Dec 3, 2020
Trump Lawyers Rudy Giuliani & Jenna Ellis Testify Before Michigan House Oversight Committee: Full Transcript
Donald Trump’s attorneys Rudy Giuliani and Jenna Ellis testified before the Michigan legislature on December 2, 2020. Giuliani urged the lawmakers to “take back your power” and disregard certified election results that show Joe Biden winning. They also brought in several witnesses who testified. Read the full transcript here.
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Chair Hall: (15:08)
All right, the House Oversight Committee will come to order. Would the clerk please take attendance?
Chair Hall: (15:14)
Representative Riley: (15:15)
S. Johnson: (15:18)
Schroeder? C. A. Johnson?
C.A. Johnson: (15:22)
Chair Hall: (15:26)
All right, thank you. Vice-chair Riley makes a motion to adopt the minutes from the September 10th, 2020 committee. Without objection, the minutes are adopted. Vice-chair Riley makes a motion to adopt the minutes from the November 7th, 2020 committee. Without objection, the minutes are adopted. Vice-chair Riley makes a motion to adopt the minutes from the November 19th, 2020 committee. Without objection, the minutes are adopted. We haven’t adopted our minutes for a while guys.
Chair Hall: (15:59)
So all right. I don’t think we have any absent members, do we? One? Okay. So I’ll make a motion right now to excuse absent members. Without objection, the absent members will be excused from today’s meeting. All right. That’s all that we got that out of the way. So I’m Matt Hall. I’m Chairman of the House Oversight Committee here in Michigan. We’ve been tasked by Speaker Chatfield to look into elections here in Michigan. Some of this, we did before the election, actually, with an audit from the Auditor General about absentee, about our elections, about people on the voter rolls, who weren’t supposed to be there, and a process on how to remove them.
Chair Hall: (16:47)
And we’ve been working through that. We’ve been working through this audit that found that there were people who weren’t trained that were administering elections. And we’ve worked together in a bipartisan way to remove, to pass laws, to publicize that they need to post. We’re going to publicize the people who don’t do their training. Because I think they need training and we had the Antrum County clerk in and it’s clear she needs a lot of training. Trust me. So we got that going.
Chair Hall: (17:17)
So we worked together there. We brought in clerks from different counties across Michigan to hear from them about how we can improve our election processes in our state. You probably know our last election was the first time in a general election that we had Proposal 3. And Proposal 3 led to widespread absentee voting in our state. And that is something we need to evaluate.
Chair Hall: (17:43)
That’s very much within the role of an oversight committee, is to look at how these laws are working. So we’ve done that. We’ve listened to Republican and Democrat clerks to hear their ideas on how we can improve our laws. Moving forward. We’ve issued subpoenas to our Secretary of State. You probably know that millions and millions of these mailings went out to people, unsolicited absentee ballot applications. And I got calls and emails from people who say that “This person died. This person moved out of state 10 years ago.”
Chair Hall: (18:21)
But yet, they got these applications. And so we took a pretty much unprecedented step to issue subpoenas in order to get to the bottom of how this list was created. Why did they send this? So we can look at that and we can improve moving forward. So that’s been a lot of the role of this committee. Citizens have serious concerns about the election in Michigan. They’ve expressed that concern to myself and other legislators. We’ve received thousands of phone calls and emails.
Chair Hall: (18:54)
Elections must be trustworthy and accurate. That includes access and transparency for observers, correct tabulations, and proper checks to ensure votes are legally classed. Citizens become frustrated and demand answers when a large number of precinct tabulations don’t reconcile, or when an election observers for one party feel they were treated unfairly, or when an independent audit is not performed. Elections are the cornerstone of our system of government and we have a responsibility as legislators to ensure trust in voting results. Mr. Giuliani will be coming before our committee today. He’s expressed concerns with how Michigan conducted its elections and he’s President Trump’s personal attorney. This hearing allows the people of Michigan to go straight to Mr. Giuliani to evaluate evidence presented by him and get answers that that we’re seeking. We’ll also be able to talk to people who have firsthand experience with alleged voter fraud in our state. And we want to hear their stories. We want people to listen to those and an opportunity to ask questions and to learn more about those things.
Chair Hall: (20:08)
And then ultimately, we can make a decision about whether it’s true fraud or not. But we have to have these discussions. When certifying the election results, Michigan’s Board of Canvassers is made up of two Democrats and two Republicans. They unanimously asked this legislature to look into issues that have arisen from this election and to hear public testimony. The Board of Canvassers in a bipartisan vote earlier requested the Secretary of State demand processes are better followed in Detroit.
Chair Hall: (20:40)
We are fulfilling the Board’s request by holding this hearing. And we will request the Secretary of State improve election when problems are found. So I hope today’s hearing will be constructive as we examine our state’s election system and work to reestablish trust. I feel strongly that our democracy depends on discussions like the one we’re about to have today. With that, I’d like to welcome up Mr. Giuliani and Jenna Ellis, the attorneys for President Trump. Yeah. That’s right. There’s one there. And wherever you want to sit.
Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chair Hall: (21:24)
Hold on. Do you have a point of order?
Yes I do, Mr. Chairman.
Chair Hall: (21:26)
What’s your point of order?
I would like to ask Mr. Giuliani to please stand and raise your right hand.
Chair Hall: (21:31)
That’s not a point of order.
Please be sworn before this committee.
Chair Hall: (21:33)
That’s not a point of order. Please stop.
Chair Hall: (21:35)
You’re out of line. You’re out of order.
Chair Hall: (21:36)
Do you have a point or order?
Yes I do, Mr. Chairman.
Chair Hall: (21:41)
What’s your point of order?
Under the law, I have the right before this committee as a representative to swear any witness before this committee to uphold the law. That is my right.
Chair Hall: (21:50)
I’m not going to allow that.
It’s my right as a representative-
Chair Hall: (21:52)
Well then, Mr. Chair, I appeal the rule of the Chair. And I’d like to ask the committee to please take a vote on this ruling because it is my right as a representative to make sure that anybody before this committee is truthful, and we have the right as members to swear anybody.
Chair Hall: (22:09)
All right. Then let’s call the roll.
Speaker 1: (22:10)
Point of order, Mr. Chairman.
Chair Hall: (22:12)
Speaker 1: (22:13)
Point of order, Mr. Chairman. A motion to swear a witness in requires a vote of this committee.
No, it does not.
Chair Hall: (22:21)
All right. We’re going to… Yeah. All right. We’re going to go at ease.
That’s fine. Let’s just do it. You ready? We’ll take. Okay. And can I speak to it? And what order?
Chair Hall: (23:07)
All right. All right, so you called the roll on the motion, which is to appeal the ruling of the Chair.
As a motion to appeal the ruling of the Chair, Chair Hall?
Chair Hall: (23:17)
Representative Riley: (23:19)
S. Johnson: (23:22)
C.A. Johnson: (23:26)
Mr. Chair, you have three yays, five days, and no pass. With that, the ruling of the Chair stands.
Chair Hall: (23:36)
All right. So with that, Mr. Giuliani, please proceed with your testimony. And Jenna Ellis as well. We want to hear you, and we’ll call up witnesses after that. Thank you.
Rudy Giuliani: (23:53)
Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, it’s my understanding that I’m here in my capacity as an attorney, not as a witness. If you want to question me as a witness, that’s a different matter. But also, I’m an attorney for the President. Ethically, I don’t know what that would mean if you turn me into a witness.
Chair Hall: (24:09)
Yeah. You’re here to testify. I mean, no one’s under oath. This is like any committee hearing, sir, where we’re just taking testimony from members of the public to talk about what happened here in the election.
Rudy Giuliani: (24:23)
Because my understanding from appearing before Congress many times is when I appear in the role as a lawyer, I’m not under oath. When I appear as a witness, I am under oath.
Chair Hall: (24:32)
Yeah. And sir-
Rudy Giuliani: (24:33)
If I appear as a attorney for someone and it’s a case involving them, it would be unethical for me to be a witness.
Chair Hall: (24:41)
Yeah. And in sir, here in Michigan, we don’t administer oaths people who testify. It’s almost unprecedented in this legislature.
It is our right, to be clear though, to do so.
Chair Hall: (24:52)
You’re out of order.
Rudy Giuliani: (24:53)
I’m sorry. I’m going to be very brief because I have a number of witnesses. And the whole purpose of asking for this hearing is because for four weeks, five weeks, six weeks, all we heard is that there were unsubstantiated allegations of fraud. It began as unfounded allegations of fraud. Then it became unsubstantiated allegations of fraud. Then it became allegations of fraud, but not big enough to overturn an election. And then it became allegations of fraud that really couldn’t be completely investigated between now and the election, but are going to require a substantial investigation after the inauguration.
Rudy Giuliani: (25:35)
So it’s changed a great deal. But in that period of time, no one’s bothered to look at the evidence. No one’s bothered to listen to the witnesses. I’m not a witness. I didn’t witness any of this. Everything I’m presenting to you, I’, presenting to you as a lawyer. These are the words of other people. And in your case, in the state of Michigan, people who are citizens of your state, who observed fraud. And I must say, observed fraud on what I would consider, I would also consider myself an expert on, prosecuting fraud. I would consider a massive amount of evidence.
Rudy Giuliani: (26:13)
What I’m holding in my hand are affidavits. These are sworn under oath. They have the power of evidence that’s been sworn under oath. These are the things on which you bring indictments, and they allege massive cheating, particularly on the part of the Democrat party of Detroit, to the extent of easily 500,000, 600,000, 700,000 illegal votes calculated many different ways. The second part of the case is an analysis of the voting machine that you used in much of the state, I believe much of the state, not all. Dominion, which broke down in Antrum County, that alerted people to take a look at it. And lo and behold, it became a tremendous surprise to the people of America.
Rudy Giuliani: (27:07)
Did you want me to disclose it? I’m sorry. It was a very big surprise to me that our votes are sent out of the United States. It’s also a big surprise to me that our votes are counted by a foreign company. And it’s even a bigger surprise to me that if you do the slightest bit of due diligence, you will find out that this company has been in trouble many, many times, was just disqualified in the state of Texas. Under another name, was thrown out of Chicago. In its infancy, had ties with Hugo Chavez, Venezuela, conducted fraudulent elections in two South American countries, and have been disqualified in several other countries and states.
Rudy Giuliani: (27:53)
It appears as if whoever your elections officials are selected this without the slightest bit of even Googling the company. Where if you did, you would find out that it’s considered to be the most insecure voting machine available to us, and has resulted in enormously terrible problems. I’d like to put into the record a letter written by my Congresswoman many years ago, Carolyn Maloney, who pointed out all of the problems with this company, Dominion. I’d also put in the record letters from Elizabeth Warren and somebody else that I can’t remember right now, but another United States Senator.
Rudy Giuliani: (28:42)
I have no idea what you were doing with this company. And one of the things I would suggest is you take a good look at just how you came about taking on a company that has this terrible record. We’ve had occasion to examine now the machine that faltered, we have preliminary data on how it can be invaded. We would need to examine the rest of the machines. And if we did, we could probably tell you, to some degree of certainty, exactly how many votes were changed, the formula by which they were changed, and if they were directed overseas. Because there were some indications that the vote was being sent to Frankfurt, Germany, or to Barcelona to a company called Cytal. That’s a brief overview, but I think I would rather start because this woman… I was just asked the indulgence of the committee. Ms. Jacob is a very, very fine woman. She’s never testified before. She is exceedingly concerned for many reasons, and if everybody could just be courteous and questioning her I would really appreciate it.
Chair Hall: (29:54)
All right. Thank you.
Rudy Giuliani: (29:54)
I’d like to call Jesse Jacob.
Chair Hall: (29:56)
All right, Mr. Mayor. And just to be clear, I didn’t say this before, the way we’re going to run this format. My goal is to be done by 9:00. That’s about three hours. We might go a few minutes over since I came in late. That’s the goal. We’re going to allow each witness to come up. And at that point, we’ll allow members of the committee to ask a question. The question has to be germane to the topic. This is about the Michigan elections. Okay? I’ll allow one question per member. No followups. One question. Okay? That’s how we’re going to do it for each witness.
Chair Hall: (30:32)
And that’s because of the shenanigans, I was going to allow a little leeway, but I’m not now. All right? We’re going to do one question for witness. We’re going to go through each one. I call them witnesses, but people who are testifying here. And then lastly, at the end, Mr. Giuliani will take those questions. That’s how we’re going to do it. So I understand Jesse Jacobs is first?
Rudy Giuliani: (30:54)
Correct. Could I have Jenna say a word or two?
Chair Hall: (30:57)
Yes, of course. Why don’t you go ahead?
Jenna Ellis: (31:00)
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the committee. And I appreciate your calling this session, Mr. Chairman, and that we have members that are both Democrats and Republicans here. But you’re all here in your capacity as legislators. And this is not a political question, this is a legal one. When you have a, what you will see before you, a substantial evidence of fraud and corruption in an election, it’s your obligation under the United States constitution to not allow the corruption to continue.
Jenna Ellis: (31:33)
And under Article 2, Section 1.2, the state legislators are the entity that our founders specifically vested with the authority to ensure against a corrupt popular vote. So at the end of the evidence and the testimony that we present today, we are going to be asking you to take action on this. You’ve already heard from a number of witnesses and other people and evidence over the past day and a half.
Jenna Ellis: (32:03)
I would ask you all to put aside your party affiliation and look openly and honestly at these witnesses and this evidence, because here we’re all Americans. And our founders specifically provided this tool, the state legislature, to be able to combat corruption or foreign influence when that happens in an election. We sit before you today on behalf of the president of the United States. But as he said today in a speech from the White House, it’s his sworn duty and obligation to sure that election integrity and free and fair elections are preserved in this country.
Jenna Ellis: (32:44)
And we will be asking you after taking a look at the testimony presented today to take that oath that you have made as state legislators very, very seriously. The law is on your side because the US Constitution is on your side. And we would be happy to answer any questions about that at the end of this proceeding, but thank you very much for your time and attention today.
Chair Hall: (33:09)
Thank you. And there will be questions about that, I assure you. Are we ready for Ms. Jacobs? All right, please, Ms. Jacobs, when you’re ready, come forward. Welcome to the House Oversight Committee. And when you sit down, you push the red button there. That’ll turn on the microphone and you can speak. And just to be clear, you speak. When you’re done, we’ll allow one question per member, but we’re not going to interrupt you. So I just want everyone to be cognizant of the fact our goal is to be done a little after 9:00. So welcome and thank you for coming here today to tell your story.
Rudy Giuliani: (33:55)
With Ms. Jacob is her husband. Your full name is?
Sanmi Jacob: (34:00)
Rudy Giuliani: (34:02)
And your full name is?
Jesse Jacob: (34:03)
Rudy Giuliani: (34:03)
And your full name is?
Jesse Jacob: (34:03)
Rudy Giuliani: (34:05)
And Jesse, you’re a resident of Detroit?
Jesse Jacob: (34:08)
Yes, I am.
Rudy Giuliani: (34:09)
And you were born in India, is that correct?
Jesse Jacob: (34:11)
Yes, I am.
Rudy Giuliani: (34:12)
And you came to the US in 1985?
Jesse Jacob: (34:15)
Rudy Giuliani: (34:15)
And you and your husband became United States citizens?
Jesse Jacob: (34:18)
Yes. In 1995.
Rudy Giuliani: (34:20)
And how many children do you have Jesse?
Jesse Jacob: (34:22)
Rudy Giuliani: (34:23)
How old are they?
Jesse Jacob: (34:23)
The older one is 36 and the second one is 32. And the third one is 24.
Rudy Giuliani: (34:31)
And what do they do?
Jesse Jacob: (34:33)
The older one, she’s my oldest daughter, she’s practicing in the emergency medicine, physician in Washington, DC since 2014. Yes.
Rudy Giuliani: (34:50)
And your son?
Jesse Jacob: (34:53)
My son, he’s doing his fellowship in child and adolescent psychiatry at the Dallas Southwestern University Medical Center.
Rudy Giuliani: (35:06)
And your youngest daughter?
Jesse Jacob: (35:09)
She’s a third year med school student at Wayne State.
Rudy Giuliani: (35:12)
Congratulations. So let’s get right to it. On September… You’ve been an employee of the City of Detroit for many, many years. Is that correct?
Jesse Jacob: (35:22)
That is true.
Rudy Giuliani: (35:23)
Approximately how long?
Jesse Jacob: (35:24)
Since 1986, August.
Rudy Giuliani: (35:26)
Do you have the title of Head Engineer?
Jesse Jacob: (35:30)
Yeah, that’s my current title.
Rudy Giuliani: (35:32)
And on September 8th you were assigned to election duties, were you not?
Jesse Jacob: (35:37)
That is true.
Rudy Giuliani: (35:40)
And you were assigned to the third floor of the election department.
Jesse Jacob: (35:42)
Fourth floor, the fourth floor election department at West Grand Boulevard location.
Rudy Giuliani: (35:50)
And what were you told you were supposed to do?
Jesse Jacob: (35:53)
The first day, basically we were all, it was about… Let me see how many people. About 40 to 60 people on that floor. First day we were given all kinds of instructions, how this training is going to be. And then in the afternoon we started opening the mails that was received to the headquarters. That is the mail for application for absentee ballot request. So basically, that’s what we were doing the whole first week starting from September 8.
Jesse Jacob: (36:34)
I started a 9:00 AM. It was 9:00 to 4:00 PM. So then, the group was working from 9 to 4, opening the mails, sorting out the mails. And we were asked to sort out according to the counting board, 134 counting boards. So, there are 134 counting boxes set up so you can sort out the applications that you have opened.
Rudy Giuliani: (37:07)
Did there come a time, Ms. Jacob, in about the third week of September when you were asked to change date?
Jesse Jacob: (37:20)
I think around September 20th or 22nd… I will say 22nd, third week of September, we were kind of started packing, making the ballot packages to be sent to different citizens. And what we do is, we will do for different counting boards, 50 applications will be there. So, you will be making packages of 50 ballots. And on the floor, they will let you know what they need to be put on that package, the mailing date for that ballot. So, I noticed time-to-time basically every day, whenever you prepare that package, the ballot package is always either backdate three days. Not the same day, always days before that date.
Rudy Giuliani: (38:21)
So, starting on the 20th of September-
Jesse Jacob: (38:25)
Rudy Giuliani: (38:26)
22nd, 22nd of September.
Jesse Jacob: (38:27)
Rudy Giuliani: (38:28)
For some days thereafter, each day, you were given different date in order to back date.
Jesse Jacob: (38:35)
Rudy Giuliani: (38:35)
The application. Is that right?
Jesse Jacob: (38:36)
Rudy Giuliani: (38:40)
And it was a different date each day?
Jesse Jacob: (38:42)
Sometimes you use the same date, maybe consecutive days, maybe you will use the same date, but it was different.
Rudy Giuliani: (38:50)
But it was never the correct date.
Jesse Jacob: (38:52)
It never been the same day, the day you are preparing the package.
Rudy Giuliani: (38:56)
In other words, it was a false statement.
Jesse Jacob: (38:57)
Yes. It was a date prior to that date that you are preparing that-
Rudy Giuliani: (39:03)
Who told you to do that?
Jesse Jacob: (39:05)
Who was the supervisor on the floor that day.
Rudy Giuliani: (39:10)
Was it one supervisor, or more than one supervisor who told you to backdate it every day?
Jesse Jacob: (39:19)
There were more than one supervisor, not just one. More than one. So, I would say one, two, three supervisors.
Rudy Giuliani: (39:32)
How long did you have that position? You left that position after a short while.
Jesse Jacob: (39:40)
Rudy Giuliani: (39:41)
Can you tell us how long you held that position?
Jesse Jacob: (39:43)
Yeah. I worked at the fourth floor of the election department until October 2nd. That’s a Friday. September 30th, I was sent for training for the QBF trainings. September 30th and October 1st I was at training. Then, October 2nd was my last day working at the election headquarters. And from October 5th onwards, I was asked to work as a processor at one of the satellite sites out of 23 satellite sites. First, I was sent to Carmel recreation center at Lusher and Six Mile. And then I was asked to go to Coleman A. Young Recreation center at Bradbury Drive near downtown from October 12th.
Rudy Giuliani: (40:38)
Up until the time you left, how many coworkers did you have when you were backdating the documents?
Jesse Jacob: (40:46)
You mean at the election headquarters?
Rudy Giuliani: (40:48)
Yes, at the original place that you worked.
Jesse Jacob: (40:54)
Okay. I think about around September 15th or so, they started the second shift. Until then, it was only from nine to four, one shift. Then they started another shift from five to 11. So, two shifts. So, I would say if you add all of them, let me see. I would say around 80.
Rudy Giuliani: (41:18)
About 80 workers.
Jesse Jacob: (41:20)
Rudy Giuliani: (41:20)
And to your knowledge, were they all instructed exactly like you were to falsify the document?
Jesse Jacob: (41:26)
Yes. When they were preparing the ballots to be sent, the ballot package.
Rudy Giuliani: (41:31)
So, the ballot package had a false date on it when it was sent out. Deliberately.
Jesse Jacob: (41:35)
I mean, what basically is, that date that you put on that ballot package, that will be entered until we have asked the ballot mailing date that’s what it is. The…
Rudy Giuliani: (41:50)
And then the law requires doesn’t it? Correct me, because you know it much better than I do, that within 24 hours of your receiving the application, you have to respond. Is that correct?
Jesse Jacob: (42:01)
Yeah. Per the state of Michigan’s official manual, you are required to issue a ballot within 24 hours of the application request. That’s what I read in the Michigan officials manual, chapter six. That’s why it is certain. So, I don’t know. Even when I was preparing the package in the third week of September, I even saw applications from June, July, August. So-
Rudy Giuliani: (42:36)
And what happened to the June, July and August applications? Were they dated differently?
Jesse Jacob: (42:42)
No, no. The citizens’ applications, the day citizen submitted that application, it was from June, July, August. But we were preparing the ballots in September after two, three months later.
Rudy Giuliani: (42:56)
So, during the period of time you were there doing it, which you estimated was about 10 days, would you say that about a hundred thousand false documents were created?
Jesse Jacob: (43:08)
Yeah, From September 22nd, I would say, till September 30th. Yeah. About 10 days. I mean, I was there till October 2nd.
Rudy Giuliani: (43:19)
You estimated, when we went over this about 10,000 a day in ten days.
Jesse Jacob: (43:23)
Yeah, anywhere between 10,000 to 15. Yeah. Sometimes we will be able to complete, I even remember 14,000 packages. Sometimes it’s 12,000. So, you can just to be on the safe side, you can say 10,000 per day. That’s a good number.
Rudy Giuliani: (43:45)
And just before we leave this, would your supervisor say this to all of you publicly? in other words, he would say “Today, the date we’re going to use is, whatever.”
Jesse Jacob: (43:55)
This date. Yes. Yep. [inaudible 00:43:57]
Rudy Giuliani: (43:58)
In other words, you had the phony date of the day.
Jesse Jacob: (43:59)
Yes. That’s an announcement they will make. Yes. On the floor. Yes.
Rudy Giuliani: (44:06)
Then, You were transferred and you went for training.
Jesse Jacob: (44:12)
Yeah. On September 30th, from nine to 11:30 AM, and then also on October 1st. Those are the two days I was sent for training at Wayne County community college from nine to 11:30 morning session. Then after noon, you will come back to the election headquarters.
Rudy Giuliani: (44:31)
What do you remember of your training? What were you told during the training?
Jesse Jacob: (44:36)
It was not good.
Rudy Giuliani: (44:39)
It was not good?
Jesse Jacob: (44:41)
Rudy Giuliani: (44:42)
Well, how wasn’t it good?
Jesse Jacob: (44:45)
I mean, first of all, when I was at the Wayne County community college from nine to 11:30, it’s about, I would say around 20 to 25 people. There are two groups. So, I was with the second group. The first group training was from September 28 and 29. First group. I am in the second group, September 30th and October 1st, about, I would say around 20, 25 people in each group. But what I found out when I went there, I tried to log into one of the laptop. It was not working. Then I tried another one. It was not working. So, we had problems with the laptops. I couldn’t even log into the system. So, I was told by the instructor, “just listen, just listen. You don’t need a laptop.” Okay. So basically, we were just some, I would say at least a of 20, 25.
Rudy Giuliani: (45:40)
And you have a tape recording of this, don’t you? That you don’t want to share because you don’t want the person who said this hurt. Is that correct?
Jesse Jacob: (45:51)
Yeah. So, what I did was, since I didn’t have a laptop, I didn’t have nothing in front of me. I asked the instructor, “Can I record your lecture?” Because from October 5th, I have to be by myself. I have to work as a processor. So, I want to learn something. So I asked the instructor, “Can I record your lecture?” She said, “Sure, you can. You can record.” So, we had permission. I recorded the lecture.
Rudy Giuliani: (46:20)
So, when we listened to it last night, did the instructor from the city of Detroit tell you, “It doesn’t matter if the address is wrong or the birth date is missing, or there are no names. You must try and find a birth date. And if the signatures look different, find something about them that’s the same. No application should be rejected.” Is that the sum and substance of what… Was it a she or he?
Jesse Jacob: (46:53)
It’s a she.
Rudy Giuliani: (46:55)
Is that what the female told you?
Jesse Jacob: (46:57)
In a nutshell, that’s what basically…. You have to do everything to make sure that voter should get a ballot and vote.
Rudy Giuliani: (47:12)
Even if the address was wrong?
Jesse Jacob: (47:16)
See, sometimes when the voters walk in, they just give you the house number and the street name. But you have different ways to… You can search the voter in different ways. You can locate the voter. Sometimes you are lucky. You will be able to find everything for that voter. Then you can process the ballot. But that won’t be the case for everybody.
Rudy Giuliani: (47:41)
Suppose you can’t find everything for that person. What do you do then?
Jesse Jacob: (47:47)
The instructor sometimes tell you, “you should set aside that application. And we will send that application back to the election headquarters, let them take care of it.”
Rudy Giuliani: (47:56)
And when you did that, what happened to it?
Jesse Jacob: (47:58)
I don’t know what happened after that. I don’t know. It was sent. And I was also instructed, with regard to how to verify the signatures, you have to do everything so that the signatures… You have to match it.
Rudy Giuliani: (48:16)
Well, during the time that you worked there, which should be about a month. Except for you, did you ever see any other application rejected as deficient?
Jesse Jacob: (48:28)
Rudy Giuliani: (48:29)
Didn’t you see people that came up to you that you rejected, that went to someone else and then they accepted that person?
Jesse Jacob: (48:38)
See, the location where I was working, I remember a few times. I would say the first two weeks from October 5th, the first week is October 5th. As the first day, the early voting started at satellite locations. Then second week of October 12th, daily, I would say the first week we had about eight, nine voters all day from nine to six. Then second week, maybe about 15, but the third week and the last week of October, we had more. And I remember two or three times. Yeah. I had to reject, I think on two or three occasions, to reject the ballot. And they were so angry. And they were so angry and they will sometimes call you all kinds of name or, “you are saying I cannot vote? You don’t count my ballot?” And things like that. And I will say, “I’m so sorry. I cannot do it.”
Jesse Jacob: (49:44)
And I would ask my supervisor what to do. And then supervisor will say “You know, Jesse, I don’t know.” You know what? He will say, “Oh, I have other places I will go vote.” Then he will just walk out. So, I don’t know whether he went to the nearest one. You can go to any location. There are 23 satellite locations. You can go to any of the satellite locations.
Rudy Giuliani: (50:12)
Jesse Jacob: (50:12)
Rudy Giuliani: (50:14)
I don’t want you to do this if you feel uncomfortable, but would you be comfortable taking a mask off so that people could hear you more clearly?
Jesse Jacob: (50:21)
Can you hear me now?
Rudy Giuliani: (50:23)
Can everyone hear clearly?
We can hear you.
Rudy Giuliani: (50:27)
Okay. Now, the supervisor you originally had when you first were there, did you observe her coaching voters to vote for Biden in the Democrat ticket?
Jesse Jacob: (50:47)
Rudy Giuliani: (50:49)
And then as it got closer to the election, in fact, in the day or two before the election, were others of the workers there helping people to vote for Biden and the democratic ticket and even going into the little booth with them?
Jesse Jacob: (51:06)
Yeah, I remember on November 2nd, specifically, that’s the last day of absentee voter. Yeah, November 2nd, 4:00 PM. That’s the deadline. So, that day we had lots of people coming to the center. And I remember, let me be honest with you. I don’t remember that person’s name, but he was working as a ballot runner and he was going to the polling booth and standing by the side of the voter and helping them to complete the ballot, assisting the voter. I was really concerned, but I didn’t say anything. I don’t know whether my supervisor saw that. She was in the room, but he was doing that.
Rudy Giuliani: (51:59)
Did you find that wrong or unacceptable?
Jesse Jacob: (52:03)
I knew it is wrong.
Rudy Giuliani: (52:04)
Jesse Jacob: (52:04)
But I didn’t. I knew it was wrong, but I’m just a processor there. It’s up to the supervisor. I didn’t say anything.
Rudy Giuliani: (52:17)
And then was there a day when three people came in wearing black lives matter t-shirts? I think it was on November 2nd, you said. They were going to the voting booth and helping people to vote?
Jesse Jacob: (52:31)
No. What they did was, I think it was earlier than that. I don’t remember the exact date, but there were three of them. One was holding the flag, and one was wearing, I think all of them were wearing whatever the black lives matter or something like that. And one of them, actually, he wanted to drop his… They were there to drop off their absentee ballot. So they walked into the room and they were dropping. One of them were dropping that ballot into the box. So, another one was cheering and the other one was taking pictures and things like that. I knew it is also not right, but I cannot do anything. I was just sitting at my desk and doing my processing job. That’s all.
Rudy Giuliani: (53:23)
Now, about 14 days before the election, your supervisor, who I think you told me her name is Carla, said that she had a meeting with her boss, and that you should stop asking for driver’s license or photo ID.
Jesse Jacob: (53:41)
Yeah. What she told me was, “They are all registered voters. You don’t need any photo ID or driver’s license. They can just come and vote. Let the people vote.” But as a processor, I was not comfortable doing that. So myself, when they come to my table, I used to ask them at a very low voice. “Can I see your driver’s license, please?” I used to get from all of them to make myself comfortable when I am issuing the ballot. But I was told not to ask because they are all registered voters.
Rudy Giuliani: (54:24)
You asked them for driver’s licenses and photo ID?
Jesse Jacob: (54:28)
Yes I did.
Rudy Giuliani: (54:29)
And what happened?
Jesse Jacob: (54:31)
That way, I can verify their signature, the signature on the driver’s license with a signature on the application, and also the signature in the QBF. So, I can verify all those three. And when they returned the ballot to me, I can see they are signing on the absentee ballot envelope, the returned by envelope. So basically, all four locations. In the QBF file, on the driver’s license and on the application, and on the ballot return envelope. So, they are good. If all four of them are match, I will receive that ballot into the QBF. I’ll save it. And I will place my initial on the ballot return envelope, ballot number date, and again, initial. So, two initial I have to place on the ballot return envelope when I am receiving the ballot into the QBF. So, I was doing that for each and every ballot that I issued. That’s what is required by the Michigan official manual.
Rudy Giuliani: (55:41)
Now, your coworkers didn’t do that. And they asked you, didn’t they? “Why do you do it?” And didn’t you say, “For my peace of mind?”
Jesse Jacob: (55:48)
Yeah, the driver’s license. At the point when they said you don’t need a driver’s license, I said, “for my peace of mind, I’m going to ask anyway. I’m going to get the driver’s license.” And sometimes you won’t be even able to read the name on the application, the way some people write. So, I really want, for two reason, to enter the voter’s name correctly into the system, and also do to verify the signature. And also of course, the photo ID.
Rudy Giuliani: (56:23)
Did you also have to check signatures?
Jesse Jacob: (56:26)
Yes. Yes you do. That’s the first thing you do before you even start processing the ballot.
Rudy Giuliani: (56:36)
And on several occasions, didn’t you turn people down, and they got very angry at you? And then they went to one of your coworkers and your coworkers accepted them?
Jesse Jacob: (56:47)
One time, I remember one young gentleman. He’s signed totally different. And he said, “Oh.” Then, I showed his signature in the QBF file. I turned my laptop and showed to him. “You see the signature in the file?” And he said, “I don’t sign like that. That was from 10 years ago. I don’t sign like that anymore.” Then I said, “Sorry, I cannot do anything.” But I think at that point, I think he walked out, even though the supervisor, she was there. I don’t think supervisor did anything. I think the gentleman walked out,
Rudy Giuliani: (57:34)
Did there come a time toward the end of that period when a fairly large number of people came to vote in person, but they were people who had requested absentee ballots?
Jesse Jacob: (57:46)
Rudy Giuliani: (57:48)
And how were you supposed to deal with it? And then how were you told to deal with it?
Jesse Jacob: (57:55)
What I do is when the voter walk into the room, the person at the front desk, they will bring the driver’s license. That is the first two weeks of October. They will bring the application. The first thing I will do is, I will enter the voter and they will do a voter search. Then, then the system will tell you whether he already mailed an absentee ballot to them or not. Whether there is an active ballot in the QBF system for that voter. So when you do that, lots of time, you will see a ballot has been already sent to that voter. But when they come to you, they said, “I never requested a ballot. I never received any ballot. I never requested for a ballot. Can I vote now? I’m here. I want to vote now.”
Jesse Jacob: (58:51)
I said, “Of course, I can spoil the ballot. Then I can issue another ballot and you can vote.” So I have done that many times, but I was instructed to do like that. But per the Michigan officials manual, you are required to get an affidavit from that person, stating that I couldn’t find my ballot or I didn’t receive the ballot or whatever. I don’t know. But an affidavit would need to be submitted. But we were just asking them to fill out a form. That’s what we were doing. But they didn’t have to bring that ballot back to you, the first ballot that was already mailed to them. They didn’t have to bring it back. I remember during that one month period, I got some of them [inaudible 00:25:55]. I got maybe around five or 10 of them total. That’s all. But you are not required to bring it back. Just fill out the form, then you will get another ballot. You complete the ballot in person and you’re done. Then receive that ballot into the system.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:00:15)
So now, the other people that worked in your center, did they require the original ballot or an affidavit before they issued a new ballot?
Jesse Jacob: (01:00:29)
No. No, no. None of us were trained to do that.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:00:32)
None of them did that.
Jesse Jacob: (01:00:32)
Rudy Giuliani: (01:00:32)
And that’s what the law requires, correct?
Jesse Jacob: (01:00:35)
Per the Michigan’s official manual, yes. If you lost your ballot or you have a damaged ballot, yeah.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:00:46)
And that’s so somebody doesn’t vote twice, right?
Jesse Jacob: (01:00:49)
Yeah. I don’t know what happened with the first ballot. I don’t know.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:00:53)
But that’s the whole point, right?
Jesse Jacob: (01:00:54)
Rudy Giuliani: (01:00:55)
And about 32,500 of those ballots you estimate were issued without spoiling the original ballot?
Jesse Jacob: (01:01:06)
Rudy Giuliani: (01:01:07)
The period of time you were there.
Jesse Jacob: (01:01:09)
I mean, yeah. If you audit the file with the city of Detroit election department, from the QBF, you can find out how many ballots were spoiled. How many ballots were rejected, how many ballots were deleted, all those things you can find from the… So the exact number, it’s about right. I can speak to my center where I worked the [inaudible 01:01:38] recreation center location. I would say, how many ballots I spoiled? The first two weeks, there were lots of… Third week of October, I would say around a hundred ballots, maybe, I spoiled. Again, I may be wrong, but I don’t know exact number. But I can go back to my-
Rudy Giuliani: (01:02:08)
Sorry, Jesse, do you think it’s a hundred or 32,000?
Jesse Jacob: (01:02:12)
For the end date, there are 23 satellite sites. Some satellite sites are more people, depending on the area. So, yeah. You can say around 30,000. About 25,000 to 30,000, maybe.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:02:24)
And in any event, those would be-
Please. You’re out of order, members. You’re out of order. Representative [inaudible 00:28:35], you’re out of order. Let them continue, representatives. You’re out of order. Please continue.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:02:44)
And those would be whatever they are. Those would be totally illegal ballots. Correct?
Jesse Jacob: (01:02:51)
I don’t know what happened the first ballot that was mailed to the citizens. I don’t know how that was not returned, but we were issuing a second ballot and they were voting in person at these locations. I really don’t know what happened, whether they shredded those ballots or they trashed it. I don’t know, but it was not returned to the center or to the satellite sites.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:03:21)
November four, 2020, which is after the election you were assigned now to the TCF Center. Is that correct?
Jesse Jacob: (01:03:30)
Yes, I am.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:03:31)
And you arrived there at 8:30 in the morning?
Jesse Jacob: (01:03:34)
Rudy Giuliani: (01:03:35)
And what were your duties there?
Jesse Jacob: (01:03:40)
When got there at the front door? Actually, it was on the ground level of Cobo TCF Center. I think that’s where the auto show usually takes place. The big one, about thousand by thousand square feet, maybe. Big one. Yeah. So, it was packed.
Jesse Jacob: (01:04:05)
So when I ran to the front desk, I talked to the person at the front desk. I showed her my badge. I had a badge from the election department. I talked to her and told her I was asked to come and report here, 8:30, by my supervisor. And then she said, “Okay, wait, let me go and get the supervisor on this floor.” And she went and came back with that supervisor. I forgot that supervisor’s name. And he asked me, “What were you doing at the election department?” And I said I was a processor. And he said, “Oh, we need you. Come follow me.” Then he took me to the podium, the middle of the cobalt TCF Center podium.
Jesse Jacob: (01:04:50)
And he gave me the laptop. I was waiting there with the… I logged into the laptop. And at that point I noticed Mr. Chris Thomas, Ms. Pierce, those are from the state of Michigan. They were sitting on the other side of the table. And at one side of the table, all the city election officials sitting. So, I was sitting with them on that side. And my supervisor from the city side was Ms. Alderidge. I think her first name was Carol, I believe. Carol Alderidge. She was my supervisor. She knew me before. And she said, “Jesse, I need you.” So, she brought this…
Rudy Giuliani: (01:05:51)
So, did she tell you just about immediately, not to invalidate any ballots and not to look for deficiencies?
Jesse Jacob: (01:05:59)
She gave me a pack of, I would say, about 10 to 15 ballots. Those are all open ballots, all were opened. She brought to me and she said, “Jesse, enter date November 2nd, and receive this ballot into QBF. And also, some of the ballots, the envelope has sticky note: “Cannot find in the poll book, cannot find in the poll book.” Some of them had it. So, I took the first ballot and started opening up the QBF file. And I noticed that ballot was not received. The processor, whoever issued that ballot in person, or maybe that ballot was mailed. It came in postal mail, or it was picked up from the drop off box. I don’t know. No postage stamp or nothing on those envelopes. So I don’t know whether it was in-person, postal mail or pick up from the drop off box.
Jesse Jacob: (01:07:14)
Some of them didn’t have the counting board on the address label. No counting board printed. Some of them didn’t have a ballot number printed on the address label. But the thing that really concerned me when I saw those ballots, all of them are open. Some of them were upside down.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:07:36)
What does that mean, that they were all open? What’s the significance of that?
Jesse Jacob: (01:07:40)
You are not supposed to open. You have receive the ballot into the system first. You cannot open the ballot. It should be.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:07:50)
What do you have to do first before you open the ballot?
Jesse Jacob: (01:07:54)
So, when you received the ballot, the first thing you should do is, first you have to search the voter. You enter the last name, space, first name of the voter.
Jesse Jacob: (01:08:03)
You enter the last name, space, first name of the voter and we scan, and then you will locate that voter. Then you will get absentee voter details. You will match the signature on absentee ballot return envelope with the signature in the qualified voter file. Once it is verified, then you will have to receive it. You have to receive that into the system. Once you receive it, then you have to place your initials, ballot number, actually, you have to place twice your initials on the ballot return envelop. One for the date you received, one for the ballot number. So that’s what … You are required to do that as a processor.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:08:59)
Was that being done?
Jesse Jacob: (01:09:01)
Rudy Giuliani: (01:09:02)
Was that being done by anyone else that you could see in that entire facility?
Jesse Jacob: (01:09:06)
No. Actually I was told-
Rudy Giuliani: (01:09:09)
[crosstalk 01:09:09] You were the only one doing it?
Jesse Jacob: (01:09:09)
No. No. NO. I was trying to do that, the required they said a step-by-step process, I was told by my supervisor Ms. Aldredge “No, no. Don’t report anything. Don’t. Do not check anything. Just enter the date November 2nd. Keep going. We have lots of ballots. We have to finish this. I need you to do as fast as you can. Just enter November 2nd. Keep going.”
Jesse Jacob: (01:09:40)
Then I did one or two of them like that. But this is a really, really, really, I felt so bad because once you modify the QVR file, you can see the user name who modified that file. The last day that that data was modified. So if you click, you will see who modified. So when I click that, it was my user name and the date it would show. So basically, even though the received date was entered as November 2nd when you click the QVR file you will see user name, my user name, and the date I entered is now November 4th. But that’s not right.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:10:26)
I’m sorry, Jessy. I didn’t get quite get that. What did you say?
Jesse Jacob: (01:10:30)
See … Okay. I mean, I did just like my supervisor told me. This is at the TCF center. At the satellite sites my supervisor there never instructed me. Anything like that. We were receiving … The minute I would get the ballot, we were receiving the ballot into the system, same date. And everything was doing accordingly to their manual at the satellite center where I was working.
Jesse Jacob: (01:11:02)
This is, I just want to specify this one, I was asked to do at the TCF center at the podium where all these ballots were coming from. I didn’t even know where all these ballots were coming. It was keep coming. Then when I asked the person who was sitting next to me, she was doing the same thing, and she kind of told me, “Oh, Jessy, we were doing this since 9:00 PM yesterday. That’s November 3rd. We didn’t even go home. We were doing. We really need your help to complete this. To finish.”
Jesse Jacob: (01:11:41)
So basically what they were doing is entering all these ballot into the QVF so they can count those ballots. That’s what I thought. But they were not following the procedure. Because when you are receiving the … And also backdating. While you are doing that on November 4th, it should not have been done. The deadline was November 3rd, 9:00 PM. That’s the deadline for you to receive the absentee ballot into the system.
Jesse Jacob: (01:12:09)
So matter of fact, on November 3rd, I had to stay till 8:30. Even though the polls were closed at 8:00 PM. I had to wait and work till 8:30 to complete receiving all the ballots that were receiving into the satellite sites. So all the processes they are required to do that. 9:00 PM. Now I mean, 8:00 PM is the poll closing time, and you will get one hour grace period.
Jesse Jacob: (01:12:38)
So 9:00 PM it should be completed. For that we were asked to collect absentee ballots from the drop-off block every hour. Every hour we were doing it. And we were receiving the ballot to the QVF on November 3rd, every hour.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:12:56)
[crosstalk 01:12:56] So every hour you were doing what?
Jesse Jacob: (01:12:58)
Receiving the ballot. We will go to the drop off box in front of the satellite location. And you will collect the drop-off, I mean, absentee ballots, you will bring it to the table. And whatever you are doing, you will set aside that all the work that you are doing, you will make sure the ballot. Because per the Michigan’s Election written official manual, this is written, immediate recording of the ballot is required into the QVF. Immediate recording. Once you have received the ballot, immediate recording is required. Not after three days or after two days. No.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:13:40)
Your supervisor Carol Aldredge.
Jesse Jacob: (01:13:43)
We weren’t doing that. We were doing that in our satellite sites per the Michigan’s what is written in the manual.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:13:52)
Was anybody else doing what you were doing?
Jesse Jacob: (01:13:56)
Myself and there was another processor, my supervisor. All three of us, we were doing that.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:14:00)
Your supervisor ordered you though, not to invalidate any ballots, not to look for deficiencies, not to check signatures. And then when you did it, she got angry at you didn’t she?
Jesse Jacob: (01:14:13)
That’s the one at TCF center. Ms. Aldredge.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:14:17)
Yes. Ms. Aldredge. Yes. I’m sorry.
Jesse Jacob: (01:14:18)
Yes. Yes. Or she was so angry and you know what she did? It was around like one o’clock. She said, “Ms. Jacob, you can take your lunch break.” I said, “I just had my snack. It’s only 11 o’clock.” She said, “No, take lunch break.” I said, “About 30 minutes?” “No, no, no. You can take two hour lunch break. Just take two hour lunch break.” And then I said, “Okay, I will leave my bag and my jacket and everything here.” She said, “No, no, no, take everything. And you can go upstairs.”
Jesse Jacob: (01:14:49)
And she showed me where this escalator, go to upstairs, that’s where the lunchroom is. So I had to go. I left my laptop on the table there. I went there upstairs and lots of people. And because of the COVID I didn’t need anything. I just, actually, there was a free lunch for everybody. So I just eat Apple sauce. Then I came down. And I came down.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:15:19)
Jessy, before we get there, why don’t you tell us what that dispute was about? You put a sticky on the ballot saying that it was an invalid ballot-
Jesse Jacob: (01:15:33)
Rudy Giuliani: (01:15:34)
Because it was issued after the deadline.
Jesse Jacob: (01:15:37)
Rudy Giuliani: (01:15:37)
And she wanted you to backdate it. Correct?
Jesse Jacob: (01:15:41)
Yeah. Let me explain. What happened was when I was told put November 2nd as the received date, I noticed one of the ballot the date was November 3rd, absentee ballot. The deadline for absentee ballot issuance is November 2nd, 4 PM. So it was issued on November 3rd, election day. It was received, issued, received, everything on November 3rd.
Jesse Jacob: (01:16:08)
But then I checked whether that voter is a new registered voter, newly registered. No, he was not registered on November 3rd. He was registered sometime in 2010, 10 years ago. So you are not supposed to issue absentee ballot on election day to already registered voters. So then I right away, I talked to Mr. Daniel Baxter. He was standing next to me. I told, I put a note-
Rudy Giuliani: (01:16:41)
Please tell us who Mr. Baxter … So Mr. Baxter was right nearby?
Jesse Jacob: (01:16:46)
Rudy Giuliani: (01:16:46)
And you gave the ballot to him?
Jesse Jacob: (01:16:48)
With that sticky note.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:16:49)
And his name’s Daniel Baxter?
Jesse Jacob: (01:16:51)
Yes Mr. Daniel.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:16:52)
And what’s his role? What’s his title?
Jesse Jacob: (01:16:57)
I don’t know whether he is the director. I know he was in charge of the operation on that floor. One of the senior most-
Rudy Giuliani: (01:17:08)
[crosstalk 01:17:08] Okay. Well, we’ll find out what his role was. And what about what wasn’t his boss there too? The gentleman named Chris Thomas?
Jesse Jacob: (01:17:17)
Yes. Yes. So my nice, when I give that back-
Rudy Giuliani: (01:17:21)
What did they conclude about this invalid ballot?
Jesse Jacob: (01:17:24)
So with a sticky note, because with all this noise and everything in the TCF center and with the mask when you talk, they won’t be able to hear. So I always used to write down the sticky note so that they know exactly what I’m trying to convey to them. So I don’t invalid so-and-so reason. It was issued on November 3rd, absentee ballot after the deadline. So I showed it to Mr. Baxter. And he took that to … I mean, because Mr. Chris Thomas was standing nearby.
Jesse Jacob: (01:17:59)
So he showed that to Mr. Thomas with a sticky note. And after Mr. Thomas read that note, he said, “Yeah, she is right. But why should we punish voter’s for processors mistake?” Okay. That’s what he said. Why should we punish voters for processors mistake.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:18:26)
But was he in charge of the effort for Detroit? Was he the person in charge?
Jesse Jacob: (01:18:31)
That’s what I found out.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:18:33)
[crosstalk 01:18:33] Mr. Thomas?
Jesse Jacob: (01:18:33)
Yeah. That’s what I found out later. I knew-
Rudy Giuliani: (01:18:36)
[crosstalk 01:18:36] Let’s see.
Jesse Jacob: (01:18:37)
Rudy Giuliani: (01:18:39)
And then what, maybe we can summarize some of the-
Jesse Jacob: (01:18:44)
Yes. And then after that statement from Mr. Chris Thomas, Mr. Chris Thomas he gave that ballad back to Mr. Daniel Baxter and I again told Daniel Baxter, “I’m sorry, I cannot receive this ballot. This is invalid.” [inaudible 01:19:12] I told Mr. Daniel Baxter. So he took that ballot from me and dropped that ballot, there was a box next to Mr. Chris Thomas table underneath the table, he just dropped that ballot into that box. I don’t know what happened after that.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:19:31)
Well, let me see if I can shorten it just a little. After a short time, you were told to go to lunch for two hours, right? And you went to lunch for an hour and a half.
Jesse Jacob: (01:19:41)
[crosstalk 01:19:41] About two, yeah.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:19:41)
And you came back-
Jesse Jacob: (01:19:42)
Rudy Giuliani: (01:19:43)
And another gentleman named George [Asus 01:19:45] gave you some ballots to work on.
Jesse Jacob: (01:19:47)
Rudy Giuliani: (01:19:50)
And Carol Aldredge saw you there.
Jesse Jacob: (01:19:53)
Rudy Giuliani: (01:19:53)
And she came down from the podium.
Jesse Jacob: (01:19:55)
Rudy Giuliani: (01:19:55)
And what did she tell you?
Jesse Jacob: (01:19:56)
So when I came back from lunch, my seat was gone. There was a box on top of the laptop. My laptop was on the table. So, basically nobody was even … Ms. Aldredge she was totally ignoring me. She didn’t want me to be there at the podium anymore. So I was on the floor level. I found a table and a chair. I sat there. So when I was sitting there I saw Mr. George Asus, I think later found out he is the director of the elections at the election headquarters.
Jesse Jacob: (01:20:36)
So I have seen him when I was working at the election headquarters. So I recognized him. And I didn’t know his name at that point, but I said, “I’m here. I can help. Can I have a laptop and I can start validating these ballots?”
Jesse Jacob: (01:20:58)
So right away, he went to the podium and brought a laptop to me. And I don’t know. I log logged into the laptop. And he also gave me like a bunch off, about 10 to 15 ballots. Same thing that I was doing in the morning. But he didn’t know what happened, what was going on in the morning. He didn’t know. So he basically was giving an assignment, telling me to do it.
Jesse Jacob: (01:21:25)
So when I started doing it, again same thing. Enter November 2nd. Enter November 2nd. So Ms. Aldredge saw that from the podium that I’m on the floor level and also she saw, I have the ballots.
Jesse Jacob: (01:21:40)
She came down from the podium and she said, “Do not.” I was checking the signature and just whatever process you are required to do. She said, “Do not check that signature. Keep going. I told you in the morning, November 2nd. Keep going.” And she said, “Do not write anything. Do not write post its. I do not want you to write anything.”
Jesse Jacob: (01:22:08)
At that point, I saw Chris Thomas standing nearby on the floor level. I showed that ballot [inaudible 01:22:18] after I searched the voter, I searched the signature on the QVR file and also the signature on the envelope. Totally different, totally different.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:22:30)
The signatures were totally different.
Jesse Jacob: (01:22:30)
Rudy Giuliani: (01:22:32)
Who did you show that to?
Jesse Jacob: (01:22:33)
To Mr. Chris Thomas. And he-
Rudy Giuliani: (01:22:36)
And what he say?
Jesse Jacob: (01:22:37)
He said. “Oh, that’s okay. Let it go. Just let it go. That’s fine. Go ahead. Let it go.”
Rudy Giuliani: (01:22:43)
And he was the boss, right?
Jesse Jacob: (01:22:44)
Yes. Yes. So, but at that point I couldn’t do anything or anything. Because when I am entering the ballot, when they are telling me to enter November 2nd, or the date to be received November 2nd on November 4th, which date I will initial on the ballot. November 4th or November 2nd. I couldn’t do it.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:23:09)
So how would you describe how they treated you and how you reacted to it?
Jesse Jacob: (01:23:16)
Oh. It is … They treated me like a criminal. Humiliated me. Harassed me. So intimidating. I mean, I just … I couldn’t … It was so bad. You know what I mean? I really wanted to serve the city of Detroit really truthfully and sincerely. That’s what I was doing all these 34 years. I’ve been working with the city. I mean, my whole family we are proud that we are work. Me and my husband both are working with the city of Detroit. I never expected this kind of treatment. It was really, really bad.
Jesse Jacob: (01:24:08)
So then at that moment, then George Asus told me, “Come up here and take all your stuff from there. Come up here to the podium.” Then I went back to the podium. Then he gave me another chair to sit there. Then I saw the state representative, Ms Pearse. Karen Pearse was sitting there. And I went to her and I asked her for more balance to validate. And she was also very rude. She said, “I don’t need you here. I don’t need any of your help. Get out of here.” And then I asked her, “May I know your name?” You know what she did, she took her badge and throw it at me. She threw the badge at me.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:25:01)
Were you … The whole experience there? Were you shocked at the level of crookedness that was going on and dishonesty?
Jesse Jacob: (01:25:09)
I couldn’t believe it. I couldn’t believe it.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:25:11)
Did it happen every day?
Jesse Jacob: (01:25:16)
[inaudible 01:25:16] November 4th at TCF center around 5:30, I decided to stay. They didn’t give me any work. I even asked Daniel Baxter, “Can I do something else? I can help with the counting board table or anything you want me to do? I came here to work till 5:30.” And nobody was giving me anything. I just sat there and around 5:30, Mr. George Asus came to me and said, “I’m so sorry, Jessy. You didn’t do anything wrong. I apologize. I apologize. I’m so sorry.” That’s what he told me. And he asked me for my business card. I had my business card with me. I gave him my business card and I decided to go home around 5:30, but he was nice to me, George Asus.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:26:12)
Jesse Jacob: (01:26:15)
[crosstalk 01:26:15] I can never forget what I went through. It is … And also, I was really concerned. If this virus were problematic why they were bringing that to the podium? It should have been kept at the accounting board table and should have been resolved. What are the issues with those ballots? It should have been at your respective accounting boards. It should not have been even brought to the podium in the first place. So I don’t know. I really don’t know. And also after they fixed that ballot, who was taking ballot to where? I didn’t know. So everything, what was going on at the podium was not right.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:27:03)
Jesse Jacob: (01:27:03)
Rudy Giuliani: (01:27:04)
The podium is where they bring the ballots that have big problems, right? Special problems?
Jesse Jacob: (01:27:09)
Yes. Some of them didn’t have the counting board, so they could not locate that ballot. That ballot belong to which counting board. Some of the ballots didn’t have the ballot number.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:27:17)
So these were balanced with extra special problems and you were there a day and a half. And how many ballots were examined while you were there and there was no inspection by a Republican inspector? Can you estimate that for me? In the past, you told me 25,000.
Jesse Jacob: (01:27:48)
Actually I worked on the Cobo TCF center on November 4th, from eight 30 to five 30. And then when I asked George Asus, I told George this was actually, I was told to continue to work for the election department to November 20th.
Jesse Jacob: (01:28:07)
So I asked George Asus “Where do you want me to come tomorrow?” And he said, “Oh, we are all done here. You can go back to the election headquarters.” So I went back to the election headquarters or November 5th. So basically I only, they allow me to be there only on one day, not even one day, maybe for two hours, but I was there till 5:30. But I had to go through this, so inhumane, I mean …
Rudy Giuliani: (01:28:48)
Is there anything else that you’d like to say Jessy, about your experience?
Jesse Jacob: (01:28:58)
I just want to be so thankful. I’ve been in this country for 35 years. I’m so thankful for this country for all the opportunities. And I am who I am because of this nation. And also I am a devoted Catholic and I was able to go to church and pray and rosary and everything. I really love this country. And I really wanted to do … I hope this will help this nation. And it’s the only reason I’m here. And also my three children. Thank you, Jesus, for all the blessings and graces that you are showering upon us and on all this nation. I have nothing else to say. Thank you, Jesus.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:29:56)
Thank you. Thank you very much, Jessy.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:29:59)
Would you say Jessy, that that was an experience that you never expected to have that much crookedness and dishonesty at the Detroit center for counting votes? Were you shocked at the level of dishonesty and crookedness there?
Jesse Jacob: (01:30:16)
Yes. I mean the whole center was so kind of noisy
Rep. CA Johnson: (01:30:21)
[crosstalk 01:30:21] That’s my city. Okay. And I’m hoping that’s not true.
Chair Hall: (01:30:22)
[crosstalk 01:30:22] Representative, representative, representative.
Jesse Jacob: (01:30:27)
Oh, I love my city Detroit. I mean the city-
Rep. CA Johnson: (01:30:32)
[crosstalk 01:30:32] Mam.
Jesse Jacob: (01:30:32)
For 34 years, I’ve been serving the citizens of Detroit I’m so happy. They’re all nice people. I’m not saying … Really they don’t deserve this. They are nice people. My supervisor in the engineering department. I’ve been with the city for 34 years. From 2007, through 2010 I was a city engineer appointed by Kwame Kilpatrick. And now I am the head engineer. I’m working with my supervisor and my director.
Jesse Jacob: (01:31:06)
They are all very nice people. Don’t. Please don’t misunderstand me. I’m talking about my experience when I worked in the elections, first time in my life for two months, about two months, what I experienced. But as an employee of the city of Detroit, Oh, I am so grateful to them. And so thankful to each and every of my coworkers, they are really nice. So please don’t misunderstand me. Ms.-
Chair Hall: (01:31:40)
Ma’am please direct your questions to the chair.
Jesse Jacob: (01:31:42)
Miss Johnson, please don’t take it.
Chair Hall: (01:31:45)
Yep. So if it’s all right, we’ll start here now. And, Mr. Mayor, I do want to remind you, I mean, we’re not going to go to one or 2:00 AM.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:31:54)
Chair Hall: (01:31:54)
So I understand that this is somebody, I mean obviously you’re very brave to come forward with your story. I can tell you care a lot about your job, your work, and I appreciate you sharing it here today. Because I know it’s been difficult for you.
Jesse Jacob: (01:32:09)
Yes it is.
Chair Hall: (01:32:09)
With that I’m going to open it up to questions. We’ll do one question per member who wants it. Then when you’re done, we’ll move on. And Mr. Mayor, with the next witnesses, we’re going to have to move along faster.
Jesse Jacob: (01:32:24)
Sure. We will.
Chair Hall: (01:32:24)
All right. With that, I’ll move on to representative LaFave.
Rep. Lefave: (01:32:30)
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for coming and testifying today. And I’m very glad that you decided to be a part of our country. Welcome.
Chair Hall: (01:32:41)
Rep. Lefave: (01:32:42)
I have one question as per the rule and it might sound like a series. If anything that I say is wrong, please correct me. Okay?
Jesse Jacob: (01:32:54)
Rep. Lefave: (01:32:56)
You were told to enter the ballots at the TCF hall as received on 11-2.
Jesse Jacob: (01:33:04)
Rep. Lefave: (01:33:04)
And that was not the date. You also were told by Mr. Chris Thomas, “why should we punish voters for processors mistakes?” And Chris Thomas identified a ballot that you showed him within a signature that did not match the qualified voter file and director Chris Thomas said, “Let it go. That’s fine.”
Jesse Jacob: (01:33:33)
Rep. Lefave: (01:33:35)
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
Chair Hall: (01:33:37)
Thank you, Representative Lagrand.
Rep. Legrande: (01:33:41)
Thank you Mr. Chair, and ma’am thank you for being here today. I’m going to refer back to my notes here. And this is about, I don’t know, maybe around 6:30, we got to this. You said that about … And I’m just I’m reading from my notes here so if I get this wrong again, feel free to correct me.
Rep. Legrande: (01:34:02)
But if I understand your testimony, you’re saying that about 14 days before the election, your supervisor, Carla told you that people could vote without ID. And you said that for your peace of mind, you insisted that people provide ID. Are you aware that people in Michigan can vote without identification? In fact, I’ve always voted that way.
Rep. Legrande: (01:34:41)
You’re not aware-
Chair Hall: (01:34:43)
[crosstalk 01:34:43] Members of the audience, please let’s be respectful. Thank you.
Rep. Legrande: (01:34:47)
Ma’am are you aware of that ma’am?
Rudy Giuliani: (01:34:49)
Jesse Jacob: (01:34:54)
Zero to fourteen days that is the restricted registration time. You have to have ID and also the proof of residency. And if you don’t have the driver’s license, you have to submit an affidavit and also you have to have a passport or something for the ID. That’s my understanding.
Rep. Legrande: (01:35:15)
Okay. You’re you’re confused. Thank you.
Chair Hall: (01:35:21)
Representative Steve Johnson.
Rep. Johnson: (01:35:26)
Thank you, Mr. Chair. When you are processing these ballots at any point in time, were there ever any poll Watchers, poll challengers, and if so, were they from both parties or just one party?
Jesse Jacob: (01:35:41)
Just from democratic party? Actually, one day I happened to talk to one the persons. She came from DC democratic party. I don’t remember seeing anybody from the other party.
Chair Hall: (01:35:57)
Representative CA Johnson.
Rep. CA Johnson: (01:35:59)
Chair Hall: (01:36:07)
Representative CA Johnson. Why don’t you go ahead.
Rep. CA Johnson: (01:36:12)
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Okay. Good evening.
Jesse Jacob: (01:36:19)
Good evening, Ms. Johnson.
Rep. CA Johnson: (01:36:22)
You … Your name is Jessy.
Jesse Jacob: (01:36:29)
Rep. CA Johnson: (01:36:30)
Jessy Jacobs. Is that your birth name?
Jesse Jacob: (01:36:35)
Okay. My first name is Jessy when I was married. My husband’s last name is Jacob. When I got married in 1983, 37 years ago, I had my maiden name. That’s my dad’s house name. It’s a long name.
Rep. CA Johnson: (01:36:53)
Can you spell it please?
Jesse Jacob: (01:36:54)
K-I K like kite I-Z-H-A- K-E-K-A-R-A.
Chair Hall: (01:37:03)
Representative. What is your question please?
Rep. CA Johnson: (01:37:05)
I’m asking the question.
Chair Hall: (01:37:07)
Well, please ask.
Rep. CA Johnson: (01:37:08)
[crosstalk 01:37:08] She gave a lot of information. I just want to know who she is.
Chair Hall: (01:37:12)
Representative, please, it’s reasonable to ask the name of the person. I’m with you there-
Rep. CA Johnson: (01:37:17)
[crosstalk 01:37:17] Yes.
Chair Hall: (01:37:17)
But now that you know it-
Rep. CA Johnson: (01:37:20)
What’s was your first name? What?
Jesse Jacob: (01:37:22)
Rep. CA Johnson: (01:37:22)
Jesse Jacob: (01:37:23)
J-E-S-S-Y. Not E.
Rep. CA Johnson: (01:37:26)
J-E-S-S-Y. Thank you very much.
Chair Hall: (01:37:29)
Okay, now please move on to your question representative.
Rep. CA Johnson: (01:37:32)
That’s it. You asked the same one.
Chair Hall: (01:37:33)
Thank you, representative.
Jesse Jacob: (01:37:35)
And my middle name is Sunny. My middle name is sunny. S-U-N-N-Y.
Chair Hall: (01:37:41)
I think it’s important Representative CA Johnson. I mean, if that was … We’re not here to intimidate people.
Jesse Jacob: (01:37:50)
[crosstalk 01:37:50] That’s okay. That’s okay.
Chair Hall: (01:37:50)
Okay. I mean, we want to hear what happened. So Representative Camilleri, please proceed with your question.
Rep. Camilleri: (01:37:58)
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Giuliani, before you began-
Chair Hall: (01:38:02)
[crosstalk 01:38:02] I’m going to gavel this. The question is for the witness. As I told you at the end, you’re able to ask a question to Mr. Giuliani.
Rep. Camilleri: (01:38:09)
We have two, three people actually before our panel today, each of them is before our panel.
Chair Hall: (01:38:14)
[crosstalk 01:38:14] Representative-
Rep. Camilleri: (01:38:14)
[crosstalk 01:38:14] And I know that you gave your power away to Mr. Giuliani, to ask questions during this part of the testimony. That’s fine, but it is now my right as a representative to ask a question of the people before our committee.
Chair Hall: (01:38:26)
[crosstalk 01:38:26] Representative you are out of order. If you do not have a question, Representative.
Rep. Camilleri: (01:38:27)
[crosstalk 01:38:27] This is not for landscaping. This is not of the state legislature. I should have a right to ask a question of who is before us.
Chair Hall: (01:38:35)
We’ll allow you to ask a question at the end of Mr. Giuliani, as I stated at the beginning. If you have a question for the witness Ms. Jacob, please ask it. If you don’t, then I’m going to move on.
Rep. Camilleri: (01:38:46)
All right. Ms. Jacobs, I know that you’ve given testimony previously. We’ve heard your story in the media. I know that you gave testimony yesterday as well. Judge Kenny in Wayne County circuit court.
Jesse Jacob: (01:38:57)
[crosstalk 01:38:57] May I ask-
Rudy Giuliani: (01:38:58)
[crosstalk 01:38:58] She did not give testimony yesterday.
Rep. Camilleri: (01:39:00)
[crosstalk 01:39:00] I apologize. I apologize.
Chair Hall: (01:39:01)
[crosstalk 01:39:01] Representative, please tell us your question.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:39:03)
[crosstalk 01:39:03] That’s very misleading.
Rep. Camilleri: (01:39:04)
You’ve asked a lot of leading questions yourself, Mr. Giuliani.
Chair Hall: (01:39:06)
Representative Camilleri, please, what is your question?
Rep. Camilleri: (01:39:09)
My question, Ms. Jacobs is Judge Kenny has ruled that your testimony in court is incorrect and not credible. So why should we believe anything that you said here today?
Speaker 2: (01:39:20)
[crosstalk 01:39:20] That is not true.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:39:22)
I’m not aware of any such ruling. She’s never been a witness in court. It would have been impossible for a judge to-
Rep. Camilleri: (01:39:28)
You’re affidavit was ruled-
Rudy Giuliani: (01:39:30)
May I please finish?
Rep. Camilleri: (01:39:31)
[crosstalk 01:39:31] Incorrect and not credible.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:39:32)
May I have the courtesy of finishing. She has never been a witness in court, so no judge could ever have assessed her credibility.
Chair Hall: (01:39:40)
What is your question, Mr. Camilleri?
Rep. Camilleri: (01:39:42)
Why are we listening to your story here today? If it has already been ruled incorrect and not credible by a judge in court.
Speaker 2: (01:39:49)
It has not.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:39:52)
It has not been ruled. Objection.
Rep. Camilleri: (01:39:53)
This is not a court room. Mr. Giuliani, this is a committee. Why do you keep objecting to what I’m saying?
Chair Hall: (01:39:57)
Representative, is there an answer to that?
Speaker 2: (01:40:00)
It isn’t true.
Jesse Jacob: (01:40:01)
Okay. You can go and ask the judge who denied that. Okay. I don’t know anything about it.
Chair Hall: (01:40:06)
Okay. Thank you.
Speaker 2: (01:40:08)
She wasn’t there.
Chair Hall: (01:40:08)
We’re going to move on. Vice-chair Riley with a question.
Vice Chair Riley: (01:40:12)
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, my question I noticed you said you looked at some of the signatures. Well, like what percentage of the signatures would you say did not match or did not look right?
Jesse Jacob: (01:40:22)
No. When when I was at the sideline sites working as a processor, I always made sure the signatures matched. This was at TCF center on November 4th.
Vice Chair Riley: (01:40:35)
Yeah. And at that point did you look at any of the signatures?
Jesse Jacob: (01:40:38)
Vice Chair Riley: (01:40:39)
Jesse Jacob: (01:40:39)
I showed that to Mr. Chris Thomas, and he said “Let it go. It was totally different. Let it go.” And after that I was kicked out. I told them. I was told not to validate any more ballots.
Vice Chair Riley: (01:40:51)
So just one chance. Okay.
Jesse Jacob: (01:40:53)
For that day. Yes.
Chair Hall: (01:40:56)
All right. Thank you with that. There are no more questions for you, Ms. Jacob. Thank you for your testimony today. You’re very brave coming here and thank you.
Jesse Jacob: (01:41:06)
Thank you so much. Just I am so thankful to this honorable body for having me and for listening to me. Thank you so much.
Chair Hall: (01:41:18)
I understand we have next is it Miss Carbone?
Miss Carone: (01:41:23)
Chair Hall: (01:41:25)
Carone. All right, please come up when you’re ready. And if possible, if we can limit this to 10 minutes, I’d appreciate that. Mr. Giuliani, you indicated that the first person was somebody who hadn’t testified before, didn’t testify yesterday, longer than I expected.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:41:44)
Chair Hall: (01:41:44)
And so we know-
Rudy Giuliani: (01:41:47)
[crosstalk 01:41:47] I felt uncomfortable interrupting her.
Chair Hall: (01:41:48)
No I understand, and I think she had a very valuable story to tell and she was very brave coming here. Obviously at great risk. And we understand that. But from here on, if we can condense these testimonies. If we can allow more questions to come from the members.
Chair Hall: (01:42:02)
If we can allow more questions to come from the members, we’d appreciate that, sir. So with that, please, Melissa, we’d like to hear your story. And please, when you’re ready, proceed.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:42:12)
Melissa, why don’t you tell us your name, and tell us as short and as briefly as you can what happened when you were working for Dominion?
Melissa Carone: (01:42:21)
Sure. Name is Melissa Carone. I was contracted to work for Dominion voting systems. I’m a freelance IT worker. I was contracted to work for Dominion to assist with IT during the election. I started work at 6:00 AM on November 3rd at the TCF Center. I got off work at 5:00 AM November 4th, went home, went to bed, returned to work at 10:00 AM November 4th, stayed until approximately 2:00 PM November 4th. When I got off, I had a doctor’s appointment. I was supposed to come back to work. One of the Dominion employees, he’s in my affidavit. His name is Samuel, texted me and said, “We’re almost done counting ballots. We don’t need you to come back.” It was getting a little rowdy when I left. I really didn’t want to come back anyways. So that is why I was contracted to work for Dominion, assisting with IT.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:43:43)
And when you were working there, what did you observe?
Melissa Carone: (01:43:48)
I observed numerous employees, city workers, running batches of ballots through the tabulators countless times without discarding them first. The tabulating machines would jam two to three times an hour. When they would jam, the correct process would be to pull out the problem ballot that jammed. Say the problem ballot was number 24 out of 50. I wasn’t allowed to touch any hardware at all. I would assist them, tell them to pull out this ballot, put the problem ballot on top. In Michigan, our ballots from the tabulators don’t just drop into steel ballot boxes. As they got tabulated, they are now on top of the tabulating machine.
Melissa Carone: (01:44:50)
So instead of them taking these… Let’s keep it number 25 is the ballot. It got jammed. So the computer would throw an error. It would say, “Ballot number 25, there is an error.” I would say, “Pull out bail number 25, slowly pull it out. Put it on top. Take the ballots that had already been tabulated, which are on top of the tabulating machine now. Put them all back in a stack, discard the entire batch, and re-scan it.” Instead of discarding, they were just re-scanning, re-scanning, re-scanning, counting ballots 9 to 10 times, counting votes 9 to 10 times.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:45:41)
So they were counting the same ballot, the same vote, 9 or 10 times?
Melissa Carone: (01:45:45)
Yes, sir. They were counting them 9 or 10 times.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:45:48)
How many times did you observe that?
Melissa Carone: (01:45:51)
These machines would jam two to three times an hour, each machine. There were approximately 22 to 24 tabulating machines in the TCF Center. I observed it thousands of times.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:46:09)
Thousands of times? Were there 20 machines, approximately?
Melissa Carone: (01:46:16)
Approximately between 22 to 24, yes.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:46:20)
And were there any Republicans who were observing, or just Democrats?
Melissa Carone: (01:46:25)
I saw very few Republicans, about three total.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:46:29)
And how about those 20 machines? Did you see any of them observing those 20 machines where the ballot was being put in 10 or 20 times?
Melissa Carone: (01:46:39)
I got some of them questioning me. I had called my manager over to a specific tabulating machine. I showed him a number on it, which was close to 500. It should never go over 50. Ballots come in batches of 50. I said, “We have a severe problem here, Nick [Ikonomakis 00:05:02],” which is a part owner of Dominion. And he said, “Melissa, I don’t want to hear that we have a problem.” He said, “We are here to assist with IT. We are not here to run their election.” That is exactly what he said to me. At that point, I was just really frustrated and upset. I could tell what was going on. I knew what was going on at that point.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:47:27)
What was going on?
Melissa Carone: (01:47:30)
He was in on it. He was in on it. They were all in on it.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:47:33)
In on what?
Melissa Carone: (01:47:35)
They were cheating. It was very, very apparent. It was apparent he knew, it was apparent that he was in on it, and when he caught on to me knowing that he was in on it, he just wanted nothing to do with me.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:47:53)
Now, did there come a time when two vans pulled up in the back-
Melissa Carone: (01:47:57)
Rudy Giuliani: (01:47:58)
… late at night?
Melissa Carone: (01:47:58)
Rudy Giuliani: (01:47:59)
Tell us about that.
Melissa Carone: (01:48:01)
Approximately 4:00, the garage door of The TCF Center opened. The counting room in the TCF Center is in the basement, so when the garage door opened, a van pulled up, one on day shift, one on night shift. They were supposed to be for food, because they were short on food for the workers. That’s what they said over the microphone. That’s what [Daniel Baxter 00:06:24] said. He said they had food for one third of the workers and that they would provide food, and it would be there shortly. Well, food never came out of these vans.
Rep. C.A. Johnson: (01:48:39)
Point of order.
Chair Hall: (01:48:40)
Yes, what’s your point of order, Representative?
Rep. C.A. Johnson: (01:48:42)
We have these people coming in here, testifying, making claims. We should have them under… What do you call it?
Melissa Carone: (01:48:51)
Rep. C.A. Johnson: (01:48:52)
Chair Hall: (01:48:54)
Representative, we don’t do that.
Melissa Carone: (01:48:56)
Under oath here?
Chair Hall: (01:48:57)
Representative, we’re not going to do that.
Melissa Carone: (01:49:00)
[crosstalk 01:48:58]. I’m under oath. I have an affidavit. I’m under oath.
Chair Hall: (01:49:00)
You’re out of order. You’re out of order, Representative. We don’t do that.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:49:05)
Chair Hall: (01:49:05)
… here in Michigan.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:49:06)
Mr. Chairman, she has-
Chair Hall: (01:49:06)
We’ve never done that.
Melissa Carone: (01:49:07)
I wrote an affidavit.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:49:08)
Chair Hall: (01:49:09)
We’re going to move on.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:49:09)
… she has an affidavit.
Melissa Carone: (01:49:10)
… Biden never has done.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:49:11)
She has an affidavit under oath.
Rep. C.A. Johnson: (01:49:14)
[crosstalk 01:49:14] then it should not be-
Chair Hall: (01:49:14)
Representative. Please continue. And if we could have fewer back and forth, and maybe you can tell your story. No, I’m talking with Mr. Giuliani. We really want to get through this, and this is sort of a format that is a little unusual to our committee. So if it’s possible to tell a little more of your story… And I understand you’re trying to speed it up, but we want to make sure we get through everything today, Mr. Giuliani.
Melissa Carone: (01:49:43)
Rudy Giuliani: (01:49:46)
And reach in for your affidavit. That’s your affidavit, under oath.
Melissa Carone: (01:49:48)
Sure. So I have 19 things in my affidavit. I was at the TCF Center for 27 hours. I am a mother. I have two children and I have two degrees. I don’t know any woman in the world that would write an affidavit under oath just to write it. You can go to prison for this. So anyways, I want to make this very clear. I was initially supposed to work at the Detroit Department of Elections building. That was an order by my manager, Nick [Ikonomakis 00:08:35], part owner of Dominion. I have it all in emails. I was trained on the adjudication and tabulation process. So in the email, it says you are to park in a parking lot and get shuttled over to this… They referred to it as the Chicago warehouse.
Melissa Carone: (01:51:06)
I know for a fact there was illegal activity going on there. People have pictures of people carrying ballots out of that place. There is pictures of vans full of ballots coming out of that place. If it wasn’t for my mother, I would have went there. My mom told me, “No, no, no, no way. This sounds really, really weird.” And I have two young children, as I stated, that I needed access to my vehicle in case something happened. I ended up telling them that, and they said, “Okay, we’ll put you at the TCF Center.” Well, Samuel… There was five employees. Three permanent employees of Dominion, two contract employees, me, a contract employee, and there was a 90- year old man, last name [Smiley 00:10:06]. I have has all his paperwork. I have all their names, last names.
Melissa Carone: (01:52:09)
Four employees that were scheduled to work in the city of Detroit that were not at the TCF Center were all at this Chicago warehouse, which was the city election department building. Anyways, so I also witnessed… There was a point in the night where Samuel and Nick said that there was a big data loss. They started freaking out, stepped off the stage, got on their phones. I asked them what was going on. They said it was taken care of. Nick sent Samuel over to this warehouse for about three hours. When he got back, I said, “Where were you? Where’d you go?” He said, “I was at the warehouse.” And I said, “What were you doing there?” And he’s like “Nothing. They just needed my help.” Well, I said, “Where is this warehouse,” because I wasn’t putting two and two together yet, that I was initially supposed to work there. Because I had never even looked up the address.
Melissa Carone: (01:53:29)
What I believe is it wasn’t a data loss. It was actually when they found out Trump was ahead 100,000 votes, and they sent Nick over there to assist with these ballots that came in these vans full of ballots that people can attest to, that they witnessed being carried out of these vans at the TCF Center. I didn’t see any ballots being carried out of vans. I’m not going to lie. I didn’t see anything being carried out of them, but I know people who have, and did see this occurring. But I also witnessed the adjudication process. Numerous adjudicators, machines, were… All the ballots were being judged by two Democrats. I heard them talking. One woman said to another woman, “Are you a Republican, or are you a Democrat?” She said, “I’m a Democrat.” And she said, “Well, so am I. Let’s sit together.” Sat together all night, judging ballots. I mean, thousands of ballots got judged all night by… The reason the rule’s there is so it can be a fair process. It wasn’t a fair process. It wasn’t a fair process at all. And the tabulating problem with them running numerous ballots through these tabulators and just continuing to do it…
Melissa Carone: (01:55:13)
I had a friend that I knew for over 20 years, and he came up to me and said… He was working the night shift. He came up to me and said, “Melissa, we did not get any training at all. None.” He goes, “I have no idea what I’m doing.” He was with three other people. I said, ” I just told my manager that.” I said, “I could tell you guys don’t know what you’re doing.” And he said, “Nope, we were trained on the adjudication process, not the tabulation process.” And I said, “So you don’t know what you’re doing.” And he said, Nope.” I said, “Great. That’s just great,” because nobody was helping me. I was running around, assisting these people all night long, and it was all day and all night. It was crazy.
Melissa Carone: (01:55:55)
And they were running these ballots through without discarding them countless times, countless times. There were so many ballots that ran through these tabulators numerous times, without any oversight at all. This election, I will say… These Democrats, took every avenue possible to commit fraud in this election, and what I saw on the 3rd and 4th was over 20 counts of fraud being done, taking place in front of my face. And this isn’t counting the ballots that are found in rivers, the ballots found under rocks, the ballots that ended up-
Rep. C.A. Johnson: (01:56:46)
[crosstalk 00:14:47]. First of all-
Chair Hall: (01:56:48)
Representative, please. Representative. [crosstalk 00:14:50]. Do you have a point of order?
Melissa Carone: (01:56:54)
I love how you can just say whatever you want to say.
Chair Hall: (01:56:57)
What’s your point of order? Do you have a point of order, Representative?
Melissa Carone: (01:56:59)
Speaker 3: (01:57:03)
Cynthia wants to defend the fraud.
Melissa Carone: (01:57:07)
This is funny.
Chair Hall: (01:57:09)
All right. Ma’am, please continue.
Melissa Carone: (01:57:12)
Chair Hall: (01:57:14)
And also, by the way… I mean, can you maybe speak to your experience? I know we’ve heard stories of ballots being thrown in rivers, but I want to make sure we’re speaking to your experience, because we have limited time and we-
Melissa Carone: (01:57:26)
Chair Hall: (01:57:26)
… got to get our questions in and the other witnesses. So is there more to your experience? And then-
Melissa Carone: (01:57:32)
Well, I called the FBI on the 8th, November 8th. I talked to two separate women over 40 minutes. The first one, gave her all my information. The phone mysteriously cut out, and she never called me back. I was waiting for her to call me back. She never called me back. I had to call them back, and they never called me back. Never got a call back, still haven’t got a call back. And I had somebody else working on it that has a neighbor that’s an old FBI agent, and still haven’t heard back from that.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:58:09)
Can I ask you just one last question?
Melissa Carone: (01:58:11)
Rudy Giuliani: (01:58:12)
So how many ballots would you estimate in front of you that you observed were counted multiple times in the machine? Can you put a number to it, an estimated number?
Melissa Carone: (01:58:28)
At least 30,000.
Rudy Giuliani: (01:58:29)
At least 30,000. Thank you.
Chair Hall: (01:58:35)
Thank you, and I guess I’ll ask a question. I just want to understand. So what is your role with Dominion? Can you clarify that?
Melissa Carone: (01:58:46)
[inaudible 00:16:47]. You’re welcome. My role with Dominion was to assist with IT for the election.
Chair Hall: (01:58:56)
So you’re some kind of contract employee?
Melissa Carone: (01:58:58)
I was a contract employee, yes.
Chair Hall: (01:59:01)
Okay, of what organization?
Melissa Carone: (01:59:04)
I’m sorry, [crosstalk 00:17:03]?
Chair Hall: (01:59:06)
So you were like a contract employee of Dominion, or was there some contractor?
Melissa Carone: (01:59:11)
So I have my resume everywhere because I was laid off from Ford, so they just found my resume and called me and said, “Do you want to work the election the 3rd and the 4th?”
Chair Hall: (01:59:26)
I see, but you were employed directly by Dominion?
Melissa Carone: (01:59:30)
Did Dominion pay me? No. PDS Staffing paid me, because they called me, but I was working for Dominion. Yes. Something very, very suspicious too, must I add, that we were not allowed to wear name tags at all. We were not allowed to talk about who we worked for. They were very secretive. They didn’t want anybody knowing anything about them.
Chair Hall: (01:59:56)
And so I just want to make sure I understand you correctly. So you’re alleging that you heard or that you witnessed ballots being put in the machine, run through, counted, and then put through it again? Is that what you’re alleging?
Melissa Carone: (02:00:13)
Without discarding. That is what I am telling you to be a fact.
Chair Hall: (02:00:19)
And how many times did you witness this happening?
Melissa Carone: (02:00:24)
I witnessed it, in a 27-hour period, thousands and thousands of times.
Chair Hall: (02:00:32)
That’s very interesting. And I will note, Dominion won’t come before this committee. I’ve asked them, and so far they’ve refused. And I do want them to come before this committee, because we need answers from them about how their machines work.
Melissa Carone: (02:00:48)
Chair Hall: (02:00:49)
So we’re going to continue to try to get them here. But with that, I’ll go to Representative LaFave.
Rep. LaFave: (02:00:56)
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I am not sure how I’m going to do this with one question, but I’m going to try my best anyway. So with these tabulator machines of which you estimate there are approximately 22 to 24… I guess I’m not understanding. So you place batches of 50 on top of the machine-
Melissa Carone: (02:01:22)
No. Okay, so I’m going to try to explain it to you as if it’s a printer. Okay?
Rep. LaFave: (02:01:31)
Melissa Carone: (02:01:32)
Okay. So a printer, when the papers come out of the printer, that’s where… On these tabulators, that’s where you would feed the 50 in. Now, on top of the printer, so where the scanner would be if it’s like a foreign one, that’s where these ballots would come out after they had been tabulated. So if one jammed, number 25 jammed, then it would put up an error, “Discard, re-scan. Ballot number 25 has an issue.” So they would then take all the ballots that had been tabulated from the top that are now on the top, the 24 that are on the top, the ones that are on the bottom, they haven’t been tabulated yet, and number 25, the problem ballot. They would put number 25 on top. They would discard the entire batch, and then they would re-scan it. Instead of discarding it, they would re-scan them, counting those 24 again. Now, let’s say it was, out of 50, number 48 that jammed. That’s 47 being counted again. You know what I’m saying? So does that clarify that?Okay.
Rep. LaFave: (02:03:05)
It does. And basically, you put batches of 50 in until you’re done with that precinct, right?
Melissa Carone: (02:03:14)
That’s what they would do, yes. So a lot of these workers, they would get a batch of 50 and then they wouldn’t get another batch for like 10 minutes. So then the ballot box was behind them, the steel ballot box. So they would have this batch of 50 in front of them for 10 minutes with no oversight, so they would run them through again with no oversight. They just had no idea what was going on. And if they did know what was going on… I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt, so I’m saying they have no idea what’s going on. Who knows? They did. I have no idea.
Rep. LaFave: (02:03:59)
That was helpful.
Melissa Carone: (02:04:00)
I know what my friend said.
Rep. LaFave: (02:04:01)
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chair Hall: (02:04:03)
Representative C.A.Johnson. You’re on our list. Did you have a question? Okay. Representative Camilleri.
Rep. Camilleri: (02:04:13)
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for your testimony. Going back to the ruling from Judge Kenny, Timothy Kenny, he writes that your description of the events at the TCF Center does not square with any other affidavits. He says that there are-
Melissa Carone: (02:04:27)
Rep. Camilleri: (02:04:27)
Excuse me, I’m speaking. Thank you.
Chair Hall: (02:04:30)
Please, let’s let the representative finish, and then-
Melissa Carone: (02:04:32)
Rep. Camilleri: (02:04:32)
He writes that there are no other reports of lost data or tabulating machines that jammed repeatedly every hour during the count. He also writes that neither Republican nor Democratic challengers nor city officials substantiate your version of these events. “The allegations simply are not credible,” is what Judge Kenny writes. So my question for you is you’re making claims here today that there’s systematic fraud in what’s going on in our elections. Are the courts also tied up in that fraud?
Melissa Carone: (02:05:03)
Let me tell you what I did by accident. I gave Channel 7 an interview that they tied in to that, and made me the witness that’s uncredible. Guess what? There’s going to be a couple behind me that are going to say the same thing I just said. And-
Rep. Camilleri: (02:05:22)
The witness before you was also proven not credible as well, by the same judge.
Melissa Carone: (02:05:26)
Oh, no she wasn’t-
Rep. Camilleri: (02:05:26)
Melissa Carone: (02:05:27)
… because she wasn’t even there.
Chair Hall: (02:05:28)
Representative Camilleri, let’s let her finish, please.
Melissa Carone: (02:05:31)
[crosstalk 02:05:31] the very first time that she has talked, the very first time.
Chair Hall: (02:05:34)
So I just want to understand. I don’t know what exactly all the things that are being talked about there are, but can you tell us what you said today is the truth? Is that correct?
Melissa Carone: (02:05:48)
Sir, I wrote a written affidavit. Yes, it is 100% true.
Chair Hall: (02:05:56)
Okay, and did other people observe this?
Melissa Carone: (02:06:00)
Absolutely. Behind me, you’re going to hear a couple.
Chair Hall: (02:06:05)
Okay, and we’ll hear from them, hopefully.
Melissa Carone: (02:06:05)
And let me just state this. I was an it worker on the stage. I was working with Dominion. Poll workers were not allowed on the stage. The data loss, nobody would have heard about that besides me, Samuel, and Nick, just like nobody knows that Samuel went to the Chicago warehouse besides me, because I worked for Dominion. They didn’t. They’re not going to hear that part. You know what I mean? The poll workers are not going to know that Samuel… They’re not even going to who he is. They’re not going to know that he went to the warehouse.
Chair Hall: (02:06:55)
I think what Representative Camilleri is asking is perhaps why is it that more people… And I know we have a couple here today, but why is it that we’re not having more people come forward? I mean, it seems like if there was-
Melissa Carone: (02:07:08)
I’ll tell you why.
Chair Hall: (02:07:09)
… widespread fraud, that we’d have dozens and dozens of people.
Melissa Carone: (02:07:12)
I’ll tell you why. My life has been destroyed. My life has been completely destroyed because of this. I’ve lost family, I’ve lost friends. I’ve been threatened, my kids have been threatened. I’ve had to move. I’ve had to change my phone number. I’ve had to get rid of social media. Nobody wants to come forward. They’re getting threatened. Their lives are getting ruined. I can’t even get an actual job anymore. I can’t, because Democrats like to ruin your lives. That’s why.
Chair Hall: (02:07:51)
All right, all right.
Melissa Carone: (02:07:55)
Just like they do to Trump.
Chair Hall: (02:07:57)
Let’s move on to Representative Steve Johnson.
Rep. Steve Johnson: (02:08:02)
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So obviously, these allegations are very troubling. This is my question here. If these ballots were run through multiple times as you’ve alleged, and then you said possibly up to 30,000 times, definitely thousands of times being counted, when we examine the poll book and see who voted and we count those numbers, would they then not line up with the total number of votes coming out of Detroit?
Melissa Carone: (02:08:30)
Later, later. The poll book is completely off, completely off.
Rep. Steve Johnson: (02:08:38)
Off by 30,000?
Melissa Carone: (02:08:40)
I’d say that poll book is off by over 100,000. That poll book… Why don’t you look at the registered voters on there? How many registered voters are on there? Do you even know the answer to that?
Rep. Steve Johnson: (02:08:55)
I’m trying to get to the bottom of this here.
Melissa Carone: (02:08:56)
Zero, zero. There’s zero.
Rep. Steve Johnson: (02:08:58)
So my question then is if the-
Melissa Carone: (02:09:02)
Guess how many… Wait. What about the turnout rate? 120%?
Chair Hall: (02:09:09)
Let’s say representative Johnson asked his question, please.
Rep. Steve Johnson: (02:09:12)
So the poll book number… There’s two things that could happen here. Either the poll book number… If ballots were [counted 02:09:21] multiple times, there there’s two options. Option number one is that the poll book numbers are not going to match-
Melissa Carone: (02:09:27)
Rep. Steve Johnson: (02:09:28)
… the actual. Not by thousands and thousands of votes. That’s not what we see right now.
Melissa Carone: (02:09:32)
You take a look again.
Rep. Steve Johnson: (02:09:33)
That’s option number one.
Melissa Carone: (02:09:33)
Take a look again.
Rep. Steve Johnson: (02:09:34)
Option number two is that they essentially were filling in names of people who didn’t vote.
Melissa Carone: (02:09:39)
Dead people, too?
Rep. Steve Johnson: (02:09:40)
So is that your suggestion?
Chair Hall: (02:09:42)
Let’s let Representative Johnson ask his question, and then when he’s done-
Melissa Carone: (02:09:44)
I thought that was his… Okay.
Rep. Steve Johnson: (02:09:46)
I guess that’s my question, is why we’re not seeing the poll book off by 30,000 votes. That’s not the case.
Melissa Carone: (02:09:51)
What’d you guys do, take it and do something crazy to it?
Rep. Steve Johnson: (02:09:56)
I’m just saying, the numbers are not off by 30,000 votes. So-
Melissa Carone: (02:10:00)
I know what I saw.
Rep. Steve Johnson: (02:10:00)
… are you saying that they’re filling in-
Melissa Carone: (02:10:02)
And I signed something saying that if I’m wrong, I can go to prison. Did you?
Chair Hall: (02:10:07)
Okay, let me-
Rep. Steve Johnson: (02:10:12)
I’m just trying to ask you a legitimate question here.
Chair Hall: (02:10:13)
Yeah, let’s let Representative Johnson ask his question, and then don’t interrupt him. And then if you want to respond to it, that’s fine. Did you have more, Representative?
Rep. Steve Johnson: (02:10:24)
Yeah, I guess I just want to keep following back up with the poll books. Are we saying that the poll book is either wildly off, or that they are-
Melissa Carone: (02:10:31)
Rep. Steve Johnson: (02:10:32)
… filling in names?
Melissa Carone: (02:10:32)
It’s wildly off, and dead people voted, and illegals voted. So that’s my answer.
Chair Hall: (02:10:39)
Okay, I think we’re going to move on. Representative LaGrand?
Rep. LaGrand: (02:10:44)
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So ma’am, can I ask you a simple question?
Melissa Carone: (02:10:48)
Rep. LaGrand: (02:10:49)
When did you convey the narrative? When did you communicate substantially the narrative that you’ve given us today? Do you recall the date that you gave that to the Trump legal team, to Mr. Giuliani and the woman sitting next to him?
Melissa Carone: (02:11:12)
To Mr. Giuliani-
Rep. LaGrand: (02:11:13)
To the team.
Melissa Carone: (02:11:14)
… to them… I’m working with a different attorney.
Rep. LaGrand: (02:11:20)
Well, they’re here with you now, and they heard you and they heard your story, and it’s not the first time they heard it. When did you tell them? When did you give them essentially the narrative you-
Melissa Carone: (02:11:28)
I had that spoken directly to Mr. Giuliani.
Rep. LaGrand: (02:11:29)
Pardon? I’m not asking you to finesse here. I’m asking you, when did you tell them the narrative that you’re telling us now?
Melissa Carone: (02:11:37)
When did I write my first affidavit? November 8th.
Rep. LaGrand: (02:11:39)
Thank you. That’s a great place to start. Thanks.
Melissa Carone: (02:11:42)
Right, but does that answer your question?
Chair Hall: (02:11:44)
I think it does.
Melissa Carone: (02:11:45)
Because it was sent to [Lauren McLogan 02:11:48], and I don’t know if he-
Chair Hall: (02:11:48)
I think we’re good here.
Melissa Carone: (02:11:49)
Chair Hall: (02:11:49)
We’ll move on, so thank you, Representative LaGrand.
Rudy Giuliani: (02:11:53)
[inaudible 02:11:53] clarify for the record. I met her for the first time today, and talked to her for the first time yesterday.
Rep. LaGrand: (02:11:59)
But if you’re saying the affidavit is essentially consistent with her testimony today, and that was submitted on November 8th, that’s great. That’s what I want to know.
Rudy Giuliani: (02:12:07)
I can’t hear you, sir.
Rep. LaGrand: (02:12:09)
That’s okay. I think everybody else could.
Chair Hall: (02:12:13)
I think his statement was, if the affidavit matches the testimony today, you’re good. Is that what you said?
Melissa Carone: (02:12:20)
Of course it matches it.
Chair Hall: (02:12:21)
Okay. All right. With that, I think we’ll move on to our next person, if that’s all right. Thank you for your testimony today.
Rudy Giuliani: (02:12:29)
Andrew [Ceto 02:12:30] and [Hima 00:02:12:30].
Chair Hall: (02:12:31)
Is that right, or are we going to do the colonel?
Rudy Giuliani: (02:12:33)
I thought we’d do Andrew and Hima next together.
Chair Hall: (02:12:36)
Okay, let’s do it.
Rudy Giuliani: (02:12:37)
They’re the two people that she mentioned.
Chair Hall: (02:12:39)
All right. That makes sense, since you mentioned it.
Rudy Giuliani: (02:12:42)
Maybe they can do it together.
Chair Hall: (02:12:43)
All right. And thank you, and-
Rudy Giuliani: (02:12:45)
And then we’ll do the colonel.
Chair Hall: (02:12:46)
Okay, great. I hope that we’re respectful to the representatives here, both the Republicans and the Democrats. I think we’re trying to ask legitimate questions. We’re trying to get to the bottom of what happened. And I know the Senate had seven hours of testimony yesterday. They heard from a lot of people. We’ve asked a few more to come today, but we really, truly have, most of us at least, have genuine questions about what happened. And I think they’re sincere, in many cases. There were a couple that weren’t in the early part, but I know with representative S. Johnson and Representative LaGrand, they were legitimate, fair questions.
Chair Hall: (02:13:29)
So we just want to make sure we’re respectful to the representatives. I’m also asking the representatives be respectful to these people. I mean, these are regular citizens of Michigan [crosstalk 02:13:39] who’ve seen things… Please. Who’ve seen things that they want to talk about. And you know what, it’s pretty intimidating, I’m sure, to come to a legislative committee… Please, please everyone. But it’s difficult to come to a committee like this and to tell your story… Please, everyone. When you come to a committee like this, it can be tough. It can be intimidating. I know these are very hard stories for people to tell. I just ask that we try to be respectful of one another. And also, we don’t want everybody to hear people yelling in the back. So with that, can you please say your names and tell us why you’re here? And we look forward to hearing your stories.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:14:31)
My name is Hima Kolanagireddy.
Andrew Sitto: (02:14:32)
My name is Andrew Sitto.
Chair Hall: (02:14:37)
And can you tell us why you’re here?
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:14:40)
I was a poll challenger, and I got trained by MIGOP and-
Chair Hall: (02:14:45)
Where were you a poll challenger?
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:14:46)
At TCF Center.
Chair Hall: (02:14:47)
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:14:48)
Chair Hall: (02:14:48)
And were you, too?
Andrew Sitto: (02:14:50)
Yes, I was a volunteer at the TCF Center on election night.
Chair Hall: (02:14:53)
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:14:55)
I got trained by MIGOP and also by the election integrity fund, but then I received my credentials from the MIGOP. So on the 3rd of November, I was representing MIGOP on the floor. And all I was doing that day was just stand behind the tabulators. I do IT. I have an IT staffing firm, so IT is my specialty. I was standing behind the tabulator machines, and I could tell right away that most of those people did not know what to do when a ballot gets jammed. And I had to literally stand behind them and say, “You need to discard when a ballot gets jammed.” And just like the previous witness, what she was saying, yes, those tabulators were getting jammed at least, like she said, three or four times an hour.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:15:43)
And if they knew what to do when there is an error, they were doing it right. I mean, to explain to the other person who was asking, when you take the jammed ballot out, you have an option to discard the number. There is a column that’s actually tabulating, that’s incrementally tabulating every time a ballot gets scanned.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:16:03)
And that’s incrementally tabulating every time a ballot gets scanned. So, when a ballot gets jammed, you have an option to go and say discard, then it makes a zero, but you also have an option to continue. So, what happens is when you take one jammed ballot, plus the rest of the ones that got tabulated, and put them through again, feed them, if you say, continue tabulating, it will add to that 24 or 25 that’ve already gone jammed, and then again, re-scan this entire thing.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:16:29)
Like she said, the number only has to be 50. There were machines, at least not the machines I was guarding… I was behind tabulator number five and six, and because I was on top of them, telling them every single time, stepping forward and saying, “You didn’t make it zero,” those machines were doing okay.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:16:48)
But I did come across a couple of other machines where the numbers were 300, 400. It’s not supposed to be, but I could clearly tell that some of those people didn’t know how to discard and start again.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:16:59)
So, was there an overcount? Yes. Was it off by thousands? I can’t tell. I only can tell what I saw, and I witnessed that some people didn’t know what to do when it was getting jammed. I don’t know how much of training they all had, but some people did not know IT.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:17:15)
Similarly, at the counting board, too, where I witnessed this big stack of ballots that came in with a note saying “Not in EPB/S”, which is not in election poll book or system. I didn’t even know that that can even happen, that you can actually have ballots that are not in the poll book or in the system, and still be fed into the system.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:17:37)
These people were manually entering it, and I have the table numbers where this was getting done, like the counting board numbers, and they didn’t know… They were manually feeding it with a birth date of 1900, something. And when I asked the supervisor why they were manually being fed, they said they did not know, they’re only doing their job, and if I have a problem, I could go talk to somebody up there.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:17:59)
But the thing is, they didn’t even know how to unlock the voter record when it gets jammed. Because I’m in IT and I can understand the code behind it, I had to literally help them. I’m like, “You have to go do this, then do that,” and that’s when they knew.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:18:12)
So, I could clearly tell most of these people didn’t have enough training, and they were just [inaudible 02:18:17] honestly doing their job. And whether it was intentional or not, again, I cannot witness to that. I can only tell what I was there for.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:18:25)
And again, I just want to tell everybody here that when we became a poll challenger, our intent was not to get into fights with anybody. I’m an immigrant, and this country gave me a platform to be what I am today. I run a successful IT business. I have one of the fastest 50 growing companies in America, and I really love this country.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:18:45)
When I became a citizen of this country, it was a choice I made. I had to give up my Indian citizenship to become a US citizen. It’s a choice we all make. That’s the country we grew up in, but this is a country we chose to live, so we just have a lot of respect for this country. Putting ourselves out here, it’s not fun. Trying to get our names out there, trying to just intimidate us…
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:19:07)
You have to understand. Coming to a country where we have nobody, and then start our life here, it takes a lot of courage, so we do have courage.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:19:14)
And, especially, for me to do this, it was very scary because I am a very private person. I have no social media accounts. I just like to live a very private life, but I knew what was at stake from what I witnessed at TCF. And my heart broke because I had a lot of respect. I still have a lot of respect for this country, and I don’t believe in racism as the mainstream media narrative.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:19:39)
This country has given me a lot, and I’m very thankful for it. So today, when I’m doing this, it’s not because I’m trying to say who’s good or who’s bad. I’m just saying that this needs to be fixed.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:19:48)
In a country like India, we have a national identification card without which we cannot vote. When we come into this country, we have a retina scan. We have fingerprints, everything, when we’re entering into this country through a border. How is that a vote, which is the single most important thing any person can do, is actually being cast without an ID, without any kind of oversight? And those ballots getting duplicated without an oversight, and all of this fraud that was happening, it was heartbreaking, so that’s why I decided to put myself here.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:20:20)
Another thing that I noticed is that there were Democratic challengers there. I don’t even call them challengers. They were agitators. They were only there with one purpose. When GOP people or nonpartisan people signed up, we were only trying to ensure that there was integrity. Whereas, when Democratic challengers signed up, their only purpose there was to intimidate the GOP people and get them out.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:20:44)
So, that was what was happening on the fourth when I got on the floor. I didn’t have my GOP tag on, so automatically, I was assumed to be a Democrat. And I have seen some women who came, too, and I said, “Let’s get this MFs out.” And she was singing that song.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:21:01)
And for me, I don’t listen to secular music, and these days you can’t even tell what is cussing and what is a song, so I think maybe she was really singing a song. But then when I saw that she was targeting white male Republicans, accusing them of something like your mask slipped, you were not six feet away so you need to go out, and your phone was out, and they were really intimidating all these white people.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:21:24)
And I put myself out there, try to help them saying, “Why are you getting them in trouble?” And they said, “Why are you taking their side?” Then I showed my GOP tag, and then she said to me that I am on the wrong side because I had a GOP tag on. I was literally shocked that somebody can judge me because of my political affiliation and say whether or not I’m on the right side or wrong side. I can think for myself.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:21:52)
Then, at that point, I saw that Republicans were getting escorted, and so many people got escorted that we became pretty scared. We had only one person manning four or five tables because we were so low on numbers.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:22:07)
And there were so many Democratic challengers there, so I just went to Election Integrity Fund and got my nonpartisan tag. And the reason I did that was not because I was not there for my party or trying to do something on behalf of my party. I’m just trying to ensure that the right thing is being done.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:22:24)
So, when I got the nonpartisan tag, at the counting board, the poll workers were very respectful because of my nonpartisan tag. But when I had the GOP tag, the first thing they said is, “Six feet. You know the rule or you will be sent out.” And I’m like, “When I had the nonpartisan tag, a lot of rules didn’t apply to me.” So, that just told me that those poll workers, the democratic challengers, ACLU, and so many other people that were there, their only job there was to block the GOP challengers from doing their job.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:22:54)
And when I was with the nonpartisan tag and talking to Democratic challengers, most of them didn’t even know what to challenge in a ballot. When I asked them a question, when I was asking supervisor a question, those people were literally confused because they didn’t even know what I asking.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:23:10)
And then, when I asked one lady, “Where did you get trained?” she said, “Trained for what?” Because they didn’t know what they were there for. Their only job I could tell there was to block the GOP people from challenging or intimidate them and get them out.
Chair Hall: (02:23:26)
And did you have something to say also about your experience?
Andrew Sitto: (02:23:31)
Yeah, so, because I was a volunteer, I came in for my training around 9:30 PM at the TCF Center. 10 o’clock we went down to the floor. I was stationed by the center of the room. The center of the room they have all the boxes lined up, and then they have one table full of the duplicate ballots, as I’m sure you’re all familiar with duplicate ballots. So, you had a table for duplicate ballots.
Andrew Sitto: (02:23:56)
Throughout the entire night, many employees were conducting theft of duplicate ballots. So, they would come up to the table of duplicate ballots, grab three or four duplicate ballots, run back to their table, give one to another person at another table, and never complete the duplicate process. They would stash the ballots under boxes, and I would have to stand there for about five minutes and just wait for a duplicate process, and they would just look at me, and it was never, ever completed. So, that happened throughout the entire night.
Andrew Sitto: (02:24:28)
Then around 4:30 AM, we had an announcement that a new shipment of ballots were arriving, and these boxes of ballots were brought in by Mr. Baxter himself at 4:30 AM from the rear of the room. So, I, personally, eyewitnessed Mr. Baxter carrying boxes from the rear of the basement of the TCF Center into the tables. So, each box had approximate 600 ballots, and it was a full…
Andrew Sitto: (02:25:01)
What you have to know is that these tables, there’s about seven tables. They were 10 foot tables each. Every table was full of boxes of ballots. It’s not tens of thousands or 20,000s. I approximate 50,000 ballots were brought in. Now, were all of those ballots brought in from the rear entrance to the TCF Center? I don’t know.
Andrew Sitto: (02:25:20)
They were brought in from the TCF Center, but there was a lot more than just the ones that were brought in from the rear entrance of the TCF Center. And I’m talking, this is when we’re starting at 6:00 AM, the 4:35 AM. It was 50,000 ballots on the table, equal to the two rounds that we did before. We did a round around 10:00 PM to about 1:00 AM, and then 1:00 AM to about 4:00 AM. And then, the boxes were brought in from the rear around 4:30, then they have the shift change from around 5:00 to 6:00.
Andrew Sitto: (02:25:51)
So, with the shift change, most of the volunteers were tired at this point. They only expected to be there from 10:00 PM to 5:00 AM, so 90-plus percent of them left at 5:00 AM. I decided to stick around.
Andrew Sitto: (02:26:09)
So, they had the shift change. At 6:00 AM, Mr. Baxter and his management team got back on the microphone and said… This is what the newest shift change, right? The new employees, says, “This is what democracy is supposed to look like,” right in front of everyone. The whole room cheered.
Andrew Sitto: (02:26:26)
So, this is how you know it’s a good sign of a violation that there’s a imbalance of poll workers. This is the new shift. The first shift before that, would say the same thing, but this shift, you can tell it’s, again, another imbalance of poll workers because the whole room cheered.
Andrew Sitto: (02:26:44)
So, based off my sampling of a dozen duplicate ballots from 6:00 AM to about 2:00 PM the next day, because I was doing duplicates, from these duplicate ballots I observed, none of them were for Trump. None of them. And from the other two shifts, or two rounds, that we did earlier, only one ballot that I witnessed from a duplicate was for Trump. So, I’m talking just a dozen off my sampling from that one shift of 6:00 AM to 2:00 PM, none. And throughout the whole time, the whole night, I only saw one. Three other challengers around me told me the same thing from their sampling.
Andrew Sitto: (02:27:25)
So, also we challenged ballots all night. Every challenge was refused. They never carried it out. They never issued challenge ballots. There’s no track, no remedy, no records, no recording of any challenge ballots the entire night. So, we challenged.
Andrew Sitto: (02:27:42)
Poll workers changed duplicate ballots to straight Democrat ticket. So, for example, it would be a mixed ticket. Bubbles filled in everywhere. I, personally, eyewitnessed employees taking their pen and filling in the Democrat straight ticket when it’s not.
Andrew Sitto: (02:27:59)
And so, you’re going to have other people testify that when it goes to adjudication, that they see two different parties filled in. And then, nine times out of 10, you’re also going to have testimony, too, that says that the employees were saying it should go to the Democrats. That’s true. Because there’s 200 tables, 150 tables, however many tables there are, five employees per table, and they all have pens. And I eyewitnessed them writing a ticket for the straight Democrat ticket.
Andrew Sitto: (02:28:25)
So, I also witnessed duplicates of duplicate ballots, which was very strange to me. We were making a duplicate, would take it to back to the tabulator, and again, make another duplicate of the duplicate. I, personally, asked the employees, “Hey, why are we making…? First, verify? Is this a duplicate of a duplicate?” They said yes. I said, “Why? They said, “The tabulator says unknown reasons.” Okay.
Andrew Sitto: (02:28:45)
So then, I also at the tabulators did see the double counting on the jams. I saw that several times. They would take the ballots that were just scanned and just re-scan them again once there would be a jam.
Andrew Sitto: (02:29:02)
And then around 2:00 PM, I leave the room for about five minutes to grab a snack because they’re saying, “Snacks are coming in, go grab a snack. Go ahead.” I leave the room 2:00 PM. The minute I leave the room, they block out the whole room with coverings. They prohibited access back in for me, and they said, “It’s because we’re exceeding COVID capacity.”
Andrew Sitto: (02:29:26)
Now, I’m going to wrap up with this. Mind you, the entire night, this room was slammed. It looked like the New York Stock Exchange on its busiest day.
Andrew Sitto: (02:29:36)
And then at 2:00 PM the next day, after 70% of the employees have already finished their work, they’re leaving, they’re left the room, now they’re in placing the exceeded COVID capacity rules, which was pure discrimination.
Chair Hall: (02:29:56)
All right, thank you.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:29:56)
I just have to add one thing to this, the ballots that were an issue. I was at table 57, where I said that I saw a stack of ballots which had a sticky note on it saying, “Not an EPB/S”. They didn’t know what that meant, but it didn’t take me long to figure out what it meant.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:30:13)
When they would scan a ballot, nothing would come on the system, so they would manually enter these. And that’s when I figured out that they were not even referring to the poll book, so it is EPB/S meaning election poll book or system, so none of these details went in either of those.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:30:31)
And the thing that I said, when I started writing down the ballot numbers and the last names of the person of the ballot that had the name on the ballot, they were all in sequence. These are absentee ballots, mail-in ballots. They cannot be in sequence. 2232 cannot have 2233 next to it, because if they’re mailed in, they come in all different numbers.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:30:56)
And when I started noticing that these numbers are almost next to each other, like one or the other was in the middle, but then they were almost next to each other, my antennas went up. That’s exactly when I thought, “Something is not right here.”
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:31:10)
Then I asked the supervisor, there was not even a date on those envelopes. It said November 0-, 2020. There was no second number there. Then I said, “What is the date on this one?” Then they got really mad at me. They said, “You’re not letting us do our job. You’re disturbing us.” And at that point, because we really don’t want to be kicked out, so we were just not challenging anything because we want to still stay in the room because we barely had anybody.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:31:39)
Not only that, these sequence ballot numbers were all from the same area, like the Goddard Street in the downtown Detroit. Goddard Street, sequential ballots, signatures were all alike, they had no date stamp. It said it was empty after zero. There was no third or second or first or nothing. And none of them were coming up in the system. They were all being entered manually. They even knew that none of these details would even be in the poll book or in the system.
Chair Hall: (02:32:08)
All right. Well, with that, thank you both for your testimony. We’re going to go on to questions now. I’ll start with Representative Steve Johnson.
Representative Steve Johnson: (02:32:19)
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks for being here. I think it’s the most compelling testimony we’ve had tonight.
Representative Steve Johnson: (02:32:24)
You talked about the six foot rule, people being kicked out for that. There was a court case prior to the election dealing with this, and saying that you had to allow a poll challenger to break that six foot rule to verify information.
Representative Steve Johnson: (02:32:39)
All right, I’ve got pretty good eyesight myself. I can’t see someone’s written address from six feet away. So the court case made it very clear that they did have to allow that.
Representative Steve Johnson: (02:32:47)
Now, when you’re not challenging, you have to keep your six feet. Were people allowed to break the six foot rule to challenge? And then my second part, when these Republican challengers were kicked out, were they allowed to be replaced by another one? Because it was very evident that there was plenty of other possible Republican challengers there. Were they replaced by one or not?
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:33:09)
I’ll take the first. You can take the second. The first one, when you said the six foot rule, we were, in fact, given a paper with these rules saying that we can break the six foot rule when we have to challenge a ballot. We even had the printed paper with us, and when we would show it to the supervisor, he’d say, “We are enforcing the rules that we were given. That’s the rule your team that sent you gave you. We don’t have to abide by it because that does not apply to us.”
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:33:37)
And we have to keep low profile, you have to understand, if we don’t want to be kicked out. If you don’t want to… I may not be because I’m brown, but all I’m saying is but that was my trump card that I used all day.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:33:50)
But then, the thing is, that’s not a privilege for a white person, so white people, I could see, were not even daring to ask a question, because if they were even a little bit louder, they would say, “You’re disturbing them, so they need to get out.”
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:34:03)
And you have to understand the table. The poll workers were ganging up with Democrats. They were all in on the same team, and the only people that are being isolated are the white male Republicans, so that-
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:34:18)
Yeah, that’s the racism. If people asked me was I ever treated unfairly? I would say, “Rarely. Come to India. You will know what racism is.” But here? No, I’ve been treated with a lot of respect. Now, I see why people are being treated so much worse than I was ever treated.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:34:35)
So, those people were not able to really loudly challenge because they will get kicked out. They did not want to abide by that rule where we can break that six foot rule to challenge a ballot because they didn’t want to listen to what we had to say.
Andrew Sitto: (02:34:49)
As per the second question, no.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:34:52)
They were not being replaced.
Representative Steve Johnson: (02:34:55)
Republicans were not replaced-
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:34:56)
Representative Steve Johnson: (02:34:56)
… so when a Republican challenger was escorted out, they were not allowed to be replaced by another one?
Andrew Sitto: (02:35:01)
The only ones welcomed in were the media. No challengers from our side, but I would say there was two separate systems. There was our systems, where we were exceeded COVID capacity, fall in line, follow the rules.
Andrew Sitto: (02:35:15)
And then there was the friendly, welcoming, “Oh, you’re the media, come on in. Oh, who are you with? You’re with them. Come on in.”
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:35:23)
Another thing I also have to stay is when the GOP people were getting escorted out, with or without handcuffs-
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:35:32)
… every poll worker and all Democrats stood and clapped, like it was some kind of… They all won a lottery ticket.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:35:39)
And that is exactly when I decided I’m going to do this because that was heartbreaking, because these people were doing a job, a volunteer job. They were not getting paid. They all were leaving their work to be here for their country to ensure election integrity, and they were treated like criminals, and that’s not fair.
That’s not America. That’s illegal.
Chair Hall: (02:36:01)
Rep. Legrande: (02:36:06)
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And if I could just ask you the same question I asked the last witnesses. When did you, if you filed an affidavit here, or when did you first make Trump’s lawyers… When did you give them this story, substantially?
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:36:22)
I didn’t meet any Trump’s lawyers. Because I was working for Election Integrative Fund, I gave my affidavit the same day on November 4th.
Rep. Legrande: (02:36:29)
Okay, so you-
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:36:30)
I don’t know what happened with those affidavits, and I’ve never met anybody from Trump team until… not even now. I haven’t even met anybody yet.
Rudy Giuliani: (02:36:39)
Nice to meet you.
Rep. Legrande: (02:36:39)
Okay, you filed… So, you’re saying you filed an affidavit on this on November 4th?
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:36:44)
Rep. Legrande: (02:36:45)
Okay, thank you.
Chair Hall: (02:36:47)
Thank you, Represent-
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:36:47)
I, in fact, gave all the ballot numbers, the last names, the table number, everything that I observed the same day.
Rep. Legrande: (02:36:52)
Chair Hall: (02:36:53)
Thank you, Representative LaGrand. Next, we’ll go to Representative Reilly.
Speaker 4: (02:36:58)
Question if you don’t know the answer-
Representative Reilly: (02:37:00)
Thank you. Yeah, I just want to try to understand what this was like when somebody tried to challenge a ballot. So, you would say, “I challenge a ballot,” then what would happen after that? What was the series of events?
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:37:12)
Even before the supervisor or the poll worker would respond to the challenge, the Democrats would just pounce and say, “What are you challenging?” And then, when we try to give them what was the basis for challenge, like, as I said, they had no clue because they were not trained. Their only training was to block the GOP people.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:37:33)
So, when we would say, “This is what we are challenging,” they’re clueless, obviously. And then, the poll workers, they would be hostile. And they are like, “We’re not going to stop what we’re doing. If you have a problem, you go take it up with the supervisors.”
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:37:47)
They were all in on it together, so nobody was going to listen to it. Not a single challenge was ever entered, and this was the same thing happened, yeah.
Representative Reilly: (02:37:56)
So, then if you went to the supervisor, he would not do anything?
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:38:00)
No. Nobody would do anything.
Representative Reilly: (02:38:00)
Andrew Sitto: (02:38:02)
So, in addition to that… Thank you. In addition to that, when there was no Democrat challenger, which I witnessed in the minority of times, I would make a challenge, and the head of the table would say, “What’s wrong?” And I would say, “This is wrong.” And they’d say, “No, that’s not wrong.” And I said, “No, I’m challenging it.”
Andrew Sitto: (02:38:26)
So, for example, just one example’s, “I challenge you for filling in the Democrat straight ticket. Can I challenge that?” “No, it’s not a challenge. No document, just push it through.” That’s what they did.
Rep. Legrande: (02:38:40)
Oh, thank you.
Chair Hall: (02:38:43)
Representative CA Johnson.
Representative CA Johnson: (02:38:47)
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, please indulge me. As a woman from the city of Detroit, a woman who has lived… You talk about me now, who has lived in the city of Detroit all of my 62 years, and having spoken with many… And by the way, thank you. Having spoken with many people who worked the TCF or TFC.
Representative CA Johnson: (02:39:27)
[crosstalk 00:23: 35].
Chair Hall: (02:39:34)
All right. Let’s let Representative Johnson continue, and please get to your question, Representative.
Representative CA Johnson: (02:39:41)
I will, I will. So, my question, really, to you, Mr. Chair, I’m going to repeat it again. These people, our guests, are sharing information, just sharing and sharing and speaking and speaking. No one is under oath. The world is watching us right now.
Representative CA Johnson: (02:40:10)
And the world is watching right now, and there are one person after another who’s testifying or who’s making allegations, because that’s exactly what they are, allegations of wrongdoing in the city of Detroit. I wonder, and I’m going to ask you the question. Did you see any cameras at the TCF Center?
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:40:40)
Representative CA Johnson: (02:40:42)
All right, so-
Chair Hall: (02:40:43)
And representative, I just want to remind you, I think it was the purpose of today’s hearing to hear from people across Michigan who witnessed things at the TCF Center. That’s why I’m here.
Representative CA Johnson: (02:40:54)
Well, here, and I’m not going to argue with you about that.
Chair Hall: (02:40:57)
[crosstalk 00:24:56]. That’s why I’m here, so-
Representative CA Johnson: (02:40:58)
So, they’re here, but they’re taking so much time. And I see no Detroiters. There is one Detroiter. It… Stop that.
Chair Hall: (02:41:07)
Please continue, Representative.
Representative CA Johnson: (02:41:09)
And there is one Detroiter, but I have many emails. Since there’s no one who you have in this room to represent Detroiters, except a couple of us in this room, I have emails from Detroiters. We’ve taken, what? Two hours?
Chair Hall: (02:41:31)
Representative, did you have a question? I’m willing-
Chair Hall: (02:41:35)
Please stop yelling-
Representative CA Johnson: (02:41:36)
Chair Hall: (02:41:36)
… people in the audience. Let me handle this. Representative, listen, we’ve had hearings in the past, as you know. We’ll have more hearings.
Chair Hall: (02:41:44)
Today, we’ve invited Mr. Giuliani, and Mr. Giuliani has brought forward witnesses that he says have firsthand knowledge of fraud. That’s what we are doing today. If you want to talk about other hearings-
Representative CA Johnson: (02:41:58)
And if we want to find out if-
Chair Hall: (02:42:00)
Please let me finish?
Representative CA Johnson: (02:42:02)
Chair Hall: (02:42:02)
All right. So, if you want to do other hearings, we’re doing more hearings, but today we’re here to hear from these people. So, do you have a question for these witnesses [crosstalk 02:42:11]?
Representative CA Johnson: (02:42:11)
No, I have some concerns, many concerns, and I want to just share with you what the concerns are.
Chair Hall: (02:42:15)
All right. Well, I’m going to rule you out of order. All right? Out of order. Do you have a point of order?
Representative CA Johnson: (02:42:20)
Chair Hall: (02:42:21)
Do you have a point of order?
Representative CA Johnson: (02:42:23)
Chair Hall: (02:42:23)
What is your point of order?
Representative CA Johnson: (02:42:24)
Point of order is to have them under oath.
Chair Hall: (02:42:29)
You’re out of order. As I’ve said, this is something that is not done here in this state. This is not a court. This is not a court.
Representative CA Johnson: (02:42:35)
It may not be done under the state, but you’re allowing people to come in here and lie, and I know they’re lying.
Chair Hall: (02:42:42)
Representative, you’re out of order. I’ve indulged you, but you’re out of order and we’re going to move on.
Rudy Giuliani: (02:42:50)
On behalf of my witnesses, I would like to point out-
[crosstalk 02:42:54] you protect [crosstalk 02:42:54].
Rudy Giuliani: (02:42:54)
… that every single witness we’ve presented here has sworn an affidavit as to all of these facts.
Representative CA Johnson: (02:43:02)
Chair Hall: (02:43:04)
Representative, please. I gave you some room there, but we’re going to move on. We’re going to go-
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:43:10)
May I say something please?
Chair Hall: (02:43:12)
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:43:13)
If that is what you want me to do, I would do it, and I will still repeat the exact same thing I watched. And you know what? I also want to say one thing. If it is a lie, it may change because a liar has to have a lot of memory power. If it is truth, you can ask me in the middle of the night and it’ll still be the same.
Chair Hall: (02:43:33)
All right, I’m going to take us here. Please, stop. We’re going to move on now to Representative LaFave.
Rep. Lefave: (02:43:40)
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate it very much. Audience members, we’re not going to be able to get to the end of this if we continue with interruption-
Chair Hall: (02:43:49)
Rep. Lefave: (02:43:49)
… so I would ask them a little bit more patience with us. I have two questions, as we have two witnesses. Hope that’s okay, Mr. Chairman.
Chair Hall: (02:43:56)
If they are relevant questions, I will let you proceed.
Rep. Lefave: (02:43:59)
If they’re not relevant. Mr. Chairman, please rule me out of order. I would appreciate it.
Rep. Lefave: (02:44:04)
Question number one, as I heard from… Could you say your name again?
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:44:09)
[Heema Kolanagharade 02:44:10].
Rep. Lefave: (02:44:11)
Heema, thank you.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:44:11)
You want to try that?
Rep. Lefave: (02:44:12)
I’m going to try it once. I’m not going to try it twice because I’ve got a bad memory.
Rep. Lefave: (02:44:18)
I heard that there are sequential ballots from one street called Goddard Street? That have no dates.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:44:27)
Rep. Lefave: (02:44:28)
Approximately how many, would you say?
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:44:33)
Each box would have 50 ballots. There were about two, three to three boxes there. I was already tired because we had no chairs, so I took down…
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:44:45)
After 20, 25 names, there’s no point because you can see what’s going on, so I immediately wrote down all these details, gave a sworn affidavit to Election Integrity Fund, and I said, “This is what I witnessed. These are the names. These are the ballot numbers, and this is the…” Not the address, but then I told them that it’s… Goddard Street is something that just stood out because you can see it on a highway, so I know that name.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:45:08)
I’m like, “I don’t even know what’s happening.” And we were told not to challenge anything at that point because they said this entire process needs to be challenged, so don’t challenge. Try to stay in, try not to get kicked out, so that’s what I was doing.
Rep. Lefave: (02:45:20)
Very helpful. Thank you.
Rep. Lefave: (02:45:22)
Andrew, approximately how many duplicate ballots did you see in general? And then, if you could, approximately how many of those duplicate ballots, and these are your words, not mine, do you believe were stolen or taken off of the table and brought to places that you believe they shouldn’t have been brought to?
Andrew Sitto: (02:45:48)
So, as my responsibility to stand in the center of the room by the duplicate table, an employee would come up and need a duplicate ballot, right?
Andrew Sitto: (02:46:00)
For example, just a layman’s term, let’s say there’s a coffee stain on the ballot, right? Which none of these ballots had any real issues. From as far as I know, they’re all tabulator issues.
Andrew Sitto: (02:46:11)
But they would come grab a ballot, and my responsibility was to follow them to their table, to be the challenger, to observe over it. So, there would be me, there’d be the workers, and there would be a Democrat challenger, and we would observe over it.
Andrew Sitto: (02:46:27)
Throughout the entire time I volunteered, I would say between two dozen to three dozen. And there were times where we had people stationed around the room, and so, if there was someone was stationed, like a Michigan GOP, a volunteer, right? Was in a specific area, I would tell that employee, “Hey, watch over this duplicate ballot because I need to run back to the center of the room in case someone steals more ballots again.” So they would do that.
Andrew Sitto: (02:46:57)
And if no one was there, then I would watch over it. And I watched over maybe two to three dozen throughout the whole night. So, that’s the first part of the question.
Andrew Sitto: (02:47:06)
The duplicate theft started in the beginning of the night. Roughly 10:30 PM, 10:15 PM, I saw theft of duplicate ballots where they would grab three, four, so no clear number. The number that I saw was probably, in the first shift, I would say over a half a dozen easy.
Andrew Sitto: (02:47:28)
Second shift, it was more hectic, and I would say, roughly, the same thing, but you’re also to take and consider that the third shift from 6:00 AM to 2:00 PM the next day, and also the 1:00 AM shift because people were leaving at 2:00 AM, and 1:00 AM. They wouldn’t have stayed until 5:00 AM because were less people volunteering because they’re weeding off, that the table was guarded less and do we have less people? So, there’s more opportunity for theft. Does that help a little bit?
Rep. Lefave: (02:48:06)
Absolutely. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chair Hall: (02:48:09)
Thank you. Representative Camilleri.
Representative Camilleri: (02:48:11)
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, if what you’re saying about the tabulation of ballots is true and that some of these ballots were counted multiple times, why is it that there are not more ballots than those who are tabulated in our poll book?
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:48:28)
I do not know how your system works. One thing I know is there were several ballots that were not in the poll book or in the system and they were being entered manually. So, how are you finally taking a tally of it? I do not know that. All I’m here to tell is what I witnessed. I do not know end of the day how you put all of this data together and how you come up with the number, and if it’s tallied like a balance sheet, great. I don’t think we would be here if that tallied. My best guess is it did not, so that’s why we are going through all this.
Representative Camilleri: (02:48:58)
So, what I’m saying is that, in total, the registered number of voters in Detroit is about 500,000 around. The total ballots cast was around 250,000.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:49:05)
Representative Camilleri: (02:49:06)
And so, we don’t see multiples here, and that many other people have alleged that there were far more people who voted than those who live in the city of Detroit, and that just does not add up. It just doesn’t add up.
Chair Hall: (02:49:18)
Thank you, Representative. And I think you… Thank you.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:49:19)
That was not part of my testimony. I w-
Representative Camilleri: (02:49:21)
I know. I know. I know. Thank you.
Chair Hall: (02:49:21)
I think you asked a question, and she said she wasn’t familiar.
Representative Camilleri: (02:49:25)
I’m good, thank you.
Chair Hall: (02:49:26)
Okay. With that, I think… We appreciate it. I did want to ask you, though. Both of you have been there on the front lines. You’ve been there in the TCF Center. You’ve talked today about what you’ve witnessed. Do you have any suggestions for us as legislators on policies or things that we should look at in terms of how do we prevent some of these things from happening to people like you again in the future? Have you put any thought into that? If you were to see new laws or…
Chair Hall: (02:50:03)
Have you put any thought into that? If you were to see new laws or things that need to be looked at in terms of preventing in the next election some of these things from happening at the TCF center?
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:50:14)
I would give you my perspective as being an outsider. I come from a country where a lot of things go wrong. Our countries are known for corruption. But when it comes to elections, there is from what I’ve seen here to what we used to do back in India, it is a lot more organized now because we have a identification system. And the fact that now, as the other representative said, that you can actually show up and vote without an ID, it’s shocking.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:50:45)
How can you allow that to happen? A lot of people think all Indians look alike. I think all Chinese look alike. So how would you tell if some [inaudible 02:50:56] shows up, you can be anybody and you can vote. And if somebody with my name, you can’t even tell my name. Anybody can vote on my behalf. So ID should be the basic requirement.
Chair Hall: (02:51:08)
Please, let’s let her testify, everyone. We want to allow the witnesses to speak. Thank you.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:51:15)
ID should be the basic thing. And there should be a cutoff date as to when you can request a mail-in ballot. It can’t be like you can show up the same day and request it and get it the same day. The whole purpose of the ballot is defeated.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:51:28)
I think you can put a lot of measures, maybe put policies that this does not get repeated. Because … And again, the fact that there was not a Republican present on every counting board, that was also shocker. A lot of people I know from my own church, they wanted to work as a poll worker, but they were told that the positions were full so they don’t need any more Republicans. If only there was a Republican present at every table, maybe a lot of this would have been avoided.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:51:53)
And also I think that the whole vitriol of the entire poll workers that were there, that to me was a shocking thing. I would expect a lot more respect. These are all fellow Americans. If it was to an immigrant like me, at least maybe it’s understandable. But these are all fellow Americans. Why would you hate them just because of their political affiliation? Maybe that could change.
Hima Kolanagireddy: (02:52:17)
We’re talking a lot about hate, BLM, and everything. How about we also just extend it to the white males or whoever is being also treated very … That’s discrimination what I notice and this is an outsider perspective.
Chair Hall: (02:52:32)
Do you want to answer the question? Do you have any suggestions for us?
Andrew Sitto: (02:52:40)
[crosstalk 02:52:40] I’ll be brief.
Chair Hall: (02:52:40)
[crosstalk 02:52:40] Yeah.
Andrew Sitto: (02:52:40)
I mean, simply we just can’t let it happen. The way we do it is up to you and that can change. You have to think about law changes over time and it’s going to continue changing for the next thousands of years, but we simply can’t let this happen. Because if we don’t let this happen, then reality will change for the next thousands of years.
Andrew Sitto: (02:53:02)
So I would suggest maybe better enforcement immediately after the election, because clearly we’re now heading into December. We don’t want to cut it this close. We need in the short term a body that can say the day after the election, two days after the election, “Oh, there’s 20,000 dead voters. Wipe them out immediately.” And this should be apolitical, not political. They’re just clearly dead. Have the database enforce it. Why are dead voters still … They’re certified now. And I’m not trying to make a political statement, but we certified that knowingly.
Chair Hall: (02:53:42)
Thank you. Well, I know you both are very brave coming here today and I understand it’s shocking the things that you’ve said today about what you’ve witnessed at the TCF center. So thank you both for your testimony. We appreciate it.
Chair Hall: (02:53:58)
And now Mr. Giuliani, I think we’ll move on to the Colonel here.
Andrew Sitto: (02:54:05)
[crosstalk 02:54:05] Thank you Chairman.
Chair Hall: (02:54:05)
All right. Colonel Phil Waldron is here. Please, when you’re ready, Mr. Waldron. Can you explain why you’re here, what your background is, your expertise? And when you’re ready, please begin.
Colonel Waldron: (02:54:25)
Ladies and gentlemen, I’m here to look at some statistical analysis. I worked with a team that’s been looking at the voter manipulation, election manipulation since November of ’18.
Colonel Waldron: (02:54:39)
I started looking at this issue in August of this year doing a deep dive on on several key areas with some of the electronic voting machine companies. And we started looking at some of the vulnerabilities that have been mentioned on the floor of the US Congress and Senate that have been widely published in publicly available documentaries.
Colonel Waldron: (02:55:06)
So we began looking at the problems immediately after the election doing analysis on anomalies in the data. And then we also looked at, did some forensics on a couple of locations up in Northern Michigan and Central Lake Township and Antrim. And then talked to folks at Star Township. And all this information is in affidavits as well. Sworn affidavits.
Colonel Waldron: (02:55:38)
In a nutshell, we began to look at anomalies in the voting systems. We looked at publicly available information from your state. First thing we noticed was there are 643 precincts in Michigan with a voter turnout above 80%, which is a little bit anomalous. There were 21 precincts that were over 90%, 10 precincts that had exactly 100% voter turnout and 6 precincts that were over 120% voter turnout.
Colonel Waldron: (02:56:18)
So as we began to look at that, my team focused on anomalous patterns where votes were entered in an amount of time that was physically impossible for the tabulation machines to process the votes. And so we found four spikes in the analysis that exceeded the tabulation machine’s ability to process that amount of votes in a timeline. And that was in Kent County, McComb County, Oakland County and Wayne County. And again this data was from dominion and published in open source.
Colonel Waldron: (02:57:02)
So those anomalies pointed us to a couple of other things that some of your previous witnesses who I just heard tonight, but the incremental absentee vote punches, there was a big move from 6:52 on the morning of the fourth 16,000 absentee votes were processed. Between 6: 52 and 7:49 local time on the 4th, an additional 213,429 absentee votes were processed. And this aligns with some of the observations that the previous witnesses made.
Colonel Waldron: (02:57:44)
And then at 11:15 that same morning at a time period of about 8 minutes, which correlates to the time our previous witness Ms. Jesse testified, there was 56,098 votes processed in an 8 minute period.
Colonel Waldron: (02:58:05)
Each one of these machines can process about 20,000 votes an hour. So you can do the math yourself or it’s in our affidavit. So the anomalous activity led us to believe that just looking at the data that there were red flags for fraudulent activities. And we have subsequently asked for our team or someone else to do the forensic analysis to determine exactly what happened with those votes in those spikes that could not have been mathematically processed with the amount of machines that were present in the facilities.
Colonel Waldron: (02:58:47)
Our team also went up to Northern Michigan to the Central Lake Township. We do have an affidavit from Ms. Judith [Kozlowski 00:02:59:36]. While we were up there she had a re-tabulation and showed a pretty significant amount of change in the votes. We published an affidavit with those key elements that showed differences in the data, the data runs and the tapes. And I believe I’ve provided that to you as well. And then a declaration by Robert Marsh, Star Township supervisor, a couple of the excerpts. When he said “Upon examining the tape at the close of the polls, I could see that President Trump had clearly won the Presidential Ration Star Township.” He said, “I believe the numbers were 462 for president Trump with Joe Biden receiving 161 votes. Normally when a candidate has such a large lead, it’s safe to assume who the winner would be. Early the next morning my wife received a phone call from a friend asking what happened to Antrim County going blue, meaning Democrat. At 7:36 that morning I was texting our stats representative Tristan Cole to find out if those were the actual results. At the time, Tristan advised me that the numbers were not right, that Antrim County was reporting 462 votes had been credited Joe Biden and President Trump had only received 10 votes.”
Colonel Waldron: (03:00:24)
So we saw numerous examples of numbers moving, numbers being flipped and switched. And as you realize that the Antrim County is where the 6,000 vote glitch occurred. And if you look at the numerous references and the guidelines for elections and the Help America vote act the Federal Election Commission Voting System Standards and the Federal Information Security Modernization Act, an error rate is permissible for one out of a hundred and twenty-five thousand ballots.
Colonel Waldron: (03:01:06)
And if you look at just what happened in Antrim County, the error rate was 8.3. So it’s puts it about 750 times the allowable limit. And according to the regulations that should have disqualified, they went later and changed that from a glitch to a clerical error, which they kind of changed up the reporting on that a little bit.
Colonel Waldron: (03:01:39)
In a nutshell we’ve found several other things using open source data. There is a gentleman named Eric [Letson 03:01:47] and he has matched up a list. He started looking at voters above the age of 80 that were registered for voting and did vote in Michigan. And 17,327 Michigan voters also had a corresponding obituary. And I didn’t print that whole thing out, but I can give you that website for the tabular data. And it’s about 350 pages or so.
Colonel Waldron: (03:02:20)
So in the essence of time, I’ll close it out. Be happy to chat to if there’s any other specific information that I can provide to you about our findings.
Chair Hall: (03:02:33)
Sir, thank you. So I just want to understand, I mean I think you know we-
Rudy Giuliani: (03:02:43)
[crosstalk 03:02:43] A little more about Dominion.
Chair Hall: (03:02:44)
Was there something you were going to add?
Rudy Giuliani: (03:02:46)
I was going to ask him to spend a few minutes on Dominion.
Chair Hall: (03:02:49)
[crosstalk 03:02:49] Okay.
Rudy Giuliani: (03:02:49)
He knows quite a bit about it and he’s one of the few people that has examined their machine.
Chair Hall: (03:02:54)
Okay. Well, let me ask my question and then we’ll ask you about dominion too. But I just wanted to understand. So we had the Antrim County clerk in here, and we had her testify earlier within the last few weeks. And one thing that I found from her testimony is that she seemed not to be very well-trained. Her clerks locally did not seem to be very well-trained and they basically they didn’t seem to know how to work their machines.
Chair Hall: (03:03:28)
They didn’t seem to run the proper tests from the testimony that would have discovered the mistakes. And then when the election happened and we saw this 6,000 votes that went for Biden and Congressman Bergman found that and reported it and then they looked at it and they said, “What happened here?” And she said it was a technical glitch or whatever she said.
Chair Hall: (03:03:55)
Well that came from her office. And now a few days later or whatever it was she alleged it was human error. And that’s what she said later. So based on that, I mean, what we have to go on in this committee is the testimony we’ve heard. And based on what she said, that looked like it was human error. If we go off what she said, she said that the tape matched, she said, this would have been discovered in a canvas because the tape matched. So I just wanted to hear if you have knowledge of this, if there’s anything you can speak to on this. Because, that was the conclusion that I had come to after hearing her that this was limited to Antrim County. And again, like I said, Dominion won’t come in. So I don’t know more. But I know in Antrim County it sure seemed like the clerk there didn’t know what she was doing and that caused a lot of this problem and confusion. So can you tell us more about what you’ve learned and address that for me? Thank you.
Colonel Waldron: (03:05:05)
Yes. Our forensics team went up to the Central Lake Township.
Chair Hall: (03:05:13)
And can you clarify, is that an Antrim County?
Colonel Waldron: (03:05:15)
It is an Antrim County. And this was included in the forensics report on Central Lake Township in Antrim Michigan. The report date was November 29th of 2020. And on the 27th, the ASOP Forensics Team, which is Allied Security Operations Group forensics team visited the Central Lake Township in Michigan. The clerk presented the two separate paper totals tape from the tabulator with identification ID 2, Tabulator ID 2. One was dated Pole opened in November 3rd, 0 6 38 48, which was Roll 1. And the second dated poll open November 6, 2020 0 9 21 58, which was Roll 2. Ms. Kozlowski-
Chair Hall: (03:06:07)
May I ask you, what does that mean? So what were the two dates? There were two tapes?
Colonel Waldron: (03:06:13)
[crosstalk 03:06:13] The actual poll date November 3rd, and then the second on November 6.
Chair Hall: (03:06:17)
And there were two tapes?
Colonel Waldron: (03:06:19)
Two tapes. They ran the ballots and printed roll two. She was asked by the County clerk’s office to come in and do a re-tabulation on the sixth.
Chair Hall: (03:06:29)
Okay. So there was one run through and a ticket printed and we went through that with the clerk. There’s a ticket that shows a result.
Colonel Waldron: (03:06:36)
Correct. And it had been re-tabulated.
Chair Hall: (03:06:37)
[crosstalk 03:06:37] On November 3rd, on election day.
Colonel Waldron: (03:06:38)
Then a re-tabulation.
Chair Hall: (03:06:40)
On November 6th.
Colonel Waldron: (03:06:41)
Chair Hall: (03:06:41)
And you’re saying that was ordered by the County Clerk?
Colonel Waldron: (03:06:45)
By the County Clerk’s office. She said she was notified by Connie Wing of the County Clerk’s office and asked to bring the tabulator and balance to the County Clerk’s office for re tabulation.
Chair Hall: (03:06:55)
Okay. So what did you find when you looked at that?
Colonel Waldron: (03:06:59)
They ran … Roll 1 had a total of 1,494 total votes. Roll 2 had 1,491 votes. They had 3 less ballots because 3 ballots were damaged in the re-tabulation process. So Ms. Kozlowski said that she entered assistant manually refilled out the three ballots, curing them and ran them through a ballot counting system. But the final numbers did not reflect the inclusion of those three ballots. So the shifts in the votes from tape one, or roll 1 to roll 2 on election night, President Trump received 566 votes, Vice-president Biden received 340 votes. On the recount Trump had one less vote at 565 while Biden was unchanged at 340.
Colonel Waldron: (03:07:50)
The other areas on the down-ballot, where we saw a lot of different number shift was a proposed ordinance to authorize marijuana and then a retail establishment within the village of Central Lake. So those were the ballot proposal for to authorize marijuana, went from not passing to passing by shifting votes and when the recount, the three ballots were not counted, the proposal passed with one vote.
Colonel Waldron: (03:08:26)
And then for school board, even though this was a ranked voting, and the top two apparently were going to be elected. There was a significant number of votes. There were 742 votes added to this total. Between the election there were 1,068 votes. And then on the recount, there were 1,810 votes that showed 112 write in candidates. The school board member shifts were significant as well as there was a change in the state proposal, 20-1. There was a change in those numbers.
Colonel Waldron: (03:09:13)
So the way that works, the township clerk was given to compact flashcards, a security key. One of the compact flashcards is known as the ISD card. So it goes into the administrator slot. And then the CF card goes into the poll worker slot. And then there’s a security key that’s used on the security key.
Colonel Waldron: (03:09:35)
So Ms. Kozlowski was given the cards that were in proper retention and reran the tapes. The difference in the administrator card which is the software load, the poll numbers were pretty much the same but votes in between those two runs shifted. So there is a discrepancy in the forensics.
Rudy Giuliani: (03:09:59)
How did you find that?
Colonel Waldron: (03:10:02)
Rudy Giuliani: (03:10:03)
Colonel Waldron: (03:10:03)
In the actual tapes? In the tabulation tapes.
Rudy Giuliani: (03:10:06)
[crosstalk 03:10:06] Is that one machine?
Colonel Waldron: (03:10:07)
One machine? Yes.
Rudy Giuliani: (03:10:08)
It made that many mistakes.
Colonel Waldron: (03:10:09)
They made a lot of mistakes.
Rudy Giuliani: (03:10:10)
Did it do anything right?
Colonel Waldron: (03:10:12)
It kept pretty close to the other votes, but it did not meet with the standards of the Federal Election Commission.
Rudy Giuliani: (03:10:20)
Colonel Waldron: (03:10:21)
We have not examined forensically in this election more than this machine. It’s pretty much been blocked.
Chair Hall: (03:10:32)
Colonel Waldron: (03:10:33)
[crosstalk 03:10:33] This definitely is far outside the limits of the 1 in 250,000 vote error rate.
Chair Hall: (03:10:40)
Rudy Giuliani: (03:10:42)
[crosstalk 03:10:42] Based on that would you have a [inaudible 03:10:43]
Colonel Waldron: (03:10:45)
Chair Hall: (03:10:46)
Just to understand. So, what the clerk has said is that and I heard you say there were two tapes and then you kind of went through how there were some differences on the two tapes. What the clerk has said is that there was a problem basically with the way the count was displayed on the website, but that when they looked at the tape, that the count was accurate and that would have been caught in the canvas. Do you agree with that? Or do you disagree?
Colonel Waldron: (03:11:17)
So the votes were canvased on election night according to Miss Kozlowski and approved. And for some reason that she did not know she was asked to come back in to redo. This is the declaration of Ms. Judith L. Kozlowski and it’s signed and dated. And this declaration is under penalty of perjury.
Colonel Waldron: (03:11:49)
She said “On November 5th, I was contacted by … On election night we closed the polls after the absentee ballots have entered into the tabulator. We take our ISD cards to the machine and take them the security fob and the results of the electronic poll book to the County Clerk’s office that night.”
Colonel Waldron: (03:12:06)
She said, “I received my ISD cards when I went to the County building and received my precinct kits from Connie Wing prior to the election, and never received, nor was made aware of an update as I did not need any updates. On Thursday, November 5th, I was contacted by Connie Wing of the County Clerk’s office and asked that I bring my tabulated locked ballot container and tabulator to the clerk’s office for re tabulation.
Colonel Waldron: (03:12:28)
Because of time constraints a re-tabulation did not occur and I was asked to return on Friday, November 6th. I was given the ISD cards and security fob. We set it up and the re tabulation began at 9:00. We finished at 8:55. The re-tabulation was done in the presence of the Antrim County board of canvassers and the Antrim County Sheriff, along with the Deputy Clerk, Patricia Marshall.
Colonel Waldron: (03:12:47)
At the completion of the re-tabulation all the voted ballots from November 3rd, I asked that the board of canvassers was ready for me to close the poll and run the tally tape, which I did. It was at this time that I noticed a number of votes cast on November 6th had changed from the tape on November 3rd.
Colonel Waldron: (03:13:04)
So I stated to the board that the numbers had changed. The board did not respond to my comment. To this date I still do not know why Central Lake Township was the only township that had to re-tabulate. Other township clerks asked me why I had to do this, and I could not explain.”
Colonel Waldron: (03:13:19)
And that is bullet item number five on her declaration. So that’s what I know.
Chair Hall: (03:13:24)
Okay. Thank you. Well, next we’ll go to representative Steve Johnson.
Steve Johnson: (03:13:31)
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Rudy Giuliani: (03:13:32)
Colonel Waldron: (03:13:32)
Steve Johnson: (03:13:35)
So in your analysis you talked about how the number of votes coming in were at a rate higher than they could actually processed through the machines.
Colonel Waldron: (03:13:44)
Steve Johnson: (03:13:44)
And this is after the polls have closed?
Colonel Waldron: (03:13:47)
This … Yes, sir. This is …
Andrew Sitto: (03:13:51)
So, so forgive my ignorance here, but the way I understood it is that the numbers don’t get counted one by one. A precinct will count all their ballots and then they submit all their numbers. So the fact that there’s a lot of numbers coming in within a short period of time, isn’t because a bunch of ballots all of sudden got counted, it’s because machines from all over the state that had been counting for hours all day long, finally decided to upload their information.
Andrew Sitto: (03:14:18)
I don’t know. Am I missing something here? That’s how I always understood how these things work is I live in the city of Wayland. I go I vote. I think seven to eight o’clock they shut down. They do everything and then they upload it. They didn’t all of a sudden run through a thousand votes. No, those a thousand votes were counted over hours and hours.
Colonel Waldron: (03:14:38)
So the timeline of the reporting, which is it’s got timestamps on the data, files, the data logs, where it’s upgraded, uploaded. Those show for spikes that total 384,000 votes in a combined interval of two hours and 38 minutes. So those-
Steve Johnson: (03:15:00)
But why is that not possible? Because they’re not running 300,000 ballots through that quickly. That’s just for machines from around the state. So if you have the city Detroit with 250,000, obviously Detroit came in later, but hypothetically there’s big cities in Michigan, big precincts and they start filing at the same time. It seems like that’s actually quite logical that you would have a lot coming in a short amount of time.
Steve Johnson: (03:15:23)
As someone who is a political candidate, as I watched the numbers come in, usually there’s nothing, nothing, nothing. And then all sudden you get a bunch of spikes. Oh, we got the city of Candlewood. Oh we got Gaines township. You start seeing things come in. I don’t think that’s proof of a fraud or anything. I think that’s just how it works. Am I missing something here?
Colonel Waldron: (03:15:40)
So if you look at the total number of machines and the machines can count about 2000 ballots per hour per machine, the calculation, some would deal about, a hundred thousand ballots as a maximum number of ballots that could be processed [crosstalk 00:26:01].
Andrew Sitto: (03:15:55)
[crosstalk 03:15:55] But they’re not processing that ballot and the timeframe they’ve been processing those ballots all day long, they are just uploading the total number at that time.
Colonel Waldron: (03:16:03)
Well, they’re actually uploaded at various intervals along that timeline throughout the day.
Andrew Sitto: (03:16:10)
[crosstalk 03:16:10] Wait say that again?
Colonel Waldron: (03:16:12)
They’re uploading those results across that timeline throughout the day.
Andrew Sitto: (03:16:20)
I don’t think that’s accurate. I don’t think they upload results until after everything is done. I mean, that’s actually a pretty big deal in Republican at least. We’ve actually been very clear. You don’t start reporting the balance until everything is done, everything is closed out. So I don’t think that’s actually accurate.
Andrew Sitto: (03:16:35)
If that is accurate, that’s something we need to look into that they are continuously uploading the numbers throughout the day. But that’s not my understanding.
Colonel Waldron: (03:16:42)
So if you look the Edison Data provided to New York Times, it shows pretty much of a continual upload throughout the day. And then there are spikes that occur at specific times that are bumped loads. But I can provide this to you.
Steve Johnson: (03:17:02)
Chair Hall: (03:17:03)
The question is, did you give us that? Because I know you gave us a packet, that’s not in it?
Colonel Waldron: (03:17:07)
It should be in the affidavit that I provided to you Mr. Chairman.
Chair Hall: (03:17:11)
[crosstalk 03:17:11] Okay. I don’t have that. Did he answer your question?
Steve Johnson: (03:17:14)
Chair Hall: (03:17:14)
Okay. Next we’ll go to Representative Camilleri.
Rep. Camilleri: (03:17:20)
I’ll pass. Thank you.
Chair Hall: (03:17:22)
Thank you. All right. Representative LaFave.
Rep. Lafave: (03:17:26)
Yeah. Thank you. Representative Johnson. If you and I agree on the thing you were just talking about that could be a real problem if something is different. But Colonel I’ve got, tell me if I’m wrong, 10 precincts in the state you believe voted at a hundred percent approximately.
Colonel Waldron: (03:17:49)
That was according to data from the state. Yes, sir.
Steve Johnson: (03:17:53)
Six precincts at above a hundred percent.
Colonel Waldron: (03:17:56)
Steve Johnson: (03:17:57)
Add those up for me about how many votes is that?
Colonel Waldron: (03:18:01)
We just looked at voter turnout. So I didn’t add up the votes from those priests.
Steve Johnson: (03:18:05)
You think you could send me an email and let me know the total number of votes there?
Chair Hall: (03:18:10)
Why don’t we’ll have them send it to the committee. We’ll work with that. We can send it to the clerk. Continue Rep. Lafave. Did he answer your question?
Steve Johnson: (03:18:22)
Yes. Thank you, Chair.
Chair Hall: (03:18:23)
Okay. All right. And I wanted to … We had talked about Dominion. Was there something that you wanted to discuss about Dominion? I understand that perhaps you’ve examined these machines. I know for us, we can’t get Dominion to come in and testify. And one thing that I would like to do is examine the machines to understand. Because my belief is that if we could look at the machines, if we could examine their software, we’d have a good idea then of whether all this stuff is true or not.
Chair Hall: (03:18:54)
But the problem that I have is that because Dominion won’t come in, they won’t testify, they won’t provide us machines, they won’t do these things, it’s hard for me to wrap around this Dominion theory. Because basically we’re going off of what people are saying, and we’re hearing nothing from Dominion. So, as we’re investigating, I think that would be very valuable to us. But from what I understand, you’ve looked at this. So what can you tell us about the Dominion voting system?
Colonel Waldron: (03:19:25)
We began looking at these companies. As I mentioned, the team that we joined that had begun studying this back in 2018 after the Kentucky Governor’s race and then several races in Texas with the ESNS machines. We started looking at the lineage of these companies and the code to the software. And they really seem all go to go back to SGO Smartmatic. They do have licensure agreements between Smartmatic and Dominion, between Smartmatic and ESNS, which is another major voting machine.
Colonel Waldron: (03:20:04)
And really the code, the core of these voting systems are rife with vulnerabilities. I was an information warfare officer. So I looked at ways to penetrate, defeat and corrupt other systems, whether it was through electronic warfare, through other means. And these systems are highly vulnerable to penetrations at multiple levels throughout the system. The easiest way, and the most discreet way is a USB drives.
Colonel Waldron: (03:20:43)
In classified systems In the military, I worked with both secret and top secret and other special access programs. All those machines had the USB drives deactivated. You could not use them just because of the critical vulnerability. These machines all work off of USB drives.
Colonel Waldron: (03:21:03)
And so really we’ve found in dealing with Pennsylvania and in Arizona, there is no control. There is no chain of custody in the USB drives. Workers can stick the USB drive in. We could stick a USB drive into any of your laptops. You don’t know what’s on there and you can change software. You can change operating systems with the USB drives.
Colonel Waldron: (03:21:27)
And the core of these systems is manipulability. This is the operator’s manual. And the implementation statement for 5.1, one of the myths that has been propagated even by the director of CISA at Homeland security, which is the Cybersecurity And Infrastructure Security Agency, is that, well, these machines are not connected to the internet. In the operator’s manual there’s a whole page of references. It show you how and when to connect and what selectors to connect to servers and to routers.
Colonel Waldron: (03:22:03)
So it is connected to the internet. That’s how you get election night reporting. That’s through another company called Clarity Elections. They provide early reporting to the news media. Matter of fact, as I was looking at one of the counties where I saw the spike, I believe it was Oakland County, I was going to the Oakland County, the 2020 elections results. And I clicked on the elections results and a warning flag pops up to the right side. And it says, you’re leaving this domain. You were going to clarityelections./mi.
Colonel Waldron: (03:22:43)
So the information for the counties in your state isn’t really maintained your owned by your County and state, but rather a corporation that’s owned by SOE software and SCYTL which is a Madrid Spain corporation. It went bankrupt in May of 2020 and was purchased by another UK registered company.
Colonel Waldron: (03:23:10)
So we’ve recently found, and we’re digging further, that there was a $400 million financial transaction to Dominion voting systems in October one month before our election. We’re digging into that, but we know through some of the leaked information from the Panama banking system that SGO, Smartmatic and Dominion, both share a physical address in a small building in Barbados as a registered headquarters.
Colonel Waldron: (03:23:47)
So these companies share licensing agreements, they share a common core. Their DNA is the code, is the software, and I’ll be happy to provide you an electronic copy of this operator’s manual. And when you read through here.
Colonel Waldron: (03:24:03)
… brought a copy of this operator’s manual, and when you read through here and you can see all the options that administrators and operators of these systems have, like some of the previous witnesses mentioned, they can vote blank ballots. They can delete data. They can blank. They can mass adjudicate write-in ballots, so it is designed to be inaccurate. It’s designed to, if an individual or a team of individuals had a maligned purpose, this would be the tool that I would want to use.
Chair Hall: (03:24:40)
Can I ask you-
Speaker 5: (03:24:41)
Tell them the history of Smartmatic. When did it start? Where did it start, and what was it developed to do?
Colonel Waldron: (03:24:49)
Smartmatic was designed, developed in Venezuela. Hugo Chavez was the president, and basically he invested, I believe 28% of the money to fund Smartmatic and to control the Venezuelan elections. I personally debriefed the son of a Cuban intelligence officer who was at dinner with two of Hugo Chavez’s relatives when Maduro’s election was in question due to the populist uprising in Venezuela, and they told him, the son of the Cuban intelligence officer, “Don’t worry. It’s guaranteed. Our father invested the money to SGO.”
Speaker 5: (03:25:29)
And have they been involved in numerous elections that have been questioned as to the integrity of the election?
Colonel Waldron: (03:25:39)
Numerous elections in Central America, the South Pacific and Europe.
Speaker 5: (03:25:47)
And are they allied with Dominion?
Colonel Waldron: (03:25:50)
Well, at least in Barbados with a shared corporate office.
Speaker 5: (03:25:55)
Does Dominion use this software?
Colonel Waldron: (03:25:57)
The Dominion software, so where the merger of the DNA kind of is, there’s the licensing agreement, and as a result of a lawsuit, Sequoya voting systems was sold off of SGO and purchased by-
Speaker 5: (03:26:08)
And who owned Sequoia?
Colonel Waldron: (03:26:09)
SGO Smartmatic owned Sequoya. They sold Sequoya voting systems to Dominion voting systems, and they also purchased Premiere as a result of an antitrust. So all of the DNA and the code and the software in these machines are very, very similar. As a matter of fact, there’s testimony on the House floor as late as July of 2019 that decries that we’re actually still using this equipment that is full of holes. One of … So my team is doing analysis all over the country right now. We can’t meet the demand because there’s so much, but there was about a 40-page document with the vulnerabilities that was pulled down off of Stacey Abrams’ website about these systems. Across the party, across the aisle, there have been democratic senators, Senator Klobuchar, Senator Warren, as well as Republicans. So this is an American issue. This is a national security issue. Our voting systems are defined as national critical infrastructure, just as critical as nuclear power plants, just as critical as petrochemical, steel and ports.
Speaker 5: (03:27:40)
What’s fractional voting?
Chair Hall: (03:27:41)
Can I ask? I’m going to ask a question here. So I just wanted to understand why … So when we hear these things, they say in the press, they say this has been debunked, right? I mean, every time I read about this, they say this has been debunked.
Speaker 6: (03:27:59)
It’s fake news.
Chair Hall: (03:28:01)
Please, we don’t want to have to remove anybody, and I’m serious. I mean, we’re not supposed to yell out here. But let me ask you. I mean, when you hear that, why do you think they’re saying that? I mean, because we do hearings like this. I mean, for many people, this is the only time they hear testimony like yours, but why are they saying that it’s debunked? Do you have a theory on that?
Colonel Waldron: (03:28:24)
I have a theory in life and it’s about people and personal behavior. It’s either a variable of competence or a variable of commitment. In this case, they would be either incompetent. They haven’t done the research like I and my team had done. They haven’t looked to the user’s manual of these systems. They haven’t rationally thought that, “Okay, these election votes are updated in real time. How does that happen?” Nobody’s getting from a car in Lansing, Michigan, and driving it to New York to be uploaded at the Rockefeller Center, so these are connected. And actually, in the the operating diagrams of the systems, the high level block diagram, this is Democracy Suite. It shows Democracy Suite, EMS application, and document management server. The Democracy Suite database server, the data center. This is data. This is electronic data. Your ballots are put into the machine and they’re turned from a paper ballot to a ballot image, and the ballot image is data, and the data can be manipulated with something as easy as a USB drive.
Chair Hall: (03:29:43)
Thank you. Representative Riley?
Representative Riley: (03:29:46)
Thank you. So I’m just trying to figure out would not a recount detect if you had a software manipulate the votes? I mean, would wouldn’t that be easily seen?
Colonel Waldron: (03:30:00)
So what we observed and your other witnesses tonight observed is a injection of paper ballots, whether those are accurate or not. You can recount the manual ballots, but unless you did a forensic audit of the ballot itself, you wouldn’t be able to tell if the ballot was fraudulent or pre-printed. We have technology to be able to do that. A gentleman that I’m associated with in Texas, his name is Jovan Pulitzer. He invented the QR code and scanner and scanning capabilities, owns a patent on all that. He’s devised a way to determine fake ballots or ballots who were pre-printed.
Representative Riley: (03:30:49)
But isn’t that another issue altogether? I’m just talking about …
Colonel Waldron: (03:30:52)
This is a multifaceted issue, but yes, the forensics data, if you have access to the software code that was driving the algorithms in these machines, and I say algorithm because the data that’s the raw feed of the data is reported in decimal places. So if you’re tabulating votes, your vote, my vote, Representative Johnson’s votes, well, that’s three votes. This data is reported in three digit fractions. So how is that possible in an additive function? So the software and the code is what we would need, or a qualified forensics team of your choice would need to look at to determine what algorithms were in the USB drives that drive the machines, and the number pattern that we see is that they would pick three to four precincts. They would run the algorithm for X amount of time until they got close to the precinct threshold so it wouldn’t kick off the over-vote situation, and then they would move it to another precinct.
Colonel Waldron: (03:32:01)
So this is a complex issue with injection. In Pennsylvania, we heard a gentlemen who, again, signed an affidavit as a truck driver that he delivered a truckload of ballots to a vacant lot in Pennsylvania from New York, and his assumption was … The ballots were just left there. There was no one there, no one there to sign his bill of lading to give the bill of lading, so the hypothesis or the assumption is that that was used as a staging area for people to go pick up pre-printed ballots to move into the system. For example, what we saw in some of the late absenteeism numbers in Michigan.
Representative Riley: (03:32:50)
Chair Hall: (03:32:51)
Thank you. All right. With that, we’ll move on. Thank you for your testimony today. We appreciate it. And now we’re going to invite up one more person, Monica Palmer, who’s a Wayne County canvasser, if I understand, right. And then we’ll let you testify for a couple minutes, tell your story, and then we’ll let the Trump legal team close after that. So we ran a little long on that first witness, and we wanted to give some deference there because obviously she’d been through a lot and she really shared a very powerful story. And you could tell, I mean, it’s intimidating to come here to the legislature and to deal with what she’s dealt with, but we appreciate that she came to tell her story. We wanted to give her some time. But we wanted to also allow you, Monica, to come in and testify, so when you’re ready, please tell your story and explain why you’re here. Thank you. Make sure you push the red button.
Monica Palmer: (03:34:00)
Thank you, Chairman Hall and members of the committee. I appreciate the opportunity to address you this evening. I am Monica Palmer. I am the chair of the Wayne County Board of Canvassers. As you may be aware, after the primary, we had 76% of the precincts. The absentee precincts in the city of Detroit were unreasonable because they were out of balance without explanation. We had bipartisan support and a request for an investigation by the State Bureau of Elections, and we requested the secretary of state to assist with administering the general election in November in the city of Detroit for the absentees.
Monica Palmer: (03:34:42)
After the primary, when we had the 76% of out of balance precincts, I had people question me, “Monica, is it fraud or is it human error?” And at that point, I didn’t know because I’ve never witnessed the process before. So election night, 9:00 PM, November 3rd, I went down to TCF Center. I was credentialed as a GOP challenger, and I went in to observe the process hoping to see some improvements being made. I did not challenge anything while I was there. I was strictly there to observe. I did note one thing. The ballot containers, the metal boxes that hold the ballots once everything’s sealed up at the end of the evening, the County Board of Canvassers are responsible on an incremental basis to touch and feel and make sure that those ballot containers are secure, and they’re labeled with a sticker that says “This container is certified,” and it’s got the signatures of the board members on it.
Monica Palmer: (03:35:43)
As I was walking through TCF Center, I located five ballot containers that had red “do not use” labels on them. They were damaged. They were new containers that were ordered. They had manufacturing defects. The seal on the welding on the backside was not completed properly, and you could slide paper in and out of the back of the boxes. Those containers that were used with the red labels will not be recounted. The chain of custody has been broken for those boxes. I was at TCF Center for 26 hours straight. I got there 9:00 election night. I left around 11:00 PM Wednesday evening after counting had been completed. They were working on closing up the poll books.
Monica Palmer: (03:36:32)
There’s a lot of other testimony from challengers that can describe the activities that happened in there. I won’t waste your time with that. I want to move on to the canvas. We had process gone through the initial canvas of about 20% of the absentee counting boards and realized that the number of voters in the poll book, so people cast, did not match the number on the tabulator tape, ballots cast. It is the job of the county canvas to correct any mathematical errors to make those two numbers balance or reconcile the difference. The good news here is that the batches of ballots that may have been scanned multiple times, the job of the canvas is to catch that mathematical error and correct it. So if you have a hundred voters, a hundred ballots that were issued and there’s 300 ballots that were tabulated, you count the ballots in the box. It should match the ballots that were issued, a hundred, a hundred. You re-tabulate them, and that’s corrected.
Monica Palmer: (03:37:40)
Things you cannot catch in the ballot in the canvas: you cannot catch date stamps on envelopes. You cannot catch the validity of a voter, whether they’re dead or not. You cannot catch signature verification. Those are things we do not look at within the canvas. Just a little point of reference to help you manage through the details you’re hearing. An observation for TCF Center, in the primary, we had poll workers working long hours. There appeared to be a change in the general election where there were shifts of employees, and I believe that was a positive change, was good to see so you didn’t have people very, very, very tired trying to close these boxes out.
Monica Palmer: (03:38:36)
What I did notice on the night shift, election night, 9:00 PM to 5:00 AM, the next morning, there were 134 accounting boards. They had five workers at each table and supervisors throughout. The majority of that shift, those workers were not processing ballots. They were sitting idle. So as you’re looking forward to legislation and concerns about do we need more time to process these ballots? The time is not involved in actually going through the ballots or scanning them through the tabulators, it’s the adjudication process. The adjudication process is a screen. If there is a ballot that the machine can’t read, two humans have to view that that ballot on a screen and make a determination. That process is the bottleneck in the timeline that it took to get through processing the absentee ballots in Detroit. So as you move forward with potential legislation, maybe you look at some funding sources to get the right amount of equipment to help them get through that.
Monica Palmer: (03:39:47)
Back to the canvas and the numbers not matching. 20% into processing the absentee ballots, we realized we had a large portion that did not match, and it’s standard procedure to contact the clerk when you have that happened to ask if they have any envelopes that may not be scanned, if they have anything stuck in an auxiliary bin, ask them for a corrected list if possible. We did not get corrected statement of voters, so people cast, until 13 days after the election. It was the afternoon the day before certification, when a large black tote was brought into the canvas containing multiple precincts’ new voter lists. Some of those voter lists managed to make the balances work out. At the end of the day, less than 24 hours later, the canvas was given a verbal report for the plus and minus. We were not provided with an executive summary written, even though I requested one. And that oral report, my quick math showed that 71% of the counting boards, and we’ve got to be careful because in the primary we were talking precincts. Now, we’re talking counting boards, which it’s a different math formula. But 71% of those county boards were unexplained without … Excuse me, were unbalanced without explanation. Having less than 24 hours to get corrected voterless and going through 134 accounting boards to make those differences is not a lot of time, and that is why I originally voted no on the certification, because I believe the state needed 10 more days to continue to dig through that to find those explanations. As you continue to move forward through legislation … With the information I was giving, I can’t tell if there was an issue with missing scanning envelopes, if there’s an issue with the voter file, with the poll books, with the supplemental lists, with the unlisted list. I don’t have that information to be able to know to tell you how to fix that, but getting corrected information 13 days after the election is not the way to go about it.
Monica Palmer: (03:42:19)
And one more item to note in the State Board of Canvassers meeting, Daniel Baxter said that they did not issue any revised poll lists. I don’t know if he was misinformed or misspoke, but there were clearly an entire tote of revised lists delivered the day before the certification, and I’m happy to answer any questions. Due to time, if you have additional questions, please reach out to me afterwards.
Chair Hall: (03:42:48)
All right. Thank you, Monica. I heard stories about how you were threatened and bullied and attacked by a lot of these radical left wing people, and so my sympathies for that.
Speaker 6: (03:43:01)
[inaudible 03:43:00] right here.
Chair Hall: (03:43:03)
You have my sympathies for that. I know you’ve been through a lot, and it’s courageous for you to be here and testify today, so thank you with that.
Monica Palmer: (03:43:14)
Chair Hall: (03:43:14)
With that, I’ll go to Representative Webber.
Representative Webber: (03:43:20)
Thank you. Thank you for being here and thank you for your service on the Board of Canvassers. My question is do you have any recommendations for this committee in the legislature with regard to empowering Board of Canvassers to maybe have a more substantial role in the process going forward? I know reading some of the media reports, you seemed kind of frustrated with the limitation of what you could and couldn’t do in the canvas.
Monica Palmer: (03:43:44)
Yeah, that’s an excellent point. The Board of Canvassers across the state of Michigan, most of the other boards and the other counties, the four canvassers are the ones going through every poll book and looking at the number of voters and the number on the tape. Wayne County is huge, and it has different rules because there’s so much work, four people wouldn’t be able to complete it. The county clerk staff is assisting the Wayne County Board of Canvassers, and I’ve only been on the board for two years. I roll up my sleeves and get involved, and I’m going through poll books with staff to help understand the process. I think if I’m going to certify this election, attesting that it’s valid, I need to know what’s going on. My understanding is that Wayne County operating differently has not been involved in the actual processing process that much.
Monica Palmer: (03:44:43)
But in return, I think maybe what you might’ve been asking was more authority for the Board of Canvassers, because we have no control over what the clerk does. We have no control over the secretary of state. We have no authority to demand an audit. We have no authority to tell anyone how to change their processes, but at the end of the day, we’re holding the bag for whatever results come out of the election.
Chair Hall: (03:45:16)
Thank you. Representative Camilleri?
Rep. Camilleri: (03:45:19)
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for your testimony. I also first wanted to say thank you for doing your job and certifying the election. I really do appreciate that. One thing that I would like for us to just clarify here, as we know, the unbalanced precincts are not unique. It’s not unique to this election. It happens in other elections in years past. The rate of unbalanced precincts in Detroit and cities like Lavonia were roughly the same, so why did we have such a focus from your public statements as well as others that you’ve made to the media and at your board of canvassers meeting? Why was the focus specifically on Detroit’s unbalanced precinct and not more so on other cities like the city of Livonia?
Monica Palmer: (03:46:03)
I was not given a written executive summary prior to the meeting. If you watch the Zoom call, staff was listing off communities plus or minus, in or out of balance. They’re referred to Detroit or out of county. Lavonia was specifically brought up because there were some troubles there, but when you’re referencing out of county and Detroit, it’s already separated into two different groups. I was doing the math on fly scribbling and referenced the percentage, comparing it to the primary because we already had identified that there was an issue that we were hoping to see some improvements in.
Monica Palmer: (03:46:51)
The actual motion that came to certify the election, that came with a resolution for an audit, requested an audit of all of Wayne County, all of the unbalanced, unexplained precincts, not just the city of Detroit. It did get heated after the no vote, and there was some hostility from board member comments. There was some pressure from council. I did initially reference Detroit first. A few sentences later, I did bring up Livonia as well. I was not singling out one community. This is about making sure that we have accurate documentation that can be audited and that there’s explanations, and that’s what I was trying to accomplish. Thank you.
Chair Hall: (03:47:40)
I understand like in Lavonia, and this might not be related, but in Lavonia I heard because we had a State House race there that was pretty close, a couple hundred votes. And then what I understand happened is that somehow they can’t recount most of the precincts. Can you explain that?
Monica Palmer: (03:48:02)
Sure. So if you have 103 ballots that are issued, people cast. If you have three individuals who spoil their ballot, they make a mistake and they take it. They say, “I need a new ballot,” so you issue another one. So now you have 106 ballots that have been issued. You only have 103 that are counted, and you have three ballots that are in an envelope for spoiled ballots. 106 does not equal 103, but there are notes in the poll book, and there are spoiled ballots that you can reconcile the difference. They’re out of balance. It’s a normal occurrence. Not a problem. The problem is when you have 106 ballots cast people and you’ve got 135 in your total for the votes for the night, and if there’s no explanation in the poll books how you get there, it’s not recounted and that is a problem.
Monica Palmer: (03:49:03)
And specifically to your point, in Lavonia where you’ve got a State House race, when you have communities that have a high number of precincts that are unexplained and not recountable, it’s going to hurt the recount for your mayor, your city council, the school board members. In Highland Park, the last time we’ve had a recount in there, it was a city council recount, and half of the precincts couldn’t be recounted. We had an entire community in there hoping to see the numbers and make sure it was right. The candidate was distraught when she filed to have all of the precincts recounted and half of them couldn’t be recounted this. We’ve got to figure out how to get it right.
Chair Hall: (03:49:58)
Yeah. I think just for me, that’s always something I’ve found very odd is for many years we have elections and then they say, “Well, we can’t recount Detroit, or we can’t what recount Wayne County, because they say either the boxes are unsealed or the ballots don’t add up.” Was that widespread in Wayne County this time, or was it limited to Lavonia or what?
Monica Palmer: (03:50:27)
Again, if I had a written executive summary that showed me every precinct for the entire county, I could have prepared and highlighted and went, “These 15 communities outside of Detroit all had problems.” I don’t have that info. I still don’t have that report.
Chair Hall: (03:50:43)
Wow. What is being … I mean, In Wayne County, which is where you can speak to, do you know? I mean, why does this sort of thing happen election after election? And maybe it happens elsewhere, but you’re the Wayne County canvasser, so I just want to understand. I mean, as a canvasser, what do you say to the elections people when they tell you this year, again, “The ballot boxes are unsealed. The ballots don’t add up.” What do you say to them, because I can’t figure it out. Why is it always that way?
Speaker 6: (03:51:14)
Chair Hall: (03:51:14)
What do you say to them to improve that?
Speaker 6: (03:51:17)
Chair Hall: (03:51:17)
Please, please, please.
Speaker 6: (03:51:20)
This is a big show. [inaudible 03:51:21].
Chair Hall: (03:51:26)
Please, sir. Please, sir. Please, sir.
Speaker 6: (03:51:29)
These three are being coached on their role of what to say.
Chair Hall: (03:51:30)
Speaker 6: (03:51:30)
They’re not even paying attention [inaudible 03:51:28].
Chair Hall: (03:51:30)
Please, sir. Please, sir.
Speaker 6: (03:51:30)
This is a big smear.
Chair Hall: (03:51:30)
All right. So my question though is on Wayne County and the city of Detroit, I mean, do you hear from them to say what are they going to do to stop this from happening in the future so we can recount these precincts? And there is a trail.
Monica Palmer: (03:51:49)
We made that request after the primary.
Chair Hall: (03:51:52)
And what happened?
Monica Palmer: (03:51:53)
I have not seen a report from the investigation. I saw lots of press releases from Secretary Benson saying that she was going to help with staff, and it did look like there was plenty of staff around TCF Center, so that appeared to be an improvement. I asked for a meeting with Clerk Winfrey prior to the election to try to understand the process a little bit better to see what kind of improvements were being made. I did not receive a meeting with her before the election.
Chair Hall: (03:52:25)
So would you say that these election officials in Wayne County are not following the laws there?
Monica Palmer: (03:52:35)
I can’t say that. I don’t know that to be true.
Chair Hall: (03:52:37)
Okay. But they’re not communicating well. Would that be right to say they’re not communicating what they’re doing to why these problems are still happening with you as a canvasser?
Monica Palmer: (03:52:48)
I have no authority over that position. The clerk is not required to communicate with me.
Chair Hall: (03:52:56)
Yeah. That seems like a problem.
Monica Palmer: (03:53:01)
Chair Hall: (03:53:02)
Sure. Thank you for sharing that. I didn’t know the answer to that. We’ll go now to Representative Riley.
Representative Riley: (03:53:12)
Thank you. When it comes to the precincts that don’t balance, is there a quantity that we know? Is that public knowledge?
Monica Palmer: (03:53:20)
That don’t balance or that don’t balance unexplained?
Representative Riley: (03:53:24)
No, the …
Monica Palmer: (03:53:26)
Because being out of balance, if it’s explained is okay. It’s recountable.
Representative Riley: (03:53:30)
Okay, but do we know the quantity? When something is not balanced, do we know the quantity of votes?
Monica Palmer: (03:53:37)
I believe … I asked for a cumulative total, because you have some that are higher and some that are lower, and the verbal number that was given to me during the canvassers meeting I believe was around 400. But again, if I had a written executive summary that showed me every precinct that was plus or minus, there would be a total at that bottom of the page and we could look at it real easy.
Representative Riley: (03:54:05)
Gotcha. Okay. Thank you.
Monica Palmer: (03:54:06)
Chair Hall: (03:54:09)
Representative CA Johnson.
Representative C.A. Johnson: (03:54:17)
Good afternoon, and thank you for being here, and thank you for what you do, and thank you for your vote.
Chair Hall: (03:54:28)
Please, let’s let her ask questions.
Representative C.A. Johnson: (03:54:31)
Mr. Chair. When we get a chance, I’d like to have this kind of even because we have a Detroiter.
Chair Hall: (03:54:42)
Representative, I think you made that point earlier, and as I said, we’re going to have more hearings, but what is your question?
Representative C.A. Johnson: (03:54:48)
No, I would like to have her address this body. She is a Detroiter.
Chair Hall: (03:54:56)
Okay. We’re going to move on, Representative, if you don’t have a question. I’ll go now to Representative Johnson, Steve Johnson.
Representative Johnson: (03:55:03)
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So you talked about getting a number of revised poll books. Could you explain what that is, because I’m not an elections guy.
Monica Palmer: (03:55:10)
Representative Johnson: (03:55:10)
Explain it to me. Thank you.
Monica Palmer: (03:55:11)
Okay. In your poll book, there is a section that’s the statement of voters. So for the absentees, it will show all the absentee ballots that were requested, issued, and received, and you can see the dates in there for every person, and there’s a total at the bottom. So on election, I believe it was Sunday that the poll books were printed. So all of the ballots that were received by Sunday when they were printed are in this list. There’s a supplemental list for any ballots received after that, because you’ve got ballots coming in on election day while they’re being processed. You add those two together once the polls are closed and you’ve got your total number of ballots received on election day. You add those two numbers together, and that should be the total of ballots that you have sitting here.
Monica Palmer: (03:56:15)
If they don’t match, your phone call is to the clerk and say, “Why don’t they match? Do you have envelopes sitting on your desk that didn’t get scanned?” There is a method of going through the entire pile of envelopes to make sure every single one of them is scanned, and it does take some time. But in order to be able to make the mathematical corrections, how do you know? Is my list of voters rights, or is my number of ballots right? So you try to get, if there’s any updates that need to be made to that list of voters, you try to make sure you’ve got that correct number to start from. Does that help?
Representative Johnson: (03:56:57)
That does help. Now, is it possible for someone to … Let’s say we’re doing investigation audit. Can we see the original poll book as well as the revised version, or is only the revised version out there?
Monica Palmer: (03:57:06)
My understanding is that staff retains the original list and the revised list.
Representative Johnson: (03:57:12)
Okay. Thank you.
Monica Palmer: (03:57:13)
Chair Hall: (03:57:15)
Rep. Legrande: (03:57:18)
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So help me understand this, because I’ve been involved in recounts in my county, and we have exactly … This issue is pretty much universal. Like, it’s a question of ratios change, but nobody has 100% balanced precincts, and we heard testimony in the committee about that previously. My understanding was that you could recount if your tabulated number equals the number of paper ballots you have, not that it has to equal poll book. Am I wrong on that? And if that’s true, then I think you can recount the whole lot.
Rep. Legrande: (03:58:03)
And if that’s true, then I think you can recount a whole lot more than the 71. You were saying 70% of them roughly can’t be recounted?
Rep. Legrande: (03:58:08)
I don’t think that’s right.
My understanding is that the people cast must match the votes cast. And then once you open it up, you count the paper ballots and the paper ballots have to match the ballots cast.
Rep. Legrande: (03:58:26)
Correct. But then that makes that recountable. In other words, if there’s [inaudible 03:58:29] with the pollbook, at that point it doesn’t make that an unreccountable precinct.
But in order to open the seal, my understanding is that they have to match.
Rep. Legrande: (03:58:37)
Oh, okay. That’s not my understanding, but there’s no point in us debating since neither one of us… We would have to appeal to a higher authority on that one.
Chair Hall: (03:58:45)
Rep. Legrande: (03:58:45)
But that’s not my understanding for what it’s worth, Mr. Chair.
Chair Hall: (03:58:48)
Thank you, representative. All right. That’s that’s all the questions we have. So thank you for coming today. Oh, no, representative LaFave. Sorry. We’ve had so many people testify, I have so many tallies, so I missed that one. So representative LaFave, thanks for waiting. Please, when you’re ready, ask your question.
Rep. Lefave: (03:59:07)
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We talk about big boxes, these big metal boxes that had the stamp of approval or not by the board of canvassers. What are these boxes? What are they for? How big are they? This is multiple questions, I’m sorry. Tell me about the boxes, how big they are, how many ballots there are potentially in each one of them and what they’re for.
Okay. So the boxes are about this tall, about this wide. There was a batch of 50 new boxes purchased by the city of Detroit from election source and roughly 30 of those boxes were defective. They’re metal, and there’s two sides that meet along the back and the welds were not done properly. So there’s a gap along the back seam. We rejected about 30 of those. Sometime before the November election, they did bring us some repaired containers and we went through them and then took the red, do not use tags off and put certified labels on those. But if I remember correctly, there were only 24 and I could be off by one or two, 24 that came back repaired. As to how many ballots were in those containers, I would have to ask staff. I would maybe look online. I have the precinct number or the absentee counting board numbers, but I don’t have the associated ballot counts with those counting boards. Does that answer all of your question?
Rep. Lefave: (04:00:48)
Well, I only get one, so I would just like to say, I mean, if you buy 50 boxes and 30 of them are defective, let’s never buy from that company again.
Chair Hall: (04:01:00)
All right. Thank you, Monica. That’s that’s the last question for you. We appreciate you coming to testify. Thank you.
Chair Hall: (04:01:08)
All right. With that, Mr. Giuliani, we’ll let you make any closing remarks you have, and it is an hour over what I said it was going to be, sorry about that, everybody. But we wanted to hear these people. I know that many feel that these people haven’t been heard. And so we wanted to provide an opportunity for people to bring forward their stories and be heard and we’ve tried to do that today, as did the Senate I think yesterday, very well, the Senate oversight committee. But we wanted to offer you an opportunity to speak. And then I will let each member ask you a question. All right? So go ahead.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:01:49)
Mr. Chairman, this represents the affidavits of the witnesses [crosstalk 00:03:56].
Chair Hall: (04:01:57)
Yeah. Make sure that buttons pushed. Thanks. Go ahead.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:02:00)
I’m sorry. This represents the affidavits of the people that we didn’t get a chance to call. There are hundreds of them and they specifically alleged similar acts of fraud. Very similar to the witnesses that you heard. I find it puzzling that there seems to be such confusion about it, maybe because of my background as a prosecutor, it’s pretty obvious to me what happened here. The democratic leader in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, or in Philadelphia, or in Detroit, or in Las Vegas, or in Phoenix, or in Milwaukee, or in Minneapolis, or in Atlanta, didn’t wake up on election morning when all those mail ballots were going to come in and decide, “We’re going to shut out all the Republican poll watchers or as many as we can.” I mean, we’ve been counting absentee ballots forever. I did it myself when I was a young lawyer, republican sit on one side, Democrat sits on the other side.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:03:13)
We don’t have any problem with it. This was uniform shutting out of as many Republicans as possible. In Pennsylvania, 890,000 ballots were cast secretly with no Republican getting a chance to take a look at the ballot. And in Pennsylvania, there are 600,000 more votes counted, mail votes counted than mail ballots they could find. This is a swindle. It’s a con job. It’s a theft of an election. And it was carried out by the same method in the city of Detroit, and with all due respect to Detroit, in several analysis of corrupt cities, my city New York comes ahead of Detroit. So I’m not saying this with any pride, but it happens to be one of the most corrupt cities in the United States on any measure. I just checked online here. It comes in fourth, fifth, third, seventh, eighth, several times, New York comes in ahead. So I wonder why the confusion about what happened?
Rudy Giuliani: (04:04:22)
They stole the election, not the first one they stole. Not the last one they’re going to steal unless we do something about it, but you do something real, not, “Let’s see how are we going to fix it.” You’ve been fixing this for years and it hasn’t gotten fixed. They’ve been stealing elections for years. And this time they got a chance to steal it really big because of the ridiculous mail ballot that was created. Back in 1960, the mayor of Chicago, the most corrupt city in America, by the way, just in case, on all the lists by far, we can all feel better, Chicago is the most corrupt.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:05:05)
He helped to steal the 1960 election by holding back the ballots in Chicago so the Republican ballots would come in and then along with a gentleman named Sam Giancana, they got the ballots they needed to elect their candidate. Two years ago in Florida, the same thing happened in Palm beach and Broward County. It was a two point election, Senate, governor. Palm beach County took two and a half weeks to report. And finally it ended when they caught a truck like the one coming from the Bayport, New York to Philadelphia, they caught a truck in Jacksonville headed to Palm beach, with 100,000 ballots that pretended to be Palm beach ballots, but they were done up in Jacksonville and then they had to end the election and they prosecuted the people in Palm beach.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:05:59)
And remember, this year we had no problem in Florida. I mean, you were counting for an eternity. Florida was over with that night because the governor had the courage to straighten it out. He had the courage to prosecute the people who committed the fraud. You don’t end fraud by prospective measures to deal with fraud. You know how you end fraud? You put criminals in jail. That’s how you add fraud. You have the courage to say, “That certification that was done by your state is a complete phony. It’s a false statement made to the United States government.” Those are prosecutable, by the way. That’s not the vote by any means in Michigan. That’s not the vote in Michigan. I don’t know what the vote in Michigan is, but it’s at least three or 400,000 votes off from what the real vote in Michigan is. And you heard the anger and the upset of your citizens. They seem to have more passion about it than you do.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:07:09)
They figured out what happens because they live on the street. They know what happens in Detroit. Don’t scratch your head about what happens in Detroit. [crosstalk 04:07:20] They steal elections in Detroit.
Chair Hall: (04:07:22)
Representative, you’ll have an opportunity to ask a question.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:07:23)
And they seel elections in New York, and they steal elections in Boston, and they steal elections in Philadelphia. And the Democrats were smart enough to pick 10 corrupt cities to play their game out, 10 cities in which they could get away with it, 10 cities in which they could go into court and find a hack judge that will decide anything they want. So, I mean, we can live in this strange world all we want, but we’re getting at the point where our freedoms are beginning to be eroded. Our right of free speech has been eroded substantially by the censorship imposed by big tech, big media, big corporations, and the Democrat party.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:08:05)
Our right of freedom of religion with the ridiculous dictatorial way in which the COVID regulations are imposed on us like they liked to be dictators, these Democrat governors. They’ve taken away our right to the freedom of religion. Those are basically the two reasons we founded this country. Oh, by the way, there was a third, the right to freely and honestly elect our government. And they’ve taken that away from us too. It should not go without notice and you should spend time taking a look at Pennsylvania, look at Philadelphia, look at Pittsburgh, look at how eerily similar it is to what these people testify to. Read the rest of these and see that there are hundreds of people that back them up. That election center in Detroit was a disgrace. You should be ashamed of it as citizens of Michigan, I would be ashamed of it if it was in New York and it could easily be in New York.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:09:04)
And I would do everything in my power to make sure it never happened again. And I would never certify an election or have my name associated with anything that was false. Now, it is your responsibility to do that. Not the governor, not the secretary of state. You were given that responsibility by our founding fathers. They decided who would be the final arbiter, who should overlook a presidential election. And in article two, section one, clause two, the power is given to you. In the MacPherson case at 1892, United States Supreme Court made clear that you can take that power back any time you want to. Anytime. You can take it back tonight. You can take it back the day before the electrics go down to Washington. You can take it back anytime you want. And in case you think it’s old law, it was reiterated in Bush V Gore. You have the right to take it back.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:10:01)
You are the final arbiter of how honest or not your election is in your state and it’s your responsibility to stand up to that. And all I can tell you is we let them get away with this, I don’t know what happens after this. This was a concerted plan to fix this election. There’s no way that Donald Trump was ahead by 800,000 votes going to bed at night, that he was ahead here by 300,000 votes, that he was ahead in Wisconsin by 400,000 votes, that he was ahead in every state that over a four or five day period with this ridiculously corrupt system of counting, they turned around with ballots coming in the back door. Ballots being driven down from New York. There’s no way that this wasn’t stolen and what it takes is courage. Courage not to be afraid of what’s happened to these poor people.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:11:09)
They’ve got guts to stand up to what the Democrats do to them. And it’s not just the wild and crazy left wing Democrats who do it. They do it as a way of bullying us. You can see their behavior in this hearing. I can see the difference in behavior between two sides. Maybe sometimes we’re too nice. Maybe sometimes we’re too decent Well, maybe we shouldn’t change, but one thing we should have is we have the ability to defend ourselves and not let our people get kicked around the way those Republicans were kicked around. They wouldn’t let it happen, and we shouldn’t let it happen.
Chair Hall: (04:11:47)
Thank you, Mr. Mayor. And I asked the crowd, let’s be respectful. I I think one thing I’ve made-
Speaker 7: (04:11:59)
No respect [inaudible 00:13:59]. No respect for [inaudible 04:12:02].
Chair Hall: (04:12:01)
Sir. Please, sir. Your out of line. Please, we’re having a legislative hearing here. So, I’ve said all members of this committee if they wish, they can ask a question, I hope we’re respectful about that. So with that, I’ll allow Representative LaGrand.
Speaker 8: (04:12:19)
I guess they’re going to ask [inaudible 04:12:20].
Rep. Legrande: (04:12:23)
So Mr. Giuliani, I really just have one question for you. We heard testimony tonight that you got an affidavit from one of these witnesses on November eight, a witness who talked about tens of thousands of ballots being riffed through a machine. We had another witness who talked about ballots being double counted, who said that her affidavit dates back to November 3rd. You opened your statement, you made in your opening statement, you referenced 700,000 fraudulent ballots in Detroit, which is problematic given that there are only 250,000 counted. My question is, given that we have paper ballots in Michigan. Why on earth did you not ask for a recount?
Rudy Giuliani: (04:13:11)
Well, there’d be no reason to ask for a recount because you’d just recount the same fraudulent ballots. Once you have separated the envelope from the absentee ballot or mail in ballot, you are forever unable to audit them. That’s the reason why it is so critical that they be inspected. That’s the reason why from time immemorial, that’s been done and honored by both political parties and honored in the breach by your political party this time nationwide. [crosstalk 04:13:47] When they recounted in Atlanta, they just recounted all of the same fraudulent ballots. There’s no way to trace those ballots. And that’s why the inspection is so critical. And that’s why… [crosstalk 04:14:00] Please don’t. I don’t need help.
Chair Hall: (04:14:02)
Please, sir, let’s allow the conversation. Let’s stop yelling in the crowd. Thank you.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:14:07)
And the reality is if your political party had not bullied, pushed people around, intimidated people and stopped them from doing their job as inspectors, this would not have happened.
Chair Hall: (04:14:20)
Thank you. Representative
Darrin Camilleri : (04:14:22)
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Giuliani, this committee heard testimony from a bipartisan group of County clerks in Michigan, one was a Democrat and two Republicans. They testified that they found no evidence whatsoever of widespread irregularities in this election. And they lauded the municipal clerks and their teams who run elections in Michigan for their tireless effort and commitment to free, fair and safe elections. Your team has now lost 39 court cases in the aftermath of the election with judges ruling that there’s inadequate evidence to support the sweeping claims that you were making and repeating here tonight. And the unprecedented relief that you are seeking.
Darrin Camilleri : (04:14:57)
Yesterday, we learned that US Attorney General William Barr has similarly found no evidence whatsoever of widespread irregularities that are worth investigating. If our local clerks, state, and federal judges across the country and the highest ranking law enforcement official in the United States can not find any substance to or any merit in any of your arguments, why should we? Why should we sit here in this show that you are partaking in and taking around the country if no one has found any evidence whatsoever of any of your wrongdoing and why should we not believe the reported attempts of you to try to seek a pardon from the president?
Rudy Giuliani: (04:15:35)
What was the last part?
Chair Hall: (04:15:37)
That last part is not [crosstalk 04:15:38].
Darrin Camilleri : (04:15:38)
You’re attempting to seek a pardon, so why is this not a part of that?
Chair Hall: (04:15:41)
Rudy Giuliani: (04:15:43)
I will ask that he be disciplined for that.
Chair Hall: (04:15:47)
Hold on, let’s hold it-
Rudy Giuliani: (04:15:49)
First of all what he says is untrue. Second, that is a defamation of my professional character. Do you allow that? Do you allow that to happen in your legislature?
Darrin Camilleri : (04:16:00)
I said reported.
Chair Hall: (04:16:01)
As I said, representative, let’s keep it limited to the germane issue here.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:16:06)
Just for the record-
Chair Hall: (04:16:07)
Mr. Giuliani. Let me ask the question.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:16:08)
Just for the record, we haven’t lost 39 cases, we’ve only brought three. So you’re wrong about that. Second, the reason why people are reaching those conclusions is because like you, they don’t have the discipline. maybe the intelligence, I don’t know, to read through this, to read this and to read 20 more like it. You can’t tell me there’s no evidence when I have a couple of thousand affidavits from people. You can’t tell me that your credibility is better than the credibility of those people. They swore under oath, you didn’t. And you seem very, very free to lie.
Darrin Camilleri : (04:16:46)
Mr. Giuliani, I’m just hoping-
Chair Hall: (04:16:48)
Representative, do you have a point of order?
Darrin Camilleri : (04:16:49)
I’m just hoping to get an answer to the other questions about Mr. Barr and others who have disproven a lot of [crosstalk 04:16:54].
Chair Hall: (04:16:53)
Representative, do you have a point of order?
Rudy Giuliani: (04:16:54)
I gave you the answer. The answer that I gave you is they didn’t bother to interview a single witness. Just like you, they don’t want to know the truth. Well, you probably know the truth. I’m worried about they’re not wanting to know the truth.
Chair Hall: (04:17:07)
Thank you. Representative CA Johnson.
C.A. Johnson: (04:17:15)
Well, I want to take the time to thank everybody and to thank you, Mr. Giuliani, and I will take the time to just give some quotes that some of my constituents made today. Our elected officials should be condemning-
Chair Hall: (04:17:35)
Pose your question, representative.
C.A. Johnson: (04:17:37)
Chair Hall: (04:17:38)
I’m asking you what is your question.
C.A. Johnson: (04:17:42)
No, I don’t have a question. I would like to-
Chair Hall: (04:17:42)
If you don’t have a question, then we’re going to move on, representative.
C.A. Johnson: (04:17:44)
No, that is not fair, sir. Because our elected officials should be condemning [crosstalk 00:19:50].
Chair Hall: (04:17:45)
Representative Riley, we can move on. I’m sorry, you’re out of order representative. You’re out of order. If you don’t have a question you’re out of order. Representative you’re out of order.
C.A. Johnson: (04:18:00)
They should be focused on fighting COVID not the votes.
Chair Hall: (04:18:01)
You’re our of order, representative. You’re out of order, ma’am. You’re out of order, representative. Representative Riley.
Steve Riley: (04:18:12)
Thank you. Mr. Giuliani. So I just wanted to make sure that you are aware that there was a real concern before this election by many individuals, that there was going to be some crimes committed. And I think one of the ways that we saw that is when we realized that the training that was put on really revealed that it was going to be intentional to mislead some of the poll workers, et cetera, on what to do in the situations that were coming up.
Steve Riley: (04:18:43)
So prior to the election, we saw the training, there was some individuals that made it public that they had gone to some of the trainings and reported back. Actually had evidenced through recording the trainings and said, “These people are going to… This is not right.” And so it was not until that came out, and a suit came out that was taken to the court of claims, where they had to rule on this to say, “Yeah, you have to allow people to come up and do your job and get within six feet to do your job as a pole challenger.”
Steve Riley: (04:19:21)
It wasn’t until that court case had happened. I also submitted an investigation, asked for an investigation from the secretary of state prior to the election on this very thing. So I think there were some crimes committed when it comes to impeding what a challenger’s role is. I believe it’s a felony in the state to do that, and we have a responsibility I believe to do that. So I just wanted to make sure you’re aware that we saw this coming and there was an effort to head this off.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:19:52)
Well, I appreciate that. Only thing I would say is, I believe it’s much worse than you realized it was going to be, and it is not confined by any means to Michigan. I mean, this is what you are describing, cutting off Republican inspectors happened in 10 cities, all Democrat control cities, all cities with a history of corruption. And in numbers, they’re not insignificant. In numbers like the hundreds of thousands, enough to change the election.
Chair Hall: (04:20:25)
All right. And I guess representative, Steve Johnson.
Steve Johnson: (04:20:31)
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Mr. Giuliani, for being here today. The purpose of this committee, is a search for truth. Whether you like it or not, the goal here is truth. What really happened? In that search for truth are things maybe we aren’t happy with, maybe things that we are happy with. It’s led me to a couple understandings here. They’re going to probably make people on both sides angry. Number one, starting with Dominion, people that are essentially running our election refusing to come before this committee and explain themselves. They are essentially a government contractor. We pay them, I assume, millions of dollars, and yet they will not come before this committee to answer tough questions. I think at the very least their contracts should be pulled going forward. However, let me continue.
Steve Johnson: (04:21:27)
We can sit here and we can talk all day long about Dominion, about whether it’s accurate, whether there’s fraud, whether they’re cheating, whether there’s foreign influence and your word is good as mine. The only way we can actually know for sure whether Dominion actually changed the results of the election is through a hand recount. Now I understand a hand recount would not-
Chair Hall: (04:21:52)
Let’s let Representative Johnson speak, please.
Steve Johnson: (04:21:56)
I understand that a representative would not find dead people voting, would not find maybe illegal people voting, but a hand recount would determine if 20 votes went in for someone and the machine said 25 votes came out a hand. A hand recount would identify that, and yet 48 hours, you have 48 hours after the vote certification to request the recount, and we never got that. So instead, what we hear is a lot of talk, a lot of thoughts, a lot of allegations, but we had one opportunity to actually do this and the Trump campaign did not make that request. That’s number one.
Steve Johnson: (04:22:32)
Moving to Detroit, which is where a lot of this has been centered and rightfully so. What we saw at the TCF center was absolutely unacceptable. When you see where they are purposely violating a court order regarding the six foot rule, a purposeful violation, this isn’t some old court order. This was right before the election. They knew darn well about that court order and they purposely violated that. Chain of custody issues. Absolutely huge. They have boxes that are open with ballots. Shocking. It’s a box. You can’t find a box that actually does its job? And then when you see, and there’s video proof of this, not only just the testimony today, but you can see it online, where when Republicans were being kicked out, they were being cheered. People were cheering when Republicans were being kicked out and Republicans were not being let in to fill those spots.
Steve Johnson: (04:23:32)
When you see the number of out of balance precincts, out of balance counting boards, not just this election, but previous elections as well in the city of Detroit. The citizens of Detroit deserve better. I quite frankly believe their city clerk should resign based off of their-
Chair Hall: (04:23:47)
Representative, you need to ask your question.
Steve Johnson: (04:23:49)
I’m going to ask my question right here.
Chair Hall: (04:23:50)
Steve Johnson: (04:23:51)
However, looking at the votes in Detroit, the votes that are reported, 2016, Hillary Clinton received 234, 871 votes. Biden this year in a high record turnout year, 233,908. That means Biden received 1000 less votes than Hillary Clinton, one of the most despised candidates of all time. Trump 2016, 7,682 votes, 2020, 12,654, a 5,000 vote increase. So to Mr. Giuliani, my question to you is looking at all of the issues with Detroit, and there are a lot of them, how can we still justify that there was that mass cheating when still Trump’s numbers increased by net 5% versus the years before? If someone were cheating, would those numbers not go the exact opposite direction?
Rudy Giuliani: (04:24:50)
No. He might’ve increased by 10% if it were a legitimate vote. I mean, he was ahead here by 300,000 votes, which was a massive surprise. Also, let me go back to why we didn’t ask for a recount. Doing a recount of the machines is not going to give us anything, but the same false results. What we need is a forensic examination of the machines. Number two, I don’t know how much the machines are going to yield anyway. This election was stolen by mail-in ballots. Those are the ballots that were stuck in the machine eight times, nine times, 10 times. Look at the numbers. I mean, Biden… I’m guessing now, I’ve forgotten the numbers here, but Biden got 80% of the mail in ballot vote and Trump got 75% of the election day vote.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:25:47)
So we’re not going to quarrel with the election day vote. The election day vote is not what stole the election from us. It’s the mail ballots. The ones that they wouldn’t allow us to inspect. I mean, do you really think, representatives, that they shut us out from inspecting the ballots because they were handling the ballots honestly? I mean do you really think they en mass pushed us out, put us in corrals, pushed us away, went to court to fight whether or not we can be close to the ballots. You think they did that because they were doing a very careful, honest vote? I doubt it.
Steve Johnson: (04:26:24)
I’ve been very clear that I think there was some major issues there, but when you talk about the-
Chair Hall: (04:26:27)
Can you let him answer the question.
Steve Johnson: (04:26:27)
Yes, Mr. Chair.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:26:30)
Yeah. But the major issues when you look at the numbers, they’re astounding. Hundreds of thousands of votes were counted there. And I have no idea what a re canvassing of the machines would do for us. A forensic examination of the machines might do something. And in fact, we would like to have the opportunity to look at the rest of those machines in Michigan. I don’t know why you’re not looking at them. I mean, whatever you want to say about Dominion, read its history. Read the history of Dominion, and you’ll get an idea of what a crooked company it is. Which maybe is the reason they don’t want to show up here. They really don’t want to tell you that the two of them that own it are Venezuelans and they brought the two Smartmatic owners, they brought the two guys who are Canadians down to meet Chavez just two years ago.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:27:28)
They don’t want to tell you that. They don’t want to tell you about the five elections in South America that they fixed. Just read it, just look it up. Now, I don’t know if that really made the difference in the election. I’m not sure. But I do know their plan was to steal this election based on this massive mail in vote, which by the way, we have for 20 years been warned against. For 20 years people wiser than us have said… Justice Souter, President Carter, Secretary Baker, Columbia University. You read reports on what is the most dangerous form of voting? What form of voting can be manipulated and where can you carry out fraud the most? And it’s mail in ballots and we were stupid enough to go to mail in ballots.
Chair Hall: (04:28:22)
All right. Representative LaFave.
Rep. Lefave: (04:28:25)
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, attorney Jenna Ellis, Mayor Giuliani, all of the witnesses, committee members, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate everybody coming today. I think this was helpful. I’ve personally got a lot of things that are troubling as well. But my only question for this last witnesses is, what specifically do you want us to do? Is it you’re coming here today and saying that based on all of these concerning issues, you want the state house and senate of Michigan to hand the president the 16 electoral votes for Michigan? Is that what your ask is today?
Rudy Giuliani: (04:29:13)
Nope. I didn’t ask that. I asked that you take back your power under article two, section one, cause two of the Constitution. That you take back that power and that you spend the time, not just to listen to… You shouldn’t decide anything based on what I gave you. It’s just a sample. It’s just a sample of things. There’s a plethora of evidence that you can go through that will convince you that this election was stolen. I would ask you to go through that. Don’t let it just get taken from us and then we’ll find out a year from now what the real plot was.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:29:59)
And take a look to some extent of what happened in other states, because the fact that it’s so similar in other states gives you a sense that what we’re dealing with here was a plan, not just an accidental, “Oh gosh, Detroit stole an election, or Chicago stolen election, or New York stolen election.” But I think you have a responsibility to go into session, take back your… Look, the people who certify your election, what are they worth?
Speaker 9: (04:30:29)
Can’t trust them.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:30:30)
I wouldn’t put my name on that piece of paper. Not worth any of it. The piece of paper is a lie. We all know it’s a lie. We know the figures there aren’t correct. They’re such wonderful public servants they put their name on a lie. Why don’t you spend the time to find out what the right numbers should be?
Rep. Lefave: (04:30:48)
I guess Mr. Mayor, my problem is we have these certifiers who I think, and maybe I’m wrong, but at least in one particular example, they didn’t feel confident. They certified the vote and now you’re ask to the legislature is to take… and if I’m wrong again, tell me. To take evidence and put my name to it and say that this is definitely what happened. Somebody won. I assume it wasn’t Kanye West. I don’t know, but to figure it out and you want us to make the decision and then put our stamp of approval on it. Is that what you’re asking?
Rudy Giuliani: (04:31:29)
No, I don’t want you to do it. The Constitution of the United States says you should do it.
Chair Hall: (04:31:34)
All right. That’s it.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:31:34)
I don’t want you to do it.
Chair Hall: (04:31:38)
Rudy Giuliani: (04:31:39)
Read the [inaudible 04:31:40] papers, it given to you as the ultimate punnery power, because the other body closest to the people and therefore the body that they believe could be most trusted to protect the people.
Rep. Lefave: (04:31:55)
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:31:56)
Not the bureaucrats who made that decision.
Rep. Lefave: (04:31:58)
Chair Hall: (04:31:59)
Representative C.A. Johnson. Are you willing to make a question?
C.A. Johnson: (04:32:02)
I have a quick question.
Chair Hall: (04:32:03)
Chair Hall: (04:32:03)
… C.A. Johnson. Are you willing to make a question?
C.A. Johnson: (04:32:04)
I have a quick question, very quick.
Chair Hall: (04:32:06)
C.A. Johnson: (04:32:07)
Mr. Giuliani. Hi again.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:32:11)
C.A. Johnson: (04:32:13)
Do you think that both you and the President are honest men?
Jenna Ellis: (04:32:17)
Rudy Giuliani: (04:32:19)
Do I really have to answer that question?
C.A. Johnson: (04:32:20)
Chair Hall: (04:32:20)
Representative C.A. Johnson. Representative-
C.A. Johnson: (04:32:24)
Why not answer it?
Chair Hall: (04:32:25)
Representative. Do you have a point of order?
C.A. Johnson: (04:32:27)
I’m asking the question.
Jenna Ellis: (04:32:29)
Shame on you.
Chair Hall: (04:32:29)
Representative, we’re not going to [crosstalk 04:32:36] a question related to the election.
C.A. Johnson: (04:32:35)
I’m asking the question. Do you consider yourself, Mr. Giuliani, you and the President as honest men?
Chair Hall: (04:32:37)
Representative. Representative, you’re out of order. Out of order. Representative, you’re out of order. Representative, if you want to ask a question about the election-
C.A. Johnson: (04:32:45)
I have a question.
Chair Hall: (04:32:46)
You can ask the question, [crosstalk 04:32:48] but that is not about the election. So, do you have a question about the election, Representative?
C.A. Johnson: (04:32:55)
I can’t, because this is a show. No, I just can’t. And, do [crosstalk 04:33:02]
Chair Hall: (04:33:02)
Representative, do you have [inaudible 04:33:04] Hold on, Representative.
C.A. Johnson: (04:33:06)
Do you really believe-
Chair Hall: (04:33:06)
Representative, do you have a question about the election?
C.A. Johnson: (04:33:08)
Chair Hall: (04:33:08)
All right. Then I’ll turn your mic on, ask the question about the election.
C.A. Johnson: (04:33:10)
Mr. Giuliani. Oh, did you turn it off?
Chair Hall: (04:33:15)
If you have a question about the election, ask it.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:33:17)
I can hear you.
C.A. Johnson: (04:33:19)
Mr. Giuliani, do you believe that the citizens of Detroit, those who have voted, feel like what you’re doing today is disenfranchising or attempting to disenfranchise the citizens of Detroit?
It’s the state of Michigan.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:33:40)
Just the opposite. I would say that trying to separate-
Chair Hall: (04:33:44)
Let him answer.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:33:45)
… the honest from the dishonest vote is saving the franchise because every dishonest vote deprives an honest person of their vote.
C.A. Johnson: (04:33:54)
I agree. I absolutely agree.
Chair Hall: (04:33:59)
Representative, let’s let him answer the question.
C.A. Johnson: (04:34:00)
Yeah, he just did.
Chair Hall: (04:34:01)
Okay. Then, I think-
C.A. Johnson: (04:34:04)
Yeah, he just did. And so, I agree with you. Dishonesty is dishonesty, right? Right.
Chair Hall: (04:34:10)
Thank you, representative. All right.
You’re good at it.
Chair Hall: (04:34:15)
Mr. Giuliani, I think that’s the questions for you. I know Jenna Ellis asked to say something. I’m not sure what, but what is it you wanted to say? You have some kind of closing statement?
Jenna Ellis: (04:34:28)
Thank you. So, and I appreciate all of the members of the panel. And typically what I’ve done before to other states is to explain the Constitution and to explain your duty. However, in this particular legislature, it’s very apparent that the circus has only been from one side. The witnesses that have appeared before you today have done so as honest, sincere, and forthright citizens bringing concerns to you. And when you are saying that there are concerns but only looking forward, you’re not doing your constitutionally obligated and mandated duty.
Jenna Ellis: (04:35:15)
And what we’re here to do today is to present to you the evidence that we’ve been able to do in the last four hours. Mayor Giuliani is very correct that this is only a sample. But no honest person can hear these citizens of your own state today, look at what happened in Wayne County with the bullying of the two GOP Board of Canvassers, when they didn’t want to certify the election, and can let this proceed.
Jenna Ellis: (04:35:44)
What the Constitution obligates you to do is to take back your plenary power because the certification was false, clearly. And you can do that and you should do that because you have an obligation as state legislators.
Jenna Ellis: (04:36:01)
Now, normally when I’ve testified in front of state legislators, it’s about policy and it’s about legislation. This isn’t about policy. It’s not about politics. It’s not about Democrat versus Republican. It’s not even about President Trump versus Joe Biden. This is about election integrity. This is about making sure that the people of the State of Michigan are not disenfranchised based on fraud and corruption.
Jenna Ellis: (04:36:25)
That’s the reason that we are here. And I asked you at the very beginning to put aside your party and your preconceptions to listen honestly to the people who have appeared before you. Now I’ve been a part of many court trials and you as the fact finders, of course, can determine and assess their credibility. They have sworn affidavits that they all indicated to you, they swore under penalty of perjury. That’s actually a very big deal for a citizen to come forward and do that. They’re doing this because they’re patriots and because America cannot function and exist without free and fair elections. Our founders understood that and that’s why they obligated you to be the last guardians of that process. What we’re asking you to do is not something that is unheard of. It’s not even something that hasn’t been contemplated by our United States Supreme Court, which held in that 1892 case that was then sided favorably in Bush v. Gore. That this is your plenary, meaning absolute, power.
Jenna Ellis: (04:37:37)
And if you, after an investigation, find that you want to certify the results that is your prerogative. What we asked initially in the filing of our lawsuits which, Representative, there were only three initially. It’s not true that there were 39. And we would appreciate the facts being straight.
Representative 1: (04:37:59)
There are 39, thank you.
Jenna Ellis: (04:38:00)
Not from the Trump campaign.
Chair Hall: (04:38:01)
Hey, Representative. Let’s continue.
Jenna Ellis: (04:38:03)
Not from the Trump campaign. And other concerned parties have certainly brought forward lawsuits for election integrity on their own, and we may have similar interests, but the campaign doesn’t represent their lawsuits.
Jenna Ellis: (04:38:16)
But what we asked initially was to simply stop the certification because we had significant, not just concern, but actual evidence. And what you’ve heard today is not just a speculation, it’s not just concern, it’s not a conspiracy theory. It’s people who were there, who were eyewitnesses, who are telling you what they saw.
Jenna Ellis: (04:38:41)
This was election officials who have violated the laws of your state that you, as the General Assembly, passed in order to preserve election integrity. There are two different tracks. You have the laws of the state that election officials on the ground are supposed to adhere to. And then you have the issue with Dominion. Now, absolutely, the mayor is right that you need to audit those machines. But you have more than enough just based on the election official, absolute fraud, absolutely ignoring the laws of this general assembly, the laws of your state to reclaim your authority. That is your duty. It’s your constitutional obligation. And that’s why we are in front of you.
Jenna Ellis: (04:39:26)
So I’m happy to answer any questions on the constitutionality on anything, but I would simply urge you that this is not about policy. It’s not about politics. It’s not about Democrats versus Republicans. This is about making sure that we are not the generation that is the weakest link in America that does not preserve and protect our free and fair elections and our right to select our Commander in Chief into the next generation. That’s what this is about. Thank you.
Chair Hall: (04:39:57)
All right, thank you. Are there any questions? Questions down here for-
C.A. Johnson: (04:40:03)
Just one, just one.
Chair Hall: (04:40:04)
Representative C.A. Johnson.
C.A. Johnson: (04:40:06)
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And thank you so much for being here and I agree with you too. It should be about us electing our own elected officials. And wouldn’t you agree that we have selected, elected our own elected official? And are you saying that some of us, our votes don’t count?
Jenna Ellis: (04:40:28)
Not at all, Madame Representative. The point is that when so much fraud dilutes the vote of the people that you serve and your constituents, then it’s irredeemably compromised. And you may like the outcome of this fraud-
Jenna Ellis: (04:40:45)
… but imagine if there were witnesses that were testifying to the exact same thing and the outcome had been for President Trump.
Jenna Ellis: (04:40:54)
The point is that corruption is corruption and it dilutes the vote and that cannot stand. And so no, your state has not actually selected anyone for President. In fact, the representative said, “Kanye, maybe,” he doesn’t know. I think that’s where everyone is at. Where we don’t know. And what we do know is that there has been a massive amount of fraud, irregularities, and-
C.A. Johnson: (04:41:23)
Jenna Ellis: (04:41:25)
I’m still finishing. Thank you.
Jenna Ellis: (04:41:27)
There have been a massive amount of irregularities. There have been ignorance and complete disregard for the law of the State of Michigan. And so when it is so irredeemably compromised, when you have something like what’s happened in Wayne County, you have the intimidation of officials who are trying to do the right thing, intimidation even here in this committee of witnesses, that is unacceptable. And you should reclaim your constitutionally obligated authority so that you can make sure that the person that you send your delegates for genuinely reflects your constituency. And I hope that your constituency would demand and require that of you.
Chair Hall: (04:42:08)
All right. Thank you. I don’t see any other questions. So thank you for your testimony.
Rudy Giuliani: (04:42:16)
Thank you very much.
Jenna Ellis: (04:42:16)
Chair Hall: (04:42:17)
Thank you, Mr. Mayor, too. And appreciate everyone who testified here today. We’re grateful for that. I know a lot of stories were told here today, brave people who came forward about what they experienced. Can we wait until after the hearings over please, people?
Chair Hall: (04:42:37)
So we’ve heard a lot of brave people give stories today that are difficult for them to tell. And so we’re grateful for that. And it’s important to listen. It’s important to listen to these stories. It’s important to allow people to present what they’ve heard and what they’ve seen. And we’ve allowed clerks to testify here, and there’ll be more people who testify on other days too. But everyone should be heard and people shouldn’t be heard and bullied. There shouldn’t be bullying going on.
Chair Hall: (04:43:09)
I thought this was important to bring the mayor here, to hear his story, to hear the story of all these people across Michigan who have these stories of fraud. And we had to cut some of them off because it went long. But I’ll also say, I did think it was important to have a hearing with Republicans and Democrats, where we could have a debate and tough questions should be asked and could be asked.
Chair Hall: (04:43:35)
I will note though, that I was disappointed today because I felt that there were opportunities to ask goof questions, and those were not taken. Instead, we heard a lot of interjections, a lot of attacks, a lot of just partisan rhetoric. And I was disappointed about that today. And I apologize to those witnesses who had to deal with that. That wasn’t fair.
Chair Hall: (04:44:02)
But ultimately I appreciate everyone going through that and telling their story. We wanted both sides to be heard. And I’m disappointed. I feel like we need Dominion to come in and testify-
Yeah. Demand it.
Chair Hall: (04:44:16)
… in order to know more about this system. And we’ll continue to work toward that because we have a lot of questions for them.
Chair Hall: (04:44:23)
So with that, Mr. Mayor, thank you. Thank you, Jenna. And thank you to all the witnesses today. So with that, seeing no further business before the Committee, the Committee will stand adjourned.