in that particular call. If you go further down to the third line, caller ID was presented, call forwarding to a voicemail number, just any features that may have been utilized.
Mr. Kinsler (12:07):
And then the cell location, what is that?
Sean O'Leary (12:09):
The cell location, the first set of numbers is the cell tower ID numbers. The second set of numbers after the colon is the latitude and longitude of the cell site that serviced that particular transaction. And the third set of numbers after that is tower information sector and beamwidth, et cetera.
Mr. Kinsler (12:32):
I'm going to show you what's been marked as State's Exhibit 18A. Is that right?
Judge Christopher Berhalter (12:44):
Is 18A a part of 165?
Mr. Kinsler (12:45):
18A is also an AT&T record for a different ... Let me ask the witness that.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (12:52):
Okay.
Mr. Kinsler (12:53):
Am I correct that in the files you were asked to review, there's one ... the file we just looked at, 3938933, that was a 17,000-page response, correct?
Sean O'Leary (13:05):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (13:06):
Is it also true that AT&T gave some additional responses to that?
Sean O'Leary (13:10):
They did, yes.
Mr. Kinsler (13:15):
Okay. And that 3938933, that was kind of the omnibus response for a number of phone numbers?
Sean O'Leary (13:20):
It was, yes.
Mr. Kinsler (13:21):
And separate and apart from that, AT&T had made some individual responses for the individual numbers in that large response, is that correct?
Sean O'Leary (13:28):
They did, yes.
Mr. Kinsler (13:34):
Okay. Are you familiar with the numbers of those responses as well?
Sean O'Leary (13:38):
Unfortunately, I can't recall the actual numbers, but my recollection is nearby.
Mr. Kinsler (13:50):
May I show State's Exhibit 18A?
Samuel Shamansky (13:53):
Objection, Your Honor.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (13:54):
You may proceed.
Mr. Kinsler (14:09):
Do you recognize State's Exhibit 18A?
Sean O'Leary (14:12):
I do, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (14:13):
And is there a response number or a AT&T identifier for this record?
Sean O'Leary (14:18):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (14:19):
And what is that?
Sean O'Leary (14:20):
It is 4462179.
Mr. Kinsler (14:24):
And that appears in the topmost left corner?
Sean O'Leary (14:26):
That is correct, yes.
Mr. Kinsler (14:29):
Okay. What phone number are these records associated with?
Sean O'Leary (14:33):
Phone number 918-421-0503.
Mr. Kinsler (14:46):
Is there a subscriber name associated on this file?
Sean O'Leary (14:49):
It wouldn't be in this file. This is the all usage report. This is the call detail records. There is another page that was, I believe, provided. Go back to the individual files.
Mr. Kinsler (15:06):
Let me ask you about records on page 93 of this doc. I'm sorry, this PDF is eight pages long. It begins on page ... When you provide a response or when AT&T provides a response, do they put these page numbers on the bottom right?
Sean O'Leary (15:32):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (15:42):
Okay. I want to ask you about page 83, particularly line item 1713 and 1714. Can you tell us anything about those calls?
Sean O'Leary (15:57):
Yes. They're actually the part of the same transaction, if you will, on 9/11/2021 at ... I'm going to the bottom from left to right. At 13:42 and 45 seconds, you could see that there was a transaction just a little bit. There you go. At that time, there was a transaction that was enacted by 918-421- 0503. It was, I believe, an outgoing call. Nope, I'm sorry. It was an incoming call from 918-318-0229. The line 1713 and line 1714 are considered the same phone call. They are two legs of the call as the terminology from the phone company. So the initial one is the call was initiated. The second one, if you see 1714, it's literally one second later, and it looks like the call was forwarded to a number 918-807-9910, was forwarded to that number.
(17:16)
And if you go to the next page, 1715, likely, again, they have the same time again. You could see that that number was forwarded to that and the call was completed. See on the feature over there? It was a 4G cell site that did it and the call was completed. It was 20 seconds elapsed in total.
Mr. Kinsler (17:53):
Okay. Did that call get answered?
Sean O'Leary (17:56):
It was forwarded to another number and 20 seconds of usage was made. So possibly a voicemail. Yeah, it says actually all the way to the right-hand side for 1714, call detail, the caller ID was presented. It was call forward, no answer. It was forwarded to a voicemail number.
Mr. Kinsler (18:26):
Okay.
Sean O'Leary (18:28):
The voice number is 918-807-9910.
Mr. Kinsler (18:30):
So I'm illuminating on the screen here. This is the number you're talking about it being forwarded to, correct?
Sean O'Leary (18:35):
That is correct, yes.
Mr. Kinsler (18:36):
It ends in 9910?
Sean O'Leary (18:38):
That's correct.
Mr. Kinsler (18:40):
And then on the right side of the feature, you referenced voicemail. Is that the VM?
Sean O'Leary (18:44):
That's correct.
Mr. Kinsler (18:45):
Meaning this call wasn't received by this number, it went to voicemail?
Sean O'Leary (18:48):
It was not. It was not answered.
Mr. Kinsler (18:50):
Okay.
Sean O'Leary (18:50):
And then if you go to the next line, 1715, you could see that there was a 20-second presumably connection with the voicemail number.
Mr. Kinsler (19:01):
Okay. So there's the line 1713, 1714, 1715. Is that all one call?
Sean O'Leary (19:09):
That is one call, yes.
Mr. Kinsler (19:11):
And what are those? Are there legs of that call?
Sean O'Leary (19:13):
Those are legs of those calls. The phone is looking for the number that it's called. If nobody answers it, it initiates a second leg. And then if it goes to a voicemail, it initiates a third leg.
Mr. Kinsler (19:26):
And on these calls, the originating number is listed as 1- 918-421-0503. What does it mean to be the originating number?
Sean O'Leary (19:37):
That is the number that initiated the transaction, made the call.
Mr. Kinsler (19:41):
Okay. And then the terminating number is listed as 1-918-318-0229. What does it mean to be the terminating number?
Sean O'Leary (19:51):
That is the number that was called.
Mr. Kinsler (19:54):
Receiving the call?
Sean O'Leary (20:14):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (20:14):
As part of this omnibus response, or in addition to the omnibus response we talked about, did AT&T also provide a tower dump in this case?
Sean O'Leary (20:21):
They did, yes.
Mr. Kinsler (20:22):
Okay. And would that be response 3298920?
Sean O'Leary (20:30):
I believe so, yes.
Mr. Kinsler (20:31):
Okay. Your Honor, I'd like to show him State's Exhibit 19B.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (20:37):
Mr. Shamansky?
Samuel Shamansky (20:38):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (20:40):
You may proceed.
Mr. Kinsler (20:41):
Your Honor, I'm going to actually show him another exhibit, State's Exhibit 24.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (20:51):
Mr. Shamansky?
Samuel Shamansky (20:59):
Your Honor, no objection to ...
(21:00)
24, right?
Mr. Kinsler (21:00):
24.
Samuel Shamansky (21:00):
24.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (21:03):
You may proceed.
Mr. Kinsler (21:04):
Thank you, Your Honor.
(21:14)
State's Exhibit 24 is a PDF and it's 4,321 pages long. Do you recognize this item? Sorry. Do you recognize State's Exhibit 24?
Sean O'Leary (21:30):
Yes, I do.
Mr. Kinsler (21:31):
And does it also have a AT&T document or record number?
Sean O'Leary (21:38):
It does.
Mr. Kinsler (21:38):
Would you state that one for me?
Sean O'Leary (21:41):
3938933.
Mr. Kinsler (21:42):
Okay. And what phone are these records for?
Sean O'Leary (21:48):
This is for 918-318-0229 for the time period of 3/1/2021 to 11/1/2021.
Mr. Kinsler (22:15):
That takes you to page 696 in State's Exhibit 24, and I want to direct your attention to, I think, line 1196, and I'll zoom in for you. Your Honor, may I approach?
Judge Christopher Berhalter (22:44):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (22:49):
And I think specifically, I want you to look at 1196. I guess it's ... Is it 11,965?
Sean O'Leary (23:12):
Yeah, I think it's 11 ... Yeah, 11.
Mr. Kinsler (23:16):
And what I'm specifying here is on the left-hand column, which I think you previously described as the item number, it looks like four digits, but there's a little hanging digit down below it.
Sean O'Leary (23:24):
Yeah, I think it's actually five digits. Yeah.
Mr. Kinsler (23:27):
Okay. So beginning with that item 11965, what can you tell me about that call?
Sean O'Leary (23:38):
It looks like it's two legs, at least two legs of the call, not three legs of that call. So 119965, 11966, and 11967 are all three legs of the same transaction to ...
Mr. Kinsler (24:04):
And what does the first leg tell you about that call?
Sean O'Leary (24:08):
It shows me that the phone number 918-421-0503 received a call from 918-318-0229, I guess the number that we have the records for here, at 13:42 and 45 seconds.
Mr. Kinsler (24:38):
And what does the next leg tell you about that call?
Sean O'Leary (24:41):
The next leg tells me that 11,966 item number shows that the caller ID was presented, call forward, no answer, and it was forwarded to a voicemail number. And that's the second line on 11966, that item, that line number. And you see the number that it's forwarded to, 918-807-9910. It was forwarded to that. And then third leg of that call is showing that the connection was made, but there was no actual elapsed ... There was. There was 20 seconds of elapsed time that the connection was, and it doesn't show any equipment or SIM card number, and it was serviced by a 4G tower.
Mr. Kinsler (25:45):
Does the absence of the SIM card number mean anything to you?
Sean O'Leary (25:49):
No, it's just ... It could have been calling either a landline or someone in their office or whatever the case may be, a home number. That just shows that the connection was not made to a mobile device that we can identify.
Mr. Kinsler (26:10):
So this series here, 11965, 11966, 11967, these calls all took place on September 21st, 2021, or the three legs of this call took place on September 21st, 2021?
Sean O'Leary (26:28):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (26:29):
And it was at about 13:42 UTC time?
Sean O'Leary (26:33):
That is correct.
Mr. Kinsler (26:34):
And that call originated with which of these two numbers?
Sean O'Leary (26:38):
It originated with the 0503 number.
Mr. Kinsler (26:43):
And it terminated with which number?
Sean O'Leary (26:45):
0229.
Mr. Kinsler (26:48):
And that call went to voicemail, is that correct?
Sean O'Leary (26:50):
That is correct, yes.
Mr. Kinsler (26:58):
Your Honor, I'd like to show him what's been marked as State's Exhibit 24A.
Samuel Shamansky (27:01):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (27:02):
You may proceed.
Mr. Kinsler (27:05):
Do you recognize State's Exhibit 24A?
Sean O'Leary (27:08):
Yes, I do.
Mr. Kinsler (27:11):
And what are we looking at here?
Sean O'Leary (27:13):
These are the phone records for cell phone number 918-318-0229 provided by AT&T for the time period of August 23rd, '21 to September 23rd, 2021.
Mr. Kinsler (27:35):
And does that contain an identifier from AT&T as to what record request this was?
Sean O'Leary (27:40):
Yes, it does.
Mr. Kinsler (27:40):
And what is that number?
Sean O'Leary (27:42):
3303081. That's the AT&T file number.
Mr. Kinsler (27:46):
Okay. Just below it, would that date, October 9th, 2021, what would that be?
Sean O'Leary (27:54):
I'm sorry? Oh, that is the date that the records were produced by AT&T.
Mr. Kinsler (28:01):
Okay. I want to take you to ... This is a 73-page PDF. I would like you to take you to page 50. And I want to direct your attention to items 857 through 860. I'll zoom in for you. So beginning here, 857, well, what can you tell me about that line item of that call?
Sean O'Leary (28:56):
Yes, it was a incoming phone call to the number, the 0229 number from 580-372-3870. So there was a call made from that number. Again, the caller ID was presented. It was a 4G cell site, and that's it. The connection time was 59 seconds, just under one minute.
Mr. Kinsler (29:29):
Okay. So you can say that that call connected, it didn't go to voicemail?
Sean O'Leary (29:33):
It was, yes.
Mr. Kinsler (29:35):
Okay. Same question for line 858. What can you tell me about that call?
Sean O'Leary (29:42):
Again, that was a phone call that was made, again, from the same number to the number requested, the 0229 number. It was connected, the caller ID was presented, and it was a 50 second elapsed time connection.
Mr. Kinsler (30:05):
And same question for line item 858. Or I'm sorry, we just did 858.
Sean O'Leary (30:11):
Yeah. 859?
Mr. Kinsler (30:12):
Is that correct? 859.
Sean O'Leary (30:14):
Yeah, it was the same calling number again, 580-372-3870 to the 0229 number. Again, caller ID presented 4G cell site serviced. It was a one minute and 26 second connected transaction.
Mr. Kinsler (30:37):
And then same question for line 860.
Sean O'Leary (30:42):
Yep. Again, the same number, 580-372-3870, calling our 0229 number. Caller ID presented, 4G cell site. And it was connected for one minute and 32 seconds.
Mr. Kinsler (31:12):
Your Honor, I'd like to show him State's Exhibit 24B, which is also phone records for the same number.
Samuel Shamansky (31:16):
No objection, sir.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (31:18):
You may proceed.
Mr. Kinsler (31:19):
I'm going to show you what's been marked as State's Exhibit 24B. Do you recognize that?
Sean O'Leary (31:29):
I do.
Mr. Kinsler (31:30):
And what are we looking at here?
Sean O'Leary (31:32):
These are historical precision location information records provided by AT&T for the number 918-318-0229 for the time period of 9/24. I don't know what the terminating date is. It's not remarked up there.
Mr. Kinsler (31:57):
Okay. Does this contain one of those records identifiers that AT&T provides?
Sean O'Leary (32:03):
Yes. The file number on the upper left-hand corner.
Mr. Kinsler (32:06):
And what is that?
Sean O'Leary (32:07):
3303081.
Mr. Kinsler (32:13):
And you described this as, what, historical precision location. Will you explain that for me?
Sean O'Leary (32:18):
Yes. AT&T keeps track of the phone's location using the device information. So for instance, if you have a cell phone, a Apple iPhone, if you query the internet for the weather in your location, the phone itself has GPS location capabilities. That in conjunction with the cell tower information that AT&T provides to complete the calls, they give a generalized location information and it's provided here in this report. And you can see on the right-hand side, it gives you an accuracy estimate of approximately how far it is from that actual latitude and longitude coordinate.
Mr. Kinsler (33:23):
So I've zoomed in on this item a little tighter. I think you indicated the item ... Is every item like a transaction or an event?
Sean O'Leary (33:34):
Yeah, they are transactions and they're not necessarily based on calls. This is oftentimes happening while the phone is just sitting on your desk or sitting in your pocket. It is in constant communication with the telephone network, basically updating its location. So if you do receive a phone call, it knows where to find you. So the phone is in constant communication with the network and also providing GPS type location abilities so that it can give you specific if you're looking for driving directions or the specific weather in Saint Clairsville here as opposed to in Pittsburgh, it knows that you're here as opposed to anywhere else.
Mr. Kinsler (34:22):
And that location information, is that provided in longitude and latitude in those columns, I guess?
Sean O'Leary (34:30):
Yes, it is.
Mr. Kinsler (34:32):
What is that, the fifth and sixth column going from the left?
Sean O'Leary (34:35):
Two, three, four. Yep. Five and six, correct.
Mr. Kinsler (34:38):
You addressed this, but what is the location accuracy, the right column?
Sean O'Leary (34:43):
It's just an attempt through AT&T to give you location information, and that gives you the confidence in the exact location. It's within likely better than 1,000 meters. You can see there's different numbers over there. It's just the confidence.
Sean O'Leary (35:00):
... there. It's just the confidence to how close it is to that particular latitude and longitude coordinate.
Mr. Kinsler (35:10):
And the dates here are September 24th, 2021. Is that correct?
Sean O'Leary (35:17):
That is correct.
Mr. Kinsler (35:18):
And this is a 139-page document. If I scroll to the bottom, what is the earliest date of a record that was provided here?
Sean O'Leary (35:41):
It looks like August 23rd of 2021.
Mr. Kinsler (36:03):
Your Honor, I'd like to show the witness State's Exhibit 17.
Mr. Shimansky (36:30):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge (36:31):
You may proceed.
Mr. Kinsler (36:33):
So this is marked as State's Exhibit 17. This is a 310-page PDF. Do you recognize this item?
Sean O'Leary (36:41):
I do, yes.
Mr. Kinsler (36:43):
And does this one have a AT&T document record number?
Sean O'Leary (36:48):
It does.
Mr. Kinsler (36:49):
And what is that?
Sean O'Leary (36:50):
4154168.
Mr. Kinsler (36:56):
And what is this record for or what number is associated with this record?
Sean O'Leary (37:00):
These are call detail records for the phone number 580-372-4885 from the time period of 9/12/2021 to 9/23/2021.
Mr. Kinsler (37:25):
Your Honor, I'd like to show him State's Exhibit 18.
Mr. Shimansky (37:28):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge (37:29):
You may proceed.
Mr. Kinsler (37:31):
State's Exhibit 18, do you recognize this item?
Sean O'Leary (37:35):
I do.
Mr. Kinsler (37:36):
And this is a 272-page PDF.
Sean O'Leary (37:38):
275.
Mr. Kinsler (37:41):
275, excuse me. Do you recognize the AT&T document record number for this item?
Sean O'Leary (37:48):
Yes. It's 4462179.
Mr. Kinsler (37:55):
And what number is this associated with?
Sean O'Leary (37:57):
It is for mobile number 918-421-0503 for the time period of 7/1/2021 to 10/31/2021.
Mr. Kinsler (38:16):
Your Honor, I'd like to show him State's Exhibit 19.
Mr. Shimansky (38:19):
No objection, sir.
Judge (38:21):
You may proceed.
Mr. Kinsler (38:22):
State's Exhibit 19, this is a 177-page PDF. Do you recognize this item?
Sean O'Leary (38:28):
Yes, sir. I do.
Mr. Kinsler (38:29):
And does it contain the AT&T document record number?
Sean O'Leary (38:33):
It does.
Mr. Kinsler (38:34):
And what is it?
Sean O'Leary (38:37):
3924083.
Mr. Kinsler (38:40):
And what records is this associated with?
Sean O'Leary (38:43):
This is call detail records for 865-566-4775, provided from 9/15/2021 to 12/31/2021.
Mr. Kinsler (38:58):
Your Honor, I'd like to show him State's Exhibit 19C.
Mr. Shimansky (39:03):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge (39:04):
You may proceed.
Mr. Kinsler (39:22):
Do you recognize this document?
Sean O'Leary (39:25):
I do.
Mr. Kinsler (39:26):
And does this document have an AT&T document record number?
Sean O'Leary (39:30):
It does.
Mr. Kinsler (39:31):
And what is it?
Sean O'Leary (39:32):
3938933.
Mr. Kinsler (39:36):
And what is this record?
Sean O'Leary (39:40):
This is a subscriber information page that Cricket Wireless keeps for its subscribers.
Mr. Kinsler (39:51):
Who provides the subscriber information?
Sean O'Leary (39:56):
The subscriber, the person purchasing the phone or the phone plan.
Mr. Kinsler (40:04):
And what does this person do? Does this person have to provide ID or documentation?
Mr. Shimansky (40:10):
Object, Your Honor. Unless he has a basis of knowledge with respect to this particular document or transaction.
Judge (40:18):
You need to lay foundation.
Mr. Kinsler (40:19):
Yes, Your Honor. Is this a prepaid subscriber?
Sean O'Leary (40:24):
Yes, it is.
Mr. Kinsler (40:24):
What does prepaid subscriber mean?
Sean O'Leary (40:30):
That's someone who goes in and pays the account upfront and they give them a finite amount of usage on the device and on the network. And when they use up, say, a thousand minutes or whatever the case may be, then the phone doesn't work anymore.
Mr. Kinsler (40:51):
Okay. And does that person have to come into a Cricket store to do that?
Mr. Shimansky (40:56):
Objection, Your Honor. Can we just approach please?
Judge (40:58):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (40:59):
In your work with AT&T, are you familiar with how prepaid phones operate?
Sean O'Leary (41:04):
I am.
Mr. Kinsler (41:05):
And how are you familiar with them?
Sean O'Leary (41:09):
Prior to my employment, I worked for AT&T back in the '90s. I was involved in corporate security asset protection, and I did that for, I believe, three years prior to me being laid off.
Mr. Kinsler (41:31):
In this experience, did it give you a familiarity with how prepaid phones operate?
Sean O'Leary (41:34):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (41:35):
Okay. And when a person purchases a prepaid phone, do they have to pay for minutes as well?
Sean O'Leary (41:48):
They do. They provide payment of sorts, either credit card or cash in some cases. However, they pay upfront and they activate the device and away they go.
Mr. Kinsler (42:03):
Okay. On this particular record we're referring to, it's a one-page PDF and it's State's Exhibit 19C. What is the subscriber's information?
Sean O'Leary (42:14):
It is one James Jobe, J-O-B-E.
Mr. Kinsler (42:19):
And did it provide an address as well?
Sean O'Leary (42:21):
They did.
Mr. Kinsler (42:22):
And what is that address?
Sean O'Leary (42:23):
1622 Washington Avenue in Knoxville, Tennessee.
Mr. Kinsler (42:28):
Okay. And there's a line below that says, "Activation date." What does that mean?
Sean O'Leary (42:32):
That is the date that the account was activated.
Mr. Kinsler (42:38):
And then we see, I guess, contact name as well?
Sean O'Leary (42:41):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (42:44):
And that is also James Jobe?
Sean O'Leary (42:45):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (42:47):
And then below the billing party, there's an account number. Who generates that?
Sean O'Leary (42:53):
That is generated by Cricket Wireless.
Mr. Kinsler (43:00):
Okay. Does each person or each prepaid phone have its own account number?
Sean O'Leary (43:06):
Yes, they do. And they can have multiple numbers under the same account.
Mr. Kinsler (43:12):
And then that billing party is also James Jobe?
Sean O'Leary (43:15):
That is correct.
Mr. Kinsler (43:16):
And the billing address is the same?
Sean O'Leary (43:19):
That is correct.
Mr. Kinsler (43:20):
And the account status is what?
Sean O'Leary (43:25):
Are you... I don't think I could see.
Mr. Kinsler (43:28):
Do you need me-
Sean O'Leary (43:30):
Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. In this particular one, it is canceled.
Mr. Kinsler (43:42):
And then for user information, what is the MSISDN?
Sean O'Leary (43:48):
That is the phone number, the mobile ID number, essentially. It's the mobile phone number that this account is associated with.
Mr. Kinsler (44:00):
And then the IMSI number, what is that?
Sean O'Leary (44:06):
The next line?
Mr. Kinsler (44:07):
Yes, to the right there. I believe that says IMSI, or am I mistaken?
Sean O'Leary (44:12):
Oh, that is the SIM card that is in the device, the SIM card identification number.
Mr. Kinsler (44:18):
And then the next line there says MSISDN active. What does that mean?
Sean O'Leary (44:23):
That is the date that this particular phone number was associated with this account.
Mr. Kinsler (44:29):
Okay. And it's September 19th to December 19th, 2021?
Sean O'Leary (44:35):
That's correct.
Mr. Kinsler (44:36):
Is there any significance to it being three months?
Sean O'Leary (44:41):
No.
Mr. Kinsler (44:45):
And again, you have a name and that's James Jobe and the same address, is that correct?
Sean O'Leary (44:49):
That is correct.
Mr. Kinsler (44:52):
And service start date, what was that?
Sean O'Leary (44:54):
That was the date that the account was opened or initiated.
Mr. Kinsler (45:04):
And the dealer info, that 80051100, do you know what that means?
Sean O'Leary (45:09):
That's an identification number for the Cricket reseller. It may be a store or a third-party business that's selling the Cricket phones.
Mr. Kinsler (45:23):
Is Cricket affiliated with AT&T?
Sean O'Leary (45:25):
They are.
Mr. Kinsler (45:25):
And how are they affiliated? How would you describe that?
Sean O'Leary (45:28):
They're, I believe, a wholly owned subsidiary. They operate in the prepaid phone space. They're basically a reseller for AT&T in that particular space.
Mr. Kinsler (45:52):
Does AT&T keep Cricket's records?
Sean O'Leary (45:54):
They do, yes.
Mr. Kinsler (45:56):
Do you ever testify as to Cricket records?
Sean O'Leary (45:58):
I do, yes.
Mr. Kinsler (46:02):
The information on here, I'm particularly interested in any of this information that would've been provided by the subscriber. Would the name be provided by the subscriber?
Sean O'Leary (46:13):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (46:14):
And does AT&T or Cricket do anything to verify that information?
Sean O'Leary (46:20):
No, not in a prepaid account.
Mr. Kinsler (46:24):
If someone, a prepaid Cricket account, are they required to give a name?
Sean O'Leary (46:31):
They do have to provide some name, but we don't check it.
Mr. Kinsler (46:37):
And I guess same question for the address. Does AT&T or Cricket do anything to verify the address?
Sean O'Leary (46:42):
Not in prepaid accounts, no.
Mr. Kinsler (46:43):
I'm going to show this witness State's Exhibit 20.
Judge (47:01):
Mr. Shimansky?
Mr. Shimansky (47:05):
Your Honor, no objection to 20.
Judge (47:06):
You may proceed.
Mr. Kinsler (47:09):
State's Exhibit 20, do you recognize this item?
Sean O'Leary (47:13):
I do.
Mr. Kinsler (47:14):
And what are we looking at?
Sean O'Leary (47:17):
These are our call detail records provided by AT&T for the cell phone number 580-317-3904 for the time period 9/15/2021 to 9/23/2021.
Mr. Kinsler (47:43):
And this PDF is 15 pages long, is that correct?
Sean O'Leary (47:45):
Yes, it is.
Mr. Kinsler (47:45):
I'm going to show the witness what's been marked as State's Exhibit 21.
Mr. Shimansky (47:54):
No objection.
Mr. Kinsler (47:55):
Recognize State's Exhibit 21?
Sean O'Leary (47:58):
Yes, I do.
Mr. Kinsler (48:06):
And can you tell us what these records are?
Sean O'Leary (48:09):
These are call detail records for cell phone number 918-658-0517 from the time period of 9/15/2021 to 9/23/2021.
Mr. Kinsler (48:27):
This is also contained the AT&T document record?
Sean O'Leary (48:28):
It does.
Mr. Kinsler (48:28):
And what is that number?
Sean O'Leary (48:29):
3814501.
Mr. Kinsler (48:38):
Show the witness what's been marked as State's Exhibit 22.
Judge (48:41):
Mr. Shimansky?
Mr. Shimansky (48:45):
Your Honor, no objection to 22.
Mr. Kinsler (48:48):
State's Exhibit 22, do you recognize that?
Sean O'Leary (48:50):
Yes, I do.
Mr. Kinsler (48:52):
And what are we looking at?
Sean O'Leary (48:54):
Call detail records provided by AT&T for the cell phone number of 214- 762-1057 from the time period of 9/14/2021 to 9/22/2021.
Mr. Kinsler (49:10):
And does this document also contain the AT&T document record number?
Sean O'Leary (49:15):
It does.
Mr. Kinsler (49:15):
And what is it?
Sean O'Leary (49:16):
3299005.
Mr. Kinsler (49:21):
Show the witness... Your Honor, I'd like to show the witness State's Exhibit 23.
Mr. Shimansky (49:26):
No objection, sir. Thank you.
Mr. Kinsler (49:28):
Do you recognize State's Exhibit 23?
Sean O'Leary (49:30):
I do.
Mr. Kinsler (49:34):
And what are we looking at?
Sean O'Leary (49:36):
Call detail records provided for mobile number 304-231-7299 from the time period of 3/1/2021 to 11/1/2021.
Mr. Kinsler (49:52):
And does this also contain an AT&T document record number?
Sean O'Leary (49:54):
It does.
Mr. Kinsler (49:54):
And what is it?
Sean O'Leary (49:55):
39389.
Mr. Kinsler (49:58):
Your Honor, I'd like to show the witness State's 22A.
Mr. Shimansky (50:03):
No objection, sir.
Judge (50:05):
You may proceed.
Mr. Kinsler (50:06):
State's Exhibit 22A, do you recognize this?
Sean O'Leary (50:09):
Yes, I do.
Mr. Kinsler (50:10):
And what are we looking at?
Sean O'Leary (50:11):
This is the historical precision location information page, records provided by AT&T for mobile number 214-762-1057. Time period, I can't see exactly. The latest date is 9/22-
Mr. Kinsler (50:38):
Of 2001?
Sean O'Leary (50:42):
9/22/2021, and then the originating date would be on the bottom of that.
Mr. Shimansky (50:57):
Judge, we're going to agree that the remainder of Mr. Kinsler's AT&T records are admissible and should be viewed by the jury.
Judge (51:12):
Mr. Kinsler?
Mr. Kinsler (51:14):
One moment, Your Honor.
Judge (51:25):
With Mr. Shimansky's stipulation, can you provide all of the exhibit numbers?
Mr. Kinsler (51:32):
Yes, Your Honor. State's Exhibit 17, these are phone records for number 580-372-4885. State's Exhibit 17A, these are also records from a phone number 580-372-4885. It's just a subset of State's Exhibit 17. It's a shorter timeframe from September 18, 2021 to September 23, 2021.
Mr. Shimansky (52:10):
No objection to that, Your Honor.
Mr. Kinsler (52:13):
Your Honor, State's Exhibit 18 are phone records from phone number 918-421-0503. And then there is also an 18A, which is a excerpt from that same phone records for 918-421-0503 for the timeframe on September 21st, 2021.
Judge (52:47):
And the remainder?
Mr. Kinsler (52:49):
I'm sorry? I think it's just that date, September 21st.
Judge (52:53):
Yeah, the-
Mr. Kinsler (52:53):
The remainder.
Judge (52:53):
... rest of your exhibits.
Mr. Kinsler (52:56):
And then 19 is phone records for 865-566-4775. 19A is also records, a shorter span of records for phone number 865-566-4775. Record 19B is a tower dump that is AT&T record 3298920. State's Exhibit 19C, which is the subscriber information for phone number 865-566-4775. State's Exhibit 20, phone records for the number 580-317-3904. State's Exhibit 21, which are phone records for the number 918-658-0517.
(54:11)
State's Exhibit 22, phone records for the number 214-762-1057. State's Exhibit 22A, which are NELOS or historical precision location data for that same number, 214-762-1057. State's Exhibit 23, which are phone records for the number 304-231-7299. State's Exhibit 23A, which is an excerpt from State's Exhibit 23, also for the phone number 304-231-7299. State's Exhibit 23B being the NELOS for historical precision location data for the same number, 304-231-7299.
(55:20)
State's Exhibit 24 being phone records from 918-318-0229, State's Exhibit 24A being phone records from the same number, 918-318-0229. They're an abridged or shorter version of State's Exhibit 24. State's Exhibit 24B, which are NELOS or precision historical location data for the number 918-318-0229, and State's Exhibit 165, which we describe as an omnibus record is all the records I've previously mentioned put together one response from AT&T.
Judge (56:07):
Is that all of them?
Mr. Kinsler (56:16):
That is all of them, Your Honor.
Judge (56:19):
And to each of those exhibits, Mr. Shimansky, you are stipulating that they are authentic records?
Mr. Shimansky (56:26):
Correct, Your Honor.
Mr. Kinsler (56:31):
We've talked about UTC. What is that?
Sean O'Leary (56:35):
It's universal time coordinated because AT&T is a global telecommunication company, they keep their records in this format, which is the same as Greenwich Mean Time. It's basically the start of the day in the world.
Mr. Kinsler (56:54):
Okay. And do you have any idea how far ahead is that from us?
Sean O'Leary (56:57):
Depending upon daylight savings time and standard time, it's either five hours behind or in daylight savings time, it's four hours behind.
Mr. Kinsler (57:06):
Okay. So if it's... And also, are these records kept in 24-hour time or 12-hour time?
Sean O'Leary (57:13):
I believe 24-hour time, yes.
Mr. Kinsler (57:15):
Okay.
Sean O'Leary (57:15):
Military time.
Mr. Kinsler (57:17):
So when we're looking at State's Exhibit 22A here, the connection time for that line item one reads 13:50 and 24 seconds, and that's Greenwich Mean Time?
Sean O'Leary (57:31):
That is correct.
Mr. Kinsler (57:32):
Is Greenwich Mean Time the same as UTC?
Sean O'Leary (57:34):
It is, yes.
Mr. Kinsler (57:36):
Okay. And today, how far ahead would that be? How different would that be for our time today in Eastern Daylight Savings Time?
Sean O'Leary (57:44):
Well, seeing the clocks just went backwards, I believe it would be back to five hours ahead of time. On Friday, it would've been four hours.
Mr. Kinsler (57:55):
And then that 13:50, what time of day would that be to non-military time?
Sean O'Leary (58:01):
It is 1:50 PM and 24 seconds.
Mr. Kinsler (58:09):
No further questions. Well, let me ask, the records we've talked about today, these are all true and accurate records kept by AT&T?
Sean O'Leary (58:17):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (58:20):
And they're all kept in the [inaudible 00:58:20] AT&T?
Sean O'Leary (58:20):
Yes, sir, they are.
Mr. Kinsler (58:22):
No further questions for this witness, Your Honor.
Judge (58:24):
Shimansky, do you wish to undertake any cross-examination?
Mr. Shimansky (58:29):
One second, Judge. No questions. Thank you, sir.
Judge (58:32):
All right. Mr. Kinsler, may this witness be excused?
Mr. Kinsler (58:37):
Yes, sir. Thank you.
Judge (58:38):
Thank you, sir.
Sean O'Leary (58:39):
Thank you, Your Honor.
Mr. Kinsler (58:39):
Approach, Your Honor?
Judge (58:44):
Yes. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, at this time, we're going to take a short recess. So Mr. Lawrence is going to escort you back to the jury room, stretch your legs, and then we'll resume. We're outside the presence of the jury. Mr. Babber, any issues the state needs to address?
Mr. Babber (58:59):
No, Judge.
Judge (59:00):
Mr. Shimansky?
Mr. Shimansky (59:01):
No, thank you, Your Honor.
Judge (59:02):
All right. I have 10:16. Let's try to resume in 15 minutes.
Mr. Shimansky (59:08):
Yes, sir.
Judge (59:08):
The court will be in recess at this time. Please everyone be seated. We are back on the record. State of Ohio versus Andrew Griffin. Mr. Griffin is present in the courtroom with his counsel. State of Ohio is present, and the jury is present in the courtroom as well. State ready to proceed?
Mr. Kinsler (59:32):
Yes, Your Honor. State calls Brett Cole.
Speaker 2 (59:33):
Do you swear the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Brett Cole (59:39):
Yes, sir.
Speaker 2 (59:39):
Have a seat. Speak into the mic.
Judge (59:43):
Good morning, sir.
Brett Cole (59:43):
Good morning.
Judge (59:48):
Do you object to being filmed?
Brett Cole (59:50):
I do not want to be on TV.
Judge (01:00:06):
All right. You may proceed.
Mr. Kinsler (01:00:06):
Thank you, Your Honor. Sir, please state your name.
Brett Cole (01:00:09):
Brett Cole.
Mr. Kinsler (01:00:10):
If you would do your best to keep your voice up and project to the back of the room, okay? Spell your last name.
Brett Cole (01:00:17):
C-O-L-E.
Mr. Kinsler (01:00:20):
Mr. Cole, let's get the obvious out of the way. You're in federal custody, is that right?
Brett Cole (01:00:25):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:00:26):
Okay. You have previously been convicted of three felony sexual offenses, is that right?
Brett Cole (01:00:31):
Correct.
Mr. Kinsler (01:00:32):
Am I correct in stating they are two counts of aggravated sexual abuse in Indian country?
Brett Cole (01:00:39):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:00:40):
And one count of abusive sexual contact in Indian country?
Brett Cole (01:00:43):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:00:46):
You're currently serving a sentence, is that right?
Brett Cole (01:00:48):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:00:49):
How long is that sentence?
Brett Cole (01:00:51):
Three life sentences.
Mr. Kinsler (01:00:56):
Your conviction, did that take place in March of 2023?
Brett Cole (01:00:59):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:01:05):
You are also here to testify, correct?
Brett Cole (01:01:08):
Correct.
Mr. Kinsler (01:01:09):
And prior to your testimony, you received an immunity agreement, is that right?
Brett Cole (01:01:13):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:01:14):
Okay. What is your understanding of that agreement?
Brett Cole (01:01:17):
As long as I had no direct involvement and I tell the truth of the questions asked, that I will receive immunity.
Mr. Kinsler (01:01:26):
Okay. Does that mean you won't be charged for your role in the Strussions' murder?
Brett Cole (01:01:30):
Right.
Mr. Kinsler (01:01:32):
Is that correct?
Brett Cole (01:01:32):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:01:36):
Okay. Did you also have conversations in that immunity agreement? Well, first of all, that immunity agreement, did you have counsel for that?
Brett Cole (01:01:42):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:01:43):
Okay. And in your conversations with counsel and with the state, were there any other agreements made?
Brett Cole (01:01:54):
Can you repeat that?
Mr. Kinsler (01:01:56):
In that immunity agreement, did you receive any other benefit other than not being charged for your role in the Strussions' murder?
Brett Cole (01:02:02):
No.
Mr. Kinsler (01:02:03):
Okay. Was there a discussion of the state trying to assist in moving you to another federal prison?
Brett Cole (01:02:10):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:02:11):
What was your understanding of that?
Brett Cole (01:02:13):
They said they would try to move me to a closer location to home.
Mr. Kinsler (01:02:18):
Okay. Would that closer location be what?
Brett Cole (01:02:23):
Cedarville, Texas or Texarkana.
Mr. Kinsler (01:02:25):
Okay. That make you closer to your family?
Brett Cole (01:02:28):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:02:28):
Where are you currently... What federal prison have you been staying at most recently?
Brett Cole (01:02:34):
In Illinois.
Mr. Kinsler (01:02:42):
Okay. Independent of the immunity agreement, did the state put money on your books when you were in the job at Belmont County Jail?
Brett Cole (01:02:50):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:02:50):
How much money?
Brett Cole (01:02:51):
300 on my books while I was at the jail.
Mr. Kinsler (01:02:55):
Okay. Was there another occasion where they put money on your books?
Brett Cole (01:02:59):
They gave my brother or my mom $250 to put on my books in prison.
Mr. Kinsler (01:03:04):
And would that have been when you were in Illinois?
Brett Cole (01:03:05):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:03:06):
Okay. Why was that?
Brett Cole (01:03:11):
I mean, whenever I come here on a writ, I lose money because I run a store in prison, so I lose money sometimes. When I come here, people don't get to pay me back, so they just reimburse me for what I've lost.
Mr. Kinsler (01:03:25):
Okay. When you say you run a store in prison, what does that mean?
Brett Cole (01:03:29):
I stock up on commissary, so when people do run out, they can just come to me and I have to wait till a store date.
Mr. Kinsler (01:03:36):
Okay. So you're marking that stuff up and selling it to prisoners?
Brett Cole (01:03:39):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:03:40):
Is that allowed in prison?
Brett Cole (01:03:41):
No, not really. Yes and no.
Mr. Kinsler (01:03:49):
When investigators first came to talk to you about this case, do you remember that?
Brett Cole (01:03:55):
When they first came to talk to me?
Mr. Kinsler (01:03:55):
Yes.
Brett Cole (01:03:55):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:03:59):
And what did you tell them then?
Brett Cole (01:04:01):
When they come to Oklahoma?
Mr. Kinsler (01:04:03):
Yes.
Brett Cole (01:04:04):
I told them I don't know nothing and I wanted a lawyer.
Mr. Kinsler (01:04:08):
Okay. Were you in custody at that time?
Brett Cole (01:04:11):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:04:12):
Was that in local jail in Oklahoma?
Brett Cole (01:04:14):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:04:15):
Was that on related charges to what you were in federal prison for now?
Brett Cole (01:04:21):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:04:25):
Subsequent to that conversation, did you talk to a lawyer?
Brett Cole (01:04:29):
I talked to my pet lawyer.
Mr. Kinsler (01:04:31):
Okay. And was that lawyer involved in ironing out the immunity agreement or was that someone else?
Brett Cole (01:04:38):
No, that was someone else.
Mr. Kinsler (01:04:40):
Okay. You mentioned that first contact, that was in Oklahoma?
Brett Cole (01:04:45):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:04:46):
Okay. Subsequent to that, you got convicted?
Brett Cole (01:04:49):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:04:49):
Okay. And at some juncture, you were brought to Belmont, Ohio?
Brett Cole (01:04:53):
Right.
Mr. Kinsler (01:04:54):
Where were you located first when you were brought to Belmont, Ohio?
Brett Cole (01:04:59):
Illinois. In prison.
Mr. Kinsler (01:05:01):
And at that point you've been convicted, is that correct?
Brett Cole (01:05:04):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:05:05):
And you mentioned a writ, you were brought back to Belmont?
Brett Cole (01:05:08):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:05:09):
Is that the first time you've been to Ohio?
Brett Cole (01:05:10):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:05:13):
And on that occasion, you worked with another attorney, is that right?
Brett Cole (01:05:17):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:05:18):
Okay. And then that's when this immunity agreement came in form?
Brett Cole (01:05:21):
Correct.
Mr. Kinsler (01:05:21):
Okay. As part of that immunity agreement, what are you expected to do?
Brett Cole (01:05:33):
I don't know really. I don't expect to get charged for any involvement.
Mr. Kinsler (01:05:41):
And in return for not being charged, what are you supposed to do?
Brett Cole (01:05:46):
Testify.
Mr. Kinsler (01:05:49):
And is that immunity agreement conditioned on you giving truthful testimony?
Brett Cole (01:05:52):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:05:53):
Meaning what? If you don't give truthful testimony, what happens?
Brett Cole (01:05:56):
Then it is not an option, I guess.
Mr. Kinsler (01:05:56):
Then if you gave an untruthful testimony, would you be able to be charged then for your role in the murders?
Brett Cole (01:06:08):
From my understanding, yeah.
Mr. Kinsler (01:06:12):
Do you know Andrew Griffin?
Brett Cole (01:06:14):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:06:15):
How long have you known Andrew Griffin?
Brett Cole (01:06:17):
We grew up together.
Mr. Kinsler (01:06:18):
Okay. And so have you known him your whole life?
Brett Cole (01:06:23):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:06:24):
Okay. How would you describe your relationship to him?
Brett Cole (01:06:27):
I mean, we were close.
Mr. Kinsler (01:06:31):
At any juncture, did you work on Mr. Griffin's property?
Brett Cole (01:06:34):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:06:35):
Explain to the jury what you mean by that.
Brett Cole (01:06:37):
I mean, we built tents, work cows, run the dozer, just farm work.
Mr. Kinsler (01:06:45):
Would the defendant pay you for that?
Brett Cole (01:06:47):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:06:48):
Okay. Do you recall how he would pay you?
Brett Cole (01:06:50):
Sometimes cash, sometimes checks.
Mr. Kinsler (01:06:53):
Okay. Your Honor, I'd like to show the witness State's Exhibit 137CCC.
Mr. Shimansky (01:07:12):
No problem, Your Honor.
Judge (01:07:14):
All right. You may proceed.
Mr. Kinsler (01:07:15):
Thank you, Your Honor. Showing you what's been marked as State's Exhibit 137CCC, and I'm going to direct you to page five specifically. I think we're on the bottom half of page five. Do you recognize that item?
Brett Cole (01:07:43):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:07:43):
What is that?
Brett Cole (01:07:44):
A check.
Mr. Kinsler (01:07:48):
And who is the check to?
Brett Cole (01:07:50):
Me.
Mr. Kinsler (01:07:50):
And who is it from?
Brett Cole (01:07:52):
Andrew.
Mr. Kinsler (01:07:53):
Okay. Does the memo item contain information at the bottom left of the first page of the check?
Brett Cole (01:08:00):
Bottom left, first page of the check. Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:08:09):
And what is that?
Brett Cole (01:08:11):
The bottom line?
Mr. Kinsler (01:08:13):
I mean, if you can look up here, I'm going to point out right there what's written on that memo line.
Brett Cole (01:08:18):
Fuel.
Mr. Kinsler (01:08:19):
Do you have any idea what this payment was for?
Brett Cole (01:08:22):
I mean, possibly dozer fuel or work I've done on his land.
Mr. Kinsler (01:08:32):
Was it common that you would purchase fuel for the defendant?
Brett Cole (01:08:35):
Sometimes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:08:36):
Okay. And he would reimburse you with a check like this?
Brett Cole (01:08:39):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:08:39):
Okay. And this took place, the check is written August 12th, 2021. Did you know the defendant at that time?
Brett Cole (01:08:47):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:08:48):
Did you work for him at that time?
Brett Cole (01:08:51):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:08:52):
And that check, which I think is 20... I can't quite make out the check number, but it's dated August 12th, 2021. On the reverse side, there's an endorsement. Do you recognize that signature?
Brett Cole (01:09:30):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:09:30):
Whose is that?
Brett Cole (01:09:31):
That's my signature.
Mr. Kinsler (01:09:32):
We're now on page seven of State's Exhibit 1...
Mr. Kinsler (01:10:01):
We're now on page seven of State's Exhibit 137CCC. We're looking at another check. Do you recognize who that's to?
Brett Cole (01:10:11):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:10:11):
And who's that to?
Brett Cole (01:10:12):
Me.
Mr. Kinsler (01:10:14):
And it was for $260?
Brett Cole (01:10:16):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:10:18):
On 8/19/2021?
Brett Cole (01:10:21):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:10:22):
And in the memo line it says, "Dozer repair." Do you recognize that?
Brett Cole (01:10:26):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:10:27):
Okay. Did you ever do dozer repairs for the defendant?
Brett Cole (01:10:31):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:10:31):
Where did he keep a dozer?
Brett Cole (01:10:35):
Usually on the land where the camper was at or at the river place.
Mr. Kinsler (01:10:38):
Okay. Explain those two locations to the best of your ability to the jury. The land where the camper was at, where would that have been?
Brett Cole (01:10:44):
It would've been the southernmost land that he owned.
Mr. Kinsler (01:10:49):
What would've been the closest town?
Brett Cole (01:10:52):
Muse or Whitesboro.
Mr. Kinsler (01:10:53):
Okay. And then you mentioned a river location. Where would that have been?
Brett Cole (01:11:00):
A couple of miles north.
Mr. Kinsler (01:11:01):
Is that also close to Whitesboro?
Brett Cole (01:11:03):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:11:03):
Would Whitesboro have been the closest location to the river place?
Brett Cole (01:11:07):
Yeah. Whitesboro or Muse is kind of in between.
Mr. Kinsler (01:11:14):
Okay. Then the camper location you're mentioning, why do you call it the camper location?
Brett Cole (01:11:19):
It's just where the camper was at.
Mr. Kinsler (01:11:21):
Was there a house on that property?
Brett Cole (01:11:23):
No.
Mr. Kinsler (01:11:23):
Just a camper?
Brett Cole (01:11:24):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:11:25):
Who stayed in that camper?
Brett Cole (01:11:27):
Me and Dalton Ray.
Mr. Kinsler (01:11:29):
In what timeframe would you and Dalton Ray have stayed in that camper?
Brett Cole (01:11:33):
We stayed in it on and off throughout the summer, working even in the winter.
Mr. Kinsler (01:11:40):
And would Dalton work on that property as well?
Brett Cole (01:11:43):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:11:44):
And what sort of work would Dalton do?
Brett Cole (01:11:46):
Build tents, work cows, run chainsaw, brush hog.
Mr. Kinsler (01:11:53):
So this property where the camper's located, what was it used for?
Brett Cole (01:11:58):
Mostly hunting.
Mr. Kinsler (01:12:00):
Okay. Was there any effort to develop it to put a house on it or anything like that?
Brett Cole (01:12:05):
No. We was pushing roads in, really cleaning it up for hunting.
Mr. Kinsler (01:12:13):
Okay. Back to this check on State's Exhibit 137CCC. On the reverse side, there's an endorsement there. Do you recognize that signature?
Brett Cole (01:12:24):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:12:25):
And whose signature is that?
Brett Cole (01:12:26):
Mine.
Mr. Kinsler (01:12:27):
You indicated that you knew the defendant because you've known the defendant your whole life, is that correct?
Brett Cole (01:12:32):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:12:32):
Who is older, he or you?
Brett Cole (01:12:34):
I'm older.
Mr. Kinsler (01:12:35):
And how old are you now?
Brett Cole (01:12:36):
36.
Mr. Kinsler (01:12:37):
Okay. How many years older are you?
Brett Cole (01:12:42):
I'm not sure.
Mr. Kinsler (01:12:45):
Okay. Was your family also close to the defendant?
Brett Cole (01:12:47):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:12:48):
Your Honor, let me back that up. Is Andrew Griffin present in the courtroom?
Brett Cole (01:12:55):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (01:12:55):
Stipulating he's identified Mr. Griffin seated at counsel table, Your Honor.
Judge (01:12:59):
Stipulation is noted.
Mr. Kinsler (01:13:00):
Thank you. Was Andrew Griffin close to your family as well?
Brett Cole (01:13:06):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:13:06):
Who would he have been close to in your family?
Brett Cole (01:13:10):
My grandma and my grandpa.
Mr. Kinsler (01:13:11):
And who are they? What are their names?
Brett Cole (01:13:13):
Arthur and Judy Cole.
Mr. Kinsler (01:13:15):
Where do Arthur and Judy live?
Brett Cole (01:13:18):
Big Cedar.
Mr. Kinsler (01:13:19):
Is that in Oklahoma?
Brett Cole (01:13:20):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:13:21):
How far away from Whitesboro?
Judge (01:13:22):
Can I interrupt you? Mr. Cole, I know it's difficult. I need you to speak a little bit louder.
Brett Cole (01:13:26):
Yes, sir.
Judge (01:13:27):
This court reporter's taking everything.
Brett Cole (01:13:29):
Yes, sir.
Judge (01:13:29):
Thank you. You may proceed.
Mr. Kinsler (01:13:32):
And I'm sorry, you said where did Arthur and Judy live?
Brett Cole (01:13:34):
Big Cedar, Oklahoma.
Mr. Kinsler (01:13:36):
And where is that relative to Whitesboro?
Brett Cole (01:13:41):
Roughly 15 miles east.
Mr. Kinsler (01:13:46):
How would you describe the defendant's relationship with Arthur and Judy?
Brett Cole (01:13:52):
I mean, they helped raise him, so they were close.
Mr. Kinsler (01:13:56):
Okay. Would he frequently be at their house?
Brett Cole (01:13:58):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:13:58):
Okay. What would he call Arthur and Judy?
Brett Cole (01:14:12):
He would call Arthur, Buddy and Judy, Judy.
Mr. Kinsler (01:14:25):
When you got in your legal troubles, how did you pay for your legal defense?
Brett Cole (01:14:34):
My fed lawyer, Andrew had hired my fed lawyer.
Mr. Kinsler (01:14:38):
Do you have any idea how much he paid your fed lawyer?
Brett Cole (01:14:42):
He told me around 30,000, but my lawyer said around 15 to 20,000. I can't remember exactly.
Mr. Kinsler (01:14:48):
Okay. Prior to your federal charges, had the defendant helped you pay legal expenses or repaid legal expenses?
Brett Cole (01:14:55):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:14:56):
And explain that to the jury.
Brett Cole (01:14:59):
At first, my case was state and I had another friend hire my lawyer. When I got out of jail, Andrew loaned me the money to pay them back because it was several people loaning me money to hire my state lawyers. So instead of owing a bunch of people, Andrew gave me the money to pay them and I just owed him.
Mr. Kinsler (01:15:38):
After you were incarcerated, did you give the defendant power of attorney?
Brett Cole (01:15:42):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:15:43):
Did you ask him to do anything with that power of attorney?
Brett Cole (01:15:46):
Take care of my financial stuff.
Mr. Kinsler (01:15:49):
Okay. Did you give him passwords to your financial accounts?
Brett Cole (01:15:52):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:15:59):
Did you entrust your personal possessions, like your truck or your phone to the defendant?
Brett Cole (01:16:06):
He was supposed to take my truck. Really, I wanted my phone left with my mom, but he did have my phone also.
Mr. Kinsler (01:16:14):
What's your mom's name?
Brett Cole (01:16:16):
Carolyn Babcock.
Mr. Kinsler (01:16:18):
Okay. Where does she live?
Brett Cole (01:16:19):
Hugo, Oklahoma.
Mr. Kinsler (01:16:24):
Did you have a phone back at this time? In 2021, did you have a phone?
Brett Cole (01:16:30):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:16:30):
What kind of phone?
Brett Cole (01:16:30):
IPhone 11.
Mr. Kinsler (01:16:33):
And would that have been on your mom's account?
Brett Cole (01:16:36):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:16:38):
Your Honor, I'd like to show the defendant State's Exhibit 25.
Speaker 4 (01:16:41):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge (01:16:42):
You may proceed then.
Mr. Kinsler (01:16:57):
Showing the top of what has previously been marked as State's Exhibit 25, up at the top left, do you see the name Carolyn Babcock? I'm going to point to it up here, so if you look up here first.
Brett Cole (01:17:11):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:17:12):
And that's your mother?
Brett Cole (01:17:13):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:17:14):
Do you recognize the phone number 580-372-3870?
Brett Cole (01:17:20):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:17:21):
Whose number would that have been?
Brett Cole (01:17:22):
That was my number.
Mr. Kinsler (01:17:24):
You were on your mom's plan?
Brett Cole (01:17:25):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:17:37):
When investigators initially came to see you and you were in jail in Oklahoma, you did not talk to them about this case, correct?
Brett Cole (01:17:44):
Correct.
Mr. Kinsler (01:17:45):
Why not?
Brett Cole (01:17:47):
My fed lawyer advised me not to.
Mr. Kinsler (01:17:51):
Okay. When you were in jail in Oklahoma?
Brett Cole (01:17:52):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:17:52):
Okay. Did you feel loyalty to the defendant? Did you feel loyalty to Andrew Griffin?
Brett Cole (01:18:01):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:18:02):
Why did you feel loyalty to him?
Brett Cole (01:18:05):
Just because he's like a little brother.
Mr. Kinsler (01:18:11):
Okay. Were you also concerned about yourself being charged for your involvement in the murders?
Brett Cole (01:18:15):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:18:22):
Did you also have concern about being a snitch?
Brett Cole (01:18:24):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:18:25):
Why is that?
Brett Cole (01:18:26):
Because I knew I was going to prison.
Mr. Kinsler (01:18:31):
Okay. Was it difficult to be a snitch in prison?
Brett Cole (01:18:33):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:18:34):
How so?
Brett Cole (01:18:37):
You can get killed.
Mr. Kinsler (01:18:40):
Do you recall the defendant ever telling you about going into business in Ohio or West Virginia?
Brett Cole (01:18:47):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:18:48):
What did he tell you about that?
Brett Cole (01:18:51):
He said he was going and partners to open up a Salsa Joe's.
Mr. Kinsler (01:18:55):
Where was that to be located?
Brett Cole (01:18:59):
From our discussions, he always said West Virginia.
Mr. Kinsler (01:19:02):
Did you ever come to that Salsa Joe's?
Brett Cole (01:19:05):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:19:06):
I asked you your first time to Ohio was when the writ was issued and you were brought here, correct?
Brett Cole (01:19:10):
Correct.
Mr. Kinsler (01:19:12):
Have you ever been to West Virginia?
Brett Cole (01:19:13):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:19:15):
Had you ever met Tom Strussion?
Brett Cole (01:19:17):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:19:18):
Had you ever met Angela Strussion?
Brett Cole (01:19:19):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:19:21):
Had you heard about them though?
Brett Cole (01:19:22):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:19:23):
Who would you have heard about them from?
Brett Cole (01:19:25):
Andrew.
Mr. Kinsler (01:19:31):
What did the defendant tell you about his plans for Salsa Joe's?
Brett Cole (01:19:36):
He was supposed to help get the new one started, learn the business, and then open up more Salsa Joe's in Oklahoma.
Mr. Kinsler (01:19:46):
Did you have any idea how many he was going to open?
Brett Cole (01:19:49):
He talked about four or five.
Mr. Kinsler (01:19:52):
Okay. Did he ever tell you how much he invested personally in the Salsa Joe's in West Virginia?
Brett Cole (01:19:59):
I think he said around 100 to 130,000.
Mr. Kinsler (01:20:08):
Do you recall him coming up here to West Virginia to work on that restaurant?
Brett Cole (01:20:13):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:20:14):
And do you recall him ever coming back afterward?
Brett Cole (01:20:17):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:20:19):
Did he ever tell you why he came back?
Brett Cole (01:20:23):
If he did, I don't remember.
Mr. Kinsler (01:20:25):
Did he ever have any complaints about Tom Strussion, his business partner?
Brett Cole (01:20:32):
Not early on.
Mr. Kinsler (01:20:34):
Okay. Not early on, but then later on, did he?
Brett Cole (01:20:37):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:20:38):
What were his complaints?
Brett Cole (01:20:41):
He said that Tom was supposed to, trying to take his money and leave the state.
Mr. Kinsler (01:20:52):
Where was Tom supposed to be leaving to?
Brett Cole (01:20:54):
Florida.
Mr. Kinsler (01:20:56):
Did you have any idea what timeframe that was supposed to be happening?
Brett Cole (01:20:59):
No.
Mr. Kinsler (01:21:10):
The defendant ever complain to you about money from the business or there being a lack of money from the business?
Brett Cole (01:21:15):
No. He said the business was doing good, at first.
Mr. Kinsler (01:21:21):
Did he tell you something different later on?
Brett Cole (01:21:25):
He never said the business did bad, I don't think.
Mr. Kinsler (01:21:32):
At some juncture, do you get involved with the defendant in planning the Strussion's murder?
Brett Cole (01:21:38):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:21:39):
How does that come about?
Brett Cole (01:21:45):
He had talked about Tom trying to put a hit out on him, so it was pretty much a kill or be killed situation.
Mr. Kinsler (01:22:00):
Did the defendant tell you why someone would take out a hit on Tom or take a hit on him?
Brett Cole (01:22:12):
He had said the building they rented for the store was owned by some mobsters and that Tom had owed them a big debt, but he said Tom was trying to put the debt off on him to make it look like Andrew owed the debt, so then the people would go after Andrew instead of after Tom.
Mr. Kinsler (01:22:34):
The information you have about this, does that all come from the defendant?
Brett Cole (01:22:38):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:22:46):
How often did you talk about the murders before they happened?
Brett Cole (01:22:53):
We planned it for a while.
Mr. Kinsler (01:22:56):
Who's we? Who's involved in that discussion?
Brett Cole (01:22:59):
Me and Andrew.
Mr. Kinsler (01:23:00):
Anybody else involved in the discussion before the murders?
Brett Cole (01:23:05):
Not as far as planning.
Mr. Kinsler (01:23:08):
What was the original plan?
Brett Cole (01:23:11):
He wanted to just jump in the truck and drive up here, and then he asked me to borrow my truck to drive up here and I told him no.
Mr. Kinsler (01:23:20):
And did you make any suggestions to him about what he should do?
Brett Cole (01:23:24):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:23:25):
What did you suggest?
Brett Cole (01:23:27):
I suggested he should get a motorcycle. We can buy one off of Craigslist or Facebook, fairly cheap. Suggested he wear Frog Toggs with gloves, tape up the cuffs so no DNA can get out. I suggest he use a revolver for no shell casings left behind. Several things.
Mr. Kinsler (01:24:02):
Why a motorcycle?
Brett Cole (01:24:07):
Because a lot of times with a motorcycle, your license plate is on the back, you can hang a backpack or a bag to cover that area so the cops can't see your tags. And also, if you're speeding, usually the cops will just flash their lights at you, they won't pull you over. And I was hoping he'd wreck on the way, you know what I mean?
Mr. Kinsler (01:24:33):
Why was that?
Brett Cole (01:24:34):
To keep him from doing it.
Mr. Kinsler (01:24:37):
So you planned this with him, but you didn't want him to do it?
Brett Cole (01:24:40):
Absolutely not.
Mr. Kinsler (01:24:42):
Okay. Can you explain that to the jury? Why don't you want him to do this?
Brett Cole (01:24:49):
I mean, you don't want your friend to kill anybody because this happens.
Mr. Kinsler (01:24:55):
But you also did actively help him plan it?
Brett Cole (01:24:58):
I did.
Mr. Kinsler (01:24:59):
Okay. Can you explain that to the jury? Why would you do that?
Brett Cole (01:25:03):
Trying to protect him.
Mr. Kinsler (01:25:05):
You're trying to protect him from getting caught?
Brett Cole (01:25:07):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:25:14):
You mentioned Frog Toggs. What are those?
Brett Cole (01:25:17):
Frog Toggs are just a brand of a rain suit.
Mr. Kinsler (01:25:21):
Did you ever own those?
Brett Cole (01:25:23):
I may have in the past, but it's been a long time ago.
Mr. Kinsler (01:25:29):
And you mentioned using a revolver. Why a revolver?
Brett Cole (01:25:32):
Because it does not eject the shell casings, so you don't have to go around picking up casings after the murders.
Mr. Kinsler (01:25:46):
You say you didn't want him to do this, but you didn't warn authorities in advance, did you?
Brett Cole (01:25:51):
No.
Mr. Kinsler (01:25:51):
You didn't call the Strussion's or anybody else to stop this from happening?
Brett Cole (01:25:55):
No.
Mr. Kinsler (01:26:01):
Was the original plan to kill both Tom and Angela?
Brett Cole (01:26:04):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:26:05):
Explain to the jury what you mean by that.
Brett Cole (01:26:07):
The plan was just to kill Tom.
Mr. Kinsler (01:26:10):
And why just Tom?
Brett Cole (01:26:13):
I mean, that's the one that was supposedly putting the hit out on him.
Mr. Kinsler (01:26:17):
Okay. Angela wasn't involved in that?
Brett Cole (01:26:19):
Not that I'm aware of.
Mr. Kinsler (01:26:29):
Did you and the defendant discuss how he would do this?
Brett Cole (01:26:35):
We discussed that he would use a 22.
Mr. Kinsler (01:26:38):
Why a 22?
Brett Cole (01:26:41):
It's just quiet and effective.
Mr. Kinsler (01:26:50):
Prior to the murder, did you have any discussion about his phone, what to do with his phone?
Brett Cole (01:26:54):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:26:55):
Whose idea was that?
Brett Cole (01:26:59):
That was probably a joint idea.
Mr. Kinsler (01:27:02):
And what was the idea?
Brett Cole (01:27:04):
I would keep his phone while he was gone, take pictures on Snapchat and text Stacey, his wife at the time.
Mr. Kinsler (01:27:16):
I'm sorry, could you repeat that, what you said about Stacey?
Brett Cole (01:27:19):
I was to text her back and forth while he was gone.
Mr. Kinsler (01:27:25):
Okay. Did you ever talk to Stacey about the murders?
Brett Cole (01:27:27):
No.
Mr. Kinsler (01:27:29):
What did you understand from the defendant? Was Stacey involved in this?
Brett Cole (01:27:33):
He told me she knew about it and knew that she was supposed to text me back and forth while he was gone.
Mr. Kinsler (01:27:39):
Okay. Did she support this?
Brett Cole (01:27:42):
I don't know. I didn't talk to her.
Mr. Kinsler (01:27:46):
Okay. Did the defendant tell you anything about her being in favor of this plan?
Brett Cole (01:27:50):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:27:50):
What did he tell you?
Brett Cole (01:27:53):
He said she was okay with it. She wanted it to happen because Tom had their personal address and she could be in danger just like Andrew could.
Mr. Kinsler (01:28:09):
You mentioned taping of cuffs. What did you mean by that?
Brett Cole (01:28:14):
Putting Frog Toggs on with long sleeves, your gloves on, and taping the cuffs up.
Mr. Kinsler (01:28:21):
Why do you do that?
Brett Cole (01:28:23):
To prevent sweat or hair DNA getting out.
Mr. Kinsler (01:28:29):
Whose idea was that, do you recall?
Brett Cole (01:28:31):
Mine.
Mr. Kinsler (01:28:35):
Did you ever discuss what the defendant was going to wear on his feet?
Brett Cole (01:28:38):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:28:39):
What was that discussion?
Brett Cole (01:28:42):
I told him he should wear different size boots or shoes so it would leave different footprints. And a different size, not to his size.
Mr. Kinsler (01:28:56):
Did you talk about how he was going to pay for gas on this trip?
Brett Cole (01:28:59):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:29:00):
And what was that discussion?
Brett Cole (01:29:03):
I advised him to use prepaid fuel cards so he wouldn't have to go into stores to pay for gas.
Mr. Kinsler (01:29:10):
Okay. And what is the point of that?
Brett Cole (01:29:14):
To stay off camera.
Mr. Kinsler (01:29:21):
Did you talk at all about him getting a phone for this trip?
Brett Cole (01:29:24):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:29:25):
What was that conversation?
Brett Cole (01:29:28):
We just planned on him getting a burner phone, so if he needed to use the maps... Obviously I had his phone in Oklahoma the whole time, so he would need something for maps or to call me when he was getting back.
Mr. Kinsler (01:29:47):
All these things we're talking about, were they your idea?
Brett Cole (01:29:52):
Most of them.
Mr. Kinsler (01:29:53):
What, if anything, was his idea?
Brett Cole (01:29:56):
The killing.
Mr. Kinsler (01:30:03):
You mentioned his phone. What were you supposed to do with his phone?
Brett Cole (01:30:07):
I just take pictures and put it on Snapchat and text Stacey back and forth.
Mr. Kinsler (01:30:14):
Okay. Were you supposed to travel anywhere?
Brett Cole (01:30:17):
Originally, we were supposed to stay on the camper place and say we were camping all weekend, but I ended up going back to my house in Hugo.
Mr. Kinsler (01:30:27):
Okay. So fair to say some of the things you planned or you discussed with the defendant that you were going to do, you wound up doing something different?
Brett Cole (01:30:33):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:30:36):
Did he give you anything else other than his phone?
Brett Cole (01:30:38):
I had his truck keys, had his bank card. That's all I can remember right off.
Mr. Kinsler (01:30:55):
What were you supposed to do with his truck or his truck keys?
Brett Cole (01:30:58):
His truck. I drove his truck around all over his land, getting it on game cameras. So there was pictures of his truck still in Oklahoma.
Mr. Kinsler (01:31:12):
Explain that to the jurors. What kind of cameras are we talking about?
Brett Cole (01:31:15):
There's some game cameras. They're like trail cam, you can get deer and wildlife out. You set it up on a tree or in front of a feeder and you get pictures of your wildlife.
Mr. Kinsler (01:31:33):
And you mentioned a bank or debit card, he gave you his?
Brett Cole (01:31:36):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:31:37):
What were you supposed to do with that?
Brett Cole (01:31:40):
Use it.
Mr. Kinsler (01:31:41):
And did you use it?
Brett Cole (01:31:43):
I believe I did.
Mr. Kinsler (01:31:44):
Okay. Do you remember what you did with it?
Brett Cole (01:31:47):
Probably bought fuel with it.
Mr. Kinsler (01:31:56):
Okay. We were talking about you, you and he discussed the phone, you having his phone, did you have any instructions? Did you guys have an agreement about what you were supposed to do with phone calls?
Brett Cole (01:32:06):
I was not supposed to answer phone calls or any other text messages, other than Stacey.
Mr. Kinsler (01:32:18):
Okay. You mentioned the motorcycle, that was your idea?
Brett Cole (01:32:20):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:32:21):
Were you familiar with motorcycles at that point?
Brett Cole (01:32:24):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:32:24):
Was the defendant familiar with motorcycles at that point?
Brett Cole (01:32:27):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:32:28):
Okay. Had you ever known him to ride?
Brett Cole (01:32:30):
No.
Mr. Kinsler (01:32:30):
Okay. What was your involvement with the motorcycle?
Brett Cole (01:32:34):
I went to Texas and purchased the motorcycle. I held it, I don't know, roughly a week to two weeks, and then he called and said he wanted it, and then I delivered it to Andrew.
Mr. Kinsler (01:32:51):
Let's talk about the purchase of the motorcycle. How'd you find it?
Brett Cole (01:32:55):
Facebook Marketplace.
Mr. Kinsler (01:32:57):
Okay. Where was it located?
Brett Cole (01:32:59):
In Texas.
Mr. Kinsler (01:33:01):
And how did you pay for it?
Brett Cole (01:33:04):
Cash.
Mr. Kinsler (01:33:06):
Who gave you the cash?
Brett Cole (01:33:07):
Andrew.
Mr. Kinsler (01:33:08):
How much cash did he give you?
Brett Cole (01:33:12):
I don't remember right off. It was between four to $5,000.
Mr. Kinsler (01:33:15):
Do you remember how much you paid for the bike?
Brett Cole (01:33:17):
Between 3,500 and 4,000, roughly.
Mr. Kinsler (01:33:23):
What became of the extra cash you had then?
Brett Cole (01:33:25):
I kept it for fuel cost.
Mr. Kinsler (01:33:28):
Did anybody go with you on that trip?
Brett Cole (01:33:30):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:33:31):
Who was that?
Brett Cole (01:33:32):
Dalton Ray.
Mr. Kinsler (01:33:34):
Who is Dalton Ray?
Brett Cole (01:33:37):
That's one of my friends.
Mr. Kinsler (01:33:40):
How long have you known Dalton?
Brett Cole (01:33:47):
Since 2019.
Mr. Kinsler (01:33:50):
And how did you first meet him?
Brett Cole (01:33:52):
In county jail.
Mr. Kinsler (01:33:53):
Okay. And did he also work on the property?
Brett Cole (01:33:59):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:34:02):
Okay. He went with you to purchase the motorcycle?
Brett Cole (01:34:05):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:34:06):
Did he know about this murder plot at that point?
Brett Cole (01:34:12):
He may have knew bits and pieces. He didn't know details.
Mr. Kinsler (01:34:16):
Okay. Would he have ever been in part of your discussions with the defendant about the plot?
Brett Cole (01:34:24):
Can you repeat that?
Mr. Kinsler (01:34:26):
Prior to the murders, was Dalton Ray ever a party to the conversations you would've had with the defendant about this?
Brett Cole (01:34:32):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:34:36):
Would anything he would've learned about it been from you?
Brett Cole (01:34:39):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:34:54):
When you went to purchase the motorcycle, did you have phone conversations with the defendant?
Brett Cole (01:34:58):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:34:59):
Do you remember what that was about?
Brett Cole (01:35:01):
I talked to him, telling him it was a good bike. I think it would be roadworthy, and I don't remember everything we talked about.
Mr. Kinsler (01:35:20):
Okay. Do you recall filling out paperwork for the motorcycle when you purchased it?
Brett Cole (01:35:35):
He asked me to fill out the paperwork, and I let that man filled it out.
Mr. Kinsler (01:35:41):
That man being the seller?
Brett Cole (01:35:42):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:35:44):
And when he was looking for buyer information, where did he get that from?
Brett Cole (01:35:49):
I had either called or text Andrew, I can't remember, to ask him what he wanted me to put on the paper.
Mr. Kinsler (01:35:57):
And he gave you that information?
Brett Cole (01:35:59):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:35:59):
So whatever the defendant relayed to you, you relayed to Mr. White?
Brett Cole (01:36:02):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:36:03):
Do you remember anything about the bike, like what kind of bike it was?
Brett Cole (01:36:14):
I'll remember if I seen it. I think it was a Kawasaki. It was a big bike, had saddlebags, windshield, speakers, a cup holder, a phone holder. I just don't remember the exact model.
Mr. Kinsler (01:36:34):
What did you do with the bike after you purchased it?
Brett Cole (01:36:38):
I had kept it for a week or two until Andrew asked for it.
Mr. Kinsler (01:36:43):
Where would you have kept it?
Brett Cole (01:36:47):
Probably a couple of days at my mom's house in town for maybe a day or two, and then I moved it to my grandpa's place outside of town.
Mr. Kinsler (01:36:56):
When you say your mom's place in town, where would that be?
Brett Cole (01:36:59):
In Hugo.
Mr. Kinsler (01:37:01):
Okay. Who all lived at that place in Hugo?
Brett Cole (01:37:04):
Me and my mom. I was in the process of moving out to my grandpa's place.
Mr. Kinsler (01:37:09):
When you say your grandpa, what's his name?
Brett Cole (01:37:11):
Jesse Babcock.
Mr. Kinsler (01:37:12):
And you say he lived out of town?
Brett Cole (01:37:14):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:37:15):
Out of Hugo or another town?
Brett Cole (01:37:16):
Yes, out of Hugo.
Mr. Kinsler (01:37:19):
Going back to your mom's place, did anybody else live there?
Brett Cole (01:37:22):
Dalton stayed with me sometimes, and Amy Chase stayed with me sometimes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:37:26):
Who was Amy Chase to you in 2021?
Brett Cole (01:37:29):
She was my girlfriend.
Mr. Kinsler (01:37:31):
How long did you date Amy?
Brett Cole (01:37:32):
Roughly a year.
Mr. Kinsler (01:37:35):
And that would've included September 2021?
Brett Cole (01:37:37):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:37:38):
And she stayed with you at your mom's house in Hugo during that timeframe?
Brett Cole (01:37:44):
Sometimes at my mom's house, sometimes at my grandpa's house outside of town.
Mr. Kinsler (01:37:47):
Your grandpa's house, which direction is that out of Hugo?
Brett Cole (01:37:55):
More east. East out of Hugo.
Mr. Kinsler (01:37:58):
Okay. Who all stayed out there?
Brett Cole (01:38:02):
Me and Dalton Ray, sometimes he would go home to his dad's and Amy Chase.
Mr. Kinsler (01:38:09):
Okay. And then also grandpa?
Brett Cole (01:38:10):
No.
Mr. Kinsler (01:38:10):
No?
Brett Cole (01:38:12):
No, he lived on the west side of town.
Mr. Kinsler (01:38:15):
Okay. What sort of property was it that he had east of town?
Brett Cole (01:38:20):
There was 40 acres out there. 20 of it was his, 20 of it was his brother who is deceased now.
Mr. Kinsler (01:38:30):
You and Amy and sometimes Dalton, what did you stay in? Was it house, a trailer, or what?
Brett Cole (01:38:34):
Trailer house.
Mr. Kinsler (01:38:42):
You mentioned you kept the motorcycle in those two places and eventually the defendant asked for it. Where did you take it?
Brett Cole (01:38:50):
To the camper property.
Mr. Kinsler (01:38:55):
And that's by Whitesboro?
Brett Cole (01:38:56):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:38:57):
Okay. Did anybody go with you?
Brett Cole (01:39:00):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:39:00):
Who?
Brett Cole (01:39:02):
Dalton Ray.
Mr. Kinsler (01:39:03):
At this juncture, when you guys are taking the bike up there, does Dalton have any clue what's going on?
Brett Cole (01:39:09):
Somewhat.
Mr. Kinsler (01:39:11):
And why do you say somewhat?
Brett Cole (01:39:12):
I mean, he knew what Andrew was supposed to go do. He didn't know all the details though.
Mr. Kinsler (01:39:21):
Then if he knows that, who would he have heard it from?
Brett Cole (01:39:25):
Me.
Speaker 5 (01:39:28):
I'm good. I'm sorry.
Mr. Kinsler (01:39:31):
When you travel up to the Whitesboro property, what do you do there?
Brett Cole (01:39:40):
We meet Andrew at the camper place.
Mr. Kinsler (01:39:42):
Okay. And you have the bike?
Brett Cole (01:39:45):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:39:45):
How do you guys bring the bike there?
Brett Cole (01:39:48):
Dalton Ray rode it from my grandpa's house to Talihina at the Dollar General, and then we swapped and he got in my truck and I got on the back and rode it from there to the camper place.
Mr. Kinsler (01:40:03):
And at the camper place, you hand off the bike?
Brett Cole (01:40:05):
Yeah, I meet up with Andrew and we talk for a while. He actually goes and test drives the bike down the road and wrecks it.
Mr. Kinsler (01:40:17):
Was there damage to him or damage to the bike?
Brett Cole (01:40:19):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:40:20):
Explain that to the jury.
Brett Cole (01:40:22):
He had a little bit of road rash. The handlebar was bent down. The bar is like a protective cage for the motor, it was bent back. The windshield was scratched up.
Mr. Kinsler (01:40:40):
Did you do anything to repair it?
Brett Cole (01:40:42):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:40:43):
What did you do?
Brett Cole (01:40:43):
I bent the handlebar back into place. We actually had to take the ratchet straps and run it up against a tree to pull the bar back. The bar, it protects the motor there, but we had to take the ratchet strap and pull it back.
Mr. Kinsler (01:41:02):
You mentioned road rash. Where did he have road rash?
Brett Cole (01:41:05):
I don't remember if it was on his arm or leg or maybe both.
Mr. Kinsler (01:41:09):
And what do you mean by road rash, I should ask?
Brett Cole (01:41:11):
Just where he landed over and slid across the gravel.
Mr. Kinsler (01:41:18):
After he test drives it and after you guys bend the bars, what do you do from there?
Brett Cole (01:41:32):
When he got back, we fixed everything up and then I sent Dalton Ray away on the four-wheeler because he was not supposed to know anything about it. Andrew didn't know that Dalton knew anything about it. So I sent Dalton Ray away on the four-wheeler and me and Andrew discussed him leaving.
Mr. Kinsler (01:41:56):
And what did you discuss at that time?
Brett Cole (01:41:59):
Just going over everything in the plan.
Mr. Kinsler (01:42:09):
Your understanding of the plan at that time, was it only to kill Tom?
Brett Cole (01:42:11):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:42:20):
And from there, did you return to Hugo?
Brett Cole (01:42:28):
I can't remember if we stayed the night or if we went back that day. We were supposed to stay up there for the weekend, but me and Dalton Ray got scared and we ended up going back to Hugo.
Mr. Kinsler (01:42:45):
When you say you were supposed to stay up there for the weekend, where do you mean?
Brett Cole (01:42:48):
At the camper.
Mr. Kinsler (01:42:49):
Okay. You were supposed to stay on that property?
Brett Cole (01:42:52):
Yes. Well, in that area, yeah.
Mr. Kinsler (01:42:56):
Okay. And that was the understanding that you came to with the defendant before he left?
Brett Cole (01:43:02):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:43:03):
But you didn't follow through on that part of the plan?
Brett Cole (01:43:06):
No.
Mr. Kinsler (01:43:06):
Okay. And that's because you were scared?
Brett Cole (01:43:09):
Yeah, we wanted to get back to Hugo, hopefully get on camera somewhere in town.
Mr. Kinsler (01:43:18):
And did you go back to Hugo, ultimately?
Brett Cole (01:43:20):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:43:22):
Where did you go?
Brett Cole (01:43:25):
I ended up going back to my grandpa's place outside of town.
Mr. Kinsler (01:43:28):
Okay. And do you see Amy Chase during that timeframe?
Brett Cole (01:43:34):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:43:37):
Do you recall, did Amy catch you with the other phone?
Brett Cole (01:43:40):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:43:41):
How did that happen?
Brett Cole (01:43:42):
I had my phone and Andrew's phone and texting Stacey back and forth for Andrew, and then Amy gets mad at me thinking I'm cheating on her for having two phones.
Mr. Kinsler (01:43:58):
And did you explain to her why you were doing it?
Brett Cole (01:44:01):
Eventually I did.
Mr. Kinsler (01:44:04):
Eventually, what did you tell her?
Brett Cole (01:44:06):
I told her that I was covering up for Andrew while he was away to commit murder.
Mr. Kinsler (01:44:30):
During the timeframe that the murders are taking place and you're in possession of the defendant's phone, did you make any calls on his phone?
Brett Cole (01:44:41):
No.
Mr. Kinsler (01:44:42):
Did you answer texts on that phone?
Brett Cole (01:44:44):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:44:45):
Whose text did you answer?
Brett Cole (01:44:46):
Stacey's.
Mr. Kinsler (01:44:47):
Did you answer anybody else's to your knowledge?
Brett Cole (01:44:49):
Not that I remember.
Mr. Kinsler (01:45:03):
I'd like to show the witness what's been marked as State's Exhibit 138BB [inaudible 01:45:10].
Speaker 7 (01:45:13):
No problem, Your Honor.
Judge (01:45:14):
All right, you may proceed.
Mr. Kinsler (01:45:16):
Well, first, was there a F&F Feed store near Hugo?
Brett Cole (01:45:20):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:45:21):
Did you ever go there?
Brett Cole (01:45:22):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:45:23):
What sort of... What is an F&F Feed store? What can I buy there?
Brett Cole (01:45:29):
Any kind of... Pretty much anything you need for a ranch or a farm, horse feed, dog feed, wormer, some medicines, penicillin.
Mr. Kinsler (01:45:41):
And I will display State's Exhibit 138BB. Do you recognize this?
Brett Cole (01:45:50):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:45:50):
What is this?
Brett Cole (01:45:51):
A receipt.
Mr. Kinsler (01:45:53):
And I think you're specifically looking at this... Well, let me display it for you. You're looking at this portion of the document?
Brett Cole (01:46:01):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:46:02):
Do you recognize that?
Brett Cole (01:46:03):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:46:03):
Do you recognize the signature?
Brett Cole (01:46:07):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:46:08):
Whose signature is that?
Brett Cole (01:46:09):
Mine.
Mr. Kinsler (01:46:10):
Okay. And this appears to be a purchase that took place on September 20th, 2021. Do you recognize those items here?
Brett Cole (01:46:21):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:46:22):
And what are they?
Brett Cole (01:46:25):
I'm not sure what the first one is, but the second one, the Furazone ointment, it's pretty much a cut and heel to salve. If your horse or dog gets cut, it helps the process of growing back.
Mr. Kinsler (01:46:42):
And that F&F Feed store, the address at the top says Grand, Oklahoma?
Brett Cole (01:46:46):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:46:47):
Where is that relative to Hugo?
Brett Cole (01:46:52):
Probably five to 10 miles south.
Mr. Kinsler (01:46:56):
Did you go there frequently or?
Brett Cole (01:46:58):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:46:58):
Okay. You purchased things other than this on this particular date?
Brett Cole (01:47:02):
Correct.
Mr. Kinsler (01:47:02):
Do you recall, was this your purchase?
Brett Cole (01:47:04):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:47:13):
Did you and Amy ever go to that store together?
Brett Cole (01:47:15):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:47:18):
Do you have any idea how many times?
Brett Cole (01:47:20):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:47:21):
As you stand here today, do you recall if she was with you on September 20th, 2021 when you went?
Brett Cole (01:47:25):
I don't recall. She may have been.
Mr. Kinsler (01:47:30):
Okay.
Brett Cole (01:47:31):
Most likely if she wasn't at work, she was with me.
Mr. Kinsler (01:47:34):
Where did she work at that time?
Brett Cole (01:47:35):
I think it was like a nursing home. She did laundry, cleaning there.
Mr. Kinsler (01:47:42):
Okay. Where was that nursing home located?
Brett Cole (01:47:45):
In Hugo.
Mr. Kinsler (01:48:03):
When you're up at the camper, you hand off the motorcycle. I think you've testified at some juncture are either that day or the next day you go back to Hugo, correct?
Brett Cole (01:48:11):
Correct.
Mr. Kinsler (01:48:12):
Did you see the defendant leave the property or was the defendant still at the property, the camper property when you left?
Brett Cole (01:48:19):
I seen him leave.
Mr. Kinsler (01:48:20):
Okay. Was it your understanding where he was going at that time? Did you understand where he was going at that time?
Brett Cole (01:48:26):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:48:27):
Where was he going?
Brett Cole (01:48:29):
To kill Tom.
Mr. Kinsler (01:48:32):
When's the next time you hear from him?
Brett Cole (01:48:37):
It would've been a couple days later when he was coming back.
Mr. Kinsler (01:48:43):
And let me ask you this. When you were at the camper before he departs, before you departs, did you guys have a discussion about ammunition?
Brett Cole (01:48:58):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:48:59):
What was that discussion?
Brett Cole (01:49:01):
He had left the box of ammo that he did not use. He left it with me and Dalton Ray to go and shoot the rest of the rounds off out of that box.
Mr. Kinsler (01:49:18):
And did you do that?
Brett Cole (01:49:19):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:49:20):
Where did you go to do that?
Brett Cole (01:49:21):
On his river place.
Mr. Kinsler (01:49:23):
Okay. So different from the camper property?
Brett Cole (01:49:25):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:49:26):
Okay. What'd you guys... Did you shoot targets or what did you do?
Brett Cole (01:49:30):
We were shooting turtles in the river.
Mr. Kinsler (01:49:32):
Okay. And who was with you?
Brett Cole (01:49:34):
Dalton Ray.
Mr. Kinsler (01:49:36):
Did Dalton Ray at that point have any idea why you guys would be doing that?
Brett Cole (01:49:41):
I may have told him. I can't remember.
Mr. Kinsler (01:49:44):
Do you recall, was there anything special about the ammunition? You said it was 22. Do you remember the manufacturer or anything like that?
Brett Cole (01:49:49):
It was CCI.
Mr. Kinsler (01:49:51):
What is CCI?
Brett Cole (01:49:51):
It's a brand.
Mr. Kinsler (01:50:05):
So after he departs, when did you hear from him again?
Brett Cole (01:50:10):
A couple days. I don't remember exactly. It was when he come back to Oklahoma.
Mr. Kinsler (01:50:16):
Did you see him or did you talk to him on the phone?
Brett Cole (01:50:18):
I talked to him first.
Mr. Kinsler (01:50:20):
And who called who?
Brett Cole (01:50:22):
He called me.
Mr. Kinsler (01:50:23):
Okay. Did you recognize the number?
Brett Cole (01:50:26):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:50:29):
And what did you discuss on the phone?
Brett Cole (01:50:33):
He said he would be back to meet him at the camper place in roughly two hours.
Mr. Kinsler (01:50:40):
And where were you at at that time?
Brett Cole (01:50:44):
My grandpa's place in Hugo.
Mr. Kinsler (01:50:45):
Okay. And how far are you away from Whitesboro at your grandfather's place?
Brett Cole (01:50:53):
Between an hour and hour and a half drive.
Mr. Kinsler (01:50:59):
Did he say anything else to you on the phone call?
Brett Cole (01:51:05):
Not that I remember.
Mr. Kinsler (01:51:14):
What did you do? Did you go to the camper place?
Brett Cole (01:51:19):
First, I called Dalton to see if he wanted to ride with me, and he did not. And then I drove to the camper place.
Mr. Kinsler (01:51:30):
Did anybody go with you to the camper place?
Brett Cole (01:51:33):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:51:33):
And what did you drive to get there?
Brett Cole (01:51:37):
My truck.
Mr. Kinsler (01:51:38):
What kind of truck are we talking about?
Brett Cole (01:51:41):
It was an '04 Chevy Duramax.
Mr. Kinsler (01:51:45):
And you go to the camper place. What do you find when you get to the camper place?
Brett Cole (01:51:49):
There was nobody there yet.
Mr. Kinsler (01:51:55):
Okay. Eventually, does the defendant show up?
Brett Cole (01:51:57):
Not while I was there.
Mr. Kinsler (01:51:59):
Okay. What happened?
Brett Cole (01:52:02):
I waited roughly an hour and a half to two hours. Like he said, it would take him to get there and he did not show up, so I kind of got nervous and scared, and his truck was parked farther up on his place. I put his phone and his truck keys in the little enclosed trailer he had there, and then I went back to Hugo.
Mr. Kinsler (01:52:29):
Did you do anything with his debit card at that time?
Brett Cole (01:52:33):
I may have went and put it in his truck. I don't remember exactly.
Mr. Kinsler (01:52:37):
Okay. You had his phone, his truck keys-
Brett Cole (01:52:41):
Debit card.
Mr. Kinsler (01:52:42):
... and his debit card at that point.
Brett Cole (01:52:43):
Mm.
Mr. Kinsler (01:52:43):
And you put those where?
Brett Cole (01:52:44):
I know I left the truck keys in the Lowe's enclosed trailer. I'm pretty sure I left his phone there beside the keys. I can't remember if I left them in the trailer or if I put them in his truck, and it's been a long time ago.
Mr. Kinsler (01:53:01):
Do you recall seeing a text on your phone at that time?
Brett Cole (01:53:06):
Before I left, right around the time I was leaving my grandpa's house in Hugo, there was a text popped up on the phone.
Mr. Kinsler (01:53:17):
And who was it from?
Brett Cole (01:53:19):
I don't remember who. I don't remember the name, but I remember it popping up and saying Tom and Angela had been murdered.
Mr. Kinsler (01:53:30):
Do you remember which phone that was on?
Brett Cole (01:53:33):
That was on Andrew's phone.
Mr. Kinsler (01:53:43):
So you left the keys, the phone, the debit card somewhere at the camper site. Where do you go?
Brett Cole (01:53:51):
I go back to Hugo.
Mr. Kinsler (01:53:52):
And which house do you go back to?
Brett Cole (01:53:58):
My grandpa's place outside of town.
Mr. Kinsler (01:54:01):
And is anybody there?
Brett Cole (01:54:06):
I think Amy was at work. I think it was just me.
Mr. Kinsler (01:54:12):
And at some juncture, do you hear again from the defendant that day?
Brett Cole (01:54:17):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:54:18):
When was that?
Brett Cole (01:54:20):
He brought the motorcycle back in the enclosed trailer to my grandpa's house in Hugo.
Mr. Kinsler (01:54:29):
And what was the plan to do? What was the plan for the motorcycle at that point?
Brett Cole (01:54:34):
Originally, he wanted to crush it with a dozer and bury it, and I wanted to keep it and try to sell it or put the motor on a four-wheeler frame or something. I do raise four-wheelers on the outside.
Mr. Kinsler (01:54:46):
And what ultimately came in the motorcycle?
Brett Cole (01:54:49):
I ended up keeping it for a little while and then traded it off for a truck.
Mr. Kinsler (01:54:58):
You spoke earlier about motorcycles and plates. Did that motorcycle have a plate?
Brett Cole (01:55:04):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:55:08):
Did you anticipate that being a problem?
Brett Cole (01:55:10):
Not really, no.
Mr. Kinsler (01:55:13):
Why not?
Brett Cole (01:55:14):
Because you can cover where the license plate goes with a bag or a backpack of some sort.
Mr. Kinsler (01:55:21):
Okay. In your experience, that doesn't cause a problem?
Brett Cole (01:55:24):
No, that's normal.
Mr. Kinsler (01:55:27):
And did you advise the defendant to do that?
Brett Cole (01:55:29):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:55:31):
So you indicated that the motorcycle winds up staying with you, is that fair?
Brett Cole (01:55:37):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:55:38):
And what do you ultimately do with the motorcycle?
Brett Cole (01:55:41):
Trade it for a truck.
Mr. Kinsler (01:55:43):
What kind of truck?
Brett Cole (01:55:43):
I think it was a '98 Z71.
Mr. Kinsler (01:55:50):
Did you keep anything from the motorcycle?
Brett Cole (01:55:53):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:55:54):
What did you keep?
Brett Cole (01:55:57):
I removed the windshield off of it, the cup holder. I think I took the phone holder off of it, the speakers. I took the speakers off of it, and there's a little bag that goes on the handlebar I kept that.
Mr. Kinsler (01:56:15):
What did you do with the speakers?
Brett Cole (01:56:19):
I put them in a drawer in my bedroom.
Mr. Kinsler (01:56:22):
Okay. What'd you do with the windshield?
Brett Cole (01:56:24):
It was in a junk pile, pretty much.
Mr. Kinsler (01:56:28):
Okay. At which place would this have been?
Brett Cole (01:56:30):
At my grandpa's place.
Mr. Kinsler (01:56:32):
And that's the same grandfather, Jesse, we're talking about-
Brett Cole (01:56:34):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:56:34):
... outside of Hugo. All of the stuff that you took off that bike, would it have been together?
Brett Cole (01:56:39):
It would've been on that property.
Mr. Kinsler (01:56:40):
Okay. And eventually, did you tell investigators about that?
Brett Cole (01:56:44):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:56:46):
Okay. What did you tell them?
Brett Cole (01:56:46):
I told them I had some stuff off the motorcycle that was used.
Mr. Kinsler (01:56:54):
Is there any particular reason why you kept that stuff?
Brett Cole (01:57:00):
I mean, I could have put the speakers on my side-by-side or something. It was just... I don't know.
Mr. Kinsler (01:57:08):
Your Honor, may I approach?
Judge (01:57:09):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:57:17):
Pulling up what's been marked as State's Exhibit 129. Do you recognize this?
Brett Cole (01:57:22):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:57:23):
What is this?
Brett Cole (01:57:24):
That is the windshield of the motorcycle.
Mr. Kinsler (01:57:28):
And you indicated that was kept at your grandfather Jesse's place by Hugo?
Brett Cole (01:57:32):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:57:40):
I think exhibit 124 is in bag. Do you recognize this?
Brett Cole (01:57:44):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:57:45):
What is this?
Brett Cole (01:57:47):
The speaker is off the motorcycle.
Mr. Kinsler (01:57:49):
Also stayed at Grandfather Jesse's place?
Brett Cole (01:57:51):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:57:53):
Did you also receive a helmet?
Brett Cole (01:57:55):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:57:56):
Whose helmet was it?
Brett Cole (01:57:58):
Andrew's.
Mr. Kinsler (01:58:01):
Were you present when it was purchased?
Brett Cole (01:58:03):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:58:03):
Okay. How did you come into possession of the helmet?
Brett Cole (01:58:10):
When he dropped the motorcycle off, he also let me keep the helmet.
Mr. Kinsler (01:58:16):
Is there any reason why he let you keep the helmet?
Brett Cole (01:58:19):
I mean, I race four-wheelers a lot, so I would've tried to use it, but it doesn't fit. So I would let other people that race with me that didn't have a helmet or forgot their helmet at the house, they would sometime use the helmet.
Mr. Kinsler (01:58:33):
And did you tell investigators about this helmet?
Brett Cole (01:58:36):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:58:37):
Where was it located?
Brett Cole (01:58:39):
In my closet.
Mr. Kinsler (01:58:41):
And which property would that have been on?
Brett Cole (01:58:43):
On my grandpa's.
Mr. Kinsler (01:58:45):
At the time you told investigators, this is when you're incarcerated, correct?
Brett Cole (01:58:48):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:58:49):
And I'm speaking specifically about the motorcycle, the windshield, the speakers, and the helmet. You were incarcerated when you informed investigators of that?
Brett Cole (01:58:59):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:59:01):
And were all those items located at the same location?
Brett Cole (01:59:05):
On the same property.
Mr. Kinsler (01:59:06):
On the same property. And that's your grandfather, Jesse's?
Brett Cole (01:59:10):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (01:59:10):
Do you remember who was living there at that time, if you know?
Brett Cole (01:59:15):
My mom.
Mr. Kinsler (01:59:21):
Did the defendant tell you anything when he got back about what happened?
Brett Cole (01:59:27):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (01:59:28):
What did he tell you?
Brett Cole (01:59:28):
He said he parked the motorcycle on a little pull-off on the side of the highway. He said there's some woods between there and the house. He said he sat in the woods and watched the house for a while. Then he said he went into the house and Tom and Angela were sitting down. I believe he said they were drinking, and he started asking where the money's at, and he said Tom said there ain't no money. Then he said he shot Tom. I believe the way I understood it was in his arm or shoulder. He said when he shot Tom, Angela had jumped up and ran towards him, and he then shot her multiple times.
Mr. Kinsler (02:00:33):
Did he specify how many times?
Brett Cole (02:00:37):
Two or three times is what I gathered.
Mr. Kinsler (02:00:39):
Did he say where he hit her?
Brett Cole (02:00:41):
Not that I remember.
Mr. Kinsler (02:00:42):
And what happens from there?
Brett Cole (02:00:50):
He said then after he shot Angela, he went back to asking Tom where the money's at, and Tom says there ain't no money. And then he shoots Tom and kills him. He said he then went to the house to make it look like a robbery, just throwing things around.
Mr. Kinsler (02:01:15):
Did he specify how many times he shot Tom?
Brett Cole (02:01:19):
I can't remember.
Mr. Kinsler (02:01:26):
Did he indicate that he... Did he take any property from the house?
Brett Cole (02:01:31):
He said he went through the house looking for stuff and didn't find anything in the house, but he said he found roughly $25,000 in $1 bills in an ammo box in the truck or a vehicle outside.
Mr. Kinsler (02:01:57):
Did he say anything to you about setting fire?
Brett Cole (02:02:00):
He did.
Mr. Kinsler (02:02:00):
What did he tell you about that?
Brett Cole (02:02:02):
I don't remember the details of the fire.
Mr. Kinsler (02:02:04):
Okay. You don't remember what he told you about the fire?
Brett Cole (02:02:06):
No, sir. As part of the plan was for him not to start the fire. That's one of the big things we talked about was not start the fire. And when he started talking about setting the fire, I was already mad at him for setting the fire, so I didn't even listen to it.
Mr. Kinsler (02:02:22):
Okay. So that wasn't part of the plan?
Brett Cole (02:02:24):
Definitely not.
Mr. Kinsler (02:02:25):
Did you guys specifically talk beforehand about not setting the house on fire?
Brett Cole (02:02:30):
Correct.
Mr. Kinsler (02:02:31):
And what did you tell the defendant about that?
Brett Cole (02:02:33):
For one, it would bring authorities to the house faster. The main thing is he likes to set everything on fire.
Mr. Kinsler (02:02:45):
So this is a problem you anticipated?
Brett Cole (02:02:47):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:03:03):
Did you and the defendant talk about what became of the clothes he was wearing during the murders?
Brett Cole (02:03:10):
He had told me... I don't remember the exact details, but he stopped on the way back beside a lake or some kind of waterway. He pulled over there and he told me he burnt the clothes.
Mr. Kinsler (02:03:24):
Did you and he discuss what became of the gun?
Brett Cole (02:03:28):
I seen the gun afterwards.
Mr. Kinsler (02:03:31):
When did you see the gun?
Brett Cole (02:03:33):
When he delivered the motorcycle back to me.
Mr. Kinsler (02:03:35):
Okay. He still had the gun with him?
Brett Cole (02:03:38):
It was already ground down mostly. The only thing left was the grips and the back strap.
Mr. Kinsler (02:03:45):
Had you seen the gun before the murders?
Brett Cole (02:03:47):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:03:47):
What did it look like?
Brett Cole (02:03:49):
It was a pearl handled, High Standard revolver, a .22.
Mr. Kinsler (02:03:55):
Did he discuss how he entered the home?
Brett Cole (02:04:00):
To my understanding, he went through the back door.
Mr. Kinsler (02:04:03):
Okay.
Brett Cole (02:04:03):
I don't remember exactly details.
Mr. Kinsler (02:04:06):
Okay. Did he ever say anything about having to break a lock or break a window to do so?
Brett Cole (02:04:09):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:04:17):
Did he say what became of the phone he used to call you?
Brett Cole (02:04:21):
He told me he crushed the phone.
Mr. Kinsler (02:04:29):
Did you guys discuss, did you and the defendant discuss tying up or torturing the victims?
Brett Cole (02:04:34):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:04:37):
Okay. No, you didn't discuss it?
Brett Cole (02:04:38):
No, we did not.
Mr. Kinsler (02:04:49):
Do you have an idea how big or how many rounds the firearm was?
Brett Cole (02:04:54):
It was at least nine. I want to say it was 11. There was something odd about that gun that was different than mine. I own a High Standard .22 revolver. It is a nine-shot, but I want to say there was something different about it. I want to say it was 11 or something, but I can't remember exactly.
Mr. Kinsler (02:05:14):
You mentioned that the firearm was ground down. Explain that to the jury. What do you mean by that?
Brett Cole (02:05:19):
He took a grinder from the barrel all the way to the back strap on the grips.
Mr. Kinsler (02:05:25):
Why keep the grips?
Brett Cole (02:05:26):
I don't know.
Mr. Kinsler (02:05:30):
And you described the grips. What were they?
Brett Cole (02:05:31):
They were pearl handles.
Mr. Kinsler (02:05:33):
Okay. Does that have any value?
Brett Cole (02:05:35):
No, sir. It's just a preference of color, I imagine.
Mr. Kinsler (02:05:52):
The helmet, did you get it that day?
Brett Cole (02:05:58):
It was when he brought the motorcycle back.
Mr. Kinsler (02:06:00):
On the day he brought the motorcycle to you, you took possession of the motorcycle?
Brett Cole (02:06:04):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (02:06:05):
And you also took possession of the helmet?
Brett Cole (02:06:06):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (02:06:07):
Did you ever use the helmet after that?
Brett Cole (02:06:09):
I tried it on, but it was too tight.
Mr. Kinsler (02:06:11):
Did anybody else use that helmet after that?
Brett Cole (02:06:13):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (02:06:14):
Do you remember who?
Brett Cole (02:06:16):
I don't remember the names. It's just random people at the racetrack.
Mr. Kinsler (02:06:20):
When you say racetrack, what did you race?
Brett Cole (02:06:22):
Four-wheelers.
Mr. Kinsler (02:06:23):
Did you do that frequently?
Brett Cole (02:06:24):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:06:25):
Where did you go to race?
Brett Cole (02:06:29):
Atoka. There's a sand drag strip at Atoka, Oklahoma. I've been to Sand Wars at Little Sahara. I've been to Louisiana, all over.
Mr. Kinsler (02:06:40):
May I approach, Your Honor?
Judge (02:06:41):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (02:07:03):
The box marked State's Exhibit 123. Do you recognize this item from inside the exhibit?
Brett Cole (02:07:09):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:07:11):
What is this?
Brett Cole (02:07:11):
A helmet.
Mr. Kinsler (02:07:13):
Is this the same helmet we've been discussing?
Brett Cole (02:07:15):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:07:16):
Is there anything unique or exceptional about it that stands out to you?
Brett Cole (02:07:19):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:07:19):
Okay. That's the helmet you were given that day?
Brett Cole (02:07:23):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:07:24):
Okay. And you helped authorities locate this helmet?
Brett Cole (02:07:27):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:07:28):
And it would've been at your grandfather, Jesse's?
Brett Cole (02:07:30):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:07:44):
You had a phone during this timeframe, correct? You had a cell phone of your own back during this timeframe?
Brett Cole (02:07:50):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:07:51):
Do you know what became of that phone?
Brett Cole (02:07:55):
No.
Mr. Kinsler (02:07:55):
When you got incarcerated, do you know who had it?
Brett Cole (02:07:59):
I left it with Amy Chase and then Andrew ended up on my phone.
Mr. Kinsler (02:08:03):
Okay. Your Honor, may I have the assistance of Detective Jordan? We're going to look at that phone. Can he also approach the witness?
Judge (02:08:12):
Yes.
Speaker 7 (02:08:30):
Yes.
(02:08:30)
[inaudible 02:08:33].
Mr. Kinsler (02:08:54):
State's Exhibit 111, do you recognize that item?
Brett Cole (02:09:01):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:09:02):
What are we looking at there?
Brett Cole (02:09:04):
My phone.
Mr. Kinsler (02:09:06):
How do you recognize it as your phone?
Brett Cole (02:09:09):
Well, it's got my horse on the front of it.
Mr. Kinsler (02:09:11):
Okay. You owned horses at that time?
Brett Cole (02:09:15):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:09:16):
Where were they located?
Brett Cole (02:09:17):
At my grandpa's place.
Mr. Kinsler (02:09:19):
Okay. What I'm going to do is ask Detective Blumling to assist us in accessing the contacts in your phone. We've talked about witness or we've talked about Amy Chase. That was your girlfriend at the time?
Brett Cole (02:09:38):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:09:38):
Would her contact information be in this phone?
Brett Cole (02:09:40):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:09:41):
Do you know what contact she would've been?
Brett Cole (02:09:43):
I think it just says Amy or Amy Chase.
Mr. Kinsler (02:09:48):
Can you locate that?
Speaker 6 (02:09:48):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:09:50):
And would you show it to him, please?
Brett Cole (02:09:56):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:09:58):
May I see it?
Speaker 6 (02:09:59):
Yep.
Mr. Kinsler (02:10:03):
So you just looked at a contact marked Amy, A-I-M-Y in your State's Exhibit 111, your phone. The mobile number attached is 580-372... Oops. Cancel that, please. Sorry. It's okay. 580-372-4885, would that have been Amy Chase's number at that time?
Brett Cole (02:10:24):
I can't recall her exact number.
Mr. Kinsler (02:10:28):
Okay. Would you have been the one to input the contact information in the phone?
Brett Cole (02:10:31):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:10:32):
Okay. Would you have put the correct number for Amy?
Brett Cole (02:10:35):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (02:10:36):
Was there more than one contact for Amy?
Brett Cole (02:10:38):
I don't know.
Mr. Kinsler (02:10:47):
And would Andrew Griffin's contact information have been in the phone?
Brett Cole (02:10:50):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:10:52):
How would you have had that scheduled?
Brett Cole (02:10:54):
Either Andrew or Andrew Griffin. I don't remember.
Mr. Kinsler (02:11:00):
And what is the contact information? What's the name?
Brett Cole (02:11:05):
Andrew Griffin.
Mr. Kinsler (02:11:07):
Okay. What number is associated with that?
Brett Cole (02:11:08):
918-318-0229.
Mr. Kinsler (02:11:15):
Same question. Would you have been the one to enter that contact information there?
Brett Cole (02:11:18):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:11:18):
Would that have been accurate at the time as you understood it?
Brett Cole (02:11:21):
Correct.
Mr. Kinsler (02:11:23):
And then Dalton Ray, would you have had his contact information?
Brett Cole (02:11:26):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:11:27):
How would you have kept that in your phone?
Brett Cole (02:11:30):
Either Dalton or Dalton Ray.
(02:11:48)
Yes, sir. Dalton.
Mr. Kinsler (02:11:51):
What's the name?
Brett Cole (02:11:52):
Dalton.
Mr. Kinsler (02:11:52):
And what's the number?
Brett Cole (02:11:56):
580-236-8062.
Mr. Kinsler (02:12:02):
Would your mom have been in your phone?
Brett Cole (02:12:04):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (02:12:05):
What's your mom's name?
Brett Cole (02:12:07):
In my phone?
Mr. Kinsler (02:12:09):
Well, what's her name?
Brett Cole (02:12:10):
Her name is Carolyn Babcock.
Mr. Kinsler (02:12:12):
How would she have been in your phone?
Brett Cole (02:12:13):
Mom.
Mr. Kinsler (02:12:14):
All right. Is there a contact for mom?
Brett Cole (02:12:17):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:12:18):
And what number is that?
Brett Cole (02:12:19):
580-317-3802.
Mr. Kinsler (02:12:27):
What about Stacey Griffin? Would you have had her contact information in your phone?
Brett Cole (02:12:33):
Yes, sir. I think I did.
Mr. Kinsler (02:12:34):
Do you recall how you would've kept that? What would she have been named in your phone?
Brett Cole (02:12:38):
I don't know, because I think there was two Staceys. I can't remember though.
Mr. Kinsler (02:12:46):
I believe her name is spelled S-T-A-C-E-E. Is that how you recall it being?
Brett Cole (02:12:52):
I don't remember.
Mr. Kinsler (02:12:59):
Do you remember her maiden name?
Brett Cole (02:13:11):
I should. I can't remember.
Mr. Kinsler (02:13:11):
[inaudible 02:13:12].
(02:13:11)
I'm going to show you this contact.
Speaker 6 (02:13:27):
Yes, sir.
Brett Cole (02:13:27):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:13:28):
Do you recognize that?
Brett Cole (02:13:29):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (02:13:30):
Is that Stacey's contact information?
Brett Cole (02:13:32):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:13:33):
And what is the number associated with that?
Brett Cole (02:13:36):
580-317-3904.
Mr. Kinsler (02:13:46):
What's your brother's name?
Brett Cole (02:13:49):
Which one?
Mr. Kinsler (02:13:51):
Do you have a brother named Colton?
Brett Cole (02:13:52):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:13:53):
Would he also be in the phone?
Brett Cole (02:13:55):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:13:56):
What's Colton's last name?
Brett Cole (02:13:57):
Carr.
Mr. Kinsler (02:13:57):
You can show that to him.
Speaker 6 (02:14:17):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:14:19):
Do you recognize that contact?
Brett Cole (02:14:21):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:14:22):
What's the name associated with it?
Brett Cole (02:14:24):
Colton Carr.
Mr. Kinsler (02:14:25):
And what's the number?
Brett Cole (02:14:26):
580-317-5398.
Mr. Kinsler (02:14:33):
You've spoken about staying at the property of Jesse Babcock, is that right?
Brett Cole (02:14:37):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:14:38):
Is that your grandfather?
Brett Cole (02:14:40):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (02:14:41):
And would his contact information be in your phone?
Brett Cole (02:14:43):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (02:14:44):
Would it be under Jesse Babcock or grandpa or how would it have been in your phone?
Brett Cole (02:14:50):
I don't remember how it is in there.
Mr. Kinsler (02:14:52):
You have it? Can you show it to him, please?
Brett Cole (02:14:59):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (02:15:00):
What's the name associated with that contact?
Brett Cole (02:15:02):
Jesse Babcock.
Mr. Kinsler (02:15:04):
And what's the number?
Brett Cole (02:15:05):
580-317-7872.
Mr. Kinsler (02:15:33):
What about Judy Cole?
Brett Cole (02:15:36):
That's my grandma.
Mr. Kinsler (02:15:38):
Okay. Would her number be in the phone?
Brett Cole (02:15:39):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (02:15:44):
And how would she have been in there?
Brett Cole (02:15:44):
Either Granny or Judy. I don't remember.
Mr. Kinsler (02:15:47):
Show him.
Speaker 6 (02:15:48):
Yes, sir.
Brett Cole (02:15:50):
Judy Cole.
Mr. Kinsler (02:15:51):
And what number is her name associated with?
Brett Cole (02:15:55):
405-402-7636.
Mr. Kinsler (02:16:11):
Did you have a Papa Babcock as a contact to your phone?
Brett Cole (02:16:18):
Possibly, yeah.
Mr. Kinsler (02:16:19):
Who would that be?
Brett Cole (02:16:20):
That would be Jesse Babcock.
Mr. Kinsler (02:16:22):
Okay. Would he have had more than one phone?
Brett Cole (02:16:25):
No, not unless he changed it. Maybe he got a new number. I have an uncle Jesse also, so I don't know.
Mr. Kinsler (02:16:34):
You recognize that?
Brett Cole (02:16:35):
Yeah.
Mr. Kinsler (02:16:35):
The contact's name is what?
Brett Cole (02:16:40):
And the contact is Papa Babcock.
Mr. Kinsler (02:16:42):
Who would you have called Papa Babcock?
Brett Cole (02:16:44):
Jesse Babcock.
Mr. Kinsler (02:16:46):
And who is that? That's the grandfather you referred to?
Brett Cole (02:16:48):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:16:48):
And what number is associated with that?
Brett Cole (02:16:48):
580-317-3382.
Mr. Kinsler (02:16:59):
Did you know Michael Young?
Brett Cole (02:17:01):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:17:02):
Who was he?
Brett Cole (02:17:04):
A friend.
Mr. Kinsler (02:17:06):
And how would you have kept Michael in your phone?
Brett Cole (02:17:09):
I believe it was under Michael Young.
Mr. Kinsler (02:17:12):
Can you show him.
Speaker 6 (02:17:13):
Yes, sir.
Brett Cole (02:17:15):
Michael Young.
Mr. Kinsler (02:17:17):
And what number is associated with Michael Young?
Brett Cole (02:17:18):
580-212-
Mr. Kinsler (02:17:38):
[inaudible 02:17:24].
(02:17:38)
During the timeframe... Thank you, Jordan. I'm sorry. During the timeframe where you were holding the defendant's phone, you also had your own phone, correct?
Brett Cole (02:17:45):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:17:46):
Did you use your phone as you regularly would?
Brett Cole (02:17:48):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (02:17:49):
Okay. Did you send and receive calls during that time?
Brett Cole (02:17:52):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:17:53):
Okay. Did you send or receive texts during that time?
Brett Cole (02:17:55):
I'm sure I did.
Mr. Kinsler (02:17:59):
I'm going to show him what's been marked as State's Exhibit... I'm going to show him what's been marked as State's Exhibit 168 [inaudible 02:18:05].
Speaker 7 (02:18:13):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge (02:18:14):
All right. You may proceed.
Mr. Kinsler (02:18:18):
Yeah, you want to say it. State's Exhibit 168. Do you recognize this document?
Brett Cole (02:18:27):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:18:29):
And it says Belmont County Jail Conveyance Questionnaire. Did you have to fill this out?
Brett Cole (02:18:34):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (02:18:35):
And I guess when I say fill it out, did you actually have to sign it?
Brett Cole (02:18:38):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:18:39):
And is that your signature in the bottom left?
Brett Cole (02:18:42):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:18:42):
I want to show you page six of the document and direct your attention here. Do you recognize where it says signature of inmate?
Brett Cole (02:19:02):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:19:03):
Is that your signature?
Brett Cole (02:19:05):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:19:06):
Is there an initial right here?
Brett Cole (02:19:11):
I do not know what that's for.
Mr. Kinsler (02:19:14):
Okay. But the rest of this, do you recognize, is that your signature?
Brett Cole (02:19:16):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (02:19:17):
How do you normally sign your name?
Brett Cole (02:19:19):
Like that. I don't know what that first part is. It looks like an initial there. I did not write that.
Mr. Kinsler (02:19:46):
I want to show what's been marked as State's Exhibit 158. This is an immunity letter we've discussed.
Speaker 7 (02:19:54):
No objection.
Judge (02:19:54):
All right, you may proceed.
Mr. Kinsler (02:20:00):
Do you recognize State's Exhibit 158?
Brett Cole (02:20:24):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:20:25):
If I scroll down to the bottom, 158 is four pages. If I scroll down to the bottom, do you recognize your signature there?
Brett Cole (02:20:38):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:20:39):
Did you sign it on December 19th of '24?
Brett Cole (02:20:39):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:20:40):
Okay. Having seen your signature, do you recognize what we're looking at?
Brett Cole (02:20:52):
My signature? What do you mean?
Mr. Kinsler (02:20:54):
Do you recognize this document?
Brett Cole (02:20:56):
Oh, yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:20:57):
What is it?
Brett Cole (02:20:59):
The immunity agreement.
Mr. Kinsler (02:21:14):
Okay. You mentioned you talked to the defendant about the plan and the murders. Who else did you talk to?
Brett Cole (02:21:24):
Before or after?
Mr. Kinsler (02:21:26):
I guess either. Who would you have ever told about the murders? Would you have told Amy Chase?
Brett Cole (02:21:31):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:21:32):
Okay. Would you have told Dalton Ray?
Brett Cole (02:21:34):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (02:21:34):
Do you recall when you told Amy Chase? When would you have actually mentioned the murder?
Brett Cole (02:21:40):
I don't remember the date or the time.
Mr. Kinsler (02:21:44):
Was it while the defendant was gone to West Virginia?
Brett Cole (02:21:48):
I think it was when I had his phone and she was questioning me about cheating on her for having two phones.
Mr. Kinsler (02:21:56):
Same question for Dalton Ray. When would you have told him that the motorcycle and everything that was being done was for a homicide?
Brett Cole (02:22:06):
Within a couple days of... I don't remember exactly when I told him the details. Within a couple days of delivering a bike.
Mr. Kinsler (02:22:19):
Okay. And did you ever discuss it with Colton Carr?
Brett Cole (02:22:28):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:22:30):
Do you recall when that took place?
Brett Cole (02:22:32):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:22:33):
Would it have been before or after the homicides?
Brett Cole (02:22:36):
After.
Mr. Kinsler (02:22:36):
Do you have any idea how long after?
Brett Cole (02:22:40):
Not really.
Mr. Kinsler (02:22:42):
Do you remember what you told Colton?
Brett Cole (02:22:46):
I don't know the details I told him. He was probably drinking at the time.
Mr. Kinsler (02:22:55):
Going back to the motorcycle purchase, did the buyer act strange?
Brett Cole (02:23:03):
He acted like law enforcement.
Mr. Kinsler (02:23:05):
What do you mean by he acted like law enforcement?
Brett Cole (02:23:07):
He just had that vibe.
Mr. Kinsler (02:23:11):
Do you recall him taking pictures of you?
Brett Cole (02:23:13):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:23:16):
And do you recall... Is that part of the vibe you're describing?
Brett Cole (02:23:20):
Yeah, it was strange of him taking a picture of me leaving his house.
Mr. Kinsler (02:23:25):
Let's show the witness what's been marked as 146A.
Mr. Shamansky (02:23:28):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge (02:23:29):
Thank you.
Mr. Kinsler (02:23:40):
Do you recognize what's depicted in this photo?
Brett Cole (02:23:46):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:23:48):
Is that the motorcycle we've been discussing?
Brett Cole (02:23:51):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:23:52):
Do you recognize that trailer?
Brett Cole (02:23:54):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:23:55):
And who is that in the gray shirt?
Brett Cole (02:23:57):
It looks like Dalton Ray.
Mr. Kinsler (02:24:01):
Are you depicted anywhere in this photo?
Brett Cole (02:24:04):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:24:04):
I'm going to show the witness 146B, Your Honor.
Judge (02:24:17):
Mr. Shamansky, any issues?
Mr. Shamansky (02:24:18):
No objection, Your Honor.
Mr. Kinsler (02:24:36):
Do you recognize State's Exhibit 146B?
Brett Cole (02:24:40):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:24:41):
What are we looking at?
Brett Cole (02:24:45):
Me driving my truck, pulling the trailer with the motorcycle on it.
Mr. Kinsler (02:24:50):
Where would this have been?
Brett Cole (02:24:51):
I believe that's when I was leaving the man's driveway from purchasing the motorcycle.
Mr. Kinsler (02:24:59):
And you indicated he was acting like law enforcement. Did he do anything other than take pictures of you?
Brett Cole (02:25:06):
He had us fill out pretty much a receipt or title transfer, which most people don't bother with that.
Mr. Kinsler (02:25:14):
And I think we spoke about that before, but where did the information that went into that document come from?
Brett Cole (02:25:23):
From Andrew.
Mr. Kinsler (02:25:24):
I'd like to show the witness 146C, Your Honor.
Mr. Shamansky (02:25:41):
No objection.
Mr. Kinsler (02:25:53):
So we're looking at 146C and I'm going to zoom in. States at the top this is a Texas motor vehicle transfer notification. Does that sound right to you?
Brett Cole (02:26:05):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:26:06):
You've purchased vehicles before, before this transaction?
Brett Cole (02:26:10):
Correct.
Mr. Kinsler (02:26:11):
Is it your experience that people don't complete the title paperwork when you do so?
Brett Cole (02:26:15):
Most of the time not.
Mr. Kinsler (02:26:19):
Okay. And then specifically on this one, if you look at my copy up here on the wall, there's box marked new owner information. It says James Fisher, 3640 Second Street, Flowood, Mississippi. Where did that information come from?
Brett Cole (02:26:46):
From Andrew.
Mr. Kinsler (02:26:47):
Okay. You guys talked on the phone?
Brett Cole (02:26:49):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:26:52):
Okay. And that phone number, 318-0228, where did that number come from?
Brett Cole (02:26:59):
From Andrew.
Mr. Kinsler (02:27:01):
He told you to use that number?
Brett Cole (02:27:02):
I believe so.
Mr. Kinsler (02:27:15):
You mentioned that this interaction bothered you, the way the seller was behaving?
Brett Cole (02:27:22):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:27:22):
Did you take any action based on that?
Brett Cole (02:27:26):
I did. I told Andrew we should put all this stuff off for a while until I could find a different motorcycle.
Mr. Kinsler (02:27:33):
You communicated that to the defendant?
Brett Cole (02:27:35):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (02:27:36):
Okay. And what did you guys discuss after that?
Brett Cole (02:27:40):
He said he had to go, and then he did not have time to wait for a new motorcycle.
Mr. Kinsler (02:27:47):
Did he tell you why it was so urgent?
Brett Cole (02:27:50):
He said that Tom was planning to leave the state and go to Florida.
Mr. Kinsler (02:28:04):
No further questions of this witness, Your Honor. Thank you.
Judge (02:28:06):
Mr. Shamansky, do you wish to undertake any cross-examination?
Mr. Shamansky (02:28:16):
I do. Can we approach, sir?
Judge (02:28:17):
Yes. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we're going to recess for lunch right now. I have 12:15, so let's take an hour for lunch. Lunch should be in the jury room. And again, you're free to stretch your legs. I think the sun is out most certain, but be back here about 1:10 to start at 1:15. So with that said, always remember my instructions. And Mr. Garns will escort you to the jury room. We're outside the presence of the jury. Mr. Vavra, is an hour sufficient break for lunch for the state?
Mr. Vavra (02:28:53):
Yes, Your Honor.
Judge (02:28:54):
Mr. Shamansky, same question?
Mr. Shamansky (02:28:55):
Good, sir. Yes. Thank you.
Judge (02:28:57):
All right. And any issues the state needs to address?
Mr. Vavra (02:28:59):
No, Judge.
Judge (02:29:00):
Mr. Shamansky?
Mr. Shamansky (02:29:01):
No, we're good, Your Honor. Thank you.
Judge (02:29:02):
All right. So the court will be in recess.
(02:29:02)
Please be seated. We are back on the record in the State of Ohio v. Andrew Griffin. Mr. Griffin is present in the courtroom with his counsel. The state is present. The jury is in the courtroom. We are resuming after a break for lunch. And gentlemen of the jury, any issues at all during that break with following my orders? No one has raised their hand. Mr. Cole, I'm going to remind you, you're still under oath.
Brett Cole (02:29:41):
Yes, sir.
Judge (02:29:43):
Mr. Shamansky, do you wish to undertake cross-examination?
Mr. Shamansky (02:29:46):
I do, sir. May I?
Judge (02:29:47):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:29:48):
Thank you. Mr. Cole, good afternoon.
Brett Cole (02:29:51):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:29:52):
You hear me okay?
Brett Cole (02:29:52):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:29:53):
I need you to keep your voice up so I can hear you, all right?
Brett Cole (02:29:56):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:29:57):
Now, let's go into a little bit more about your background. You okay with that?
Brett Cole (02:30:03):
I guess. Sure.
Mr. Shamansky (02:30:05):
Good. You first met Andrew Griffin, you guys were youngsters, right?
Brett Cole (02:30:12):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:30:13):
First grade, third grade, fourth grade, something like that, right?
Brett Cole (02:30:17):
Yeah.
Mr. Shamansky (02:30:18):
And y'all were from the same area and did a lot of the same things, right? A lot of outdoor things?
Brett Cole (02:30:25):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:30:26):
And even from a young age, you prided yourself on the outdoor lifestyle, right?
Brett Cole (02:30:33):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:30:34):
Hunting, right? Fishing, right?
Brett Cole (02:30:38):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:30:39):
Breaking horses, helping your grandpa, right?
Brett Cole (02:30:42):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:30:43):
And you did many of those things with your buddy, Brett, right?
Brett Cole (02:30:48):
I am Brett.
Mr. Shamansky (02:30:49):
I'm sorry, with your buddy, Andrew. I know you're Brett. Forgive me. And you were about three years older, right?
Brett Cole (02:30:55):
Roughly.
Mr. Shamansky (02:30:56):
Okay. And so that friendship continued for quite a while, right?
Brett Cole (02:31:01):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:31:02):
And all during your young years, you're a kid that's outside enjoying himself, right? Enjoying the area in which you lived, right?
Brett Cole (02:31:11):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:31:12):
You kept up that lifestyle, correct?
Brett Cole (02:31:15):
Yeah.
Mr. Shamansky (02:31:15):
All the way up until your first incarceration, right? And you were always an outdoor kind of guy.
Brett Cole (02:31:21):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:31:22):
And then at some point, didn't you even date Andrew's sister? Remember that?
Brett Cole (02:31:32):
When we were young?
Mr. Shamansky (02:31:33):
Yeah.
Brett Cole (02:31:34):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:31:34):
I mean, we're talking about a close-knit relationship here, correct?
Brett Cole (02:31:37):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:31:38):
And at some point, around 2019-ish, you get arrested in state court, right?
Brett Cole (02:31:49):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:31:50):
And you get locked up, correct?
Brett Cole (02:31:53):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:31:54):
For a minute, right?
Brett Cole (02:31:56):
Roughly 10 and a half months.
Mr. Shamansky (02:31:58):
Right. And then that case is ultimately dismissed, right?
Brett Cole (02:32:02):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:32:03):
Now, I wasn't real clear, but Andrew was helping you with your lawyer on the state case, right?
Brett Cole (02:32:12):
Other people hired my state lawyers and Andrew helped me pay those people back.
Mr. Shamansky (02:32:18):
Right. So he was helping you with your legal fees, right?
Brett Cole (02:32:23):
Technically.
Mr. Shamansky (02:32:25):
Okay. And so technically speaking, after about 10 and a half months, these charges were ultimately picked up by the feds, right?
Brett Cole (02:32:34):
Can you repeat the question?
Mr. Shamansky (02:32:35):
Yes, sir. You just told the jury you were in jail for about 10 months on these state rape charges, right?
Brett Cole (02:32:44):
Sexual assault charges.
Mr. Shamansky (02:32:47):
Okay. Sexual assault charges.
Brett Cole (02:32:49):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:32:50):
And those charges were dismissed by the state at some point, correct or incorrect?
Brett Cole (02:32:55):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:32:56):
All right. And then were you released from custody?
Brett Cole (02:32:59):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:33:00):
All right. And how long were you out before you got arrested again by the feds?
Brett Cole (02:33:04):
[inaudible 02:33:09].
Mr. Shamansky (02:33:08):
Okay. And it was during that two-year time period from say '20 to '22 or so, right?
Brett Cole (02:33:18):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:33:19):
You're out and about, right?
Brett Cole (02:33:21):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:33:22):
Now, you've already had almost a year of your life taken from you locked up, right?
Brett Cole (02:33:28):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:33:28):
And that was an exceedingly unpleasant experience, right?
Brett Cole (02:33:31):
Correct.
Mr. Shamansky (02:33:32):
And that was the first time you've been in jail for an extended period, right?
Brett Cole (02:33:36):
Correct.
Mr. Shamansky (02:33:37):
And while you were in there, you got to thinking about how important your freedom was, right?
Brett Cole (02:33:44):
Oh, yeah.
Mr. Shamansky (02:33:45):
And tell the jury, because we didn't get into this much, but you're kind of a family man, right?
Brett Cole (02:33:51):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:33:52):
And let them know how many kids you have, please.
Brett Cole (02:33:56):
I have two.
Mr. Shamansky (02:33:57):
Two daughters, right?
Brett Cole (02:33:58):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:34:00):
And tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury their ages.
Brett Cole (02:34:05):
One of them, the oldest daughter's roughly 16 to 17. I haven't had contact with them since 2019.
Mr. Shamansky (02:34:12):
Well, let's work backwards. Your eldest daughter, birthday, please.
Brett Cole (02:34:17):
Birthdate?
Mr. Shamansky (02:34:18):
Yes.
Brett Cole (02:34:19):
September either 24th or 27th of '09.
Mr. Shamansky (02:34:27):
And what about your other daughter?
Brett Cole (02:34:29):
March 26th, but I do not remember the year.
Mr. Shamansky (02:34:32):
Okay. And so as a result of the allegations in the 2019 case, you have, you call it lost contact with him, right?
Brett Cole (02:34:42):
Correct.
Mr. Shamansky (02:34:42):
Okay. And so ultimately you were indicted in federal court, right?
Brett Cole (02:34:52):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:34:55):
And you need a lawyer for that case, correct?
Brett Cole (02:34:57):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:34:58):
And who helped you obtain that lawyer?
Brett Cole (02:35:01):
Andrew.
Mr. Shamansky (02:35:02):
Okay. And in fact, I know you've indicated, you actually had two trials in that case, right?
Brett Cole (02:35:10):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:35:11):
Your first trial ended up in a hung jury, didn't it?
Brett Cole (02:35:14):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:35:19):
And the lawyer that you hired initially, you were out of money, of course, right?
Brett Cole (02:35:25):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:35:25):
And then for your retrial, you had to get a different lawyer, right?
Brett Cole (02:35:29):
No, I was needing one, but I ended up using the same lawyer.
Mr. Shamansky (02:35:34):
Okay. So you had the same guy, same gentleman try your second case?
Brett Cole (02:35:38):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:35:39):
All right. And no secret, you got convicted of all three counts in that case, right?
Brett Cole (02:35:45):
Correct.
Mr. Shamansky (02:35:46):
And you were then sentenced to a lifetime of incarceration, right?
Brett Cole (02:35:51):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:35:52):
Now, at the time, you understood, of course, that in the federal system, life means life, right?
Brett Cole (02:36:05):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:36:05):
So you're what, 34 years old?
Brett Cole (02:36:09):
I'm 36.
Mr. Shamansky (02:36:11):
Now you are, right?
Brett Cole (02:36:12):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:36:13):
Your conviction was in early '25, right?
Brett Cole (02:36:20):
When was that? '23? I lost trial in '23, and I believe I was sentenced in '24.
Mr. Shamansky (02:36:33):
Okay. That's when you caught the lifetime sentence, right?
Brett Cole (02:36:38):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:36:40):
And if we start to think about coming to the events surrounding this case, at some point you're in a federal penal setting, right?
Brett Cole (02:36:54):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:36:56):
And you've been confined before. We already discussed that, correct?
Brett Cole (02:37:01):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:37:02):
It's fair to say that your confinement this time around is a much different mental state for you, correct?
Brett Cole (02:37:10):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:37:12):
You realize that then, as you realize now, that there's no parole in the federal system, right?
Brett Cole (02:37:20):
Correct.
Mr. Shamansky (02:37:21):
And of course, you lost your appeal, right?
Brett Cole (02:37:23):
The direct appeal was denied.
Mr. Shamansky (02:37:26):
Denied. And there have been no further appellate proceedings to your knowledge, correct?
Brett Cole (02:37:37):
I have a 2255 as my last step.
Mr. Shamansky (02:37:41):
Right, but we're talking about appellate proceedings, okay?
Brett Cole (02:37:44):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:37:45):
And we'll talk about your 2255 hopes in a minute, but you understand now, just as you've understood in speaking with your lawyers, that when you lose in federal district trial court, you get to go to the court of appeals, right?
Brett Cole (02:38:01):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:38:02):
And that's precisely what you did, the 10th Circuit, right?
Brett Cole (02:38:06):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:38:07):
And you recall the day that you got the notice, December 25th or so, right around Christmas of 2025, your appeal was denied, right?
Brett Cole (02:38:17):
I don't remember the date, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:38:19):
Well, you certainly remember how you felt when you realized that your appellate options were done, right?
Brett Cole (02:38:25):
That was recently.
Mr. Shamansky (02:38:27):
Recently. Okay. So you had more appeals than just to the 10th Circuit?
Brett Cole (02:38:35):
I go to the Supreme Court.
Mr. Shamansky (02:38:37):
And you were denied there too, right?
Brett Cole (02:38:39):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:38:40):
So your writ of certiorari in the Supreme Court, Supreme Court said, "Sorry, we're not hearing this case," right? And at that point, you're out of options on direct appeal, correct?
Brett Cole (02:38:55):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:38:56):
So you recall getting a visit, of course, from the government, this government, State of Ohio, regarding your lifelong friend, Andrew Griffin, right?
Brett Cole (02:39:10):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:39:11):
And that meeting takes place at a federal penal institution. I tell everybody [inaudible 02:39:19]
Brett Cole (02:39:20):
Illinois.
Mr. Shamansky (02:39:21):
Right. Tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what life is like for a convicted child sex offender in a federal penal institution.
Brett Cole (02:39:35):
It's hard.
Mr. Shamansky (02:39:36):
But why is it hard?
Brett Cole (02:39:40):
I mean, you got to fight.
Mr. Shamansky (02:39:42):
I'm sorry, sir?
Brett Cole (02:39:43):
You have to fight. You pretty much got to fight to stay alive.
Mr. Shamansky (02:39:47):
You have to do what?
Brett Cole (02:39:48):
You have to fight to stay alive.
Mr. Shamansky (02:39:51):
Fight to stay alive. And as I understand it, based on the way you tell it, there's no peace and quiet either, right? They're always banging on your doors, targeting you... possible way, correct?
Brett Cole (02:40:08):
Sometimes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:40:09):
I'm sorry, sir?
Brett Cole (02:40:11):
The institution I'm at is not as bad as others. It is a dropout sex offender friendly yard.
Mr. Shamansky (02:40:18):
Say that again.
Brett Cole (02:40:21):
It is a dropout sex offender friendly yard where I'm at, so there's not as many problems as I would have at other facilities.
Mr. Shamansky (02:40:30):
So what you're saying is that the Federal Bureau of Prisons, understanding how much of a target you have on your back because of your convictions, has placed you with like-convicted individuals, right?
Brett Cole (02:40:46):
Correct.
Mr. Shamansky (02:40:47):
So that way you're not... you understand the process and the risks of being in your position, right?
Brett Cole (02:40:55):
Right.
Mr. Shamansky (02:40:56):
And one of the things that was extremely important to you was getting the State of Ohio to try to help you getting moved, right? Your goal at some point is to get moved back closer to your family, I assume, right?
Brett Cole (02:41:12):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:41:12):
So in addition to life with inside the prison walls [inaudible 02:41:19] hunting, right?
Brett Cole (02:41:19):
No.
Mr. Shamansky (02:41:21):
No fishing, correct?
Brett Cole (02:41:21):
Correct.
Mr. Shamansky (02:41:23):
Your own daughters don't visit you ever, do they?
Brett Cole (02:41:25):
Nope.
Mr. Shamansky (02:41:26):
No contact whatsoever, right?
Brett Cole (02:41:28):
No, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:41:29):
And as it stands right now, you're not going to attend any birthday parties, right?
Brett Cole (02:41:34):
Correct.
Mr. Shamansky (02:41:34):
No weddings, right?
Brett Cole (02:41:36):
Yep.
Mr. Shamansky (02:41:36):
No funerals, right?
Brett Cole (02:41:38):
Yep.
Mr. Shamansky (02:41:39):
You've been cut off from civilized society and your family, and your flesh and blood daughters for the rest of your life, right?
Brett Cole (02:41:45):
That's correct.
Mr. Shamansky (02:41:46):
And that's a very, very terrible circumstance, correct?
Brett Cole (02:41:50):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:41:53):
And you had plenty of opportunity had you chosen... Oh, and by the way, is this the first murder you've ever been complicit in?
Brett Cole (02:42:03):
Can you repeat the question?
Mr. Shamansky (02:42:05):
Yes, sir. You've indicated today that... Let me ask it differently. You've acknowledged in front of this jury planning the murder Tom Strussion, right?
Brett Cole (02:42:17):
Correct.
Mr. Shamansky (02:42:19):
And you've also acknowledged, and we'll get into it in more detail, you're never going to be prosecuted for that murder as long as you cooperate and tell the truth as determined by the prosecutor's office, right?
Brett Cole (02:42:32):
Correct.
Mr. Shamansky (02:42:33):
So of course you still have hope. You haven't given up all hope, have you?
Brett Cole (02:42:39):
No.
Mr. Shamansky (02:42:39):
So you have hope that someday through the 2255 post-conviction sentence review process, that maybe with a little good fortune, you'll be able to breathe some fresh air instead of breathing prison air, right?
Brett Cole (02:42:57):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:43:01):
And you help me if I'm incorrect about this, but when you were originally approached by representatives of the government, you said, "I don't know anything," right?
Brett Cole (02:43:13):
No, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:43:15):
No, you didn't say that?
Brett Cole (02:43:16):
I did not.
Mr. Shamansky (02:43:17):
Oh, okay. When they came to see you, you say, "Hey, I'm happy to talk no matter what." That's your position?
Brett Cole (02:43:25):
When I first spoke with them in Oklahoma, I said, "I don't know nothing."
Mr. Shamansky (02:43:30):
I don't know nothing.
Brett Cole (02:43:32):
Which is a double negative. If I don't know nothing, I know something.
Mr. Shamansky (02:43:36):
Hold on. Again, I'm slow.
Brett Cole (02:43:39):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:43:39):
I just asked you a minute ago when you first met with representatives of the government, you said you didn't know anything.
Brett Cole (02:43:44):
I didn't say anything. I said I don't know nothing.
Mr. Shamansky (02:43:47):
I don't know nothing.
Brett Cole (02:43:48):
It means I know something.
Mr. Shamansky (02:43:51):
Instead I... I'm sorry, sir. You told them, meaning representatives of the prosecutor's office, and correct me if I'm wrong with their words, "I don't know nothing"?
Brett Cole (02:44:03):
Yes, sir. Okay. When the detective come to Oklahoma and talked to me, which is Detective Oller, and I don't remember the other guy's name.
Mr. Shamansky (02:44:13):
You said, "I don't know nothing," right?
Brett Cole (02:44:15):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:44:17):
And then you also indicated that you wanted to talk to your lawyer, right?
Brett Cole (02:44:20):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:44:20):
Your federal lawyer, right?
Brett Cole (02:44:23):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:44:23):
And that's because you wanted to figure out how you could maybe improve your position and not have the whole rest of your life spent at the federal penitentiary and die there, right? You though about that much?
Brett Cole (02:44:37):
Not a lot at the time.
Mr. Shamansky (02:44:39):
Oh, so between your conviction and your appeal getting shot down, you don't really think about what your future looks like for the rest of your life?
Brett Cole (02:44:51):
I mean, yeah.
Mr. Shamansky (02:44:52):
Yeah, what? Yeah, you do?
Brett Cole (02:44:54):
I think about my future.
Mr. Shamansky (02:44:56):
Okay. And so you think about it not in abstract terms, but in what your day-to-day existence is going to be, right?
Brett Cole (02:45:06):
Right.
Mr. Shamansky (02:45:07):
So you'll never have the touch of a woman again, right?
Brett Cole (02:45:11):
Correct.
Mr. Shamansky (02:45:12):
You'll never see your kids again, right?
Brett Cole (02:45:14):
Correct.
Mr. Shamansky (02:45:14):
You'll never live as a normal human being again, right?
Brett Cole (02:45:18):
Correct.
Mr. Shamansky (02:45:19):
And every single day, unless something gets turned around, you're going to take your last breath in those prison walls, right?
Brett Cole (02:45:27):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:45:28):
And for example, Arthur Cole, your grandpa, right?
Brett Cole (02:45:32):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:45:33):
When he passes, you're not going to be there, are you?
Brett Cole (02:45:35):
Definitely not.
Mr. Shamansky (02:45:36):
Or any of your grandparents, right?
Brett Cole (02:45:38):
No, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:45:40):
That right's been taken from you, correct?
Brett Cole (02:45:43):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:45:44):
And so when prosecutors first come to you, you're told that you knew some stuff about this and, "We were hoping that you would help us out with it. We know that he paid you for your attorney and he's your dear good friend, but you're talking about the rest of your life you're looking at, and we're hoping you would help us in exchange, we would help you." Remember that little discussion? Because if you don't remember, we got it on tape.
Brett Cole (02:46:17):
Partially.
Mr. Shamansky (02:46:18):
Okay. And you partially remember saying, "I won't know anything about that."
Brett Cole (02:46:25):
I don't remember saying anything.
Mr. Shamansky (02:46:27):
Okay. So let's take a minute so you can look at your video if you doubt what I'm saying, and then you can either confirm or deny whether I'm telling the truth, okay?
Brett Cole (02:46:38):
Okay. Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:46:41):
May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
Judge (02:46:42):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:47:01):
Let me ask this another way. Hold on one second. Sir, would it help you to look at a transcript of your testimony? And if you think it's accurate, great. If you don't, we can listen to the audio. Would that work for you to refresh your memory?
Brett Cole (02:47:13):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:47:14):
Okay. May I approach, Your Honor?
Judge (02:47:18):
Yes.
Brett Cole (02:47:31):
It says, "I won't know anything about that"?
Mr. Shamansky (02:47:33):
Yeah. You see where you say that?
Brett Cole (02:47:35):
It doesn't say, "I don't know anything about that."
Mr. Shamansky (02:47:36):
You said, "I won't." Yeah, we'll get the words right.
Brett Cole (02:47:38):
Okay.
Mr. Shamansky (02:47:39):
All right, sir. So this refreshing your memory, okay?
Brett Cole (02:47:43):
I see where it says, "I won't know anything."
Mr. Shamansky (02:47:45):
Right. So they're asking you about your good friend, Andrew, right?
Brett Cole (02:47:50):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:47:51):
And you say, "I won't know anything about that," right?
Brett Cole (02:47:54):
Looks to be that way.
Mr. Shamansky (02:47:55):
I'm sorry?
Brett Cole (02:47:56):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:47:57):
Okay. So then you're told by Detective Oller, and correct me if I'm making anything up here, okay?
Brett Cole (02:48:09):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:48:11):
You said, "And unfortunately, from how we know your part in this, it's possible that depending on how it shakes out, let's just say we'd rather have you on our side than somebody that might be attached to all this." Remember that?
Brett Cole (02:48:26):
It sounds familiar.
Mr. Shamansky (02:48:28):
Yeah. Remember him telling you, "You've got enough trouble with what you're looking at. You don't need anymore," right?
Brett Cole (02:48:35):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:48:36):
"It'd just be a little easier for us if you cooperate with us." Remember that?
Brett Cole (02:48:41):
I mean, that sounds right.
Mr. Shamansky (02:48:45):
And how about this statement you made at five minutes and 52 seconds, "I was not involved."
Brett Cole (02:48:53):
I was not physically involved at the house.
Mr. Shamansky (02:48:55):
Sir, I'm asking you, you've got Detective Oller coming all the way to see you in a federal penitentiary, asking you about your involvement in planning a murder, right?
Brett Cole (02:49:08):
Right.
Mr. Shamansky (02:49:09):
And you say, "I..." You utter four words, "I was not involved," right?
Brett Cole (02:49:16):
I mean, it's possible, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:49:17):
Well, sir, I don't want to deal with possibilities. If you think I'm making things up and putting words in your mouth, you can listen to the statement and then tell me if I'm accurate or not.
Brett Cole (02:49:29):
I'm just saying I do not remember it, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:49:30):
All right, Judge, I need him take a look at this portion a second to refresh his memory.
Speaker 8 (02:49:34):
May we approach, Your Honor?
Judge (02:49:35):
Yes. Mr. Shamansky, first, what are we calling this? Is this Defendant's Exhibit 1?
Mr. Shamansky (02:49:45):
That's fine, Your Honor.
Judge (02:49:48):
And then are you playing that from your laptop?
Mr. Shamansky (02:49:51):
We can, so he can hear it and then either-
Judge (02:49:53):
We have to make sure the jury hears it as well.
Mr. Shamansky (02:49:56):
That's fine.
Judge (02:49:56):
We'll plug it in. All right.
Mr. Shamansky (02:49:58):
Your Honor, our difficulty is if there's a transcript attached to this. With the court's permission, if we could just play it off the computer, I think everybody would be able to hear it.
Judge (02:50:07):
All right. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, same thing as when they were on the big screen. If there's any one of you that can't hear it, just raise your hand.
Audio: Speaker 1 (02:50:14):
[inaudible 02:50:32]
Mr. Shamansky (02:51:27):
Did you hear that, sir?
Brett Cole (02:51:29):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:51:30):
So in no uncertain terms, you're telling the law enforcement officials investigating this most serious double homicide that, "I'm not involved." Those are your words, right?
Brett Cole (02:51:40):
No, I didn't hear that. I couldn't understand if they said I'm not involved or how am I involved.
Mr. Shamansky (02:51:50):
Sir, you said, "I was not involved." Do you hear that or do you want to hear it again?
Brett Cole (02:51:55):
I cannot hear it on the computer. I'm sorry, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:51:57):
That's okay.
(02:51:58)
Kate, go up there and let him hear it one more time, please. Hmm?
Kate (02:52:00):
[inaudible 02:52:02].
Mr. Shamansky (02:52:02):
Yeah, stand right next to him. Pop up the volume as loud as needed.
Judge (02:52:06):
You may approach.
Kate (02:52:07):
Thank you, Judge.
Brett Cole (02:52:20):
Can you replay it please?
Audio: Speaker 1 (02:52:32):
[inaudible 02:52:28] You were involved somewhat. [inaudible 02:52:38]
Brett Cole (02:52:39):
I still can't understand if I said how was I involved or I was not involved.
Mr. Shamansky (02:52:44):
Hold on. Let's just stick to what you said on tape. Four simple words, "I was not involved." Those are your words, aren't they?
Brett Cole (02:52:54):
That was me talking.
Mr. Shamansky (02:52:55):
I'm sorry?
Brett Cole (02:52:56):
That was me on the computer.
Mr. Shamansky (02:52:57):
Yeah. And so you know that there's a double homicide investigation afoot, right?
Brett Cole (02:53:04):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:53:05):
And you know that law enforcement are there to try to get information, right?
Brett Cole (02:53:09):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:53:10):
And you lied to them, maybe. You tell them you're not involved, right?
Brett Cole (02:53:15):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:53:15):
All right. So you indicate no involvement.
Audio: Speaker 1 (02:53:22):
[inaudible 02:53:27].
Mr. Shamansky (02:53:27):
Sorry, your honor. And Detective Oller tells you that he'd really like your help. Remember that?
Brett Cole (02:53:54):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:53:55):
And you indicate no. They talk a little bit more about the evidence in the case, right? Remember all that?
Brett Cole (02:54:04):
I can't remember the exact conversation, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:54:08):
Okay. But at some point you speak to your federal lawyer, right?
Brett Cole (02:54:15):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:54:17):
And the reason that you want to speak to your federal lawyer is to see if you can get something in return for cooperating, right?
Brett Cole (02:54:28):
I wanted to talk to my lawyer and tell him what was going on.
Mr. Shamansky (02:54:31):
I understand that, sir. What was going on is that you're being implicated in a murder, correct? You wanted to tell him that.
Brett Cole (02:54:36):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:54:36):
Right?
Brett Cole (02:54:36):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:54:39):
And you wanted to figure out if there was some advantage or leverage to be gained? Admit it.
Brett Cole (02:54:46):
Partially, yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:54:47):
Partially?
Brett Cole (02:54:48):
Well, I didn't understand exactly what I could benefit from this.
Mr. Shamansky (02:54:52):
Right. You didn't quite understand.
Brett Cole (02:54:54):
So I was asking him what could be done.
Mr. Shamansky (02:54:57):
Right. And so you wanted to explore that further, correct?
Brett Cole (02:55:02):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:55:00):
... that further, correct?
Brett Cole (02:55:02):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:55:03):
And so you then began to think about the prospect or the possibility of doing something to get out of this life sentence, right?
Brett Cole (02:55:16):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:55:18):
Okay. And so you knew in your head, or at least you had some notion that once your appeals were over, you really had a tough row to hoe, right?
Brett Cole (02:55:31):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:55:34):
And you knew then from speaking with your lawyer that the only opportunity you could ever hope to have is a 2255 petition, right?
Brett Cole (02:55:48):
Can you repeat that?
Mr. Shamansky (02:55:49):
Yes, sir. You get convicted and you get three life sentences, right?
Brett Cole (02:55:54):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:55:55):
You tell the cops and the prosecutors you don't know nothing, right?
Brett Cole (02:55:59):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:56:00):
You call your federal lawyer, right?
Brett Cole (02:56:03):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:56:04):
Now you're trying to figure out a way to get out of this life sentence. I'm correct on all that so far, right?
Brett Cole (02:56:11):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:56:12):
And you yourself just minutes ago mentioned a 2255 petition, right?
Brett Cole (02:56:17):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:56:18):
And to your understanding, that's a method whereby federal convicts serving life for rape may have a federal judge revisit the sentencing process, right?
Brett Cole (02:56:31):
I'm not exactly sure how the process works.
Mr. Shamansky (02:56:34):
I'm not suggesting you are. I'm suggesting that in your head, you meet with your federal lawyer and you say, "Hey, how can I benefit from talking to the police and the prosecutor?" right?
Brett Cole (02:56:51):
Somewhat, yes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:56:53):
Somewhat? Now, Mr. Cole, you understand how important this proceeding is?
Brett Cole (02:56:59):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:57:00):
And give me the courtesy, no somewhats, either yes or no, you wanted to avoid spending the rest of your life at the boys club, yes or no?
Brett Cole (02:57:12):
Yeah.
Mr. Shamansky (02:57:13):
Okay. Now let's talk a little bit more about your conversations. During your interview at 23:49, Detective Allar says, "I understand that. What can I do for you? What is it that you want? I got it. You want out of this is what I'm getting." And you say, "I want to go home." Remember that?
Brett Cole (02:57:41):
I'm sure if you say I said it, I'm sure it's right.
Mr. Shamansky (02:57:45):
I'm sorry, sir?
Brett Cole (02:57:46):
I do not remember vividly the details, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:57:49):
Okay. Again-
Brett Cole (02:57:50):
I'm sorry. It's been a long time.
Mr. Shamansky (02:57:51):
I know that, but that sounds like something you'd say, "I want to go home," doesn't it?
Brett Cole (02:57:56):
It does.
Mr. Shamansky (02:57:58):
And then do you recall Detective Allar telling you after one, you have up to a year and there's a federal article that they will revisit your case, revisit your sentencing. Do you remember Detective Allar telling you that?
Brett Cole (02:58:13):
Again, I don't remember the details, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:58:19):
Sir, I know you remember the details. That's why I'm asking you about them right now. And again, we could be here until the cows come home listening to this. It's all on tape. I'm going to ask you again, do you remember Detective Allar telling you about a federal rip whereby, "We can dramatically ... There are things that could be done there. We asked them that if you cooperate fully, if we could take to life off your sentence to give you a chance to parole." Do you remember the detective dangling that in front of you?
Brett Cole (02:58:50):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (02:58:51):
Okay. So sequence, you've already lied and said, "I don't know nothing," right?
Brett Cole (02:58:57):
I said I don't know nothing.
Mr. Shamansky (02:59:04):
Right. You call your fed lawyer, then you're talking to the cops about, okay, cooperate with us and maybe we can get you to where you have a chance for parole, right?
Brett Cole (02:59:20):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:59:21):
And then you say, "There's no shot. Life in Fed's, life is life. There's no parole." Remember that?
Brett Cole (02:59:29):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:59:29):
And then the detective tells you, "But we talked to a federal lawyer about this." Remember that?
Brett Cole (02:59:35):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:59:38):
And so you then again indicate, "Feds don't have parole," right?
Brett Cole (02:59:48):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (02:59:49):
And then you indicated that the judge could give you a lesser sentence with cooperation and Detective Allar says, "Yes, exactly." Right? This isn't so hard. This is how this process is evolving, right?
Brett Cole (03:00:03):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:00:04):
Right. Now, your attorney says, "So clearly you can hear from the detective and the prosecutor that they're willing to work with you. They're willing to give you consideration. They're willing to pretty much go out on a limb." And Detective Allar says, "I'll do anything I can for you." Remember?
Brett Cole (03:00:31):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:00:31):
So now you're getting offered incentives, right?
Brett Cole (03:00:38):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:00:38):
Okay. And so after you're fully incentivized-
Judge (03:00:44):
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, there's an issue I need to review, so I'm going to excuse you for a short period of time. Mr. Morris is going to escort you back into the jury room. All right. We are outside the presence ... You can have a seat. Everybody can be seated.
Mr. Shamansky (03:00:56):
Judge, can we plug this thing in? You can see it pretty easily.
Judge (03:01:00):
I just want to make sure I understand the issues. We're outside the presence of the jury. You may proceed.
Mr. Vavra (03:01:05):
Judge, we don't have any issue with the line of questioning. The issue is that we are morphing two different interviews into one and attempting to impeach him with statements without indicating when they occurred. There was an interview in Oklahoma in August of 2023 where there was no attorney involved. That was some of the first comments that were asked about. Then there's an interview in Belmont County in December of 2024 when there was attorney involved who is not a federal attorney. He's a local attorney. So these last few questions now are from that interview and we've kind of morphed them into one and it's just not accurate.
Mr. Shamansky (03:01:47):
Well, Your Honor, with all due respect to the government, I referenced the first interview where, "I don't know nothing," and that was the predicate, right. Now, we're to the interview with all the lawyers are present. And as far as we can tell, this is from at least how it's been given to us, December 18th, 2024 here at the Belmont County Sheriff's Department.
Judge (03:02:17):
So there are two interviews of Mr. Cole?
Mr. Shamansky (03:02:19):
I'm sorry, sir?
Judge (03:02:20):
There are two interviews of Mr. Cole.
Mr. Shamansky (03:02:22):
For sure. We talked about the first one and I had him acknowledge that, "I don't know nothing," or whatever the statement was. And then he says, "I need to call my federal lawyer." And all that transpires. And then next thing you know, we're back here and we're going through this discussion where he's acknowledged the truth of what he already said. So if there's some question about the timeline, I'll ask it again. I mean, it's clear. He's approached by detectives in Illinois, I think is where he is. Maybe it's Oklahoma. It's somewhere out of state. He says, "I don't know nothing. Need to talk to a lawyer." They said ... They back off and say, "Okay." Conversations take place and next thing you know, we're having this Q&A and that's what I'm exploring with him.
Judge (03:03:10):
Okay. First off, as the court or as the parties know, the court does not see any of this evidence prior to trial.
Mr. Shamansky (03:03:18):
Right.
Judge (03:03:18):
So I'm listening and following you closely and I'm getting the impression that this is all from that first interview.
Mr. Shamansky (03:03:26):
Well, I'll clear it up in 10 seconds.
Judge (03:03:29):
And that's what you need to do. I'm agreeing with the State on this. So if he clears that up and when he's asking the questions, he's providing which interview they're from, does that satisfy the State of Ohio?
Mr. Vavra (03:03:41):
Yes, Judge. That's what we're seeking here.
Judge (03:03:43):
And Mr. Shamansky, any problem with that?
Mr. Shamansky (03:03:45):
No, sir.
Judge (03:03:46):
Okay. Then can we bring the jury right back in?
Mr. Shamansky (03:03:50):
Please.
Mr. Vavra (03:03:51):
Yes, Judge.
Judge (03:03:51):
Okay. Please everyone be seated. All right. We are back on the record. All parties are present. The jury has been brought back into the courtroom. Mr. Shamansky, you may proceed.
Mr. Shamansky (03:04:07):
Thank you, Your Honor. Mr. Cole?
Brett Cole (03:04:10):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:04:11):
Let's be super clear about the timeline here so there's no confusion, okay?
Brett Cole (03:04:14):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:04:15):
First time you ever meet with law enforcement, tell the jury where you are.
Brett Cole (03:04:21):
The first time was in Oklahoma.
Mr. Shamansky (03:04:23):
Okay. And that's when you say, "I don't know nothing," or whatever, and I want to call my lawyer. And that ends, right?
Brett Cole (03:04:29):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:04:30):
Okay. Then this information we've just been discussing about lenient sentences and getting rid of the life, that happens December 18th when you're here in Belmont County, right? Or no? Are you still out in Oklahoma?
Brett Cole (03:04:45):
Yeah, I think so.
Mr. Shamansky (03:04:49):
Okay. Regardless, there's a separate meeting, right?
Brett Cole (03:04:54):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:04:55):
And you've already talked to your Fed lawyer, right?
Brett Cole (03:04:58):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:04:59):
And as we've established, you're now trying to get this bargain put together, right? Correct, sir?
Brett Cole (03:05:09):
I don't remember, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:05:11):
Well, I'm going to help you remember. You indicated, and we've already talked about Detective Allar telling you that they're going to try to get the judge to give you a lesser sentence if you cooperate, right?
Brett Cole (03:05:29):
Can you repeat the question?
Mr. Shamansky (03:05:30):
Yes, sir. You had already talked with Detective Allar about getting a lesser sentence, right?
Brett Cole (03:05:37):
In Oklahoma?
Mr. Shamansky (03:05:39):
I'm sorry, sir?
Brett Cole (03:05:40):
When I was still in Oklahoma?
Mr. Shamansky (03:05:42):
Wherever you were on December 18th-
Brett Cole (03:05:44):
I'm confused.
Mr. Shamansky (03:05:46):
... it says, "Department, Belmont County Sheriff's Office." It happened at 3:12:56 Eastern Standard Time, and the interviewer was Chief Detective Ryan Allar. I mean, do you recall that or no?
Brett Cole (03:05:58):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:05:59):
Okay. That's all I'm asking. And you had an attorney there for that interview, remember?
Brett Cole (03:06:05):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:06:08):
And so you also indicated as you were involved in negotiating to get your life sentence reduced, you made some other statements, and again, correct me if I'm wrong, and if you need to hear them, we'll play them for you, okay?
Brett Cole (03:06:24):
Okay.
Mr. Shamansky (03:06:25):
You said at 27:46 into the interview, "If I get on stand in the trial, I'm going to be for him, not against him."
Brett Cole (03:06:37):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:06:38):
So you tell the government while you're doing all this negotiating, "If I have to go to trial, I'm going to be for him, not against him," right?
Brett Cole (03:06:48):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:06:48):
That turned out to be another lie, didn't it?
Brett Cole (03:06:51):
Yeah, I definitely changed my mind on that.
Mr. Shamansky (03:06:54):
That's a definite. And you said, "He's like my brother," right?
Brett Cole (03:06:59):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:07:01):
And then Detective Allar, "While you're locked up," he says that, "Andrew's been out there partying like crazy, drinking all day long," right?
Brett Cole (03:07:08):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:07:09):
And so he's making you think that while you're sitting there spending the rest of your life in prison, your buddy's out having the time of his life, right? Correct?
Brett Cole (03:07:21):
I mean, that's not exactly how it made me feel.
Mr. Shamansky (03:07:24):
Well, if we're just for a minute, straight up about how you felt, right, you're doing anything you can to get your life back, right? That's your goal here. That's what all this discussion is about, 'cause if you can't get rid of that life sentence, your life is really over, right?
Brett Cole (03:07:48):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:07:49):
And so that's why you're engaged in this back and forth negotiation to trade your testimony for the hope of getting that life tail removed, right?
Brett Cole (03:08:00):
Mm.
Mr. Shamansky (03:08:05):
Mm, what?
Brett Cole (03:08:06):
They never promised me to get a sentence reduction.
Mr. Shamansky (03:08:10):
Oh, really?
Brett Cole (03:08:11):
So I mean, I-
Mr. Shamansky (03:08:11):
Well-
Brett Cole (03:08:13):
... know the Feds don't parole, you know.
Mr. Shamansky (03:08:16):
So now your position is you don't expect anything from the government, you're just here because you're a good guy.
Brett Cole (03:08:23):
I expect, they said they would try to relocate me to a closer prison.
Mr. Shamansky (03:08:29):
But-
Brett Cole (03:08:29):
That does not mean I'm going home.
Mr. Shamansky (03:08:31):
Well, no, I understand there's no guarantees, right. I'm only going off of what was discussed.
Brett Cole (03:08:37):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:08:38):
And you certainly remember Detective Allar telling you, "We're going to talk to the federal prosecutor and to your judge to try to get your sentence reduced." You remember that, don't you?
Brett Cole (03:08:51):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:08:52):
Okay. So let's not pretend here. This is too important, all right?
Brett Cole (03:08:57):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:08:58):
Now, sir, Detective Allar told you at 33 minutes, "And listen, Brett, I don't want to come off as an to you and whatnot, but I got two dead people. Now listen, the guy was kind of an asshole, but the girl didn't deserve it, not killed. But for the most part, we know what happened. You went up there, took a gun, .22 revolver, went up there and killed them both." Right? Remember him telling you that?
Brett Cole (03:09:30):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:09:31):
And this is before you've given him any information whatsoever, correct or incorrect?
Brett Cole (03:09:36):
I don't recall, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:09:37):
Well, you want to listen to your statement and see if any of the details have been provided to you, or do you want to take my word for it? Let me suggest this to you, and the government lawyers have a chance to prove me wrong, but up until that point, you never told Detective Allar, "Oh yeah, I knew there was a .22." He's telling you that 'cause you still haven't made the decision to cooperate fully, have you?
Brett Cole (03:10:03):
If you say so.
Mr. Shamansky (03:10:04):
Okay. I do say so. Thank you. You're also incentivized further from Detective Allar when he says, "But, bud, if I could make your life more comfortable at Club Fed, don't take this the wrong way, but from my understanding, you're not a man of means. I mean, I know we can help you out with what's that commissary stuff." Remember that?
Brett Cole (03:10:35):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:10:36):
All right. You remember asking for a number instead of a letter?
Brett Cole (03:10:55):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:10:56):
Tell the jury what that means.
Brett Cole (03:11:00):
I would like to have my life sentence removed and get a number.
Mr. Shamansky (03:11:02):
Right. And that's what you're talking about with the government and with Detective Allar in exchange for your cooperation, correct or incorrect?
Brett Cole (03:11:09):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:11:10):
All right. And you recall being told that the government is willing to share information with the US Attorney's Office for the Eastern District of Oklahoma, right?
Brett Cole (03:11:36):
Can you repeat that?
Mr. Shamansky (03:11:37):
Yes, sir. You were advised during this meeting that representatives of the State of Ohio, the prosecutor's office were going to call the US Attorney's Office in the Eastern District of Oklahoma where you were prosecuted, correct?
Brett Cole (03:11:51):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:11:56):
All right. And then you were cautioned by Prosecutor Flanagan, " I sure as hell am not going to contact the U.S. Attorney's Office when all you're going to do is come into the grand jury and say, 'I don't know anything about what happened.'" Remember that?
Brett Cole (03:12:10):
Yeah. I don't remember-
Mr. Shamansky (03:12:14):
You don't doubt it, do you, that it was said to you?
Brett Cole (03:12:15):
I don't doubt it, but I don't remember it.
Mr. Shamansky (03:12:22):
All right. So at some point you decide that it's in your best interest to become a cooperator, right?
Brett Cole (03:12:28):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:12:29):
And in exchange, you were hoping to maybe get your best case scenario is you get a chance at parole, right?
Brett Cole (03:12:37):
I didn't think that was possible, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:12:39):
Well, they were sure talking it, right? Whether you thought it was possible or not, you were told that it was, right?
Brett Cole (03:12:48):
Kind of, yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:12:49):
Okay. And you were told that you'd get moved somewhere closer to your family, right?
Brett Cole (03:12:53):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:12:54):
And you were told that you might get some money to make your life easier, right?
Brett Cole (03:12:57):
That was not really part of a deal.
Mr. Shamansky (03:13:02):
Well, I'm just talking about what they said. And you can even recall, and you correct me if I'm wrong, Prosecutor Flanagan said, "Do you remember the prosecutor's name?" And you said, "Yeah, I think it's Hannah Jones." Remember that?
Brett Cole (03:13:16):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:13:26):
Okay. And to be fair, they didn't make any guarantees, right?
Brett Cole (03:13:31):
Correct.
Mr. Shamansky (03:13:31):
They just said they'd do what they could do, right?
Brett Cole (03:13:34):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:13:42):
Okay. Prosecutor Flanagan said, "She indicated if there was something to talk about to get back with her. This was after your sentence, and she was the one, I believe they told us about the one-year time period from the time of your sentence. There is no guarantee we can make it." And then Prosecutor Flanagan says, "To modify a sentence," and that's what the U.S. Attorney said, yes. And that's what you're listening to as you're seated there, correct?
Brett Cole (03:14:09):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:14:09):
Okay. Now, let's discuss what you ultimately decide to do, okay? That all right?
Brett Cole (03:14:21):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:14:28):
You've told a version of events here, correct? And you're conspiring with Mr. Griffin, right?
Brett Cole (03:14:42):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:14:43):
And you two are sitting around the proverbial campfire figuring out how you're going to commit this murder, right? Right?
Brett Cole (03:14:55):
We've talked about it. We made plans.
Mr. Shamansky (03:14:57):
Not about it. You talked about how you're going to, both of you, work together to kill a man.
Brett Cole (03:15:03):
I was not going to kill a man.
Mr. Shamansky (03:15:06):
Oh, you weren't?
Brett Cole (03:15:06):
No, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:15:08):
Well, according to you, you made it all possible, right, by picking up a motorcycle, right?
Brett Cole (03:15:14):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:15:16):
And you made it all possible by helping Andrew here understand how to tape up his wrists, right? So there'd be no DNA left behind, right?
Brett Cole (03:15:25):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:15:26):
You're sort of masterminding some of the forensic pitfalls that could have occurred here, correct? According to you.
Brett Cole (03:15:32):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:15:34):
And yet you're the same guy that shows up to buy the motorcycle, correct?
Brett Cole (03:15:40):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:15:41):
And puts a phone number down there that's one number off of Andrew's. That's you, right?
Brett Cole (03:15:47):
I don't remember putting a number down, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:15:49):
You didn't just tell the government a few minutes ago that you filled out the title and it was so unusual because most people don't ask you to do that. That was not you just talking about an hour ago?
Brett Cole (03:15:58):
I said I did not fill it out. The guy there did.
Mr. Shamansky (03:16:01):
You gave me information.
Brett Cole (03:16:02):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:16:02):
Okay. Forgive me. I want to make sure we're accurate here. So you gave him a phone number that was one number off from Andrew's, right?
Brett Cole (03:16:10):
Whatever Andrew told me to tell him is what I did.
Mr. Shamansky (03:16:12):
Right. And you're this criminal mastermind talking about DNA and be careful and don't leave evidence, right? And let's get in front of the cameras. You got all these great ideas, correct?
Brett Cole (03:16:21):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:16:23):
At least you thought they were at the time, right?
Brett Cole (03:16:25):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:16:25):
And yet you're the same guy that puts the number down, one number off his phone number, correct? That's you?
Brett Cole (03:16:30):
I didn't put it down.
Mr. Shamansky (03:16:32):
Gave it to him.
Brett Cole (03:16:33):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:16:34):
And you knew then, as you know now, that that number was only one number off of his regular phone number, right?
Brett Cole (03:16:39):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:16:40):
And that seemed like an okay idea in terms of how to plan a murder 101, right? No, it's pretty stupid, isn't it?
Brett Cole (03:16:48):
Sounds like it.
Mr. Shamansky (03:16:49):
Yeah. And while we're talking about stupidity, in terms of planning how to kill somebody and cover it up, you claim that riding a motorcycle with no plate is not that big of a deal, right? You hide it with a bag or something?
Brett Cole (03:17:05):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:17:05):
Right, okay. So you've got some ideas about how to conceal identity, correct, on this trip, right?
Brett Cole (03:17:11):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:17:12):
And yet after this murder is committed, you claim that you saw a text on Andrew's phone, "Hey, two people were murdered," right?
Brett Cole (03:17:19):
I said, "Tom and Angela have been murdered."
Mr. Shamansky (03:17:21):
Right. So you knew that they were dead, correct?
Brett Cole (03:17:26):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:17:27):
And you were smart enough by 2021, having already been embroiled and locked up for a year to understand how complicity works, right? If you help somebody commit a crime, you're just as guilty, right?
Mr. Vavra (03:17:43):
Objection, Your Honor. [inaudible 03:17:44].
Judge (03:17:43):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:17:44):
I'll withdraw it. That's fine. So you really didn't have a whole great deal of working knowledge about the law, right?
Brett Cole (03:17:54):
No, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:17:54):
Okay. And you had no idea that if you helped somebody commit a crime that, like, that's no problem, right?
Brett Cole (03:18:04):
Can you repeat that?
Mr. Shamansky (03:18:05):
Sure. You certainly knew when you met with Detective Allar that under Ohio law, you were told if you were involved in the commission of this kind of crime, you're just as guilty as a trigger man. You were told that, correct?
Brett Cole (03:18:20):
I don't recall.
Mr. Shamansky (03:18:21):
Oh, you don't recall. Okay. So forget all that. You're still involved in helping your best buddy kill somebody, right?
Brett Cole (03:18:30):
The planning, yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:18:31):
Well, it's more than just planning now, isn't it, sir? You just say planning. Is that what you just said?
Brett Cole (03:18:38):
Planning.
Mr. Shamansky (03:18:39):
Right. But the truth is you did more than plan it, didn't you?
Brett Cole (03:18:41):
I bought the motorcycle, delivered the motorcycle.
Mr. Shamansky (03:18:46):
Yeah. And you told her how to evade detection, right?
Brett Cole (03:18:50):
Which is part of a plan.
Mr. Shamansky (03:18:51):
That's part of the plan. And then afterwards, you kept the motorcycle parts, right?
Brett Cole (03:18:58):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:19:00):
And you didn't ditch those, right?
Brett Cole (03:19:02):
No, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:19:03):
And while we're at it, I'm curious, you said you paid how much for the motorcycle?
Brett Cole (03:19:09):
It was between around 3,500 to 4,000.
Mr. Shamansky (03:19:12):
3,500 to 4,000. Okay. And you were given how much money?
Brett Cole (03:19:20):
Between four to $5,000.
Mr. Shamansky (03:19:23):
And you just kept the 1,500 and claimed it was gas money?
Brett Cole (03:19:27):
I mean, I kept it all, what was left.
Mr. Shamansky (03:19:29):
Huh?
Brett Cole (03:19:29):
I kept what was left.
Mr. Shamansky (03:19:33):
Yeah. And you said something about money for fuel, right?
Brett Cole (03:19:36):
I used part of it for fuel.
Mr. Shamansky (03:19:36):
A very little part of it, right?
Brett Cole (03:19:39):
Sounds like it.
Mr. Shamansky (03:19:40):
Yeah. Now, again, while we're talking here, you then rode the bike a bit, right?
Brett Cole (03:19:53):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:19:54):
And you knew that it was a piece of evidence in a double murder, right?
Brett Cole (03:19:58):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:19:59):
And you didn't have a care in the world cruising it around, correct?
Brett Cole (03:20:02):
No, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:20:03):
And then you even sold it to somebody or you traded it for a truck, right?
Brett Cole (03:20:08):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:20:09):
And you kept all of these pieces of the crime puzzle at granny and granddad's, right?
Brett Cole (03:20:16):
At my grandpa's.
Mr. Shamansky (03:20:17):
Grandpa's, right?
Brett Cole (03:20:18):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:20:19):
And you kept the helmet in your closet, right?
Brett Cole (03:20:21):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:20:33):
And while we're talking about the truth, and I'm not trying to be mean to you, but I mean, you're certainly ... You've lied plenty, right?
Brett Cole (03:20:43):
Not purposefully.
Mr. Shamansky (03:20:44):
I'm sorry?
Brett Cole (03:20:45):
Not on purpose, sir, if I did.
Mr. Shamansky (03:20:47):
You lied by accident?
Brett Cole (03:20:59):
You have confused me several times in this, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:21:01):
I am not trying to do that. I'm strictly asking you if you've told lies in this case.
Brett Cole (03:21:14):
I'm not sure.
Mr. Shamansky (03:21:16):
You what?
Brett Cole (03:21:17):
I'm not sure. No, I-
Mr. Shamansky (03:21:18):
You're not sure, okay. That's fine.
Brett Cole (03:21:23):
You confused me.
Mr. Shamansky (03:21:26):
And you also were the beneficiary of an immunity agreement, right?
Brett Cole (03:21:34):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:21:36):
And we've discussed that agreement at some length, correct? Or rather you did a little bit on direct, right?
Brett Cole (03:21:43):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:21:44):
And you were asked about what you understood, right?
Brett Cole (03:21:48):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:21:50):
And this immunity agreement, it does provide you with quite a benefit, doesn't it?
Brett Cole (03:21:57):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:22:00):
So if, for example, the government's able to follow through on its part of the bargain where they call the prosecutor that prosecuted you for these child, you call them ... What do you call them? Sexual offenses?
Brett Cole (03:22:16):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:22:16):
Yeah. If by chance that works out, you're never going to face any responsibility for helping to plan these murders, right?
Brett Cole (03:22:25):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:22:28):
Right. So that's a very real benefit that you're receiving and that you received and requested in writing, correct?
Brett Cole (03:22:36):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:22:38):
Okay. And so ... Give me one second, Your Honor. Now, sir, I was a little twisted around. So the morning of the 21st, September 21st, 2021, you recall that day?
Brett Cole (03:23:00):
I do not.
Mr. Shamansky (03:23:01):
Sorry?
Brett Cole (03:23:02):
Which day is that, sir?
Mr. Shamansky (03:23:03):
September 21st, 2021. You were asked questions about that date. I'm asking if you recall it.
Brett Cole (03:23:10):
That's the day he returned the motorcycle to me?
Mr. Shamansky (03:23:13):
Well, that's what we're trying to figure out here. I'm trying to figure out what you recall.
Brett Cole (03:23:16):
I don't remember the exact date, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:23:18):
Okay. So you don't remember whether it was the 21st, the 22nd, the 23rd, the 24th?
Brett Cole (03:23:23):
No, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:23:24):
No idea. And do you remember, and correct me if I'm wrong here, that day that the motorcycle comes back, are you on the phone that morning with Andrew? Is he talking to Lisa Balogh and FBI agents and people? Do you recall that or no?
Brett Cole (03:23:44):
Can you repeat the question?
Mr. Shamansky (03:23:45):
Yes, sir. I'm not trying to be tricky with you. You do recall a day where the motorcycle was returned, correct?
Brett Cole (03:23:54):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:23:54):
Because you go and you wait for it, you said, right?
Brett Cole (03:23:58):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:23:59):
And you got nervous and scared, right?
Brett Cole (03:24:00):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:24:01):
And you hightailed it back to Hugo, right?
Brett Cole (03:24:04):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:24:06):
Okay. And was there ever a morning when you recall Andrew speaking to Lisa Balogh? You know who she is, right?
Brett Cole (03:24:11):
I don't remember.
Mr. Shamansky (03:24:14):
You don't remember that, okay.
Brett Cole (03:24:15):
I don't-
Mr. Shamansky (03:24:16):
Do you remember him being on the phone, two of you sitting there going through a drive-through and you listening to the speakerphone conversations?
Brett Cole (03:24:22):
I don't recall.
Mr. Shamansky (03:24:23):
Okay, that's fair. And while we're talking about recollection, sir, you, of course, understand that this is conditioned upon truthful testimony, right?
Brett Cole (03:24:40):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:24:41):
And you understand that the only people who determine if you've been testifying truthfully are your government prosecutors, right?
Brett Cole (03:24:48):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:24:49):
Okay. So you understand it's your job to follow through with the narrative you've already told them, right?
Brett Cole (03:24:59):
Just to tell the truth. That's what I'm trying to do, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:25:03):
Right, right. And I'm getting at your ... And again, we've already established you were not telling the truth when you said you'd get on the stand and help Andrew. You changed your mind about that, right?
Brett Cole (03:25:14):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:25:15):
And you weren't telling the truth and you said you don't know nothing, right? That was a lie, wasn't it? We've established that. Just admit it.
Brett Cole (03:25:23):
I don't know. Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:25:27):
And then the truth starts to become more apparent when offers are made to you for leniency. That's also correct, isn't it?
Brett Cole (03:25:36):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:25:37):
Okay. Give me one second, Your Honor. That's all I have, Your Honor. Thank you.
Judge (03:25:40):
All right. Any redirect?
Mr. Kinsler (03:25:42):
Yes, Your Honor. Just one moment. May I, Your Honor?
Judge (03:25:46):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (03:25:51):
Mr. Cole, I want to clear some things up. When you first spoke to Detective Allar, that was in Oklahoma, correct?
Brett Cole (03:25:58):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:26:00):
Object, leading.
Judge (03:26:07):
Mr. Shamansky is correct.
Mr. Kinsler (03:26:09):
Do you recall where you were when you first talked to Detective Allar?
Brett Cole (03:26:14):
In Muskogee County Jail in Oklahoma.
Mr. Kinsler (03:26:16):
Okay. Do you recall when that was?
Brett Cole (03:26:31):
July 31st '24. July of '24.
Mr. Kinsler (03:26:35):
Do you recall where you were in your criminal process at that time?
Brett Cole (03:26:38):
I was a week or so before sentencing.
Mr. Kinsler (03:26:43):
Okay. Had you been convicted in federal court at that point?
Brett Cole (03:26:50):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:26:52):
Okay. And your sentencing on those, the sentencing for the crime you're currently in prison for was a week away?
Brett Cole (03:26:56):
Yes, sir.
Judge (03:26:58):
Mr. Cole? Can you speak a little louder.
Brett Cole (03:26:59):
Yes, sir. I'm sorry, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:27:05):
And at that juncture, you didn't tell Detective Allar about your involvement in this crime?
Brett Cole (03:27:09):
Correct.
Mr. Kinsler (03:27:11):
And then do you recall the second time you talked to Detective Allar?
Brett Cole (03:27:14):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:27:17):
Do you remember when that was?
Brett Cole (03:27:19):
I think it was December of '25.
Mr. Kinsler (03:27:26):
And do you remember where that took place?
Brett Cole (03:27:30):
Belmont County.
Mr. Kinsler (03:27:32):
Did you know that meeting was going to happen?
Brett Cole (03:27:37):
I didn't know I was coming here for the writ.
Mr. Kinsler (03:27:41):
No one notified you in advance that you were going to be transported from Illinois to Ohio?
Brett Cole (03:27:46):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:27:47):
You didn't reach out to your federal attorney and ask him to contact Belmont County about this?
Brett Cole (03:27:52):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:27:54):
Okay. In fact, how much time had elapsed since your sentence at that point? Do you recall when you were sentenced?
Brett Cole (03:28:05):
I was sentenced on July 31st of '24.
Mr. Kinsler (03:28:10):
And then this meeting took place in December, did you testify of '25?
Brett Cole (03:28:14):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:28:15):
Okay. In those intervening months, did you have your attorney reach out to Belmont County? Did you ever ask your attorney to reach out to Belmont County?
Brett Cole (03:28:22):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:28:23):
Okay. When you came here, when you were brought here on that writ, was your federal attorney present?
Brett Cole (03:28:29):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:28:31):
Did you have an attorney present when you came here?
Brett Cole (03:28:33):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:28:35):
Did one get appointed for you?
Brett Cole (03:28:37):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:28:37):
Is that a local attorney?
Brett Cole (03:28:39):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:28:40):
Okay. Did that attorney represent you in your federal proceedings?
Brett Cole (03:28:43):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:28:43):
And you're currently incarcerated on charges in federal court, right?
Brett Cole (03:28:53):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:28:54):
And that took place where? Do you remember what district you were in?
Brett Cole (03:29:03):
For the courts?
Mr. Kinsler (03:29:04):
Yes.
Brett Cole (03:29:07):
It was in Oklahoma. I don't remember the district.
Mr. Kinsler (03:29:10):
But it was an Oklahoma federal court?
Brett Cole (03:29:12):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:29:13):
Okay. Was that a federal judge in Oklahoma that sentenced you?
Brett Cole (03:29:16):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:29:17):
Was it a federal prosecutor in Oklahoma that prosecuted your case?
Brett Cole (03:29:21):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:29:26):
Okay. You indicated, I think your case is now at the process where your direct appeal is done, correct?
Brett Cole (03:29:32):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (03:29:33):
And you attempted an appeal to the Supreme Court, correct?
Brett Cole (03:29:36):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (03:29:36):
And that was denied?
Brett Cole (03:29:37):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:29:39):
Okay. And you mentioned having that 2255, is that right?
Brett Cole (03:29:42):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:29:43):
What is your understanding of what a 2255 is?
Brett Cole (03:29:46):
Just to prove ineffective counsel, which hopefully I can get 'cause my fed lawyer was ordered by the judge to represent me for no pay. He was not paid my second trial.
Speaker 9 (03:30:00):
No pay. He was not paid my second trial.
Mr. Kinsler (03:30:05):
What's your understanding of what happens if you prevail in that proceeding?
Speaker 9 (03:30:08):
I would think I would go back for another trial.
Mr. Kinsler (03:30:14):
Did the prosecutors in this case promise you that you would win that 2255?
Speaker 9 (03:30:19):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:30:22):
Did any of your lawyers tell you that by cooperating today, you would assure that you would prevail in that 2255?
Speaker 9 (03:30:27):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:30:30):
Have your lawyers represented to you what your chances are of prevailing in your 2255?
Speaker 9 (03:30:37):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:30:39):
They ever told you that you-
Mr. Shamansky (03:30:41):
Object. He said no, Your Honor.
Mr. Kinsler (03:30:43):
Withdrawn, Your Honor. In your subsequent meetings with law enforcement here in Belmont County, did you wind up having an attorney?
Speaker 9 (03:30:52):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:30:52):
Okay. And with that attorney, did you negotiate the immunity agreement that we looked at earlier?
Speaker 9 (03:30:59):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:30:59):
And as a condition of that agreement, you have to testify truthfully?
Speaker 9 (03:31:10):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:31:10):
Is that what you've done here today?
Speaker 9 (03:31:12):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:31:14):
Okay. But previously in Oklahoma, you didn't tell the story that you've told today?
Speaker 9 (03:31:19):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:31:21):
Okay. You didn't tell about your involvement then?
Speaker 9 (03:31:22):
Correct.
Mr. Kinsler (03:31:22):
Okay. You were asked about... Well, let me ask you about your initial statement in Oklahoma. You were asked about saying that you were not involved. What do you recall what you said?
Speaker 9 (03:31:40):
I remember saying, "I don't know nothing and I want a lawyer. I want to talk to my pet [inaudible 03:31:46] lawyer."
Mr. Kinsler (03:31:45):
Why is that significant to you?
Speaker 9 (03:31:47):
To talk to my lawyer?
Mr. Kinsler (03:31:50):
No, what you said that, "I don't know nothing."
Speaker 9 (03:31:56):
I don't know nothing to me is a double negative. I don't know nothing that means I know something.
Mr. Kinsler (03:32:02):
And you were asked about the day the bike was returned. You don't recall the exact date, do you?
Speaker 9 (03:32:07):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:32:08):
Was it the same day you received the call from the burner phone?
Speaker 9 (03:32:11):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:32:11):
Okay. Your Honor, I'm going to show this witness a State's Exhibit 25A.
Mr. Shamansky (03:32:17):
No objection.
Judge (03:32:19):
You may proceed.
Mr. Kinsler (03:32:26):
I'm displaying what's been marked as State's Exhibit 25A. This is a one-page PDF, and I'm going to ask you specifically about... These are phone records that have already been testified to, but I want to ask you about something specific there at the bottom. I want to direct, if you don't mind, look up at the screen on the wall here and then you can look at that one.
(03:33:02)
The bottom right, well, the bottom line there, there's a line marked 220. It's at 9:21, 7:02 AM. It's an incoming call from an 865-566-4775 number. Do you recognize that number?
Speaker 9 (03:33:18):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:33:23):
When you testified the defendant called you from a burner phone, did you recognize the number that day?
Speaker 9 (03:33:45):
No, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:33:45):
Okay. And I didn't show you the top of this record. 25A, this is an excerpt from a record pertaining to phone number 580-372-3870. Was that your number at the time?
Speaker 9 (03:34:00):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:34:01):
Okay. And Carolyn Babcock, you said was your mother, correct?
Speaker 9 (03:34:05):
Yes.
Mr. Kinsler (03:34:06):
Okay. No further questions, Your Honor. Thank you.
Mr. Shamansky (03:34:10):
I'll be super brief if I might.
Judge (03:34:12):
You may proceed.
Mr. Shamansky (03:34:14):
Sir, you get convicted the second time around in the summer of 2023, right?
Speaker 9 (03:34:23):
Yeah, March 23.
Mr. Shamansky (03:34:25):
23. Takes a while to get sentenced in federal court. You went through the pre-sentence process. You objected to the report, correct?
Speaker 9 (03:34:32):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:34:32):
Then in July of 2024, your lawyer filed a sentencing memorandum, correct?
Speaker 9 (03:34:40):
July of '24.
Mr. Shamansky (03:34:41):
You were sentenced about a year later, the next summer, right?
Speaker 9 (03:34:44):
Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:34:45):
And then you just said that that interview that I referenced where all that back and forth talk was going was in 2025, but isn't it true that that was December of 2024?
Speaker 9 (03:34:59):
It's possible, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:35:00):
I'm sorry, sir?
Speaker 9 (03:35:01):
It's possible I got the date wrong.
Mr. Shamansky (03:35:03):
That's okay. I mean, there's a lot going on in your head, right?
Speaker 9 (03:35:07):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (03:35:08):
Okay. That's all I have. Thanks.
Judge (03:35:12):
State have any additional direct?
Mr. Kinsler (03:35:14):
No, Your Honor.
Judge (03:35:15):
All right. May this witness be excused?
Mr. Kinsler (03:35:17):
Yes, Your Honor. Thank you.
Judge (03:35:18):
All right. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Kinsler (03:35:19):
Yes, sir.
Judge (03:35:28):
Mr. Vavra or Mr. Kinsler, you may call your next witness.
Mr. Vavra (03:35:31):
Philip Broadwater.
Speaker 10 (03:35:33):
Do you swear the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Philip Broadwater (03:35:37):
Yes, sir.
Speaker 10 (03:35:38):
Have a seat.
Judge (03:35:40):
Afternoon, sir.
Philip Broadwater (03:35:41):
Good afternoon, Your Honor.
Judge (03:35:42):
Do you object to being filmed?
Philip Broadwater (03:35:42):
Yes, I do.
Judge (03:35:51):
All right. Whenever the state's ready to proceed.
Mr. Vavra (03:35:52):
Thank you, Judge. Sir, can you tell us your name?
Philip Broadwater (03:35:54):
Philip Broadwater.
Mr. Vavra (03:35:56):
And where are you from, sir?
Philip Broadwater (03:35:57):
I live near Kilgore, Texas.
Mr. Vavra (03:36:00):
And in what industry are you employed?
Philip Broadwater (03:36:03):
I'm the operations manager for a security services company in Washington, DC.
Mr. Vavra (03:36:08):
And do you know Arthur Cole?
Philip Broadwater (03:36:12):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (03:36:13):
How do you know Arthur Cole?
Philip Broadwater (03:36:14):
Buddy Cole is what I call him. He's my neighbor at a property I have in Southeast Oklahoma, Big Cedar, Oklahoma. He lives across the road from my property.
Mr. Vavra (03:36:29):
When did you get that property in Big Cedar, Oklahoma?
Philip Broadwater (03:36:33):
2020.
Mr. Vavra (03:36:34):
Okay. And you still own it now?
Philip Broadwater (03:36:36):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (03:36:36):
Okay. And what do you use it for?
Philip Broadwater (03:36:40):
I bought it. It's surrounded by national forest. I bought it to hunt.
Mr. Vavra (03:36:47):
Did you eventually come to meet someone by the name of Andrew Griffin?
Philip Broadwater (03:36:51):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (03:36:51):
And was that through Buddy Cole?
Philip Broadwater (03:36:54):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (03:36:55):
Okay. And do you recall roughly when that was?
Philip Broadwater (03:37:00):
Spring of 2022.
Mr. Vavra (03:37:12):
And what were the circumstances that you met Andrew Griffin?
Philip Broadwater (03:37:16):
Mr. Cole introduced me to him because he's known Andrew his whole life, and Andrew has a lot of property around there, and we have a common interest in hunting, so Mr. Cole put us together.
Mr. Vavra (03:37:35):
And do you see Mr. Griffin in the courtroom today?
Philip Broadwater (03:37:39):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (03:37:40):
Stipulate he's identified our client, Your Honor.
Judge (03:37:42):
Stipulation is noted.
Mr. Vavra (03:37:44):
What was your relationship like with Andrew after meeting him?
Philip Broadwater (03:37:48):
Initially when I met Andrew, it was good. We had a casual, friendly relationship.
Mr. Vavra (03:37:58):
And what would you talk about? What would you do?
Philip Broadwater (03:38:02):
My first interactions with him were all about hunting and fishing. He drove me and my son George around and looked at some property that he owned and some properties that he didn't own, and we rode around the National Forest together.
Mr. Vavra (03:38:20):
Did there come a time... I'll rephrase that. Did you and he have a lot of conversations?
Philip Broadwater (03:38:27):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (03:38:28):
And ranging on what kind of topics would you talk about?
Philip Broadwater (03:38:32):
Hunting, fishing, and real estate.
Mr. Vavra (03:38:37):
Was there a time where business in the state of Ohio became a topic of discussion?
Philip Broadwater (03:38:44):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (03:38:45):
Okay. Can you tell us what Mr. Griffin told you about his businesses in Ohio?
Philip Broadwater (03:38:50):
Mr. Griffin told me that he had gone into business in the Ohio, West Virginia area, into the restaurant business, and that he had moved out there or that he was going back and forth. And at some point... Well, he told me that his business partner in Ohio had come up dead. Somebody shot him in the face and burned his house down. And I asked, well, what was... "Okay, that's a lot of information. What's going on? What happened?"
(03:39:29)
And he unpacked the situation for me, told me that they had gone into business and things were going pretty well. And then at some point he felt like he couldn't trust this guy. He mentioned that Mr. Strussion had taken him to some meetings in Columbus and that he had met some interesting people, and this guy had a lot of cash on hand. And at some point he came back to Oklahoma and he had told me that he put a tracking device on Mr. Strussion's vehicle because he couldn't trust him and he didn't really know what was going on with him.
Mr. Vavra (03:40:19):
Did he talk to you about his investment in the business?
Philip Broadwater (03:40:23):
Over several conversations, over a long period of time, he did. Initially, he did as well, but the numbers tended to change.
Mr. Vavra (03:40:35):
Could you tell us what numbers he told you?
Philip Broadwater (03:40:38):
Initially, he said a couple hundred thousand dollars, something to that effect.
Mr. Vavra (03:40:44):
Did that change over time, you said?
Philip Broadwater (03:40:46):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (03:40:47):
What different figures did he give you?
Philip Broadwater (03:40:49):
At one point, he said the figure was lower than that.
Mr. Vavra (03:41:02):
I mean, you guys are kind of hunting buddies. You said that was a lot of information he gave you?
Philip Broadwater (03:41:12):
Up until that point, everything had been pretty normal between us, and that particular time, that was the first time there were really any red flags about the whole situation, and I just thought that odd and a bit oversharing for someone that he didn't know that well.
Mr. Vavra (03:41:39):
Being you?
Philip Broadwater (03:41:40):
Being me.
Mr. Vavra (03:41:42):
At some point, did he express concerns about his involvement in those murders?
Philip Broadwater (03:41:56):
So, over the time when I knew Andrew, this topic would continue to come up and it became more and more of an issue, more and more stress around this topic. Initially when he talked about it, he didn't seem to be concerned or worried about it. And I'd asked him if he talked about the detective or if he had... I said, "Surely you've spoken to the detectives, you're the business partner."
(03:42:28)
And he said he had. And I said, "So, you're good. You're in the clear." And then later it became clear that the detectives were trying to get in touch with Andrew and making contact with people in Oklahoma.
Mr. Vavra (03:42:49):
And that was information Andrew gave you?
Philip Broadwater (03:42:56):
Yes. And in this small area out there, this kind of became the hot topic out there.
Mr. Vavra (03:43:04):
Did Andrew ever express concern to you about who was talking to the police?
Philip Broadwater (03:43:11):
Yes. Andrew would show up at my cabin from time to time and we would visit, and one time he showed up and he was very noticeably worried and stressed out. He was going through some hard times with his wife, Stacy, at the time, and he had said she's trying to ruin his life and take all of his money and take all of his land, and that she's trying to ruin his reputation and telling lies about him.
Mr. Vavra (03:43:47):
Did he connect it to what happened in Ohio and West Virginia?
Philip Broadwater (03:43:51):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (03:43:52):
How so?
Philip Broadwater (03:43:54):
I said, "Well, what's she saying?" And he said, "Well, she's telling the FBI that I went out to Ohio, that I went to Ohio on a motorcycle and killed those two people."
Mr. Vavra (03:44:07):
What was your reaction when he said that?
Philip Broadwater (03:44:12):
At this point, my reaction, my response to this whole situation was becoming more and more from a position of annoyance, and this isn't my problem. Several times I said, "Andrew, I don't need to know about this stuff. I don't know. I don't want to know. I don't care, but the FBI's asking around and people can't lie to the police if they are asked questions."
Mr. Vavra (03:44:50):
Why'd you tell him that?
Philip Broadwater (03:44:57):
Because ending up in a situation like I'm in here today is not ideal for me.
Mr. Vavra (03:45:01):
And what makes you say that?
Philip Broadwater (03:45:15):
I mean, I have a family, I have work, I have things going on, and it's just a very sad situation all the way around.
Mr. Vavra (03:45:22):
You said you really didn't want him to talk to you about these things, right?
Philip Broadwater (03:45:27):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (03:45:28):
Did that stop him?
Philip Broadwater (03:45:31):
No. He was very worried and very stressed about his relationship with his wife and whatever she was telling the police and the FBI at that time.
Mr. Vavra (03:45:49):
Did you ever talk to him about where he would've been at the time that these murders happened?
Philip Broadwater (03:45:56):
Yes. Initially when he told me, I asked him, I said, " Well, where were you when all this was going on?" And he said he was in West Texas working in the oil field.
Mr. Vavra (03:46:09):
Did you ever ask him again or did that ever come up again in your conversations?
Philip Broadwater (03:46:12):
It came up again, and he said he was in Oklahoma on his tractor.
Mr. Vavra (03:46:17):
Did he say roughly where in Oklahoma? Let me ask this. Did you talk to him about his properties?
Philip Broadwater (03:46:31):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (03:46:32):
Did you go to his properties?
Philip Broadwater (03:46:33):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (03:46:34):
And he says he's in Oklahoma on a tractor.
Philip Broadwater (03:46:37):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (03:46:39):
Did you talk to him about what he was doing with tractors on his properties?
Philip Broadwater (03:46:44):
I mean, he was always doing different work out there, clearing land and doing farm work.
Mr. Vavra (03:46:53):
So, the second time he brought up where he was at the time of the murders, he said on his tractor in Oklahoma.
Philip Broadwater (03:46:59):
And the tractor, as far as I know, his big tractor was only on one property there.
Mr. Vavra (03:47:05):
Okay. And do you know where?
Philip Broadwater (03:47:06):
Yeah, in Muse.
Mr. Vavra (03:47:07):
Did you guys ever talk about ammunition, things like that with hunting?
Philip Broadwater (03:47:23):
Andrew and I had a lot of conversations about firearms and about ammunitions. Again, kind of the connection point for us was always kind of hunting. Hunting involves firearms, so we had lots of conversations about shooting guns and ammunition.
Mr. Vavra (03:47:45):
Did he talk to you about his preferred ammunition?
Philip Broadwater (03:47:53):
Not in depth. I mean, casually we have conversations about what do you carry, this kind of stuff, and I would tell him I carry a 9mm generally. At one point, he mentioned that he shot a raccoon with a 9mm and the raccoon just ate it up, but if you shoot him with a 22, they go right down.
Mr. Vavra (03:48:24):
22 caliber?
Philip Broadwater (03:48:27):
Yes, I believe so.
Mr. Vavra (03:48:32):
Did he ever express to you opinions about the people he was in business with up here?
Philip Broadwater (03:48:36):
He did not express anything to me about the woman. He said initially that Mr. Strussion was pretty cool, and then at some point he began to not trust him and that he was unreliable, he couldn't trust him, and that he was kind of a sketchy or shady guy.
Mr. Vavra (03:49:13):
Was there a time where you were near your home where you had a conversation with Andrew that made you uncomfortable?
Philip Broadwater (03:49:23):
I had been in Oklahoma with a friend of mine and we were traveling home, and as I was almost home, Andrew called me and was like, "Hey, what are you doing?" I said, "Well, I'm almost to the house. What are you doing?" And he said, "I'm right behind you." I said, "Oh, you're in East Texas?" And he goes, "Yeah," and he ended up coming by my house.
Mr. Vavra (03:49:47):
And what'd you two talk about that day?
Philip Broadwater (03:49:49):
So, Andrew, as he showed up, the first order of business, he had several firearms with him that he was trying to sell, and then mostly talking about his ex-wife trying to ruin his life. He asked me some kind of interesting questions. If I was going to leave the country, where would I go? How would I do it? I told him, "Andrew, I can't help you leave the country. I'm not going to do that with everything that's going on."
(03:50:29)
And I remember telling him, "It doesn't matter what you've done. You can't run from whatever it is that you've done or whatever you're running from, and just to let you know, you're not the kind of guy that's going to be able to leave the country and not tell anybody or call somebody or not come back."
Mr. Vavra (03:50:48):
What made you say that to him?
Philip Broadwater (03:50:52):
He's just not that kind of person. He talks to a lot of people in his life.
Mr. Vavra (03:51:03):
After that conversation, that was in North Texas?
Philip Broadwater (03:51:06):
That's in East Texas.
Mr. Vavra (03:51:06):
East Texas, sorry. Did you get an odd call shortly after that?
Philip Broadwater (03:51:15):
Yes. Andrew called me from outside the country.
Mr. Vavra (03:51:18):
How do you know it was from outside the country?
Philip Broadwater (03:51:20):
The number was from outside the country.
Mr. Vavra (03:51:22):
Do you recall where?
Philip Broadwater (03:51:24):
Central America, I believe. Nicaragua.
Mr. Vavra (03:51:28):
Did you answer it?
Philip Broadwater (03:51:30):
He called several times. The first couple of times I didn't, and then I did.
Mr. Vavra (03:51:37):
Tell us about that conversation.
Philip Broadwater (03:51:43):
That conversation was really like, "Hey, man, what's going on? Are you okay?" "Yes, I'm okay." "What happened?" And he had told me that somebody was trying to kill him, that someone had run him off the road and shot at him out in West Texas, and that's why he felt like he needed to leave the country.
Mr. Vavra (03:52:17):
I mean, that's kind of another heavy thing to lay on somebody, right?
Philip Broadwater (03:52:21):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (03:52:21):
Did you try to follow up with him and find out-
Philip Broadwater (03:52:24):
I did. I said, "Who tried to shoot at you?" And he said, " I don't know, some Mexicans." And he said they rear-ended him, and when he got out to go talk to them, they started shooting at him. I said, "Well, what kind of car?" And he didn't know. I said, "Well, where were you?" And he said, "West Texas." I said, "Whereabouts?" And he said, "Out there off of I-20 somewhere."
Mr. Vavra (03:53:01):
Why were you trying to find out more?
Philip Broadwater (03:53:07):
I mean, at this point, this is kind of something that I'm involved in. Everybody out at the cabins and Big Cedar is talking about this all the time. Some people are trying to figure out where Andrew is. A lot of people are claiming they don't know, and it was just kind of something that was going on, and it just didn't seem plausible to me that somebody would rear-end him on the side of the road and try to shoot him.
Mr. Vavra (03:53:48):
Did you have more than one conversation while he was out of the country or just the one?
Philip Broadwater (03:53:56):
There was one more, but there was nothing really interesting or that I can recall about it.
Mr. Vavra (03:54:06):
On this call, did he tell you... You said because of the issue in West Texas is why he went to Mexico?
Philip Broadwater (03:54:15):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (03:54:16):
Did he ever talk about other reasons why he went down there?
Philip Broadwater (03:54:21):
It was all kind of part of a larger conversation regarding everything that was going on with him and his ex-wife in Oklahoma and the things she was saying to the FBI.
Mr. Vavra (03:54:34):
Did you give him any advice?
Philip Broadwater (03:54:35):
Well, before Andrew left, I told him, I said, "Andrew, if you leave the country, you look very guilty like you're running from something. If you leave the country, don't tell anybody and don't call anybody. Don't call me." And he did.
Mr. Vavra (03:54:57):
When he did call you and he is down there, did you give him any advice?
Philip Broadwater (03:55:02):
Regarding what?
Mr. Vavra (03:55:04):
Just what was going on in his world?
Philip Broadwater (03:55:18):
Not that I can recall.
Mr. Vavra (03:55:21):
Did you ever directly ask him if he was involved in what happened here?
Philip Broadwater (03:55:28):
I never put him on the spot and asked him, "Did you kill these people?" But I did at one point... Well, as part of over two times, once at my cabin before he had left, and then once over the phone when he was out of the country as part of the conversation, I'm like, "This looks really bad. The FBI is trying to find you.
(03:56:02)
She's saying these things, and now you've left the country. Do they have any evidence on you or anything like that?" And he said, "They're definitely not going to find a murder weapon on me," or anything like that.
Mr. Vavra (03:56:17):
In your discussions with him, did the name Brett Cole ever come up?
Philip Broadwater (03:56:31):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (03:56:32):
Tell us how that name came up.
Philip Broadwater (03:56:37):
Well, Brett Cole is Arthur Cole's grandson, and I had heard him mentioned several times by Andrew and by Mr. Cole. I knew that they were good friends, that they had grown up together. And at one point on my property in Oklahoma, there's some land near there. It's my land attached to it that I wanted to get cleared. Andrew had a mulching machine, and I hired him to do it, and he brought his machine over in a Chevy pickup truck, like a flatbed, pulling the machine on a trailer.
(03:57:29)
I asked, " Whose truck is that? Is that your truck?" And he said, "No, it's my buddy Brett's." I said, "Well, what's going on with Brett? Where's Brett?" He informed me of Brett Cole's situation, told me that he was in jail for a crime he didn't do, so I inquired and asked a couple of questions trying to figure out who this guy was. And he told me what he was incarcerated for, and I'm like, "Andrew, I'm not crazy about having this guy's vehicle parked on my property if he's been convicted of these crimes." And Andrew was very much of the opinion that he didn't do it, he would never do something like that, and Andrew said that he had given him $50, 000 for his defense.
Mr. Vavra (03:58:40):
Do you recall, as you sit here today, the last time you spoke to Andrew, when that would've been?
Philip Broadwater (03:58:48):
I don't recall a date when it would've been.
Mr. Vavra (03:58:51):
Was it before or after he left the country?
Philip Broadwater (03:58:55):
It was after he had gotten back.
Mr. Vavra (03:58:59):
After he came back, did you have many more conversations with him?
Philip Broadwater (03:59:04):
Not many.
Mr. Vavra (03:59:07):
No further questions, Judge.
Judge (03:59:09):
Any cross-examination?
Mr. Shamansky (03:59:11):
Yes, sir.
Judge (03:59:13):
You may proceed when you're ready.
Mr. Shamansky (03:59:14):
I'm ready, Your Honor. Thank you, sir. Good afternoon.
Philip Broadwater (03:59:18):
Good afternoon, Mr. Shamansky.
Mr. Shamansky (03:59:20):
Good to see you. I know this is the last place you want to be. I get that. That's a fair statement, right? Well, maybe not the last place, but...
Philip Broadwater (03:59:32):
I can think of worse places.
Mr. Shamansky (03:59:33):
Yeah, but you indicated that personally and professionally, this is no picnic. Is that fair to say?
Philip Broadwater (03:59:40):
This has been going on for quite some time, and it's a sensitive topic for a whole lot of people.
Mr. Shamansky (03:59:46):
Right. So, I'm primarily concerned with the sensitivities surrounding, of course, your involvement, and you indicated a minute ago that Andrew was talking about hightailing it out of the country, right? And you said, "Don't run, not worth it." Correct? Something about the FBI's looking for you, you said he said, right?
Philip Broadwater (04:00:17):
I said what I said.
Mr. Shamansky (04:00:18):
Well, what you actually said in your interview-
Philip Broadwater (04:00:22):
Today?
Mr. Shamansky (04:00:23):
Why would you leave? You just got these charges, these arrests for this domestic stuff, but that's no reason to leave the country. That sound right?
Philip Broadwater (04:00:32):
Yes. He was facing some domestic charges that he had told me about in Oklahoma. And I said, "If you're leaving because of this, this is not the end of your life here."
Mr. Shamansky (04:00:47):
Right. Which is good advice, correct? I mean, wife leave the country over a spat with your wife or whatever it is, right? Better to stand and face it as a man would, correct? Correct?
Philip Broadwater (04:01:01):
I would say that's correct.
Mr. Shamansky (04:01:04):
All right. Now, you're involved in the private security industry, correct?
Philip Broadwater (04:01:11):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (04:01:11):
And what that means is that you're based in DC, right? At least your firm is.
Philip Broadwater (04:01:17):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (04:01:18):
And private individuals can hire your firm to protect them, right?
Philip Broadwater (04:01:25):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (04:01:25):
You carry a sidearm, correct? If you're involved in some high risk personal protection, you're equipped with firearms, right?
Philip Broadwater (04:01:35):
I have license to do that in the state of Texas.
Mr. Shamansky (04:01:38):
Right.
Philip Broadwater (04:01:38):
I primarily exist in a managerial capacity.
Mr. Shamansky (04:01:43):
I understand. And in your role as a manager, you of course understand how law enforcement functions, correct?
Philip Broadwater (04:01:49):
I'm not a law enforcement officer. I don't have any law enforcement experience.
Mr. Shamansky (04:01:52):
I understand that, but you understand in our country, there are law enforcement agencies, correct?
Philip Broadwater (04:02:00):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (04:02:01):
And you're aware that as a citizen, if you are cognizant or knowledgeable regarding a murder or criminal activity, you pick up the phone and call the cops, right? Isn't that what American citizens are supposed to do?
Philip Broadwater (04:02:20):
Well, you're talking in hypotheticals.
Mr. Shamansky (04:02:23):
I most certainly am. Yes, sir. I'm talking in your world as a highly trained project manager that oversees a pretty important security network, you're aware that if knowledge about a murder comes to your attention, you pick up the phone and call the authorities, right?
Philip Broadwater (04:02:41):
Yes.
Mr. Shamansky (04:02:41):
That's all I have. Thank you.
Philip Broadwater (04:02:43):
Well, I want to say something to you, sir.
Mr. Shamansky (04:02:45):
I'm sure you do, but that's all I have.
Judge (04:02:47):
You're unable to respond to his question. Mr. Vavra?
Mr. Vavra (04:02:56):
One minute, Judge. Briefly, Judge.
Judge (04:03:09):
Go ahead. You may proceed.
Mr. Vavra (04:03:11):
Sir, do you recall when you first talked to law enforcement in this case, actually talked to somebody in detail?
Philip Broadwater (04:03:19):
Yes, it was in Pennsylvania. I was in Pennsylvania as part of a work project.
Mr. Vavra (04:03:24):
Okay. And did you talk to Detective Oller?
Philip Broadwater (04:03:27):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (04:03:29):
Prior to that, did you make any other attempts to reach out to the sheriff's office here?
Philip Broadwater (04:03:33):
Yes, I did. As soon as Andrew had told me the first time he had mentioned this Ohio business and these murders to me, I thought it odd enough that I should look into it, and I did. I looked online, I found Detective Oller's number, and I did reach out two different times to the Belmont County Sheriff's Department, I believe. I left two messages and I didn't hear anything back, so I assumed two different things.
Mr. Shamansky (04:04:07):
Object as to any assumptions.
Philip Broadwater (04:04:09):
I-
Judge (04:04:10):
Hold on. Do you have a response?
Mr. Vavra (04:04:15):
No, Judge. I agree. I don't think he can talk about what he assumed.
Judge (04:04:19):
Okay. Then do you have an additional question?
Mr. Vavra (04:04:21):
Yes. You made those calls, you didn't get a response?
Philip Broadwater (04:04:26):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (04:04:27):
Immediately?
Philip Broadwater (04:04:27):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (04:04:28):
And it wasn't until later on when Detective Oller reached out to you?
Philip Broadwater (04:04:31):
Correct.
Mr. Vavra (04:04:32):
Do you know how long of a gap there was between your calls at the Sheriff's office when you heard from Detective Oller?
Philip Broadwater (04:04:41):
It was a substantial amount of time, maybe a couple of months, but I couldn't say for sure.
Mr. Vavra (04:04:48):
Okay. No further questions.
Mr. Shamansky (04:04:50):
Any redirect? Yes, sir. While we're talking about things, you told Detective Oller that Andrew's wife, Stacy, and Grandpa Cole...
Mr. Shamansky (04:05:00):
Stacey and Grandpa Cole each independently told you that the motorcycle was pitched in the river, right?
Philip Broadwater (04:05:10):
Andrew told me that-
Mr. Shamansky (04:05:12):
Hold on, sir. Listen. Listen.
Philip Broadwater (04:05:14):
... that's what she was saying.
Mr. Shamansky (04:05:14):
Hang on. I need you to listen to my question, please.
Philip Broadwater (04:05:18):
I heard your question.
Mr. Shamansky (04:05:18):
Well, then I'm going to ask you to respond to it and listen to it again.
Philip Broadwater (04:05:22):
Okay.
Mr. Shamansky (04:05:22):
Because I got the recording here and it says... And again, we can listen to it, but you indicated that... And this is at 19:51, you volunteered to Detective Allar, "I'm assuming you've heard the story about the motorcycle getting thrown in the Red River. Yeah, that's what Mr. Cole and Stacy told me." That was your statement, correct?
Philip Broadwater (04:05:48):
Correct.
Mr. Shamansky (04:05:48):
All right, that's all I have. Thank you.
Judge (04:05:49):
Mr. Vavra?
Mr. Vavra (04:05:55):
Did you ever hear anything from Andrew about the motorcycle?
Philip Broadwater (04:05:58):
Before I had ever talked to Mr. Cole or Stacy about this, when Andrew came to my property and was noticeably shaken and upset about this, he told me that she's trying to ruin my life. She's trying to take all my stuff. She's telling the FBI that I went out there and killed those people on a motorcycle and brought it back and threw it in the Red River. And then not too long after that, Mr. Cole and Stacy said that.
Mr. Vavra (04:06:31):
Okay. That's all, Judge.
Mr. Shamansky (04:06:31):
I'm good. Thank you.
Judge (04:06:31):
Okay. Mr. Vavra, may this witness be released?
Mr. Vavra (04:06:33):
Yes, Judge.
Judge (04:06:36):
Thank you, sir.
Philip Broadwater (04:06:36):
Thank you, Your Honor.
Judge (04:06:37):
Mr. Vavra, Mr. Shamansky-
Mr. Shamansky (04:06:59):
Can we approach one second, sir?
Judge (04:06:59):
Yes. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you've been out here for about two hours. We had a real quick break, but we brought you right back in. So we're going to take a 15-minute recess. Mr. Gortz, as always, we'll escort you to the jury... Presence of the jury. Any issues that need addressed by the state?
Mr. Vavra (04:07:13):
No, Judge.
Judge (04:07:13):
Mr. Shamansky?
Mr. Shamansky (04:07:16):
No, sir. Thank you.
Judge (04:07:17):
All right, then the court will be in recess for 15 minutes. Be seated. All right, we're back on the record. State of Ohio versus Andrew Griffin. Again, Mr. Griffin is present in the courtroom with his counsel. The state of Ohio is present and the jury is present in the courtroom. Mr. Vavra, is the state ready to call its next witness?
Mr. Vavra (04:08:00):
Yes, Judge. The state calls Aimy Chase.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (04:08:04):
Aimy Chase. Just stand on this step, please. And raise your right hand, please? Do you swear the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Aimy Chase (04:08:23):
Yes.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (04:08:24):
You can have a seat.
Aimy Chase (04:08:30):
Okay.
Judge (04:08:30):
Afternoon, ma'am.
Aimy Chase (04:08:30):
Afternoon.
Judge (04:08:32):
Do you object to being filled?
Aimy Chase (04:08:35):
No. Yes.
Judge (04:08:35):
You do?
Aimy Chase (04:08:36):
Yes.
Judge (04:08:37):
Okay. You may proceed, Mr. Vavra.
Mr. Vavra (04:08:42):
Thank you, Judge. Ma'am, can you tell us your name?
Aimy Chase (04:08:46):
Aimy Chase.
Mr. Vavra (04:08:47):
Okay. If you could try to speak in the mic and just try to keep your voice up. Spell your first name for the court.
Aimy Chase (04:08:55):
It's A-I-M-Y.
Mr. Vavra (04:08:57):
Okay. And where are you from?
Aimy Chase (04:08:59):
Hugo, Oklahoma.
Mr. Vavra (04:09:01):
And you working right now?
Aimy Chase (04:09:03):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:09:04):
Where do you work?
Aimy Chase (04:09:05):
It's Fairfield Motel.
Mr. Vavra (04:09:10):
Okay. What do you do there?
Aimy Chase (04:09:10):
I do laundry and clean rooms.
Mr. Vavra (04:09:11):
I want to direct your attention to the timeframe September of 2021, okay?
Aimy Chase (04:09:20):
Mm-hmm.
Mr. Vavra (04:09:20):
At that point, do you recall where you were living?
Aimy Chase (04:09:25):
At my apartment.
Mr. Vavra (04:09:31):
Where is your apartment at that time?
Aimy Chase (04:09:33):
In Hugo.
Mr. Vavra (04:09:34):
Okay. Were you dating anyone?
Aimy Chase (04:09:35):
Brett Cole.
Mr. Vavra (04:09:37):
And did you spend time at his place as well?
Aimy Chase (04:09:41):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:09:41):
And where was he living at that time or was there more than one place?
Aimy Chase (04:09:46):
He was living at his mother's house in Hugo, and he stayed at his grandpa's house in Frogville.
Mr. Vavra (04:09:54):
Okay. His mom's house was in Hugo itself?
Aimy Chase (04:09:57):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:09:58):
And the grandpa's house, where did you say it was?
Aimy Chase (04:10:04):
I'm pretty sure it's in Frogville.
Mr. Vavra (04:10:04):
Frogville?
Aimy Chase (04:10:04):
Maybe. Yeah.
Mr. Vavra (04:10:04):
Frogville?
Aimy Chase (04:10:04):
Yeah.
Mr. Vavra (04:10:10):
Okay. Is that close to Hugo?
Aimy Chase (04:10:11):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:10:12):
Okay. About how far?
Aimy Chase (04:10:13):
Maybe eight, six miles.
Mr. Vavra (04:10:16):
Did you spend time with him at both of those locations?
Aimy Chase (04:10:19):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:10:19):
Okay. Through dating Brett, did you ever come to meet Andrew Griffin?
Aimy Chase (04:10:28):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:10:29):
Okay. And what was your understanding of Brett and Andrew's relationship?
Aimy Chase (04:10:33):
They were best friends.
Mr. Vavra (04:10:35):
And do you see Andrew in the courtroom here today?
Aimy Chase (04:10:36):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:10:37):
We'll stipulate she's identified Andrew, Your Honor.
Judge (04:10:40):
Stipulation is so noted.
Mr. Vavra (04:10:44):
Was there a time back in September 2021 where you noticed Brett had a second cell phone with him?
Aimy Chase (04:10:53):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:10:55):
You're dating, right?
Aimy Chase (04:10:57):
Right.
Mr. Vavra (04:10:58):
Where are you when you see this? What location?
Aimy Chase (04:11:01):
It was under the edge of the bed.
Mr. Vavra (04:11:05):
Okay. What house?
Aimy Chase (04:11:05):
In his mother's house in Hugo, Oklahoma.
Mr. Vavra (04:11:10):
So your boyfriend, girlfriend, you see a second phone. Was it ringing or going off?
Aimy Chase (04:11:15):
It was vibrating.
Mr. Vavra (04:11:18):
Okay. What was going through your head when you see this?
Aimy Chase (04:11:20):
I was thinking maybe a girlfriend's phone or something.
Mr. Vavra (04:11:22):
Were you upset?
Judge (04:11:26):
Mr. Vavra, I'm interrupting. Try to get a little bit closer to the microphone. It's no problem, but the reason Mr. Vavra started you that way is we have a court reporter right here that's taking down everything you're saying.
Aimy Chase (04:11:35):
Okay.
Judge (04:11:36):
Thank you. Just a little bit louder.
Aimy Chase (04:11:38):
Okay.
Mr. Vavra (04:11:42):
Did you know it wasn't his phone?
Aimy Chase (04:11:44):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:11:45):
Why or how?
Aimy Chase (04:11:47):
I've never seen him with two phones before.
Mr. Vavra (04:11:49):
Did he also have his phone?
Aimy Chase (04:11:51):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:11:57):
Did you decide to confront him about it?
Aimy Chase (04:12:00):
I asked him whose phone it was.
Mr. Vavra (04:12:02):
Okay. And when you first asked him, what was his response?
Mr. Shamansky (04:12:05):
Objection. Nobody told her.
Aimy Chase (04:12:08):
It was-
Judge (04:12:08):
I'm sorry, hold on there. Mr. Shamansky, what was your objection?
Mr. Shamansky (04:12:11):
Sir, just object to what he told her.
Mr. Vavra (04:12:15):
Approach, Your Honor?
Judge (04:12:16):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:12:20):
I had asked you, you confronted Brett about having the second phone?
Aimy Chase (04:12:24):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:12:24):
And he gave you a response at that time, correct?
Aimy Chase (04:12:29):
Yes, he did.
Mr. Vavra (04:12:30):
What did he tell you?
Aimy Chase (04:12:31):
He said that was Andrew Griffin's phone.
Mr. Vavra (04:12:33):
Okay. And did he tell you at that point why he had the phone?
Aimy Chase (04:12:37):
Yes. He said that Andrew and his business partner took his money or something and was threatening his family. And he was going to go take care of him or he was going to get him before he got him.
Mr. Vavra (04:12:59):
So I want to follow you there. So Andrew was going to get the business partner before the business partner got him?
Aimy Chase (04:13:07):
Yeah, that's what Brett said.
Mr. Vavra (04:13:11):
Did he have any further statements to you about the phone or what was going on?
Aimy Chase (04:13:21):
Excuse me.
Mr. Shamansky (04:13:22):
Your Honor, I just wanted to object to that last line of questioning. I though we were just talking about the phone. Now she's talking about what Brett said Andrew said. So just the same objection I made earlier, just to cover the bases.
Judge (04:13:38):
All right. And the same reasoning by the state?
Mr. Vavra (04:13:38):
Yes, Judge.
Judge (04:13:38):
All right. Your objection noted, but overruled.
Mr. Shamansky (04:13:40):
Yes, sir.
Mr. Vavra (04:13:42):
When Brett told you this, did he give you any instruction about whether you should talk about it?
Aimy Chase (04:13:49):
Yeah, he told me not to tell no one.
Mr. Vavra (04:13:54):
Around this time, did you ever see a motorcycle with Brett?
Aimy Chase (04:13:58):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:13:59):
Where did you see it?
Aimy Chase (04:14:02):
In the front yard.
Mr. Vavra (04:14:03):
Of what property?
Aimy Chase (04:14:04):
I don't remember.
Mr. Vavra (04:14:09):
Okay. Was it one of Brett's?
Aimy Chase (04:14:11):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:14:12):
Okay. So it was either mom's or...
Aimy Chase (04:14:15):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:14:15):
Grandpa's?
Aimy Chase (04:14:15):
Yeah.
Mr. Vavra (04:14:16):
Okay. Did you ever see Brett have anything else that belonged to Andrew around this time?
Judge (04:14:31):
We're going to take a break if that's the second time that you need to exit the courtroom. You can proceed, Mr. Vavro.
Mr. Vavra (04:14:48):
Thank you, Judge. Did you see Brett with anything else that belonged to Andrew around this time?
Aimy Chase (04:15:00):
The phone, which is-
Mr. Vavra (04:15:06):
Okay.
Aimy Chase (04:15:06):
I don't know.
Mr. Vavra (04:15:06):
Do you recall whether you went-
Judge (04:15:08):
Did you answer that question?
Aimy Chase (04:15:09):
I don't know. No, I didn't see anything else.
Judge (04:15:14):
Okay.
Mr. Vavra (04:15:24):
So Brett was there at the house?
Aimy Chase (04:15:26):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:15:27):
Anybody else there at the house?
Aimy Chase (04:15:28):
Dalton.
Mr. Vavra (04:15:29):
Dalton, last name?
Aimy Chase (04:15:31):
Ray.
Mr. Vavra (04:15:32):
And who was Dalton Ray?
Aimy Chase (04:15:34):
Brett's friend.
Mr. Vavra (04:15:36):
Did he stay with Brett sometimes as well?
Aimy Chase (04:15:38):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:15:41):
Do you recall around this time whether you went to a store called F&F Feed with Brett?
Aimy Chase (04:15:45):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:15:45):
Okay. Did you go there a lot with him?
Aimy Chase (04:15:50):
Yeah, he got feed for horses.
Mr. Vavra (04:15:52):
Okay. At the time that Brett went to jail, were you and he still dating?
Aimy Chase (04:16:06):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:16:06):
Okay. And at that point, did somebody become Brett's power of attorney?
Aimy Chase (04:16:19):
Andrew.
Mr. Vavra (04:16:20):
Okay. So Andrew was his power of attorney?
Aimy Chase (04:16:23):
Yeah.
Mr. Vavra (04:16:24):
And do you recall- did Andrew collect any of his property?
Aimy Chase (04:16:27):
Yes, he took his guns and his truck.
Mr. Vavra (04:16:34):
Okay. Anything else?
Aimy Chase (04:16:35):
His phone.
Mr. Vavra (04:16:38):
Did you yourself talk to or converse with Andrew much?
Aimy Chase (04:16:45):
Just a couple occasions.
Mr. Vavra (04:16:46):
Okay. And what was the reason you talked to him?
Aimy Chase (04:16:50):
Andrew had me download a Cash App.
Mr. Vavra (04:16:53):
What's a Cash App?
Aimy Chase (04:16:55):
Where you can receive money.
Mr. Vavra (04:16:56):
Okay. And what was the reasons he wanted you to download a Cash App?
Aimy Chase (04:17:00):
So he could send Brett money in jail.
Mr. Vavra (04:17:06):
So he would send you money?
Aimy Chase (04:17:08):
He would put the money on the Cash App. I would pull it off and give it to his mother.
Mr. Vavra (04:17:12):
Brett's mother?
Aimy Chase (04:17:13):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:17:14):
Okay. So you talked about that with Andrew?
Aimy Chase (04:17:17):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:17:18):
Okay. Did you talk to him really about much else ever?
Aimy Chase (04:17:20):
No.
Mr. Vavra (04:17:24):
During the time that you saw Brett with the two phones, you also saw Dalton, correct?
Aimy Chase (04:17:31):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:17:32):
Do you recall around that time, did you ever see Andrew in Oklahoma or around?
Aimy Chase (04:17:38):
No.
Mr. Vavra (04:17:41):
And do you recall the last time you ever talked to Andrew?
Aimy Chase (04:17:50):
The last time I remember talking to him was taking Brett's court clothes to him.
Mr. Vavra (04:17:58):
So when you took Brett's clothes to Andrew for a court hearing?
Aimy Chase (04:18:06):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:18:06):
Okay. And do you recall the last time you talked to Mr. Cole?
Aimy Chase (04:18:09):
It's been years.
Mr. Vavra (04:18:11):
Okay. Was he in jail at the time?
Aimy Chase (04:18:14):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:18:17):
No further questions, Judge.
Mr. Shamansky (04:18:19):
Judge, give me half a second, please.
Judge (04:18:20):
Yeah.
Mr. Shamansky (04:18:23):
No questions. Thank you, Your Honor.
Judge (04:18:27):
Mr. Vavra?
Mr. Vavra (04:18:28):
We are done with this witness, Your Honor.
Judge (04:18:30):
All right. So she may be released?
Mr. Vavra (04:18:31):
Yes, sir.
Judge (04:18:32):
Thank you, ma'am. Mr. Vavra, you may call your next witness.
Mr. Vavra (04:18:45):
Colton Karr.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (04:18:49):
Colton Karr. Raise your right hand please. Do you swear the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Colton Karr (04:18:58):
I do.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (04:18:59):
Have a seat.
Judge (04:19:00):
Good afternoon, sir. Do you object to being filmed?
Colton Karr (04:19:05):
I don't want to be filmed.
Judge (04:19:07):
All right. Thank you. You may proceed, Mr. Vavra.
Mr. Vavra (04:19:10):
Thank you, Judge. Sir, can you tell us your name?
Colton Karr (04:19:12):
Colton Karr.
Mr. Vavra (04:19:14):
How do you spell your first name?
Colton Karr (04:19:15):
C-O-L-T-O-N.
Mr. Vavra (04:19:17):
Last name?
Colton Karr (04:19:17):
K-A-R-R.
Mr. Vavra (04:19:19):
And where are you from?
Colton Karr (04:19:20):
Hugo, Oklahoma.
Mr. Vavra (04:19:22):
And are you related to Brett Cole?
Colton Karr (04:19:24):
Yes, he's my brother.
Mr. Vavra (04:19:25):
Okay. And he's your older brother?
Colton Karr (04:19:28):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:19:28):
You know how much older?
Colton Karr (04:19:30):
Like six years.
Mr. Vavra (04:19:34):
In September of 2021, where were you living?
Colton Karr (04:19:38):
Hugo.
Mr. Vavra (04:19:38):
Okay. And do you know where Brett was living at that time?
Colton Karr (04:19:42):
Yes. Sawyer, Frogville area.
Mr. Vavra (04:19:47):
And whose property was that at the Sawyer, Frogville area?
Colton Karr (04:19:51):
Our grandpa's.
Mr. Vavra (04:19:55):
And was he in a relationship with anybody at that time?
Colton Karr (04:19:57):
With Aimy.
Mr. Vavra (04:19:58):
Okay. Would she stay with him at times?
Colton Karr (04:20:02):
Yes, she stayed with him for a while.
Mr. Vavra (04:20:04):
Anybody else stay with him at times?
Colton Karr (04:20:08):
Not that I know of.
Mr. Vavra (04:20:11):
Okay. Do you know Andrew Griffin?
Colton Karr (04:20:12):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:20:13):
How'd you come to know Andrew Griffin?
Colton Karr (04:20:15):
Through Brett.
Mr. Vavra (04:20:16):
And what's your understanding of their relationship?
Colton Karr (04:20:19):
Childhood friends.
Mr. Vavra (04:20:22):
Do you see Andrew Griffin in the courtroom here today?
Colton Karr (04:20:25):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:20:25):
Can you stipulate he's identified him, Your Honor?
Judge (04:20:28):
The stipulation is so noted.
Mr. Vavra (04:20:33):
Did you ever have any direct conversation with Andrew or overhear him talking about his business up in Ohio, West Virginia area?
Colton Karr (04:20:42):
He's mentioned that he had business partners, but I never heard him say where.
Mr. Vavra (04:20:47):
And you know what the nature of the business was?
Colton Karr (04:20:50):
I believe a restaurant.
Mr. Vavra (04:20:54):
Was there a time around September of 2021 where you saw a motorcycle at... Is it your grandpa's house?
Colton Karr (04:21:04):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:21:04):
You saw a motorcycle out there?
Colton Karr (04:21:06):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:21:07):
Okay. And tell us what was going on when you saw this motorcycle.
Colton Karr (04:21:12):
Brett and Andrew were taking a windshield off and something else.
Mr. Vavra (04:21:21):
And do you recall anything specific about this motorcycle?
Colton Karr (04:21:25):
I just remember it was black and chrome.
Mr. Vavra (04:21:29):
Any accessories on it?
Colton Karr (04:21:31):
I think it had saddlebags.
Mr. Vavra (04:21:33):
And you mentioned a windshield already?
Colton Karr (04:21:33):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:21:33):
Did that bike interest you?
Colton Karr (04:21:40):
Yeah, they said something about getting rid of it and I've always wanted one. So I asked and they both told me that I didn't want no part of that one.
Mr. Vavra (04:21:51):
So you inquired, you asked about buying the bike?
Colton Karr (04:21:54):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:21:55):
And they, being Andrew and Brett?
Colton Karr (04:21:56):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:21:57):
Told you that you don't want any part of this bike?
Colton Karr (04:21:59):
Yep.
Mr. Vavra (04:22:00):
Did you pursue it further at that stage?
Colton Karr (04:22:02):
No.
Mr. Vavra (04:22:14):
Was there a time where you saw your brother with two cell phones?
Colton Karr (04:22:19):
Yes. I seen he had two phones in the house at one point.
Mr. Vavra (04:22:24):
What house was that at?
Colton Karr (04:22:27):
My grandpa's house.
Mr. Vavra (04:22:29):
Do you remember anything else about that?
Colton Karr (04:22:33):
No.
Mr. Vavra (04:22:34):
Did you ask him about it ever?
Colton Karr (04:22:36):
No.
Mr. Vavra (04:22:42):
Was there a time when you and your brother had a conversation about some murders in Ohio?
Colton Karr (04:22:49):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:22:50):
And do you recall where, when?
Mr. Shamansky (04:22:54):
Your Honor, object again. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you.
Judge (04:22:57):
We need to approach?
Mr. Shamansky (04:22:58):
No, same basis that... I mean, yeah.
Judge (04:23:01):
Okay.
Mr. Vavra (04:23:02):
Mr. Karr, this conversation with your brother, where were you when it was happening?
Colton Karr (04:23:10):
We was at my house.
Mr. Vavra (04:23:11):
And what was going on? What were the two of you up to?
Colton Karr (04:23:11):
We were just hanging out, drinking a couple beers.
Mr. Vavra (04:23:18):
So obviously he was not incarcerated at this point if he's at your house, right?
Colton Karr (04:23:22):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:23:24):
Did the two of you talk about the murders in Ohio?
Colton Karr (04:23:30):
Yes, he told me what happened.
Mr. Vavra (04:23:33):
What did your brother tell you?
Colton Karr (04:23:34):
It started with the motorcycle. He said Andrew drove it to Ohio, used a 22 revolver, if I remember right, and a killed man and a woman and burned their house. That's all I can remember.
Mr. Vavra (04:24:01):
Did he tell you what it was over or what the reason was?
Colton Karr (04:24:06):
Money.
Mr. Vavra (04:24:06):
Did he talk to you about any details about how many times?
Colton Karr (04:24:16):
If he did, I don't remember.
Mr. Vavra (04:24:20):
What was your brother's demeanor as he was telling you this?
Colton Karr (04:24:22):
Remorseful.
Mr. Vavra (04:24:24):
Why do you believe that?
Mr. Shamansky (04:24:25):
Objection to whether he believes anything, Your Honor.
Judge (04:24:30):
Can you lay a better foundation for his objection?
Mr. Vavra (04:24:35):
Yes.
Judge (04:24:36):
Proceed.
Mr. Vavra (04:24:39):
You two were drinking beer and just talking?
Colton Karr (04:24:43):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:24:44):
Let me ask you this. Did you express concern with what he was telling you?
Colton Karr (04:24:48):
Yes. I told him I didn't want to know and tried to make him quit talking, but he didn't.
Mr. Vavra (04:24:57):
And did you notice anything physically about him that made you think you said he was remorseful?
Colton Karr (04:25:05):
He was crying whenever he told me.
Mr. Vavra (04:25:13):
In September 2021, where was your wife working?
Colton Karr (04:25:17):
E-Z Mart.
Mr. Vavra (04:25:19):
Is that a Shell station in New York?
Colton Karr (04:25:21):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:25:21):
Is she working there now?
Colton Karr (04:25:21):
No.
Mr. Vavra (04:25:21):
Nothing else, Your Honor.
Judge (04:25:27):
Any cross-examination?
Mr. Shamansky (04:25:28):
No. Thank you, Your Honor.
Judge (04:25:30):
May this witness be excused?
Mr. Vavra (04:25:31):
Yes, Judge.
Judge (04:25:32):
Thank you, sir.
Colton Karr (04:25:32):
Thank you.
Judge (04:25:41):
Mr. Vavra, does that leave us with your last witness before Detective Allar?
Mr. Vavra (04:25:46):
Yes, Judge.
Judge (04:25:46):
Okay. Then ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we have an issue or two to address, so I'm going to ask you to go to the jury room. It's by hope that it won't be long and we'll get you back in here. So if you'll follow Mr. Gortz... We're back on the record in State of Ohio versus Andrew Griffin. Mr. Griffin is present in the courtroom with his counsel. State of Ohio is present, but we are outside the presence of the jury. Mr. Vavra, who is your next witness?
Mr. Vavra (04:26:13):
Dalton Ray.
Judge Christopher Berhalter (04:26:30):
Mr. Ray, raise your right hand, please. Do you swear the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dalton Ray (04:26:34):
Yes.
Mr. Vavra (04:26:41):
Mr. Ray, will you state your full name for the record?
Dalton Ray (04:26:43):
Dalton Ray.
Mr. Vavra (04:26:44):
Thank you, sir.
Judge (04:26:46):
Mr. Vavra, you have subpoenaed him or brought Mr. Ray to testify. What will the state be seeking to ask him?
Mr. Vavra (04:26:56):
Judge, as you are aware, having sat here through the course of the trial, his name comes up multiple times by multiple witnesses. As well as a picture of him being a part of this. We believe that he has information and can testify as to knowledge that he had around September 13, 2021 regarding a trip to Texas to purchase a motorcycle that the state believes was involved in this. We also have information that we believe he became aware of the details or at least some of the details of what the plan was for this to occur. That he was physically present with Brett Cole at the time that these events played out. Knew that Mr. Cole was in Oklahoma and had Mr. Griffin's cell phone. And also that prior to leaving Mr. Griffin's property in Whitesboro, he and Mr. Cole disposed of some ammunition that was given to Mr. Cole by Mr. Griffin. So we believe that he has a lot of information regarding the planning and carrying out of these events because of the interactions and experiences with Brett Cole and Andrew Griffin.
Judge (04:28:12):
Do you believe him testifying would further the administration of justice?
Mr. Vavra (04:28:15):
Yes, Judge.
Judge (04:28:16):
Thank you. Mr. Ray, I've appointed you counsel, correct?
Dalton Ray (04:28:21):
Yes, sir.
Judge (04:28:21):
An attorney, Logan Graham, right?
Dalton Ray (04:28:24):
Yes.
Judge (04:28:25):
Have you had an opportunity to meet with him?
Dalton Ray (04:28:27):
Yes.
Judge (04:28:29):
Have you had an opportunity for him to explain to you your Fifth Amendment right?
Dalton Ray (04:28:32):
Yes.
Judge (04:28:34):
All right. Do you have any questions at all about that right or what it entails?
Dalton Ray (04:28:39):
No.
Judge (04:28:40):
So you understand that no one can force you to testify about any crimes you had any part in based on the Fifth Amendment. You understand that?
Dalton Ray (04:28:48):
Yes.
Judge (04:28:49):
But do you understand there is an exception and there's a statute 2945.44 that if the State of Ohio grants you transactional immunity, you lose that Fifth Amendment right. Do you understand that?
Dalton Ray (04:29:04):
Yes.
Judge (04:29:05):
And you had an opportunity to go through that with your attorney?
Dalton Ray (04:29:08):
Yes.
Judge (04:29:11):
And do you understand then if that's the route this goes, if you want to assert your Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination and the state seeks this court to grant you immunity. And if I do that and you refuse to testify, that is continue to exert your Fifth Amendment right. Then you understand I could find you in contempt. And by finding you in contempt, I could sentence you to additional term of incarceration. And additionally, that immunity grant would be revoked. And if the state of Ohio believes that you were culpable enough in these murders, could indict you for the same. Do you understand everything I've said?
Dalton Ray (04:29:53):
Yes, sir.
Judge (04:29:54):
Does that cause you to have any questions where you want to speak to your attorney again?
Dalton Ray (04:30:00):
No.
Judge (04:30:01):
Okay. No questions at all? You understand everything I've stated?
Colton Karr (04:30:06):
Yes.
Judge (04:30:07):
All right. You heard Mr. Vavra from the State of Ohio in regards to the questions he seeks to ask you, that is your involvement in the planning of the murders of Tom and Angela Strussion. Will you answer those questions or will you be asserting your Fifth Amendment rights?
Colton Karr (04:30:29):
I plead the Fifth.
Judge (04:30:29):
All right. Mr. Vavra?
Mr. Vavra (04:30:36):
Thank you, Judge. The state at this time is filing what would be state's motion queue in this matter, requesting that the court grant Mr. Ray transactional immunity and require him to testify.
Judge (04:30:51):
Is that being brought over now?
Mr. Vavra (04:30:55):
Yes. Detective Borman just went to file it with the clerk's office and-
Mr. Shamansky (04:30:59):
And we'll stipulate for purposes of the record that it's filed and meets the requirements of statutes explained to me by Professor Vavra.
Judge (04:31:09):
So your request is in writing?
Mr. Vavra (04:31:11):
It is, Judge. It was just filed. Copies were provided to defense counsel as well as to Attorney Graham.
Mr. Shamansky (04:31:16):
Yeah, we have that, Judge. We've reviewed it.
Judge (04:31:18):
Okay. And Mr. Ray, I want to be clear with you. Transactional immunity is not just immunity from anything you state. That is, it's not an immunity where they can't use your words against you. It's that and they can never seek to prosecute you for what you're testifying about, those crimes. So do you understand it's both?
Dalton Ray (04:31:41):
Yes, sir.
Judge (04:31:44):
Okay. So with the state asking this court to grant you transactional immunity and with this court making the finding that it would further the administration of justice, I am granting that request. So you have been granted transactional immunity to testify in this trial. You understand what that means?
Dalton Ray (04:32:05):
Yes.
Judge (04:32:06):
And with that transaction or with that granting of transactional immunity, are you willing to testify?
Dalton Ray (04:32:18):
I want to plead the Fifth. I don't want to answer his question.
Judge (04:32:20):
Then you understand you're going to leave me no choice but to make a finding that you are in contempt of court. Do you understand that?
Dalton Ray (04:32:26):
Yes.
Judge (04:32:28):
Court's going to make that finding. You will have till the conclusion of this case to purge yourself from that contempt. That is, if you change your mind before closing begins, that is this trial still occurring and agree to testify, there will be no further finding of contempt. I will not impose any term of incarceration. Do you understand how you can purge your contempt?
Dalton Ray (04:32:53):
Yes.
Judge (04:32:53):
Did you say yes?
Dalton Ray (04:32:55):
Yes.
Judge (04:32:56):
All right. If you decide not to purge your contempt, there's going to be a holder placed on you. You're going to be returned back to the penitentiary. Upon the completion of that sentence in the penitentiary, based on that holder, you're going to be brought back to this court and I will impose a sentence for the contempt. Do you understand that as well?
Dalton Ray (04:33:18):
Yes, sir.
Judge (04:33:21):
Mr. Vavra, does state have anything to add?
Mr. Vavra (04:33:23):
No, Judge.
Judge (04:33:25):
Mr. Shamansky?
Mr. Shamansky (04:33:26):
Nothing. Thank you, sir.
Judge (04:33:28):
Based on the fact that Mr. Ray has until the conclusion of this trial to purge his contempt, I am going to request to the deputies that he remain in the Belmont County Jail until such time as this trial is concluded, then he can be transported back. I believe it's Noble Country. And Mr. Graham, I did not mean to ignore you. You were appointed to represent Mr. Ray in this matter. He advised you did take the opportunity to explain to him all the matters I undertook to explain to him as well. Do you have anything to add?
Logan Graham (04:34:04):
No, Your Honor.
Judge (04:34:05):
Okay. Then this witness may be released and returned to the Belmont County Jail.
Mr. Shamansky (04:34:09):
[inaudible 04:34:12].
Mr. Vavra (04:34:16):
Whatever he prefers.
Mr. Shamansky (04:34:20):
Either way is fine. Your Honor, in speaking with Mr. Vavra, neither of us mind if you want to excuse the jury from the jury room without bringing him back in.
Judge (04:34:32):
It'll be quick.
Mr. Shamansky (04:34:33):
Whatever you want to do.
Judge (04:34:34):
I'm the broken record with the final instruction for the day.
Mr. Shamansky (04:34:37):
That's cool.
Judge (04:34:38):
All right. Mr. Gortz, if you'll bring back in after Mr. Ray is removed from the court. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I appreciate your patience. We had an issue we needed to address. At this point, the parties have decided this is a good place to stop for the day. So we're going to resume, need you back here at 8:45 AM tomorrow, and I'll repeat hopefully for the final time to you all, do not have any discussions with anyone about this case. Do not allow a discussion to occur in front of you about this case. Do not watch any stories in any media forum on this case. And of course, that includes online. Do not do any additional research on this case at home and do not post anything about this case online or any platform. With that said, appreciate everyone's attentiveness here today. Have a good evening. We'll see you by 8:45 AM tomorrow. We are outside the presence of the jury. Any issues the state of Ohio needs to address?
Mr. Vavra (04:35:43):
No, Judge.
Judge (04:35:44):
Mr. Shamansky?
Mr. Shamansky (04:35:45):
No. Thank you, sir.
Judge (04:35:47):
Looking at the state's last witness tomorrow, you all have received from this court on Friday the proposed charge and the verdict forms. We will have a discussion at the conclusion of that last witness. And then during lunchtime, if there's any suggested changes, that is addition, subtractions from the parties, we'll have time to make those. So please review those and be prepared to discuss that tomorrow morning.
Mr. Shamansky (04:36:10):
And Your Honor, with the court's permission, Don in our office is-
Speaker 11 (04:36:17):
He's given them to me, but they're the minor.
Mr. Shamansky (04:36:18):
Oh, they're just little minor piddly changes. We're good.
Judge (04:36:20):
All right. Then we can address those tomorrow.
Mr. Shamansky (04:36:22):
Yep, yep.
Judge (04:36:22):
Okay. With that said, the court will be in recess until tomorrow morning.
Mr. Shamansky (04:36:26):
Thank you.
Judge (04:36:26):
I'll see everybody here at 8:30.
Mr. Shamansky (04:36:27):
Thank you, sir.
Mr. Vavra (04:36:28):
Thank you.
